Beta Reader Group discussion
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Timing on Posting Beta Reader Request?
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Hi Marguerita,I know that beta reading comes after you have self edited and before the work goes to the editor.
I am not sure how long it would take to find beta readers for your work. I think it can depend on where you ask and potentially the genre of you work. I have spoken to authors who have found them very quickly and others who have taken considerably longer.
When to ask for beta readers would depend on how close to needing them you are I would suggest.
There are lots of places you can post to find them both on here and on Facebook. On here you can also approach both free and paid beta readers.
Hope that helps :0)
Jutta
(Beta reader )
I would say a good time to think about beta readers is when you've taken your novel about as far as you can on your own, but not so far that you're unwilling to work on developing the plot, characters, etc. any further. Usually for most people that's a second or third draft. A couple of suggestions for getting more out of your beta readers. 1) Make sure you read your story over yourself first, like a reader. You'll be amazed at what you find and can fix on your own. 2) Although no one expects a beta read to be super polished, the cleaner your prose and copy, the easier it is for someone to help you.
In terms of how long it takes to find readers, it depends on several factors. Are you willing to swap with another author? Are you willing to pay a reader? If so, you'll find readers much faster than if you only want free readers. Certain genres are easier "sells" than others, but at the same time, there can be a glut of say, sci-fi or romance or fantasy writers looking for betas at any given time, meaning those readers have plenty to choose from. Honestly, I think finding a free reader is often as much a matter of luck as anything, unless you can find someone to give you a personal recommendation. I beta read here as a volunteer, but I'm choosy and selective because it's a huge time sink, and I've been burned a few times by ghosting authors.
In terms of editors, there's a lot of different kinds, but I would not pay for a professional line/copy edit or proofread prior to beta reading. Chances are good your betas are going to point out things you're going to change. Line/copy editing comes later, once all the big level issues are worked out, and proofreading comes last.
Jen.
I'm going to contradict the previous posters, but you need to get used to contradictory advice if you're going to hang out here ;-)I think you should get developmental editing when you think you've got it the way you want it. While I got lots of valuable input from beta readers (I got over 30 readers for my first; yes I was very insecure), as a class they're not going to give you in-depth suggestions on your problem areas.
I like to think of beta readers as general impression feedback rather than specific, and look for trends rather than absolutes. Meaning, if I have 5 readers (always get an odd number, just for this) and two comment on something but the others don't, I ignore their feedback (unless it inspires me). If I have three with the same comment, I'll seriously consider their feedback, but if two thought the same area was fine (I've had good luck back-and-forthing with readers, as long as it's within a couple of days), I'll probably ignore it. If they all have the same complaint about the same thing, then I'll spend a good bit of time deciding how important that element is to my overall intent before making any changes. But this is all from an impressionistic standpoint, not detailed and specific feedback about plot, characterization, pacing, etc. That's where the dev editor shines and why I think they should come before beta readers.
Line/copy editing always comes last and never spend time/money on that until you've decided you have it exactly the way you want. While _some_ line editors may make larger suggestions, their focus is (as it should be) on sentences and paragraphs. Copy editors focus on words and phrases. Those editors are going to assume, for better or worse, that you want the larger elements to be exactly the way they are.
And, yes, this can cost a lot of money. You can get bargains from people getting started in the business, but to a large degree, you get what you pay for. And always ensure your editor(s) are sympathetic with your story goals, as advice that changes your intent is generally useless. The same should be said of beta readers as well. If they don't 'get' your story, then expect to ignore almost all their feedback.
Mod
Beta reading is after you've had about 2 rounds of developmental editing to get through plot holes, characterization, structural editing, flow... all that stuff. The average traditionally published book has had 1 to 2 dev edits, then copy/line edits, and then beta reader input. It is not how many people pitch their services, on this board and otherwise, but I think that is how the market has evolved because good dev editors are expensive. Going through manuscripts multiple times to see all the layers and then reporting on those layers is a lot of work and is very time consuming if done well.
