J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion
The Fellowship of the Ring
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Chapter 12; book two chapters 1-3
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FoTR/Book2/Chapter 1: “Many Meetings”Happy New Year to everyone! I apologize for my absence.
I love that Tolkien introduced the debate of the question of who IS the “Lord of the Ring” into the story. (BTW, spoilers ahead if this is your first reading and do not know how the story ends).
‘Hurray!’ cried Pippin, …”Make way for Frodo, Lord of the Ring!’
‘Hush!’ said Gandalf…’The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the master of the Dark Tower of Mordor,…’
In these passages, Tolkien may be, in fact, definitively answering the question of whom the title of the book is named. After all,…well, if Gandalf says so, I’m normally a believer. In this case, however, I’m not sure I agree.
Sauron created the Ring, essence of his malice is in the Ring, and he is very powerful when he has it. But he lost it once at the height of his power. He certainly desires to get the ring back, and if he does, watch out! But, how can you be the Lord of the Ring in a story in which at no time do you ever possess the ring? You lost it, you put all your efforts into getting it back, and you failed. As Lord of the Ring, Sauron, you stink.
Frodo is given possession of the Ring by the previous owner, who lawfully obtained the abandoned property. He maintained and carried the Ring throughout the entire story with only one lapse in which the item is cared for by a legal representative, who returns the property upon request.
However, one can argue one cannot have complete domain over an item unless one has the power to destroy that item. Frodo had the opportunity to destroy the Ring and failed because the Ring actually controlled Frodo in the end. Who’s the master (lord) of whom?
So, that leads us to Gollum. He, like Sauron, lost and then sought the Ring. He, unlike Sauron, regained the Ring. He, unlike Frodo, ultimately destroyed the Ring. However, he destroyed the Ring by accident and not on purpose. His “Lordship” over the ring was suspect, at best.
For me, I prefer the title of one of my favorite stories to be named after the protagonist and not the main antagonist or one of his henchmen. Frodo legally gained possession, maintained possession (lorded over) for almost the entire story, and, in the end, he accomplished his ultimate goal (with the help of friend, foe, and fate) by destroying the Ring. Frodo, you are my Lord of the Ring!
Interesting line of thought, George. You’re reasoning is sound, but I tend to look at Sauron as LOTR, myself. It makes an interesting question, though... why did he title the book as he did? It’s almost like that is the point of the story, to decide who will be Lord of the rings... it works with all the points you made as well.Even the individual book titles work with this, the Fellowship of the Ring, the Two Towers (contesting wills for mastery), and the Return of the King (redefining the power structure).
Is definitely a new thought to keep in mind when reading. Thanks for suggesting it, George!
“…in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the further seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power”In the books and movies when Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel fight the Ringwraiths, I often wondered how they were able to essentially fight ghosts with normal swords and shields. Would they not just go through them without injury? The above passages seems to resolve my previous confusion.
The publisher named Return. Tolkien thought it was a spoiler, and preferred The War of the Ring.
Good point, Mary, I’d forgotten that. It is still curious given that Aragorn has been labeled heir since book 2, and the reforged blade was revealed before the final book as well. It’s funny to think that people would buy the book not expecting it to turn out with good victorious. It seems such an obvious plot direction. I find it odd that Tolkien really thought it a spoiler.
Remember that all the expectations of what an epic fantasy would do were set by Tolkien.
I’ve been reading Many Meetings, and I love the descriptions of the different characters. It’s interesting to see how Tolkien viewed them. I’d forgotten Arwen being compared with Tinuviel.
Though Elrond's insistence that the Fellowship take no oaths gets special punch after reading The Silmarillion. One can see how, after (view spoiler) one might be a little sour on them.And it could have had interesting effects if Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli had (view spoiler).
That was a very interesting article, Mary. Thank you for sharing! I’m not sure Tolkien wrote with that intent behind his story, but I’m certain he would have taken every care to craft his words to avoid legal entanglements. It was a fun read.
I very thought provoking article. Thanks, Mary!
FoTR/Book2/Chapter 2: “The Council of Elrond”Elrond: “That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world”.
Again, Elrond is referencing a belief in a greater power controlling things (“so ordered”) on Middle-earth. Is it a belief or does he know? Is it Eru Iluvatar directly or through the Vala? Are there greater powers controlling just the “good” side or is Sauron also getting some greater assistance and by whom? It seems to me Sauron is on his own, and that’s the way he wants it. As I’ve said, I love this idea of greater powers manipulating, but not deciding the final outcome.
Boromir and his brother's dreams before the Osgiliath battle again signify a greater power helping our heroes. Whose voice speaks to them in their dreams? The fact that “Halfing” is mentioned as standing against indicates Frodo’s task is preordained. In the movie, I love the scene when Frodo stops the bickering by agreeing to take the ring to Mordor. It seems to be a surprise to all (maybe not Gandalf) and a symbolic gesture representing his bravery and strength. In the book, I felt Elrond and Gandalf, at least, knew it was Frodo’s task, and they were just waiting for him to come to the conclusion. I’m sure Boromir’s dream helped all to come to the ultimate conclusion.
