The Robin Hobb Collection discussion
Book 14 - Fool's Assassin
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Fool's Assassin > Part 7: Chapter 31 - Epilogue & Overall Discussion (Full Spoilers)
Wastrel wrote: "Yes, Hobb does write gay characters. That does NOT mean that Fitz is going to have gay sex. Fitz is not gay. He's had, what, sixty years or so to work that out. Not only is Fitz not gay, but the bo..."Sexuality is mutable as far as I am concerned and NOT related to age. Men and women discover likes and dislikes throughout their lives. I wouldn't pigeonhole anyone in to expressing their love in a certian way because that is what is considered 'Normal'. I wouldn't pigeon hole Fitz into hetrosexuality because 'thats what he's been for sixty years'. Sure , he's sixty in earth years, but with the body of a 35 year old! That's kinda hot! ;-P I'm not saying he should don hotpants and go do a tavern crawl holding hands with Beloved. I don't think gay scenes would be anymore out of the blue than if Fitz started having sex with a female character. He's never been that sexual, and he's never lost himself completly, unless you count the merging with the Fool when he bought him back. But I don't think he's past it, and deserves whatever love he can get. Love is Love is Love. We know Fitz and Fool love each other deeply. Whatever way Robin allows them to express that love is fine by me, as long as they are together!
In reality, patterns of sexual attraction for men are largely fixed throughout adulthood. You can't generally 'cure' people of being gay by throwing pretty women at them until they give up - and likewise you can't generally cure people of not being gay by throwing pretty men at them. Sure, there are people who are in denial about their preferences for long periods of time... but in the case of Fitz it would be a very long period of time, with lots of motivation to 'switch', and never any hint over all that time of that being in any way even vaguely a possibility. Not to mention that with Nighteyes we/he had a direct and plain-speaking hotline into his subconscious, and not again to mention that the Fool himself has said he didn't think it was possible. So it would be COMPLETELY out of character - or at least require masses of work on Hobb's part to justify - for Fitz to suddenly become gay.It would be much more out of character than for Fitz to have sex with a woman. We've seen him have sex with at least three women (one serious, two mostly casual) and comment on other women in a sexualised way along the way. So sex with women is completely in character. Indeed, i'm not sure why you think he's not that sexual - he's always seemed pretty realistically typically male to me. It's just that he's always been very private and paranoid, and that, combined with loyalty to his Tragic Lost Love, and his pattern of life (either hermitage or too-busy-with-important-work), have gotten in the way of his sex life somewhat. But he has been having regular sex with women his whole life and been quite enthusiastic about it.
[I don't know what you mean by 'lost himself completely'. If you mean in a magical/psychological loss-of-self way, then he's done that continually - some godlike powers have even commented on how he obsessively tries to lose himself whenever he get the chance. If you mean metaphorically, in the sense of passionate love, then that certainly applies to his relationship with Molly - both in youth and in age, in different ways.]
Love isn't Love isn't Love. There are different ways to love people. For instance, Fitz also loves Bee, and Fitz used to love Nighteyes, and so on.
If the only reason to completely change what the books are about is "that's kinda hot!", I don't think that's a good enough reason. Like I say, there are plenty of porn books available from other authors, and there's nothing wrong with that, but not everything has to be driven by erotic appeal.
Mind you, I must admit I'm a little envious: if a man were to orient his book discussions around how hot it would be if the female friends in a book were to do each other and hey this book is rubbish they haven't done each other yet hey author why aren't they doing each other yet everyone here's my story about the hot chicks doing each other it's so hawt, he'd probably be ostracised!
[Iirc some research does suggest that sexuality may be a little more malleable for women, and/or that it may be based less fundamentally on the sex of a partner. But I think that's still controversial, and I don't know how robust it is.]
I don't think Fitz is gay (and Hobb has insisted he's not gay) but I think if the Fool insisted on a sexual relationship then Fitz might give in to make the Fool happy. But I don't see that happening because the Fool would never do that, and Fitz is aware of that.
I think it's just wishful thinking for many people that Fitz and the Fool hook-up...The only way any hook-up is ever going to occur is when they merge into a stone-wolf upon their deaths (which I can definitely see on the cards at the end of this trilogy). That way the three of them (Nighteyes, Fitz and the Fool) will be together as one forever more.
luisi wrote: "I don't think Fitz is gay (and Hobb has insisted he's not gay) but I think if the Fool insisted on a sexual relationship then Fitz might give in to make the Fool happy. But I don't see that happeni..."I think you're probably right that the Fool could force Fitz if he wanted (particularly now, when Fitz is both feeling guilty and extra vulnerable). And you're certainly right that the Fool wouldn't do that (not unless he's changed more than we think).
And that's the other aspect of this: no matter what it may say in romance/erotica novels, one partner having sex with someone they're not attracted to because they're essentially being emotionally blackmailed into it is not love.
I thought the Fool believes that sex isn't the culmination of love, and that the love itself is far bigger and more important than any physical relationship. He got extremely angry with Fitz in the tawny man trilogy for implying that sex had any sort of relevance to their relationship. If I'm remembering right, he got mad that Fitz would think to cheapen their bond by mentioning it. He does imply he's had sexual relationships in the past, but as they were in the middle of a bitter argument, that could have been a lie. Either way, I think the Fool makes it abundantly clear that although he loves Fitz and would probably welcome a physical aspect to their relationship, he is offended by the idea that Fitz would attach any actual importance to it. Considering how prickly the Fool gets around the topic of his gender and sexuality, I think its a subject Fitz wont even broach again. It seemed to me in the Fool's Assassin that he'd finally accepted the Fool's mystery as an essential part of who he is and was even comfortable with not knowing for sure. And the Fool is still as protective of his privacy as he's always been. I don't think its likely that the Fool will definitely be revealed as either male or female, or even both. It would be so disappointing if he did turn out to be female and he and Fitz got together. I think the element of tragedy to their relationship now, with their opposing orientations, is part of what makes it beautiful.
