War and Peace, Book 11 through Epilogues- Fall- SPOILER THREAD

[Bonnie]

So I am ready to move on/through the last third of the book, so am posting this topic now for any others who are or are already done.

[Bonnie]

I'm finished- plenty of skimming the last part especially the epilogues, but I am sure I got the gist and read the stuff that mattered (IMO) more carefully. I'll come on here and post some quotes and comments and answer anything posted. I may be the last person still reading this though.

[Bonnie]

THE TEARFUL SPECTACLE of the battlefield, heaped with dead and wounded, in conjunction with the heaviness of his head, the news that some twenty generals he knew well were among the killed or wounded, and the sense of the impotence of his once mighty army, made an unexpected impression on Napoleon, who was usually fond of looking over the dead and wounded, proving thereby, as he imagined, his dauntless spirit.


I was surprised that this one battle made such a difference in him.

[Bonnie]

This event—the abandonment and burning of Moscow—was, after the battle of Borodino, as inevitable as the retreat of the army without fighting.


Such a disorganized war, and so useless.

[Bonnie]

IN THE GUARD-ROOM to which Pierre had been taken, the officer and soldiers in charge treated him with hostility, but at the same time with respect.


Enemy officers/upper class actually seemed to have more in common that they did with their own men.

[Bonnie]

PRINCE ANDREY did not only know that he would die, but felt indeed that he was dying; that he was already half-dead. He experienced a sense of aloofness from everything earthly, and a strange and joyous lightness in his being. Neither impatient, nor troubled, he lay awaiting what was before him.…


This is how I've seen people in their last days/on hospice too. Detached but not sad or scared.

[Bonnie]

Petya had been in a continual state of happy excitement at being grown-up, and of intense anxiety not to miss any opportunity of real heroism.


Very young men heading into wars.

[Bonnie]

The wound in the mother's heart could never be healed. Petya's death had torn away half of her life. When the news of Petya's death reached her, she was a fresh-looking, vigorous woman of fifty; a month later she came out of her room an old woman, half dead and with no more interest in life.


So true, of mother's I know who have lost a child.

[Bonnie]

My overall rating was 2 stars : I was surprised really that this book wasn't deeper than it was. Lots of cliche thoughts on war and relationships. The biggest part of the book was like a soap opera, with men who only seemed to have deep true relationships with other men they knew or their leaders. No idea how this became a classic.

[QNPoohBear]

Petya's death was so stupid and so heartbreaking! I forgot he existed until he ran off to join the "fun". Such a waste of a young life.

I thought Andrei had the best inner dialogue of the whole book, especially in moments when he thought he was dying/was dying.

My favorite characters are Pierre and Maria and I wished they had gotten together. Pierre needs someone to steady him.

The big question is .... did Hélène kill herself or did she die from a botched abortion attempt? Tolstoy was really hard on her. As awful as she was, she didn't deserve to die like that. I'm not shedding any tears over her or her sleazy brother though.

[Bonnie]

I thought Petya was so sad too, and so typical of very young men in so many war and times in history. His poor mother.

I did not like Pierre at all. They did insinuate through the gossips anyway that Helene (who I liked OK) killed herself.

I kind of liked Sonya and Andrei, but not a whole lot.

[Bonnie]

At larger gatherings every one repeated the official story that Countess Bezuhov had died of a terrible attack of angina pectoris, but in intimate circles people told in detail how the Queen of Spain's own medical attendant had prescribed to Ellen small doses of a certain drug to bring about certain desired results; but that Ellen, tortured by the old count's suspecting her, and by her husband's not having answered her letter (that unfortunate, dissipated Pierre), had suddenly taken an enormous dose of the drug prescribed, and had died in agonies before assistance could be given.

[Jacinta]

I just finished. I thought the last paragraph (prior to the epilogue) really captured the central theme of the novel:

"Only what's he going to Petersburg for!" Natasha said suddenly, and hastily answered herself: "No, no, it has to be so . . . Right, Marie? It has to be so . . . "

Natasha's initial reaction shows our need to ascribe reason to human behavior, while her ultimate "It has to be so . . . " suggests that such reasons are unknowable. An event occurs the way it does simply because it has to be so. This seemed to be Tolstoy's point about both wars and societal machinations.

[Jacinta]

Bonnie wrote: "At larger gatherings every one repeated the official story that Countess Bezuhov had died of a terrible attack of angina pectoris, but in intimate circles people told in detail how the Queen of Spa..."

I thought this part was surprising! It fits with the soap opera comparison everyone has been making...to me it was possibly the most soap operaish other than maybe the ultimate romantic pairings?