Also if you remember in two towers, both film and book, when Gandalf returns he says he has come back until his task is done. So and maybe I'm just reaching, but I honestly think that that's another example of a higher power dipping its hand in the events.They, either Iluvatar or the Valar, knew that the remains of the Fellowship would need his knowledge and experience (being one of the Miar) to go forth in events to come.
I think those are great points, George and Eileen. I feel like there are numerous times when Tolkien uses the sense of unseen influences guiding events. I’ve often wondered why he isn’t more explicit. It seems clear that the Valar are working, but he only suggests it. I wonder if he wants the influence to appear vague, or if he doesn’t want to name specific names. For all the work he did on the Silmarillion, he seems very selective about what he incorporates in LOTR. I don’t remember many of the Valar or Maiar being named in LOTR.
Maybe he’s vague to keep the story simple, to make the unseen influences more universal and identifiable for the reader.
George wrote: "FoTR/Book2/Chapter 1: “Many Meetings”Happy New Year to everyone! I apologize for my absence.
I love that Tolkien introduced the debate of the question of who IS the “Lord of the Ring” into the ..."
Fun fact: Tolkien's original working title was 'The Magic Ring', back during the time when it was still shaping up to be a sequel to 'The Hobbit', and was therefore less dark and serious.
For me, one of the core themes of the book is that no one can really be the lord of the ring (despite the ring actually using that as temptation for you to possess it). People take the ring with either good or bad intentions of the things they will be able to accomplish with the power the ring imbues, but ultimately they become entirely lost and subsumed by the evil that the ring invokes. Look at what became of the Ringwraiths, and that was only through the possession of lesser rings that did not have Sauron's will and evil as its essence literally poured into it. Given the fact that Sauron was actually physically diminished as a result of what he put into the creation of the ring, and that he was able to wield his desire and influences over its control, he has to take that crown if anyone does.
I would also say that Frodo doesn't really do a great job of mastery over the ring, he merely manages to survive it, and its questionable whether he succeeds at that in the end. There are several points in the book at this juncture where he has given over to this influence, but luckily without deadly consequences. Certainly his ability to avoid being totally consumed by it speaks volumes of his courage and will-power, but definitely not his control over it.
James wrote: "I think those are great points, George and Eileen. I feel like there are numerous times when Tolkien uses the sense of unseen influences guiding events. I’ve often wondered why he isn’t more explic..."I always felt like this was rather clever of him James. If you think about what magic really is in Tolkien's universe, it isn't hocus pocus mumbo jumbo, but is the workings of higher powers that get described as magic by those that do not understand it (as evidenced by the fact that the elves often reject this label of their powers and abilities). It makes it more subtle, and in a way more believable than latter incarnations of this concept.
I also think there are two other major factors at play. Firstly, as a Roman Catholic, Tolkien considered this to ultimately be a Christian work at its core. But it would have made no sense to incorporate actual Judeo-Christian teachings or history, as this was intended to be a pre-history of those events. So instead, he uses broader concepts, such as the idea of eucatastrophe (or what we might see as miracles), a monotheistic world with arbiters of good and evil (with all the gray areas in-between), and agents of those forces participating in that struggle. As readers, we deeply understand those concepts, because in a sense they are so familiar to us, despite being in a way totally different from our real-world history. It took me years and multiple readings of this book to really understand what he was doing (it is not overt Christian apologetics such as the works of C.S. Lewis), but I think it explains a lot about why so many people connect so deeply with it.
Secondly, the real heart and soul of Tolkien's world was the mythology contained in The Silmarillion. He tried for years to get that published first, and almost abandoned his publisher due to the promise of another publisher that would take on both The Silmarillion and the LOTR. Being entirely unsuccessful in this endeavor, he instead incorporated the backstory of that mythology into the LOTR, but only weaved it into the background, so that you get concepts of depth and history, without long winded tangential forays that would have detracted from and diminished the core tale he was telling. He leaves the reader wanting more, which is an amazing accomplishment given the fact that the book is 1000+ pages!
Excellent insight, Tara! I think the one instance that stands out for me with Frodo resisting the ring so far is the moment at the ford, with the Morgul shard nearing his heart and the full force of the Nazgul before him. Frodo stands against them and resists their call as well as the temptation of the ring.Interestingly, he is at last partly in a spirit realm, as he is able to see Glorfindel revealed as light. This would suggest he was particularly vulnerable to the nine and the ring, making his resistance so much more powerful. Unfortunately, that resolve has eroded later on in the series, but I was struck by his command in that moment.