And there's no way Fitz is gay or is going to turn gay just for the Fool's benefit. It wouldn't make sense. He's always been a strong and well defined character and it would cheapen him to swing his sexuality the other way when there's been no hint of it in the past. I think a point Hobb has always made is that Fitz and the Fool's relationship goes beyond sex and in a way, transcends it.
I agree with all your comments Emma Jane. I would be hugely disappointed if the Fool did turn out to me female, I always think of him as a man and after all these years of believing so it would be difficult to get my head about that one. I don't think Robin will ever reveal the gender of the Fool either, and there's no need to really. Fitz does have a special relationship with the Fool, they're more than friends and deeply bonded but I don't ever believe Fitz would want a sexual relationship with the Fool. I remember the Fool in that same argument that you mention above saying that he just wanted Fitz, all to himself although he admitted that was never likely to happen. Like Alfred commented earlier in a post I do wonder why Robin put in the odd comments/observation from Fitz, about the Fools delicate feet for instance or his beauty? One of my favourite parts from the last book is when Fitz just slipped into bed alongside the Fool, after so many years apart it was just so natural for him to do so. Loved it!
I also agree entirely with Emma Jane.Em: I'd add, where you mention the Fool wanting Fitz all to himself, that this is exactly the sort of thing that all the books repeatedly establish is a Bad Thing. It is natural to want somebody all to yourself, but in reality they also belong to other people, and to themselves, and a relationship where somebody becomes wholly the possession of someone else - even in a loving way - is an evil thing. [Iirc this is spelled out explicitly regarding the Piebalds, but it's a recurring theme throughout Hobb's work]. The Fool is wise enough to know that while his impulse itself may not be evil, actually fulfilling it, even with Fitz's consent, would be failing to respect Fitz's own worth as a person. Particularly a problem since Fitz has a constant problem, since infancy, of trying to give himself away and become somebody else's possession. So while Fitz's revulsion at the thought of gay sex is of course not good in itself, the fact that he does have a line he won't cross with the Fool is probably a good thing, in terms of him being willing to assert his own identity separate from that of the Fool.
I agree that Fitz is (a) not gay (and unlikely ever will be) and that (b) Fool will never force Fitz to have sex. What Fool wanted was Fitz's whole heart. Which at the ending of Fool's Fate, Fitz wasn't able to give his heart to both Fool and Molly without causing a singular choice to be made at some point. In FA book 1, it would seem like Fool and Fitz have reached an impasse where their relationship is concerned i.e. no sex, all heart & soul, will die for one another.
However. With 2 more books to go (I believe the FA trilogy is truly Fitz and Fool's last hurrah, but that is another topic), it is conceivable that Fitz and Fool will confront this issue of their relationship at least one more time in book 2 or 3. Let's say for argument sake, they do save Bee, kill the servants and set the world on the right path again. And, live through all that.
Then what?
As Wastrel pointed out earlier, Fitz does have a man's sexual needs that he fulfills with a woman when opportunity and mutual attraction present themselves. Molly, Starling (in the mountains), Starling again (during exile), Jinna, then Molly again in 20 year marriage. Even when he was contentedly married to Molly and ardently slept with her, Fitz was not immune to pretty girls. Early in FA at the market with Molly, the young girl with the red shoes flirted with Fitz. He noticed that she was "young and pretty", and that her flirtation was "flattering and unnerving". He was cold to her after she insulted Molly, but the fact is, he is attracted to members of the opposite sex.
So, say after saving the world and Bee, the Fool and Fitz decide to finally be together on the basis of "no sex, just heart & soul". Can Fitz realistically, given his pre-disposition to the opposite sex, have a complete relationship with the Fool? Would the Fool be jealous when Fitz is flirted with by another woman? Would the Fool be fine if Fitz slept with someone else (a female) for the sex only since he cannot with the Fool? Recall in Fool's Errand, the Fool appeared almost jealous of Starling being Fitz's bedding partner during his exile and Fool had grilled Fitz quite a bit on Starling.
I agree that Robin will not turn Fitz miraculously gay or have any impossible sex scenes with Fool a "male" and Fitz so strongly heterosexual. All the above would be a big turn off to me as a reader because it would be so unbelievable.
So where does that lead the Fitz and the Fool? I dunno.. I guess both going into a future carved dragon to be together forever in spirit would resolve all this without ever needing to address Fitz's physical need! (Or, the Fool could be female - at the outcry of majority of fans- and that would also resolve this).
Just a long way to say that I agree with the last 5 to 6 posts here!
I really don't want sex to be an issue with Fitz and the Fool; I just want them to be domestic and raise Bee together. Thinking about it, their relationship is so awkward. While the Fool seems to be sexually attracted to Fitz, he doesn't need their relationship to be sexual but he also doesn't want Fitz to find sexual release with someone else. And that possessiveness is not onesided because the idea of the Fool sleeping with someone else seems to bother Fitz. But I think Fitz might value an emotional tie more than a sexual one, so I can see him being content with the Fool.
I really wanted a threesome of sorts between Molly, Fitz, and the Fool.
luisi wrote: "I really don't want sex to be an issue with Fitz and the Fool; I just want them to be domestic and raise Bee together. Thinking about it, their relationship is so awkward. While the Fool seems to..."
I'm delighted Molly's gone, she bugged the hell out of me! Sorry for Fitz and Bee though. Roll on August and Fools Quest!
When the Fool said he wanted the whole of Fitz's heart I think he just meant to love, he couldn't share him with Molly, not that he wanted to possess Fitz and didn't want him to see/be in contact with other people. *Gasp* the idea of a threesome with Molly Fitz and the Fool makes me feel queasy;) I was never a fan of Molly and didn't like the way she treated Fitz throughout all the books.
