Beta Reader Group discussion
Covers, Blurbs, 1st Line, Query
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YA Fantasy query
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I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I believe the object of a query letter is to entice the agent/publisher to want/need to read more about your book. This query letter as it stands offers only a single paragraph about your book. The rest of you query tells how good a writer you may be... obviously a good one, however the single paragraph about your book likely won't make your target reader want to read more. I think you need to focus much more on your book. Make the agent want to know more, what the stakes are, who the main character/good guy is, what you protagonist wants, who is trying to prevent him from getting that, and of great importance, what happens if he fails?Your job with your query is to make the person you send it to want to read more to find out how it might end.
These are obviously only my thoughts, for what they may be worth.
I hope they help a little.
Randy
Randy,Thanks for your feedback.
I agree that the point is to make someone interested enough to want to read more, but I’ve seen a fair number of guides that stress brevity. To cover everything you mention, it would turn into a mini-synopsis. What I absolutely don’t want is to overwhelm the reader with too much info. In fact, if an agent or publisher decides I’ve gone too deep into the weeds, they’ll stop reading before they get to my credits, which I don’t want.
That said, you may be right as well, and I may not do a good enough job describing my book with just a tag line and a paragraph. I’d love to get some other opinions too.
absolutely get other opinions. I check daily a site/blog for Janet Reid and her blog site, Query Shark. She has a huge amount of information regarding queries, how to write one and how to fix yours to make it perfect. She's emphatic: the purpose is to show who your protagonist is, what the danger is, who is trying to stop them and what is the dire result of a possible failure.She too stresses brevity... her ideal is 250 words for the book temptation and then a paragraph to tell her about you and your accomplishments.
She's an awesome source for anything related to landing an agent.
I wish you all the best.
Randy
I'll offer that 115K words is _way_ too long for a debut YA novel. Like twice too long. Agents may stop reading at that point. You can't just split it in half, though, as typically debut novels need to be self contained and come with a clean ending.I suggest you come up with a more compelling blurb and shorten your bio a bit. The idea is to tease them into interacting with you and asking to review your MS. That's the only purpose. Once they've read and love your MS, the query letter will never been seen or used again. While it's possible that an agent might be interested enough to ask for your MS simply on your credentials, I expect they're going to want to see more of your potential as a writer with your actual words. But that's just my opinion.
You can always try out your blurb on a few agents and see what sort of feedback you get. Just keep in mind that you pretty much can only query the same book to an agent (or sometimes even agency) once; they won't change their mind even if you changed your query.
You seem like someone perfectly positioned to either self publish or to target a publisher directly. If you already have a built-in reader base that's going to do publicity for you, why do you need a publisher (or agent)? Besides, I've know authors who have self published that later got conventionally published, so maybe that's your best approach. That removes the 'restriction' of the debut novel length as well.
Keith,You're right; 115k is too long for a YA fantasy novel, but it's where I'm at and--yes--I can't just slice it in half. It may well be the thing that keeps me from getting this manuscript published.
So, when you say to make the blurb more compelling, what do you suggest exactly? More plot? More focus on characters? More setting? Certainly, there's a ton left unsaid, but I hesitate to just add without understanding what the reader really needs to know more about.
I'm not sure about reducing my bio. I'm competing with both established authors and new writers. I need every edge I can get, and while I don't have publishing credits, I've got a leg up. I don't think leaving those things unsaid will help.
As for self-publishing, I very well might go that direction, but only after I exhaust the traditional avenues. I would like this to build my resume both in my field and in writing, and self-publishing doesn't do that as effectively.
Thanks so much for your feedback. I appreciate it.
Querying can easily take a year to get feedback, then the agent has to start her efforts querying the publishers, which can take a year, then the publisher has to put your book into their production queue, and that can take a year or longer. Thus, you're looking at a very reasonable best case scenario where your novel will take up to three years to be on the bookshelf. Consider how many books you could be selling with your established customer base during that time.Your blurb is only 92 words, when the supposed sweet spot is 100-150. It's a single paragraph, when liberal use of white space will help motivate people to read. A blurb must introduce the character, outline the stakes for the story (what the protagonist needs to accomplish) and describe the obstacles keeping them from doing so. I don't feel I know your protagonist(s) very well, I barely know their names. I have only the barest fuzzy idea what he/they are trying to accomplish (keep Chaos from being freed?) and the only sense I get about any obstacle is, perhaps, he/they aren't the prophesied ones to do so.
