Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion
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The Alice Network
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The Alice Network by Kate Quinn - VBC Nov 2018
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I'll take this opportunity to mention that one thing I really liked about this book was the story of the WWI spy ring (a period that is of special interest to this group), which is based on a true story. I found it amazing what those women had to do and what they survived.
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Yeah, I think it's time, LOL...
The book is excellent and I am looking forward to reading others’ thoughts.
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I really liked it too, Susan.
Thanks Lenore for the introduction. I'll start the book tonight.
I'm on the waiting list at my library too. Crossing my fingers that it comes in soon. Couldn't get the last couple of selections.....
Too early for anything that might be a spoiler, but if you’re past the first couple of chapters you know that Eve has consented to help Charlie. Given Eve’s original belligerence, why do you think she’s changed her mind?
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Well, other than the fact that Eve is not quite as cynical as she presents herself to be, I think she still has a sense of adventure and can't resist the opportunity to have another one!
Given Eve’s original belligerence, why do you think ..."1, She sobered up
2. She is seeking revenge
3. She is trying to put her past ghosts to bed
4. She is trying to crawl out of the pit she is in
I find I enjoy Eve's story much more than Charlie's. Does anyone else feel that way?
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I was fascinated by the WWI portion - I'm interested in that period, anyway, but other than Mata Hari I wasn't aware that there were female spies during that period or what they went through. And the fact that "Alice" was a real person made it all the more interesting to me.
Sara wrote: "I find I enjoy Eve's story much more than Charlie's. Does anyone else feel that way?"Enjoying both equally. It’s interesting to see how the stories are progressing in parallel 30 odd years apart.
I expect I'm a minority of one- but as I listen (and I'm only starting the 3rd of 12 cd's of the audiobook) - I think I'd prefer if the story were told as it happened- Eve's story first, then Charlie's early story & then from the time they meet. Maybe it would be different if I were reading-reading rather than listening. I also admit to finding Charlie obnoxious, including her behavior (attempted seduction) with Finn? I'm not sure I'd want to help someone who acts like a spoiled brat.
Eve must have good reasons for her behavior.
Also, to Lenore's question
"Given Eve’s original belligerence, why do you think she’s changed her mind?" I think she suspected that Rose was also a spy. I certainly could be wrong - but why else would Eve consent to help?
I'll keep reading while I wait & hope for the best possible results from today's election.
Dena wrote: "I also admit to finding Charlie obnoxious, including her behavior (attempted seduction) with Finn? I'm not sure I'd want to help someone who acts like a spoiled brat."Amen! My own notes, as I was reading this book, say "Actually, I'm discovering that I hate Charlie, who's an idiot." Among other things, I found it simply incredible that ANY college girl, even in the 1940s, was allowing her mother to pick out her clothes. But I also thought she seemed remarkably self-centered and dense.
In fact, while I'm ranting here, I found the sex scenes between Charlie and Finn and between Eve and Cameron "off" in some way -- just not very believable. Did anyone else feel that way? I think the book would have been a lot better had they just been omitted. Could Finn and Charlie not have forged a friendship and then a romance without all that? Eve's and Cameron's connection was plenty clear and poignant without the peculiar encounter that seemed contrary to the nature of both of them.
And finally, It's November 10! Restrictions on spoilers are off, so SPOIL AWAY!
I had a nightmare two nights ago and wasn't sure I could continue reading. So far, so good. Almost half done but it's so intense.
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Amen! My own no..."
I guess I had a different reaction to Charlie - I think she is a young woman who needs to grow up, but in those immediate post-war years it wasn't unusual to women to be infantilized in some fashion. "Girls" were meant to go straight from their father's house to a husband's, and a mother's chief goal was to see her daughter appropriately married. Women really were put back in their place after having done amazing things in WWII! As to a mother picking out her daughter's clothes, that wasn't unusual then in certain classes. I had an older friend who used to talk about how frustrated her mother was trying to "dress" her, because she was "tall and plain" as opposed to her pretty blond sister. And this was when the girls were teenagers. It was a different age.