Am slowly re-reading FA. Am thinking out loud about how many readers have latched on to Robin's very clever word play of the Unexpected Son/Sun. The popular belief is that Bee is a White and she is also the Unexpected Son/Sun. However, the prophecy in chp 19 of FA seems to reference the Unexpected Son and White prophet as separate individuals."And in a time that no one expects, when hope is dead and White Prophets fled, in a place where he cannot be found, there will be discovered the Unexpected Son. He will not be known to his father, and motherless he will grow. He will be the pebble in the track that shifts the wheel from its course. Death will thirst for him, but time and again, that thirst will go unslaked. Buried and lifted, forgotten, unnamed, in isolation and disgrace, he will yet prevail in the hands of the White Prophet who wields him without compassion or mercy for the tool that must be dulled and chipped to shape a better world".
It seem pretty clear in the prophecy that the Unexpected Son is a Catalyst, separate from the Prophet. I am now revising my initial thought of Bee as the Unexpected Son and sticking to the Fool's original thought that Fitz is the Unexpected Son. The prophecy really does seem to describe Fitz.
Fitz's father never knew him in person, and he grew up without his mother. He has been near death a few times. He was also buried (this is a big hint?) after he died of torture and was lifted from the ground by Burrich, he had to forsake his Farseer name, and lived in exile for being reviled as a Witted. Bee, on the hand - her father knew her, she had Molly for at least 9 years, she has never been near death, buried, disgraced, isolated or forgotten. Ok, she goes by Badgerlock not her real name Farseer.
If Fitz is the Unexpected Son, then Bee cannot be the unexpected Son also. I think Robin was very clever to plant all these references of Bee looking like a boy (messenger, Shun). This is like a red herring within a red herring. So that at the end of FA when the servants mistook Bee for a boy - that brought a big AHA moment for readers who had earlier caught on to the son-sun word play. Perhaps Robin is herself going AHA! At having duped readers (including myself) into thinking Bee is the Unexpected Son. I think Fitz is really the catalyst/unexpected son all along.
Plus, I hate for the Fool to be wrong in his earlier thoughts that Fitz was the Unexpected Son!
(Like I said, I am just thinking out loud, and could be horribly wrong)
Alfred wrote: "Am slowly re-reading FA. Am thinking out loud about how many readers have latched on to Robin's very clever word play of the Unexpected Son/Sun. The popular belief is that Bee is a White and she..."I re-read the book too... and it was just as painful the second time! ;-D
I do think Fitz is the catalyst, and that the prophecy describes him to a tee. But also that Bee is a white prophet/ has a special gift. The descriptions of her physically and her visions/dreams so closely mirror young Fool at Buck Keep. Also Beggar Fool's reaction when his skin touches Bee's skin- the fact she gave him sight for those all too brief moments, and the fact that she has a kind of halo that made the servents recognise her as a white all point to her being special/gifted.
All prophecy offers is a 'possibility' for a future event.
The servents did a right brain fuck of a job on Fool- filling him with one story when he was a child, and when he returned, something else. At least were having fun trying to decipher what the hell is going on!
The problem with Bee being the Unexpected Son is twofold - first, what about her being a prophet (ahh, but do we know whether all white prophets are White Prophets? Or can there be, as it were, minor prophets along the way? And is Bee actually a White anyway? Or is she just half-White?), and more importantly, second, doesn't that make everything a red herring? I mean, the whole plot? It's not impossible, but I'm not seeing how that would work.That said, the prophecy seems too perfect a match for Fitz for that to be wrong. Just to fill in Alfred's gaps: Fitz was also 'forgotten' (his legend exists but FitzChivalry Farseer the man seems to have been forgotten), 'unnamed' (his real name was effectively taken from him*), and of course 'isolated'. The only slight question mark is 'in a place where he cannot be found', which perhaps is a bit of exaggeration when discussing a royal court!
some of this vaguely fits Bee (unknown to father = unknown to the Fool, her second father), and some of the rest could come to fit her later on. But it would seem a bit of a coincidence if the prophecy fit her just as well as it did her father, given how specific it seems.
*Oh, hang on, the whole 'FitzVigilant is kind of an arse' plotline is pointing out how FitzChivalry was actually kind of an arse in the first trilogy (from the point of view of a world-weary older man continually fed up with his arrogance, stubbornness and naivity, at least), isn't it?
The part 'in a place where he cannot be found' could apply to how he was supposed to blend in and not remind people of his parentage. Wasn't there supposed to be more than one prophecy about the Unexpected Son? The prophecy we know about seems to talk about a catalyst while the Servants seemed to have been trying to find a prophet, plus they also seem to be trying to breed them.
The Fool said that there aren't any Whites left, but that he had enough blood in him for his ancestry to show almost completely. So if we go by that, then there are probably some who are albino but don't have the gift of prophecy (like the messenger probably) and those who aren't albino but do have the gift (like Bee). I mean, I'm pretty sure Bee is not considered an albino since she's described as blond and blue-eyed(?). And I think the reason that the Servants recognized her was because they had another prophet (the fog-man with the foolish smile).
The whole White Prophet thing has become really confused after the last book. Before it seemed there was one White Prophet every few generations and I thought there was only one White in existence at a time, the White Prophet, working to set the world on the path they'd envisioned...then came the Pale Woman, and we found out that the Fool was an anomaly...another White born out of his time and the two were set against each other. Now there appear to be loads. Is it just that the Whites are more common than was hinted at? Or are they just part-Whites, with only a few genetic traits from their ancestors and so have no real relevance to the legacy of the White Prophet? Is it because the School at Clerres had been breeding them from the Pale Woman in an attempt to bring the Whites back into existence and under their control? Or were there more anomalies like the Fool and the White race is coming back into existence of its own accord? And is that because of the future the Fool set in motion? Are they in some way tied to the dragons and Elderlings? I can't work out what Bee's role is going to be. Maybe a mix of White Prophet and Catalyst, since she seems to be descended from both Fitz and the Fool somehow. Or maybe she's another Catalyst for the Fool. Or maybe she's there to give the Fool his lost prophetic vision back, so he can use her in turn to manipulate the fate using his catalyst, Fitz.