As for your bio, I was recently reading an interesting article about Sally Field trying to get her book published and finding it hard to get an agent to even read it. Just because you have cool personal elements that can make you easy to market doesn't mean your writing is worth a damn. Expertise in one field does not automatically transfer to another and there are lots of little technical things that are required to produce a novel that's interesting and engaging to the target audience. Thus you can't simply talk about how great you are at something not related to writing novels and expect agents to come running (you could get lucky, though; there's a huge lottery-like aspect to success in this business). If you don't engage the agent (and often the agent uses your same basic query letter for the publishers the contact) immediately, they won't read to the end of your query. A good agent gets 500+ queries each week, which they have to read in addition to all the other work they need to do. And any MS requests, hence the time to read the MS, must be pulled from time they need to spend on their already successful authors. So, practically, you get 5-10 seconds to engage the agent enough to get them to invest the 30-40 seconds to complete reading your query, which has to be compelling enough to get them to want to read your synopsis, first chapter, etc., which, naturally, has to be gripping enough for them to request your MS. If you look at the queries that were successful, meaning they lead to a MS request, you'll see that they all violate the supposed standards in at least one way, and in many cases in an egregious way. Thus there's no guaranteed way to appeal to an agent. That being said, if your blurb is confusing, says nothing about your story, struggles to get the three basic goals of the blurb accomplished, etc., you're now creating barriers for yourself to get the agent to make that MS request.
In any case, your blurb needs to be compelling no matter what you do, unless your fans are so dedicated that they'll read it anyway. In which case, why are you bothering to waste time with querying. It's true that self-published books don't, by themselves, impress anyone, but if you've sold 10K+ copies of your self-published novel, that will attract notice. If you then want to find an agent and cut a deal with a publisher to get the wider exposure (note that they are vastly more likely to put real marketing dollars behind someone who has proven they can be profitable), you're the one driving the action instead of querying busy people and hoping for the best.
Hey Glen,Nice to meet a fellow game designer, here. I'm an upcoming game designer... Haha... Taking the hard journey...
Anyway, I'd like to give you some comments regarding your book... Sorry if this sounds mean... But your blurb as it is, doesn't really sell me on the book... I personally would like to know more about the characters or something more intriguing in the blurb, for me to consider reading it...
Also the blurb kinda feels like you're trying to sell yourself than the story or the characters and it comes off more like "I've written so and so works and have been in so and so positions, and worked with so and so people, so give my book a chance" kinda thing.
And also, since I'm not familiar with your other works, i can't be sold just on the face value of your other accomplishments... and it also comes across as a lack of confidence in your own story and characters...
I'd like to see more about the characters and the story in the blurb and not more than a line or 2 about yourself (I'd even avoid it if i can). I'd rather read about you in the author's bio.
That's just my personal opinion as a reader (not as a writer)... Sorry if it sounds harsh...
Hi all,It seems you're all in agreement that I need more material about the story itself, so I've done another pass. Please let me know what you think of this version if you can.
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Dear Ms. Agent,
Locked away long ago by the gods of Order, Chaos calls for its disciples, awaiting the one foretold to free it. Two childhood rivals answer: the storyteller and the sadist.
Galen, a wildly creative and starry-eyed fisherman’s son, just wants to figure out his own story, so long as it avoids fishing. But like his mother before him, his path doesn’t lead to riches or adventure; it brings him to the secret and forbidden vault of Chaos, where Order has set a lethal trap.
Only Galen’s strong connection to Chaos allows him to escape and rescue his mother from years of magical imprisonment. In the process, he discovers that his imagination is more powerful and dangerous than he realized. And that it can talk to him.
Horace, a whip-smart, orphaned bully, capitalizes on Order’s predictability and inflexibility to take control of one of its temples. Convinced Chaos can resurrect his mother, he hatches a plan to open the vault—regardless of the consequences. Horace razes other temples to collect what he needs, leaving death and destruction in his wake.
Order is powerless against Horace, so it falls to Galen, his mother, his friends, and his imagination to thwart him. But can they? And who is actually the Child of Chaos? Only the true Child can choose if Chaos will bring about destruction or unleash unlimited possibilities.
THE CHILD OF CHAOS is a 115K-word young adult fantasy novel. It builds on my two and a half decades as a writer, designer, director, and executive producer of award-winning, narrative-driven computer games.
I've had the honor to create new fantasy and science-fiction storylines that take established literary worlds into interactive games. I've collaborated with celebrated authors Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman (The Death Gate Cycle), Robert Jordan (The Wheel of Time), Frederik Pohl (Heechee saga), Terry Brooks (Shannara), and Piers Anthony (Xanth) to bring their creations to life. In addition, I've crafted licensor-approved fiction for the Star Trek franchise as well as Stan Sakai's epic graphic novel series, Usagi Yojimbo. Now I am expanding my narrative writing into my own original fantasy world.