[Jacinta]

QNPoohBear wrote: "Petya's death was so stupid and so heartbreaking! I forgot he existed until he ran off to join the "fun". Such a waste of a young life.

I thought Andrei had the best inner dialogue of the whole bo..."

I thought Petya's death was predictable, but still really sad. And like Bonnie said...his poor mother.

I don't know if I really liked any of the characters much. I occasionally sympathized with some, but I was never deeply invested. For a while, I liked Natasha's charm and zest for life, but then that seemed to be all she had going for her - where was her depth?

[Bonnie]

Jacinta wrote: "I just finished. I thought the last paragraph (prior to the epilogue) really captured the central theme of the novel:

"Only what's he going to Petersburg for!" Natasha said suddenly, and hastily a..."

I didn't find any real deep meaning in this, but that makes sense, human behavior is often hard to understand or explain.

[Bonnie]

Jacinta wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "At larger gatherings every one repeated the official story that Countess Bezuhov had died of a terrible attack of angina pectoris, but in intimate circles people told in detail how t..."

It was surprising and I'd say not in character for Ellen- but we only know her superficially.

[Bonnie]

Jacinta wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "Petya's death was so stupid and so heartbreaking! I forgot he existed until he ran off to join the "fun". Such a waste of a young life.

I thought Andrei had the best inner dialo..."

yes, I don't really see much more to Natasha than Ellen or why Natasha was Tolstoy's ultimate heroine.

[Diane]

Just finished. I also rated it two stars. After two and a half months of reading it seemed like I would have been more invested in what happened to the characters. I also didn't feel like it had much of an ending after as long of a story as it was. Oh well. At least I can say I have read War and Peace now! That was about the only thing that kept me trudging forward,...

[Bonnie]

Jacinta wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "Petya's death was so stupid and so heartbreaking! I forgot he existed until he ran off to join the "fun". Such a waste of a young life.

I thought Andrei had the best inner dialo..."

I agree. I don't see anything that special about Natalie. She was agreeable and nice, pretty.

[Bonnie]

Diane wrote: "Just finished. I also rated it two stars. After two and a half months of reading it seemed like I would have been more invested in what happened to the characters. I also didn't feel like it had mu..."

Yep, I was glad I could say I read it too, but don't get why it's a classic and taught at Universities and such.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Bonnie wrote: "At larger gatherings every one repeated the official story that Countess Bezuhov had died of a terrible attack of angina pectoris, but in intimate circles people told in detail how the Queen of Spa..."

This scene, Helene's possible suicide, is the single wrong note in the entire book for me.

For me, though, this novel is a five-star read, as it encompasses all of the adventures and intellectual thought of all of general Mankind, using educated aristocrats from Russia from 1805-1820, who represent symbolically everything that has ever been thought by people from the ancients until now. When I was in school and college, or at work, from the age of 14 till now (in my sixties), I heard like people like the ones in the book (middle-class office workers instead of aristocrats) speaking and arguing of many of the same things as the people in the book, everybody reflecting their own past experiences with that of others as well as bringing in what they could only imagine, or not, ideas gleaned from watching the news and listening to speeches and arguments. For me, it began with the Vietnam war, and returned again with the Iraq war, my ages of 16 and 40, respectively, my views a bit refined because of experience and maturity. Days and days of me and my friends earnestly argued and giving our opinions on how the wars should be conducted, why the war happened, why it should or should not be conducted. Some people angry at all of the politics and wanting to talk about their children, others more interested in partying and hooking up, some thinking we are fighting for God's glory, others thinking it was only for Big Oil, some blaming politics, others patriotic defense of Freedom/capitalism/democracy. I have been now through five or six wars and skirmishes with which America has been involved, and the conversations I have with my circle is distressingly similar to those in 'War and Peace' - distressing because such conversations are clearly never ending....damn it.

[Bonnie]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "At larger gatherings every one repeated the official story that Countess Bezuhov had died of a terrible attack of angina pectoris, but in intimate circles people told in detail how t..."

I surely didn't like it that much, but your reasoning about why many see it as a great book is insightful.

[Cathy]

I've just started and am glad the chapters are short which helps to keep the action moving along. So far, I'm enjoying it but have only read the introduction and the first few chapters. The foot notes are super helpful...but I'm confused by the asterisks. Does an asterisk denote a real person or event from history? If there is a key somewhere explaining, I must have missed it in my version (Maude translation).

[Bonnie]

I didn't look for footnotes but maybe that's what the asterisks are. I read the first part quickly once I gave up trying to keep everyone straight and used the online spark notes thing to figure out who the main ones were.