An odd thought is that he lost his visions after Fitz brought him back from the dead by inhabiting his body...maybe, somehow, Fitz kept a vestige of that power and it re-manifested itself in Bee?
I really have no idea...so far the hints are so tangled and contradictory that the story is open to a lot of different directions. In the meantime, I just want the Fool to go to Kelsingra. And for Fitz to meet Paragon, but I can't see that happening as it seems that Clerres will be the destination, eventually.
What would be interesting to know is what the Servants think about the dragons...maybe they did believe the Pale Woman's visions, that the world needed to end and the dragons stamped out, and they are now manufacturing power to "correct" the course of the world themselves by undoing the Fool's work.
Emma Jane wrote: "The whole White Prophet thing has become really confused after the last book. Before it seemed there was one White Prophet every few generations and I thought there was only one White in existence ..."'I just want the Fool to go to Kelsingra. And for Fitz to meet Paragon'....OMG! YES, YES, YES!
Fool must have the favour of Dragons because he helped save their race. Maybe a few drops of dragon blood would help heal him and restore his beauty, he would look wonderful with real irridescent blue scaling across his brow instead of Jamalian makeup...beautiful...and poetic, seeing as the rooster crown he fought so long to own,and that aided in his restoration, was filled with performers who had the favour of dragons...I always wanted Fitz to return there and see the city alive. Yes Fitz, take fool to kelsingra!
:-D
Scarletine wrote: "Emma Jane wrote: "The whole White Prophet thing has become really confused after the last book. Before it seemed there was one White Prophet every few generations and I thought there was only one W..."The Fool as an Elderling <3 Who even knows what effect dragon blood would have on him? It would be cool to see Bee with the dragons, too. Here's hoping that the last task Fitz and the Fool have to do is to protect Kelsingra from the Servants!
Emma Jane wrote: "Scarletine wrote: "Emma Jane wrote: "The whole White Prophet thing has become really confused after the last book. Before it seemed there was one White Prophet every few generations and I thought t..."Damn It Emma Jane...write that book! ;-D
Alfred wrote: "I think Fool lost his vision because his vision of bringing dragon (Icefyre) back has been fulfilled by Fitz..."You're right, the Fool said his work was done so his visions are no longer needed, but it could also be possible that the power was somehow passed through to Fitz to manifest in Bee. After all, the Fool wasn't sure and doesn't know enough about his own nature to say for certain why things happen. And the Fool had no future and so no visions, but in bringing him back to life Fitz would have forced fate to reorder itself to include the Fool (that was, after all, one of the Fool's reasons for leaving his catalyst) and inadvertently gave the Fool another task, it seems.
As he says himself, he needs to be able to see, so it makes sense that now he needs to see the future again, his power would try to find its way back to him. It just seemed to fit the idea in the prophecy that Bee is in part the Fool's child, that she's the manifestation of the visions he lost...and that's how and why she enables him to see again.
But it's only a theory ;)
"It was written that Cleres is very far south, and no skill pillar reaches that far. So he has to sail part of the way." That is true! There's hope that they will sail with the Paragon then. I really hope it happens.
Emma Jane - me too. A meeting between Fitz and Paragon would be fantastic read! And would Fool be Amber?Finished my re-read, and in theory I should be able to move on with regular life.. but dammit, here are a couple more thoughts for comments.
Still on Bee's dreams, this one is recurring with the same ending.
"This is the dream from the end of my time. I had dreamed it six different ways, but I will only write what always stays the same. There is a wolf as big as a horse. He is black and stands still as stone and stares. My father is as gray as dust, and old, so old. "I'm just so tired," he says in two of the dreams. In three he says, "I'm sorry, Bee." In one of the dreams, he says nothing at all, but his silence means everything. I would like to stop having this dream. It feels so strong, as if it must happen, no matter the path I choose. Every time I wake from it, it feels as if I have taken a step closer to a cold and dangerous place.
Suppose "end of time" means Bee's end of time as a White Prophet or her life. I would assume that by that time, she would know who her father was - Or.... who her fathers were. There are speculations that Fitz and Fool both fathered Bee. In this dream, she said "my father is as gray as dust, and old, so old". When I first read this (as most readers did), my immediate assumption was that "father" referred to Fitz. What if the "father" referred to the Fool? Robin used gray to describe the Fool a few times - Bee saw a "gray beggar", Fitz observed Fool's "gray pallor", occluded "gray eyes", Fitz washing off gray dirt from Fool's face...I don't know how clearly Bee saw faces in the dream... other than this was a recurring dream, maybe she just felt "the father" more than actually saw the face. So, if the Fool is the father in this dream, then the black wolf that stands still as stone may be Fitz. This goes with the speculations that Fitz carved a dragon and entered it. What if the Fool's repeated efforts to quicken the carving aka Fitz was futile? Hence the "I'm just so tired" and "I'm sorry, Bee" comments in the dream. And, hence the latest title (just named) for Book 3 "Assassin's Fate".
On Shun - there is general speculation that she is a bastard of Chade. Seems too obvious in the story... with Chade giving her his last name of Fallstar and being protective of the brat that she is. I wonder... if FitzVigilant is also Chade's bastard. Supposedly, Lant's mother was Laurel and his real father acknowledged him. Still, in the scene where Fitz asked Chade to find out if Laurel had birthed a son, Chade's immediate reaction was walling up and he went silent for a beat. He is also protective to Lant for a reason. That would make Lant and Shun siblings.. hope they don't cross the line ala Jamie-Cersei.