My advice would be to seek out a Dev editor who will do a thorough job but also offer suggestions and spend the time to flush out those suggestions with you and keep to your voice and goal for the novel. I would then work out those issues and then do another Dev edit. The reason I say this is that fixing issues will either bring to light hidden ones or create other ones (such as consistency errors). After that, I would roundtable it with a critique partner or workshop to make sure you've caught all the little things. Then I'd send it off for line and copy edits.
The very last thing you want to do is get beta readers. This is the last step before you submit your baby to the world. I don't think there are many professional developmental editors here, but I do know a few if you would like some recommendations if you'd like to discuss the project you are working on.
Good luck with your novel! If you ever need anything, please feel free to ask or message me :)
I guess I don't see why you would go to a beta reader as the very last step. If you spend all that money on developmental editing and copy/line editing / proofreading only to find out that actual live readers HATE your characters or significant elements of your story, then what do you do? Rip it up and start over again? Every time you touch a manuscript, even to make a minor change, you run the risk of introducing errors into it, so if you need to make any changes based on your beta feedback, you're basically going to at a minimum need to pay for copy editing and proofreading a second time. To give another perspective, most writers aren't independently wealthy and end up having to make choices, and all writers should go in with a realistic expectation about the marketplace. While traditionally published books go through multiple edits at a publishing house, if you're footing the bill as an indie author, you could EASILY spend $2K per round on developmental editing, another $1-2K per round of line editing, another $1-2K per round on copy editing, and another $1K on proofreading. Then you also need to pay a cover designer, a book formatter, and need an advertising budget to get your book found; just because you wrote it doesn't mean readers will come. You could end up $10K in the hole on your novel, no sweat. And depending on what kind of book you've written, even if it's a wonderful book, it might not sell.
Authors are creative types and tend to shy from numbers, but if you're a writer, you need to also think like a businessperson and decide how much you want to, and should, invest in your project. One big positive of developmental editing is you can often learn things and apply it to your future writing, so many writers will pay for a developmental edit as an investment in their writing career. And certainly, if you find an agent and get picked up by a publisher, take advantage of all the editing help they'll give you; you'd be nuts not to. But if you're going indie, you need to look at this with a cold eye, decide on a budget, and stick to it.
I've had good luck with beta readers on this board. Developmental editing was just too far out of my price range given my novel is literary fiction, and literary fiction, even traditionally published lit fiction from bigger names, just doesn't typically sell well.
Jen.
Mod
To summarize: A developmental edit is a thorough and in-depth edit of your entire manuscript. It is an examination of all the elements of your writing, from single words and the phrasing of individual sentences, to overall structure and style. It can address plot holes or gaps, problematic characterization and all other existing material.
So, with that said... A good developmental editor will tell you those things you mentioned, but they have experience, knowledge, and scope on their side. They will tell you what sells, what doesn't, if your character is likable or not (to them) and why using publish industry reasons as well as factoring the relatability, sensitivity, etc. A good dev editor will tell you if your readers are likely (or not likely) to like your characters and why- that is called characterization, which I mentioned in my post that a good developmental editor will do.
They will tell you everything about your book, both good and bad. Good developmental editing will also bear in mind your target audience and will judge your work in relation to professional industry standards and expectations
I agree, that stuff is expensive, but it's an investment. You do have to budget, etc but I there is a lot of poorly edited Indie stuff out there that can overshadow the well-written, well-edited pieces, and it is very unfortunate. You made some very good points about writing as a business. It is. whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, it just is what it is. :)
I think I understand what a developmental editor does ...My issue is more with when in the process you say to get beta readers involved. I would say the beta readers should probably come in after the developmental editing stage but before you begin to work on the manuscript at the line and word level. Beta reading to me is a kind of content editing because you're asking the reader to give you global level feedback on your novel. Until you have all the character, plot, and story issues worked out, it doesn't make sense to obsess over your word choices and phrasings, let alone the nitty gritty of proofreading.