I appreciate your time and consideration.
Sincerely,
Glen Dahlgren
Moses wrote: "Hey Glen,Nice to meet a fellow game designer, here. I'm an upcoming game designer... Haha... Taking the hard journey...
Anyway, I'd like to give you some comments regarding your book... Sorry if..."
Moses,
I'm open to all feedback, and don't worry if it's negative. As long as you're trying to help, I'm totally fine to hear it. I have been developing games for a long time, and you grow a (reasonably) thick skin when it comes to feedback about your work.
The only comment I'd question is that my bio makes me appear less confident in my work. Is it because of the relative word counts of each section? I don't think I'd want to leave out my bio because I consider it a competitive edge, but I'm happy to boost the word count of the plot summary. Does the new version read better to you?
Thanks for your help.
You've gone from one extreme to the other. The supposed sweet spot is 100-150 words and your blurb now clocks in at 226 (from 92 before). If you like, I can take a stab at tightening it up. Your first blurb made it sound like you had two protagonists, now it sounds like Galen is the protagonist and Horace is the antagonist. Readers generally identify with the protagonist, so you typically want to focus your blurb on that character.I personally prefer your new bio. It's condensed and it preserves your creative impact. I don't know that you need "Now I am expanding my narrative writing into my own original fantasy world" as that seems rather self evident.
Another thing you're missing is comps, or comparable books. Basically, which books you think your work should be shelved with. Well-known, yet not famous. And you thought writing the novel was the hard part ;-)
If you're going to stick with 115K for your debut YA novel, I think you're wasting your time querying. While there are plenty of YA novels that are longer than 60-70K, I expect you'll find there are no _debut_ novels longer than that range. For adult, scifi and fantasy is acceptable at 115K, but I don't think you'll find very many agents or publishers willing to take that on for YA. I'm happy to be proven wrong. But just so you know, I've had agents and publishers take more than 6 months to get back with a 'no.' And no answer, btw, means 'no,' so these are the ones that chose to respond. If you want to get your novel out to your established fans, I think you should focus on doing it yourself. It's still going to take months, as you need, at a _bare minimum_ a line editor and a proofer (you should get a dev editor first) and they all take time and cost money.
Keith,In this thread, someone mentioned that the sweet spot for a query description (not including bio) was 250 words. Mine was clearly under that, but after looking into it a bit further, other evidence points to a range of between 150-200 words. I’ve edited down to about 194.
In my novel, my antagonist isn’t just an obstacle. It tells both of their stories. So I think it’s important that he be represented in the query.
It seems you’re a believer in self-publishing, and I’m not arguing. That said, I still want to make the effort and see if the traditional route is possible, however unlikely.
Here’s my edited version.
————-
Locked away long ago by the gods of Order, Chaos calls for its disciples to free it. Two childhood rivals answer: the storyteller and the sadist.
Galen, a starry-eyed fisherman’s son, just wants to figure out his own story, so long as it avoids fishing. But like his mother before him, his path doesn’t lead to riches or adventure; it brings him to the forbidden vault of Chaos where Order has set a lethal trap. He escapes and rescues his mother from years of magical imprisonment, but doing so reveals his imagination is more powerful and dangerous than he realized. And it can talk to him.
Horace, a whip-smart, orphaned bully, subverts Order’s rules to take control of one of its temples. Convinced Chaos can resurrect his mother, he hatches a plan to open the vault—heedless of the consequences. Horace razes other temples to collect what he needs, leaving death and destruction in his wake.
Order is powerless against Horace, so it falls to Galen and his imagination to thwart him. But are either the Child of Chaos? Only the true Child can choose if Chaos will bring about destruction or unleash unlimited possibilities.
The word count for the query in total is suggested to be no more than 350 words (less is always more) while the word count for the blurb itself is recommended to be 100-150 words. You use the exact same blurb for the query that you'd put on the back of the book, so the extra words that form the query are the intro (always best to personalize each query), comps and bio.I like this one best so far.
My concern with spending a year querying is, if your word count is going to get you summarily rejected, then that year is wasted and you could be selling books during that period. I totally get the desire for the validation of having an agent take you on an a major publisher put your book on the shelf in the bookstore, but I think you're stacking the deck against yourself. Take some time to research the length of debut novels by genre and target audience.
Happy to be wrong though!