Argh. Another 8 months to the next FA book 2. GRRM's 6th book ASOIAF can't come soon enough, if at all this year.
Surely TWOW won't be this year?Interesting idea about Lant - I hadn't thought of that. Not convinced, but interesting.
Regarding the dream: the interesting thing I think is that 'I'm so tired' and 'I'm sorry, Bee' are presumably significantly different possible futures. I seem to remember the Fool talking about seeing all the different possible futures but only seeing one where Fitz survived. Well, here I guess Bee is seeing all the different possible outcomes for her own life-quest, and since there's only one where Father is silent I'm assuming that's the Good one. The other two answers would be two different, more likely, outcomes. Unfortunately, too early to say much about what these could entail.
Thinking about this, though, is making me more and more eager for this not to be the last trilogy. If Bee is introduced, becomes a prophet, saves the world, and has one or more of her fathers die, all in the span of three books (vs say the six books and 40-odd years of the Fool's quest up to Aslevjal), that would feel a bit artificial to me. I hope that these prophecies aren't fulfilled until a later trilogy.
[Although I don't think we'll see much or anything of F&F after this one - maybe one of them survives as an aged mentor, but I'm guessing this is the end of them as the main characters].
I don't really care about Fitz meeting Paragon. I am, however, keen to see Fitz meet the elderlings at Kelsingra, and keen for any chance to see Althea/Malta/Wintrow again.
Wastrel wrote: "Surely TWOW won't be this year?"One can hope but nah, seriously doubt it. GRRM writes so slowly, we'll likely get to the end of the TV series adaptation before TWOW.
I am with you on this - the F & F story ends with this FA trilogy. Book 3 is called Assassin's Fate after all. Like Fool's Fate with Fool dying, presumably Fitz "dies" in book 3 and surely Robin can't pull the same resurrection trick again!
You're right it would be artificial for Bee's life to be condensed in just 3 books... especially given how Robin likes to slowly and thoroughly develops her characters. As much as I love to read about Bee, the F&F are still the central characters and heart of the story for me. I hope for books 2 & 3, she gives F&F lots of meaningful airtime before snuffing them out for good.
I hope you're right about the dream prophecies happening far, far into the future! My guess is Robin will continue to write future trilogies depending on reader responses to Bee et al. Robin has certainly set the stage for it with the alternate POV. If Robin includes even more POV in books 2 & 3, I think we can be sure that her plan is definitely to retire F&F, and usher in the new in the next trilogy...
So far, I am intrigued enough to want to read future trilogies but must admit that other than Bee and Per, I cannot root for Shun and Lant who are so far, just annoying. Generally, I have reservations about stories featuring the next generations (e.g. Margaret Weis Tracy Hickman Dragonlance Chronicles and Dragonlance Legends, both excellent read if you haven't read them but the "magic" was lost with the ensuing trilogies featuring next gen).
Anyway, back to the Paragon and Fitz meeting- Haha, how can you not care?? That meeting would have lots of people (me included) crying or laughing. Surely Robin cannot resist writing that meeting. But, each to their own.
I think Robin said in a recent interview that FA trilogy will tie characters and events across Realm of the Elderlings. In the last 13 books about Realm of the Elderlings, she had written these characters doing their separate things apart. I think books 2 & 3 will converge the main characters from Kelsingra, Bingtown, Buck, even Cleres into one explosive focal point. So, Wastrel, you may have your wish after all.
I might actually read Rain Wild Chronicles next to fill the gap till Aug. See you folks at the other spoiler discussion in a few months.
[I have a slightly skewed perception of Dragonlance: I actually started with the Fifth Age stuff and then went back to the originals. In any case, yes the earlier books are much better (iirc) but a lot of that is due to general declining quality over time, rather than specifically the turnover in characters, imo. (I did like Summer Flame, incidentally. Mostly.)]About Fitz and Paragon: it doesn't excite me because I don't see what they have to say to each other. They look similar - but their lives don't really overlap much beyond that. [They could have interesting conversations about child abuse, sure, but that doesn't seem like the sort of thing they'd talk about in a casual meeting!]
Whereas Fitz and the guys at Kelsingra may have no overt connection, but it could be an exciting meeting. The Kelsingra posse are so arrogant, so convinced of their superior knowledge, but Fitz (a barbarian in their eyes) actually knows a whole bunch of stuff about the world that they don't. On the other hand, he's likely to be shocked/awed and frightened of their strangeness. So there's a lot of opportunity for mutual learning and/or instant enmity. Fun!
Althea and Fitz together would just be funny, though sadly it would be funnier from Althea's POV I think.
"Fitz and the guys at Kelsingra may have no overt connection, but it could be an exciting meeting" - Last time I read the Rain Wild Chronicles I was dying for Fitz to show up - I think the little details left behind from his visit in the first trilogy, like the broken tower window and remains of a fire that Alise blamed on Rapskal...I was dying for him to arrive then! Not that it would have made any sense for him to do so...his absence felt huge though. I agree totally, he's discovered so many secrets and is so much responsible for the dragons and elderling's existence there that it would be great to read about how both parties react to each other. Also, the Fool planned to re-introduce dragons and die in the attempt, so now that Fitz brought him back it may be interesting to see what he makes of the situation at Kelsingra and face the consequences of what he planned for the world, good or bad. I want a Fitz and Paragon meeting mostly to see Fitz's reaction to the Fool's carving of him. And I'd like the Fool to become Amber again whilst interacting with the Liveship characters, also to see Fitz's reaction. I think, despite his love for the Fool, it would freak him out and he'd be alienated from Amber the way he was with Lord Golden, but then he'd also have the Liveship characters judging him for it because they know about the Fool's/Amber's feelings for him. All of that while sailing on Paragon, a plainly visible testament of the Fool's love for him...well, it would be quite a tense, awkward situation for Fitz and I'm interested to see how he'd handle it now. I can imagine how the younger Fitz would react, and it involves a lot of sulking. It would also be interesting to see how the Fool would cope. Obviously, for that to happen, the Fool would have to be restored to his former self and I'm not sure that will be allowed to happen.