James wrote: "Excellent insight, Tara! I think the one instance that stands out for me with Frodo resisting the ring so far is the moment at the ford, with the Morgul shard nearing his heart and the full force o..."Absolutely James. I often wonder what my strength and resolve would have been in Frodo's shoes (or hairy feet), and I doubt I would have had the fortitude to make the journey at all, let alone resist the powerful forces all around me. But even here, we can see the ring/wraiths exerting their will. Frodo stops because he is compelled to do so. The hatred that wells up inside of him can also be traced back to the evil powers. I think it is fair for us to question how successful Frodo would have been at this moment if not for the external forces of the Ford and Glorfindel. I don't say this to take anything away from what Frodo accomplishes here, only to point out how very difficult (and ultimately fruitless) it is to resist the ring with your own internal resources alone.
Excellent discussion! Tolkien had to definitely walk the tightrope on the external forces because if he went too far, the reader would believe all was preordained and individual character choices were irrelevant. If so, the suspense of the final outcome would then be gone. Since the Silmarillion had not been published, the mythology was not known, and the reader may have become frustrated with story intrigue introduced with no frame of reference or explanation. The mysterious/spiritual portions had to be just enough to pique the interest without interfering with the story. When I first read the LoTRs, I had not read the Silmarillion and did not understand any of the mythology. I was curious, didn’t understand a lot of the references, but I don’t remember any of it interfering with my enjoyment of the story. To me, the Silmarillion later became a great prequel that explained all those mysterious passages and references and has since made my re-reading of the LoTR more enjoyable. I wonder if Tolkien would have eventually explained which mysterious forces were helping our heroes from the mythology or just left it to us, the readers, to debate.
In “The Silmarillion”:“Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin…for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in the form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imagination of the darkness”.
A possible source of external forces as previously discussed.
Good old Gandalf... I’m sure he is behind most of the background machinations. But I think there is much more going on than what Gandalf is aware of.
I agree. There have to be more outside influences than Gandalf. Not that he was an external influence. However, it may explain some of Frodo's dreams.
When discussing options, Elrond states they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive the Ring. For good or ill, it belongs to Middle-earth and those who dwell there must deal with it.I’m wondering if there is any justification for this opinion in the other works or is Tolkien just moving the story along and dismissing possible options for the readers. If the latter, I wish the Eagles would have been discussed at the Council. The Eagle Theory is the excuse most often mentioned by those who are not Tolkien/LoTR fans.
I think Elrond’s statement is consistent with Tolkien’s other works, George. When the Valar intervened at the end of the first age, they separated the West from middle earth. Even during the first age they stayed out of the way until Earendel and Elwing pleaded for assistance on behalf of men and elves.I think Tolkien is being very consistent here with his other works. I think it speaks to his sense of religion as well. We create our problems and are expected to overcome them on our own. His external forces suggest direction, guide decisions, etc., but leave action to the dreamer.
The Eagles are Manwe's servants, and no one at the Council could summon them to even talk. They probably didn't even think of them. The Ring could have gone by ship if they tried to send it over the Sea, OTOH.
I love Tolkien’s choice of language... “For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice.” It’s a wonderful line in reference to Sauron by Gandalf. It has a wonderful cadence in my ear, almost biblical or Shakespearean.To me it represents the best of Tolkien, showing his love of words and language, as well as his ability to carefully construct a sentence for maximum effect.
George wrote: "When discussing options, Elrond states they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive the Ring. For good or ill, it belongs to Middle-earth and those who dwell there must deal with it.I’m wonder..."
The real problem with the "just send the eagles" solution is that it implies that there exists an easy path to destroy the Ring. The whole premise of the journey is that it is supremely difficult, and even the wise do not know what is the best choice. This is evidenced by the fact that Gandalf's and Aragorn's plans are constantly thwarted, forcing them to reassess and readjust. In the end, what occurs is nothing that any of them would have actively planned, but is the only course that would have been successful.
Excellent point Tara. I think it’s important to remember that part of the Fellowship’s hope for success comes from the unhorsing of the riders and the belief that the spies of Mordor will be watching the roads and areas of perceived threat. They believe success lies in secrecy, hence a trek through the wild, a small company with little strength of arms, etc.Direct flight by eagles would be too visible, even if they don’t suspect anyone choosing to destroy the ring over using it. Their success lies in being secretive not open, and taking the hard road into Mordor and the crack of doom, rather than an easier path.
James wrote: "Excellent point Tara. I think it’s important to remember that part of the Fellowship’s hope for success comes from the unhorsing of the riders and the belief that the spies of Mordor will be watchi..."Agreed James. Another angle of the eagles argument is similar to Tom Bombadil's, in the sense that they simply were not invested enough in the fate of the Ring to be entrusted with it. They very rarely interceded in humanoid affairs, and only when they chose to do so. I think it is entirely consistent that this was not considered a plausible solution.
Chapters as followed:
XII: Flight to the Ford
Book II
I: Many Meetings
II: Council of Elrond
III: The Ring Goes South