Merrily wrote: "Lenore wrote: "Dena wrote: "I also admit to finding Charlie obnoxious, including her behavior (attempted seduction) with Finn? I'm not sure I'd want to help someone who acts like a spoiled brat."..."
Mothers dressed their daughters because they had control of the money, although that was ultimately the father's authority unless the mother had money of her own.
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Also true!
I know that following the war many women were forced out of the jobs they had been doing to make room for the returning men. But even before the war, unmarried women were moving in droves out of the family home to take jobs elsewhere. My own mother, a thoroughly conventional woman (although an immigrant from a working class family, unable to afford college) moved from New York to Washington in the 1930s to work for the federal government and live in a group house with other young women, as did literally thousands of "government girls" at the time (many of whom were college graduates), and took an unchaperoned vacation to Europe in 1938 (admittedly mostly to visit family members). I think the pattern of moving from Daddy's house to Hubby's was already pretty broken by then.I could not escape the sensation that Quinn was raising artificial barriers to make it seem as though Charlie was making an enormous effort to break free of convention -- a convention that I am unconvinced still existed. Another example of this was the train trip to London from Southampton. Charlie says, "The grandmother gave my ring-less, glove-less hand a disapproving glance, as if wanting to know what kind of girl was traveling London on her own." This is preposterous. Women traveled alone all over England during the war, doing war work and doing the work of the men who were at war. Single women on trains could not possibly have been an anomaly to this woman! Heck, unmarried Mary Russell rode back and forth on trains between Oxford, London, and Sussex, and never reported anyone giving her an untoward glance -- before 1920!
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Perhaps it's a class issue, Lenore. Upper-class girls were often more sheltered and restricted than their middle or working class sisters, even in the 19th century. Their parents could afford to protect them and behave as if they were made out of fine china, whereas people in the "real world" didn't have that luxury. And Mary Russell makes the point that she is allowed to behave as she does because of the War, which did indeed play havoc with all the established norms (like having to be chaperoned, and going about with a MAN!).
Lenore wrote: ".My own mother, a thoroughly conventional woman (although an immigrant from a working class family, unable to afford college) moved from New York to Washington in the 1930s to work for the federal government and live in a group house with other young women,"Lenore- my mother had a similar experience- she couldn't get a job in NYC (!) so moved to Baltimore and worked for Social Security and lived with a group of other young women who remained friends throughout their lives.
What Merrily wrote: "Perhaps it's a class issue" might well be true, since my mother, a first generation American, also came from a working class family. Her father died when she was young & college was out of the question. So she had to find work. I can't imagine Mary Russell behaving like a "lady" regardless of current events. Maybe Quinn made a study of post WWII norms or maybe she just made up all the annoying characteristics.
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I've read a number of Quinn's other books and generally she does her research - so I assume she's basing Charlie on the experience of at least some women. By the way, I was reminded in this discussion of a story Katherine Graham (the publisher of the Washington Post) told about going off to college (at one of the Seven Sisters, I believe). She was so unused to taking care of herself that after a few months, her roommate suggested to her that she might want to take her sweaters to the dry cleaner, as they were beginning to smell. She hadn't realize one had to do that, because at home it had always been done for her! She was a bit younger than Charlie, but clearly learned helplessness is not fictional!
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And not even ancient history! I had similar experiences while I was in college, which was not that long ago! So many boys who were completely intimidated by the washing machine because they'd never had to use one before. And girls with enough socks and underwear to last them the full school term so they could bring all their laundry home for mom.
Finally finished the book last night- had to skim the more graphically violent sections. Had one nightmare and one sleepless night- I think I.m done reading war novels for a while.
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Sorry to hear that, Antoinette, hope you sleep better tonight!
I found this rather timely question in the Reading Group Questions at the end of the book.Charlie dreads the stigma of being a "bad girl" pregnant out of wedlock, and Eve fears shame and disnissal as a horizontale if it is learned she slept with a source for information. Discuss the sexual double standards each woman faced. How have our sexual stndards for women changed since 1915 and 1947?
To which I would add, Have they changed?