I'd also love to know if Fitz has made any connection between the new trading city of Kelsingra and the abandoned city he visited in the search for Verity. Honestly, I wondered why he didn't seem more interested in a new city of dragons and Elderlings in the last book, considering how closely his life has been tied to the mysteries those races had left behind. Kelsingra only got a passing mention. I know his life is supposed to be far more insular now and he's left it all behind to be with Molly, but he's still a curious man. That didn't really add up for me. So seeing his real reaction to it now that Molly's gone and the Fool is back...it was a big part missing from the last book.
Emma Jane wrote: ""I'd also love to know if Fitz has made any connection between the new trading city of Kelsingra and the abandoned city he visited in the search for Verity. Honestly, I wondered why he didn't seem more interested in a new city of dragons and Elderlings in the last book, considering how closely his life has been tied to the mysteries those races had left behind. Kelsingra only got a passing mention. I know his life is supposed to be far more insular now and he's left it all behind to be with Molly, but he's still a curious man. That didn't really add up for me. So seeing his real reaction to it now that Molly'g gone and the Fool is back...it was a big part missing from the last book."
You hit the nail on the head there Emma Jane! I rememeber reading the intro on Amazon before the book was released- and it mentioned a messenger and blood at withywoods. To me it sounded like a messenger had been eaten by a dragon, and that dragons were now hostile in the six duchies. But no...wishful thinking on my part!
It had been a whopping 20 years since they bought back dragons and Kelsingra had been reborn. I did not get Fitz's complete disinterest in the city he visited- and the fact that the silver was the source of all magic in the Realm. It was baffling that so many years passed and Fitz had become so insular that he wasn't even intrigued enough to visit. All he went though with the Fool to bring back dragons and he never had an ounce of curiosity to follow it up? It didn't make sense at all. It was like Molly had sucked the life out of him. He didn't actually seem 'happy' with her. He just kind of gave up trying for anything else.
Quite the opposite: why continue doing all the things you don't enjoy but only do because you can't stand to sit still, when you're happy sitting still?Fitz has always been xenophobic and prone to retreating into isolation - his time with Molly was much more cosmopolitan and healthy than his time alone in the cottage! Duty and boredom have forced him to travel, but he's always been quite negative about that, and he made clear a long time ago that his travelling days were done. [The only voluntary travel he's ever done was a couple of years of not knowing what to do with his life after the end of Assassin's Quest]. He's always been someone who would much rather read about places than go there - but he's also come to see reading about far-off places and magical events as being about Duty. After everything he's done for the crown, he refuses to become the new Chade, so he intentionally ignores anything that to him feels like taking over Chade's job. Chade chastises him for this at some point, I think.
I guess when your job is politics, anything political feels like going back to your job, and Fitz has retired...
[But just when he thought he was out...]
Scarletine wrote: "Emma Jane wrote: ""I'd also love to know if Fitz has made any connection between the new trading city of Kelsingra and the abandoned city he visited in the search for Verity. Honestly, I wondered w..."I agree totally! In a way, it was nice that he finally had the simple life that he craved, but not to the extent that it completely disengaged him from who he is and his background. It was like the other books hadn't happened, he was so disinterested. He barely saw any of his old friends and family, and his life at Withywoods was really another self-inflicted exile. That was my biggest gripe with Molly, that she seemed less of a long lost love and more like a missed opportunity for Fitz to bury his head in the sand.
I quite like that aspect though, because Fitz does tend to exile himself whenever the Fool leaves. He only really lives when the Fool returns. His half-life at Withywoods with Molly mirrored the half-life he lived in the cabin with Nighteyes, only rather than Girl on a Dragon being to blame for storing his painful memories, it's the Fool's absence that causes Fitz to close himself off. So perhaps, with the Fool again, he'll be brought back to himself enough to find out about Kelsingra and its secrets.
I want a Fitz and Paragon meeting mostly to see Fitz's reaction to the Fool's carving of him. ...I think, despite his love for the Fool, it would freak him out and he'd be alienated from Amber the way he was with Lord Golden..."With you on this, Emma Jane! It's not the conversation between Fitz and Paragon that will be interesting, it's the conversation between Fitz and Fool/Amber on seeing Paragon. Actually, it would be VERY interesting if Fool puts on his Amber facet, which will make Fitz see Fool in a completely new light as a woman. Let's see how he handles that! It'll be interesting to read how Fitz deals with all the type A characters (Jek, Althea etc..) while being stuck in a ship during the journey, and reacts to a likeness (Paragon) who is even more melancholic and sulky than Fitz is.
On healing Fool so he can become Amber... Maybe he is progressively healed as he gains strength during the journey (starting with the poison, sight, broken bones, scar.. etc..). Maybe the scars stay.. since that is the least life threatening.. imagine an Amber with scars.
In FA, Fitz always seemed to have to try very hard to convince himself that he was "contented". Supposedly he has everything he has ever wanted - Molly, home, children, peace, acceptance by Buck Keep. He declared himself "content" at least 3 or 4 times in the first few chapters e.g. to Web (when Web was trying to get Fitz to consider bonding again, calling Fitz an "echo"), to himself multiple times, told Molly that if she was happy, then he was content etc... Somewhere in the book, Fitz realized he has been suppressing his Wit as much as possible over the last 20 years. I think he was so determined to be contented that he kept deceiving himself on what he really longed for ultimately. He should have clued himself in by why he continues to need a private den, to write journals he has to burn after, reading old scrolls to search for answers etc..