So in terms of order, if money isn't an object, I'd go to a developmental editor, then do a round with beta readers, then maybe do another round with the developmental editor, followed by one more beta reading round. Only then would I move on to line/copy and proofing.
We can of course agree to disagree. :)
I do agree with you re: poorly edited indie books. On the other hand, being able to publish a novel for say around a $1-2K investment versus $8-10K opens up the writing world to other voices who have been ignored by agents and traditional publishing companies and otherwise wouldn't be heard at all ... people with disabilities, people from poorer socioeconomic groups, people of color, etc. And I think that's all and all a big positive. The best part of being an indie writer (other than how people are so willing to share their hard won knowledge freely) is how inclusive the community is. You can find a niche and a readership, even if it's small. Those other voices at least have a chance to be heard.
Let me add my two cents here. First, a developmental editor is the first editor you go to to make sure you have all the elements you need in the correct order and that everything works. If you can afford one, they will pull your MS together and make it into a cohesive story. Copy and proof editors are after you've made all the corrections from the developmental editor. Beta readers are to give you a reader's feed back and should come before the copy editor or proofreader gets to it. The Beta reader should tell you what they like, dislike or feel doesn't work as a reader. If you and your developmental editor did a good job, the Beta reader will have little other than praise for your work. The last step it the fixing all the wording and punctuation. If you are like a lot of indie authors, you can't afford the developmental editor. In that case, you get the MS in the best shape as possible and send it to several Beta readers to review and change it based on their feedback before getting a copy editor or proofreader. As one person mentioned, you can do a lot on your own.
Try not looking at it for a month, then printing it off and reading it aloud as a reader. You will find glaring mistakes along with awkward wording/phrasing and even some plot holes, stilted dialogue, problems with characters or scenes, etc. After that, use a form of text to speech to listen to it like you would an audio book. That will also show errors and you can tell if things work as you listen. If you loose interest in the book as you listen, so will your readers. (The new MS word has the text to speech function which is decent.)
If you pay for nothing else, pay for the copy editing or proofing. I read a lot of indie books and the one thing which will make me upset is a poorly edited book. A mistake here and there is fine, but when I find huge errors, I'll quit reading as the errors will pull me out of the book. I've seen books from small publishing houses or vanity presses which are poorly edited where the name of the main character changes in the middle, sentences with make no sense, disrupting the story.
The key is to get it in the best shape possible before publishing. If you are doing it on a shoestring, even a $1K may be out of reach, so you do what you can with what you have to make it into the best book you can without attempting to be perfect. Learn from the experts and keep plugging along.
Although I hesitate to weigh in again on this topic, I would suggest you stop quibbling over definitions. In my experience, people who post on Goodreads asking for beta readers are at the stage in their writing where they are primarily in need of someone who will tell them if they are on the right track or if they are heading in the wrong direction. It doesn't matter what you call it.So many of the books that I have beta read are lacking the basics of a coherent plot, fully developed characters, or even simple writing skills.
Technically, yes, a beta reader should enter the picture after the MS is fully written and polished. Unfortunately, that is not always the case here on Goodreads.
My feeling is that when requesting a beta reader, be realistic and honest in your post. If you feel you need some guidance in your plot, say so. If you think your character development needs tweaking, point that out. Any less is a waste of your beta reader's time.
Beta reading is a huge time commitment and should not be used without respect for the reader and vice versa. Writing is hard. Even bad writing is hard. So just try to be realistic and open with what kind of feedback you're looking for and don't worry about a label.
Stuart wrote: "Brilliant advice."Thanks, Stuart. :)
Do I understand correctly that writers send their MS to Beta Readers before sending to their editor? Any advice, personal preference or clarification is welcome.
Thank you for your advice! I am experienced with non-fiction, writing and publishing, but not fiction and I'm working on novels now.