From 1951-1954 I was a student in The College of the University of Chicago. Many of the women in my dormitory were from wealthy NYC and nearby wealthy communities. They were used to having maids take care of their clothing and didn’t understand the difference between washing and dry cleaning clothing - and didn’t ask for help from those of us who were used to taking care of our own clothing. One evening a friend and I went down to the dormitory laundry room to wash our clothes. We found the floor of the room knee deep in suds — literally. We mopped up the floor and when we were finally able to reach the washer which had overflowed we found one black cashmere sweater (shrunken and partially unraveled), one pair of blue jeans, and one pair of melted black nylons. There was a small, empty box of Tide on top of the washer. We knew immediately who had caused the mess and after laughing ourselves silly, we returned the clothing to her and gently explained how to take care of her clothes. We knew that she was relishing being free to manage the details of her own life, and applauded that.
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Pat, that's a wonderful story and beautifully illustrates the way life was for some women at that period (I'm sure Kay Graham would have laughed had she heard it).
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Charlie dreads the stigma of being a "bad girl" pregnant out of wedlock, and Eve fears shame and disnissa..."
Lenore, interesting question - I'd say that today, there is little if any stigma to having a child out of wedlock (in fact the whole concept of illegitimacy could be said to have disappeared). Neither is sleeping with a man to whom one is not married frowned on, except in very religious homes. Sleeping with a man for profit or purposes of espionage is, however, still a bit Beyond the Pale, although Eve might certainly have argued that it's no worse than many other actions taken by spies - betraying confidences, blackmail, etc. And another interesting question is: would a male spy who seduced a woman for the purpose of getting information be similarly condemned? I suspect not.
Eve’s fear was more about being shunned or even harmed as someone who slept with a collaborator for favors. Her co-workers did not know she was a spy, only that she got special treatment as Rene’s bed partner. Charlie’s dread is not so much about the stigma of being pregnant and unmarried as it is about her limited choices. In that day, she could have been forced to marry someone, even a man who was not the father; give the baby up for adoption; or, because her parents were rich, get an abortion. I was born only a few years later in 1954 to a college student who gave me up for adoption. I’ve never searched for my birth mother, so I know very little about her circumstances.
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Dayna, yes, that's true about Eve, but I was speaking more about post-war judgments by people who might have known that she was a spy and still judged her. And she had reason to be concerned about being thought a collaborator, women who slept with the enemy were treated very, very harshly.
I date from 1945, myself, so I well remember the days when girls who got pregnant (and there were quite a number of them in my high school class) were went away in disgrace, usually to some distant relative or to a home for unwed mothers such as the Florence Crittenden home. I suspect the majority of those babies were put up for adoption, whether the mother wanted to or not, as the parents usually wanted the girl to return home and go on with her life as if nothing had happened.
Merrily—I was myself placed by a Florence Crittendon home in Columbus, Ohio.
Agree, Merrily, re Eve and her fear of judgement post-war.
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That's amazing - I think there are many stories that arose from those homes, and the way "unwed mothers" were viewed at the time.
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Has any seen or read Red Sparrow (serious trigger warning for violence and being generally disturbing, on that btw!)? I think that rather answers that question for spies. Their conduct certainly seem to be held to a different standard than your average person, for both men and women.
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Hmm...I always think of spies being super good at keeping their activities "on the job" secret and separate from their personal lives. Given that Eve seemed to have no connections whatsoever before she became a spy, who would she be fearing judgement from? And how would they have found out what she did while working as a spy during the war?
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I think the stigma is now related more to age than anything else. Though for totally different reasons. Like having a baby as a teenager is still viewed as being ruinous, but more because it interrupts education, job opportunities, etc. That said, however, I think there's still a bit of stigma against having a baby without the father being in the picture to some degree.
Erin wrote: "...Given that Eve seemed to have no connections whatsoever before she became a spy, who would she be fearing judgement from? And how would they have found out what she did while working as a spy during the war?"I interpreted Eve's anxiety differently. I think she was afraid of being found out by her superiors in the spy service, and bounced for that. On page 267 in the edition I have, while preparing for the abortion:
At a stroke she'd been rendered from a spy and a soldier, someone who battled enemies and saved lives, into just another pregnant woman to be unceremoniously bundled home and treated like a whore. Evve knw exactly what ind of future she could expect seven months from now if she did noting: unmarried, unwanted,m jobless, penniless, despised, shackled for life to an invader seeded by an enemy....