Consider how quickly he went into killer mode when someone spilled blood in his house, when he gave the messenger and the dog swift deaths. He just acted on his assassin instincts when he does not over-think too much.
Emma Jane's "Fitz does tend to exile himself whenever the Fool leaves. He only really lives when the Fool returns". That is so true. With the Fool, I think Fitz is comfortable with his true self and never needed to convince himself he is content or to lie to himself and others about how he feels (e.g. he lies to Molly a lot).
At Withywoods, he was living in a bubble of perceived contentment for 20 years... Which I don't begrudge him. While it may be exciting for us to have Fitz exploring lost cities and chasing after dragons, he may actually really needed a break from these life changing, life threatening adventures.
However, with Molly dead, Bee abducted, Fool tortured, I think Fitz's self-imposed dormancy has definitely ended. That's the beauty of Robin's writings.. she thoroughly builds up the characters' motivations. I mean, the previously non-violent Fool now wants to kill and Fitz's inner Wolverine is awakened.
At the end, I would love to see Fitz and Fool go magic ablazing with their allies and dragons to wipe out the servants. And, for them to do this as their true selves in the open (which has not happened yet in all 14 books). For Fool to be Beloved the White Prophet in his entirety and not just showing one facet of himself, and for Fitz to be FitzChivalry Farseer with all his Skill & Wit in full force without hiding behind Tom Badgerlock, the sheep farmer.
That was one of the things I disliked in FA, how Fitz was so detached from his former life that he almost never saw his other friends and relatives. It was kinda upsetting to see that he doesn't even seem to know his grandkids (at least we never met them). It also sometimes felt like RH had a checklist when she mentioned or showed an old character because it kinda felt disjointed. And I think it was a waste how she never showed Hap because he seemed to be the only relative, apart from Molly of course, that Bee felt comfortable with.A road trip where Fitz meets the characters from the other books would be interesting, but that means that I should probably read TRWC. I kinda didn't want to because these days I have a short attention span and those books are long.
I'm sorry, but are you guys saying that the Rain Wilds Chronicles is too long? Those books are like half the length of one of Robin's normal books.
Alfred wrote: "luisi wrote: "That was one of the things I disliked in FA, how Fitz was so detached from his former life that he almost never saw his other friends and relatives..."Agree that the appearance of o..."
For me the first half of Fools Assassin was filler. It felt to me like Robin Had a story to tell, that could have been told in 2 books. The intimacy between the characters (all happily in Chades bedroom!) was completly lost. With such a rich bunch of personalities to play with the whole chapter was a disapointment.
TRWC starts out slowly, but it really isn't long. By the time you get to midway through book 2 you'll be gagging for book 3! ;-D
So August 11th 2015 is the confirmed release date according to amazon - only another six months before some of our questions get answered!
Or a couple of months only, for everybody who isn't me. [Since it seems like everybody in the world got an ARC last year]
So. Just finished RWC. **SPOILERS ON Rain Wilds BELOW **I kept having this recurring thought about Fool's Fate where Fool died and Fitz freed Icefyre so that dragons and Elderlings can come back. That did seem rather pointless sacrifice since the dragons managed just fine without help from Tintaglia and Icefyre in RWC. David Sven's butterfly effect explanation in the RWC discussion is the the only plausible one I can agree on. But man. The Fool sure died for a very fuzzy reason.. wondered if he actually saw how oblique the chain of reactions was from Fitz's catalytic actions.
For his sake, I sure hope that the Fool finds out in later Fitz/Fool books about the thriving dragons and growing population of Elderlings. This will restore his faith in Fitz as catalyst and himself as the white prophet, a belief that has been tortured out of him.
Fool-Fitz/Sedric-Carson - Some readers (like me) felt that Robin copped out in writing about Fitz-Fool's sexual relationship. Always hinted at but never consummated. Their highly-charged "beyond sexual coupling" encounters were always via Skill-links, never in the actual deed. (Keeping Fool's gender hidden forever and writing a nebulous sexual relationship for Fitz-Fool are also a cop out in my mind but that is a different discussion)
I think Robin tries to make up for that by writing Sedric-Carson, who were openly gay and loving large. Sedric reminded me a lot of Fool in terms of his slightly built physique, beautiful looks, cultured taste and vulnerability. Carson reminded me also of Fitz in terms of his muscled man physique, manly hunter attributes and loving sensitivity. The scene where Sedric was sobbingly consoled by Carson (after failed attempt to kill himself) was reminiscent of FF, where Fitz was holding a crying Fool after his death trauma.
One final unrelated bugging thought - why did the Fool not ask Fitz about the son/sun? Since he supposedly escaped the servants at great costs to seek his son/sun. In Chade's room, Fool had plenty of opportunity to privately ask Fitz who that child was and where he/she was.
Like the last two posters said... just months to go for more answers!
Alfred wrote: "So. Just finished RWC. **SPOILERS ON Rain Wilds BELOW **I kept having this recurring thought about Fool's Fate where Fool died and Fitz freed Icefyre so that dragons and Elderlings can come bac..."
I don't think Fool died for a fuzzy reason. It was the whole 'there can only be one white prophet in a generation' thing. The pale woman would never let him live and mess up her plans,and he knew he would die because thats where his visions ended.
I like your comments in the fitz/fool Sedric/Carson relationships. Like you, the hints that were never consumated between fitz/fool were such a disapointment. Reading of sederic/carson gave me hope, because Robin CAN write believeable gay characters who love openly. Why won't she give this to Fitz/fool? Why does she make everything so difficult for them? Surely they both deserve a bit of sweet lovin' and some peace!