Hey Glen,I definitely know about growing thick skin as a game developer... haha...
Ya, it came across as less confident because there was very little information about the story or characters and there was a lot more information about yourself and your accomplishments. And it sounded like, "Read my book coz of my previous accomplishments" rather than "read my cook coz of the story or the characters I've created."
That being said, I much prefer your newer one as it tells much more about the story and the characters and tells me what I'm getting into. And it sounds interesting and intriguing.
But I'm not an expert at blurbs, so I can't give an opinion on the word count and what the agents look for and such.
And one more thing I kinda noticed.
This might sound a little nitpicky but it's something to think about. I noticed your main character's name is Galen and your name is Glen (if you're publishing with Glen as author's name). hmmm... I know people who are turned off by that, like the lead character name sounding very close to author's name (example, Catherine and Kate... and yours sound a lot more obvious than that). Personally, it doesn't bother me that much and I've done that a lot too, in my short stories and my student games... Hell, I still do that to a degree(but I make sure it's not that obvious... haha). But I know of some people who will not read the book just for that sole reason of that. They kinda look at it like, "author inserting himself into the story" or "author tooting their own horn." I'm not sure, if Galen character is similar to you or if it's just the name. Regardless, there are people who might be turned off by that. If you use a less obvious name like Garry or George or something like that instead, you might get away with it.
Another pass for anyone still interested in the conversation. I focused almost entirely on the characters, giving just enough plot to (hopefully) inspire interest.I also cut out most references to elements that would require more explanation to be understandable.
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Most people found young Galen’s irrepressible imagination annoying, but not his mother. She delighted in it. Every night, they would escape their bleak lives into shared stories of bravery and magic. But then one evening, instead of weaving a tale, Galen's mother placed a single coin in his tiny hand, walked out the door, and disappeared into the forest. That was six years ago.
Now, an irresistible pull awakens in Galen and he, too, leaves home. His path leads to an ancient, forbidden temple, where the gods of Order locked Chaos away long ago. For centuries, Chaos called anyone with an affinity—story-tellers, artists, visionaries—waiting for the one who will free it. Most perish and leave their bones behind to decorate the vault.
Horace, an orphaned bully who has spent his life channeling his creativity into tormenting others, also hears the call. Legend claims that Chaos can make his dreams come true if he just frees it from the vault. Horace would do anything, sacrifice anyone, to bring someone he lost back from the dead. And now he’s convinced he can do it.
Narrowly avoiding death at Chaos’ temple, Galen discovers that adventure isn’t as fun as he thought. However, when he uncovers Horace’s plot, he has no choice but to use his strong connection to Chaos—helped by a mysterious character from his mother’s stories—to stop Horace before he can open the vault and possibly unmake reality.
THE CHILD OF CHAOS is a 115K-word young adult fantasy novel. It builds on my two and a half decades as a writer, designer, director, and executive producer of award-winning, narrative-driven computer games.
With the caveat that I feel all my previous suggestions remain relevant, I think this blurb is the most compelling.
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In a world of Order, Chaos can destroy everything—but one boy’s Chaos-inspired imagination may be the only defense against what’s coming.
THE CHILD OF CHAOS is a 115K-word young adult fantasy novel. It builds on my two and a half decades as a writer, designer, director, and executive producer of award-winning, narrative-driven computer games.
Locked away long ago by the gods of Order, Chaos calls its disciples to free it, and two childhood rivals answer: the storyteller and the sadist. Horace, a whip-smart bully, discovers that Order’s rules can’t stop someone who doesn’t play by them. So it falls to Galen, a starry-eyed fisherman’s son with boundless creativity, to keep Horace from opening the vault to use Chaos for his own ends. But are either the prophesied Child of Chaos? Only the true Child can choose if Chaos will bring about destruction or unleash unlimited possibilities.
I've had the honor to create new fantasy and science-fiction storylines that take established literary worlds into interactive games. I've collaborated with celebrated authors Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman (The Death Gate Cycle), Robert Jordan (The Wheel of Time), Frederik Pohl (Heechee saga), Terry Brooks (Shannara), and Piers Anthony (Xanth) to bring their creations to life. In addition, I've crafted licensor-approved fiction for the Star Trek franchise as well as Stan Sakai's epic graphic novel series, Usagi Yojimbo. Now I am expanding my narrative writing into my own original fantasy world.
My work has attracted a loyal following who has been anticipating my first original novel, THE CHILD OF CHAOS. The manuscript is complete and beta-tested with a range of my previous fans as well as new readers. I hope you will agree to review it.
I appreciate your time and consideration.