Merrily wrote: "Dayna wrote: "Merrily—I was myself placed by a Florence Crittendon home in Columbus, Ohio."That's amazing - I think there are many stories that arose from those homes, and the way "unwed mothers"..."
Slightly off topic (because it's about homes for unwed mothers, not about the book we're reading), I just ran across this article: http://tinyurl.com/y8utn3ak
I actually liked (narratively speaking) that Eve ended up sleeping with the boss. So often books with female spies or action heroes avoid that, and it really becomes hard to suspend disbelief after awhile.
Emily wrote: "I actually liked (narratively speaking) that Eve ended up sleeping with the boss. So often books with female spies or action heroes avoid that, and it really becomes hard to suspend disbelief after..."We have to disagree here. I found the scene stilted and unrealistic. (Not the concept of her sleeping with the boss, just the way it all came about.)
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And it probably says something that I'm not terribly surprised that her mother controlled her wardrobe and that society would shun her, but totally shocked that the bank would not be obliged to give her money that is in an account under her own name. If they had said that they account couldn't be opened under her name, I think I would have been less surprised, even. But if the banks allow women to open accounts and deposit funds, how could they deny them the withdrawal of said funds??
ETA: and if it was common knowledge that banks would deny women access to their own money, why were they bothering doing business there???? I would expect to hear more stories of ladies keeping their money under mattresses or whatever, if this was the case.
But maybe it's specifically because she's so young?
Erin wrote: "I'm pretty behind on my reading and just got to the part where Charlotte is trying to withdraw money from the bank and being turned away because they will only give her money to her if her father a..."And this is another problem I had with this book. It was only in 1970 that the age of majority in the U.S. was generally reduced to 18 from 21. This was a trust account established in a U.S. bank, so I find it highly implausible that Charlotte should have had a trust established that would give her access before 21, regardless of the views of the banker.
That said, I also found it unlikely that, if the terms of the trust were that she can access the money at 18, a banker would refuse her the money, assuming proper identification (which she had). Not impossible -- banks have been known to hold up withdrawals or cashing checks when they suspect fraud, which is a good thing (and how the killers of William Marsh Rice, founder of what is now Rice University, were caught) -- but unlikely. So I thought that, like the improbably scandalized woman on the train, this was another fake obstacle that the author put in Charlie's path.
Which brings me back to a point I raised earlier about Charlie's clothes. Charlie tells us that she has been working, earning her own money, and putting her salary into this account, in addition to the money her grandmother put in. And yet she's not using any of her money to buy a few outfits she likes instead of what her mother buys her? For someone so self-centered and impulsive, this just sounds out of character to me.
What did you all think of Charlie reducing situations and people to mathematical equations? I really expected that her expertise at math might be a factor in solving the mystery of Rose and was disappointed that it wasn’t.
Dayna wrote: "What did you all think of Charlie reducing situations and people to mathematical equations? I really expected that her expertise at math might be a factor in solving the mystery of Rose and was dis..."It did seem kind of gratuitous, didn't it?
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To that point, would a family that allows their 14-year-old daughter to work for wages at the father's office and then sends her off to college for a mathematics degree be as overbearing as Charlie's seems to be when we meet her (granted, we only see them through her teenaged eyes, but still). That seems really at odds to me. I can't picture a mother who dresses her daughter on one hand and gives her that much freedom on the other.
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She does seem rather savant-like the way she talks about maths, so it was rather surprising that she doesn't wield those skills as a tool.
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Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Guns of August (other topics)The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914 (other topics)
Red Sparrow (other topics)
1947 – American college student Charlotte (“Charlie”) St.Clair is pregnant, unmarried, and being taken off to Switzerland by her French-born mother to have her “little problem” taken care of. But she is also obsessed by the hope that her beloved French cousin, Rose, who disappeared in Nazi-occupied France during WWII, might still be alive. So when Charlie and her mother stop in Southampton, Charlie breaks free and heads to London, where, she has reason to believe, there is a woman who might be able to put her on the trail to find Rose.