As for 'why did the Fool not ask Fitz about the son/sun?' Yes, that whole scene was clinical and uninformative. The lack of EVERYTHING in that scene was stark. It could have been an amazingly beautiful chapter of reconnection, but Fitz was even too daft to explain to his BLIND friend what the layout of the room was!
It will all become clear in a few months i'm sure! ;-D
It was the whole 'there can only be one white prophet in a generation' thing. The pale woman would never let him live and mess up her plans,and he knew he would die because thats where his visions endedNot sure I quite agree, I think in his prophecy he saw his death as part and parcel of bringing the dragons back...Since he was determined to bring the dragons back, he was willing to die for the prophecy to come true.
But I do agree the Fitz Fool reunion - as heart melting and wrenching it was - left me with more questions!
On RWC, I have some thoughts over at the RWC Blood of Dragons final chapters discussion. Happy to get your thoughts.
Alfred wrote: "It was the whole 'there can only be one white prophet in a generation' thing. The pale woman would never let him live and mess up her plans,and he knew he would die because thats where his visions ..."Could you copy and paste a link to that discussion please Alfred, I'll be looking for an age otherwise! :-)
Look Ladies and Gents!!We have cover art and blurb for Fools Quest!
What a super hot cover. Looking good with the battle axe there Fitzy Fitz, all is forgiven...Swoon!
Fool's Quest
I spotted that the other day and to tell you the truth I'm a bit disappointed with the cover. Looks a bit bland and what is going on with Fitz's face:D
Em wrote: "I spotted that the other day and to tell you the truth I'm a bit disappointed with the cover. Looks a bit bland and what IS going on with Fitz's face:D"Ah, come on...he's like, 80 or something...and appears to be standing a stride some type of slayed monster...he's allowed a grimace! :-p You know we are going to get a Jackie Morris medieval script cover here...lovely as they are I do like the muscles on Fitz in that cover!
So glad I don't have to get US covers - it's not a romance novel for El's sake! [Plus: guy-with-bladed-implements-by-himself is incredibly cliche, and the art is just ugly.]That said, I am intrigued by the wings there. Surely it's hard to imagine Fitz bonding to a bird, of all creatures? Does it suggest someone bird-bonded is coming with him? Webb? Did Swift have a bird, does anyone remember? [Yay! A family outing!]
Hmmm, ok from a distance but still not liking the face! Wonder what the bird wings are behind Fitz though;)
With you on this, Em - not liking Fitz's face! He does not even look like the same guy in book 1 Fool's Assassin. And, since Fitz is not supposed to age due to the Skill, so he should not look significantly older between book 1 and 2. I too am wondering about the wings... Webb's gull was dying or dead and Swift had a bird. I seem to recall in the book that birds were not ideal for bonding because they were easily distracted and had flighty thoughts ... (could not resist writing that..). I can see why Robin would choose to write about a bird (aerial based, tends to travel alone, ability to cross the sea), which would present a completely different perspective from a wolf's (hunter, pack mentality, land-based, carnivorous etc..). I can be convinced. Well, anything is better than the cat please!
Or, maybe Bee bonds with a bird?
Or, the wings may not mean anything per se. Book 1 showed the buck antlers, which just seemed to reference the Farseer or Fitz's charging buck.
Given Hobb's penchant for both physical and emotional pain... I wouldn't put it past her to let poor imprisoned Bee bond with an unfettered bird that visits her jail cell... (although I'm expecting Bee to actually be in a sort of james bond have-dinner-with-blofeld eventually-you-will-join-us sort of captivity rather than actually locked in a dungeon, but you never know).
Maybe Fitz bonds with a bird?...or maybe during Fools attempted skill healing he gets some of Fitz's wit and bonds with a bird to be his eyes!...I hope not, I want Fool to see with his own eyes again.
Alfred wrote: "With you on this, Em - not liking Fitz's face! He does not even look like the same guy in book 1 Fool's Assassin. And, since Fitz is not supposed to age due to the Skill, so he should not look si..."Exactly, I think it's daft with all the effort taken with the book covers and they can't even get Fitz's face to look the same. His nose looks like a potato!
The wings - they do seem to be a part of Fitz and yeah maybe he will finally bond with another animal again, a bird? I would love to see that happen. It's about time!
Em wrote: His nose looks like a potato! Heehee xD I agree though, the art is bad, it looks all heaped on. And that isn't Fitz...where's his white streak, his battle scars? and the wings are at a weird angle and it's annoying me a bit.
They look like bird of prey wings...an Eagle or a Kestrel or something, but I don't think Fitz will have a bird partner. Burrich always said the hawks didn't like him. If he's truly desperate, he might force a bond to send it after Bee, but I don't think he'd go that far.
It could have something to do with the signia of his enemies this time around, or maybe somebody thought he just looked more epic with a pair of lopsided wings behind him...
I would recommend you to read the Rain wild Chronacles, If you haven't already Alfred. it will put a few things in context.
I think they grilled Fool because he was the 'current' white prophet. The pale woman was dead, and they didn't know that Prilkop was even alive still before he returned to Clerres with Fool. The prophecy was written by him, wasn't it? I'm sure he said he wrote it when he was a child and after all his abuse/tattooing he did a runner and eventually came upon the court of King Shrewd and then Fitz...and realised Fitz fits! As far as I can recall there can only be one White prophet at a time- the servants originally believed the pale woman to be the white prophet so put less time into Fools prophecies. When she died they may have realised his were of more portent. I don't think all whites are prophetic. Remember Fool said there are scarce few true whites left... and that they had told him only what they thought he needed to hear...so i'm sure there are plenty of revelations about the true nature of the servants and their use of the whites.
Bee's dreams, like fool's are prophecies. Ican't remember the exact content of most of her dreams apart from Fitz carving a stone wolf. I really don't want him to end that way. I want him and fool to go into the witness stones together.