The Robin Hobb Collection discussion
Book 14 - Fool's Assassin
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Fool's Assassin > Part 7: Chapter 31 - Epilogue & Overall Discussion (Full Spoilers)
Linnea wrote: "LittleRed wrote: "Linnea wrote: "What do you think about Bee's magics? So you think that she doesn't have the Skill, or that she doesn't have the Wit or neither?"
She could have both, and she has the power of the visions of a a white prophet. She is a force to be reckoned with. Probably the most powerful female in the realm of the Elderlings. Lets hope she kicks some servant ass for what they did to Beloved! ;-)
Finally finished it (having kids has definitely stunted the pace at which I can read). Very good book. I actually quite enjoyed Bee's POV, although at first it seemed a little sacreligious for Fitz to have to share first-person rights with some other character, even if it is his daughter.I think Bee is definitely Skilled, Witted, and a White Prophet. Pretty badass, actually. Also, I think the Servants have misunderstood one of their prophecies. Bee's not the "unexpected son," she's the Unexpected Sun. In Chapter 29: Mist And Light, when the Fool and Bee first touch, Bee's prophetic powers explode, and the Fool's sight, and presumably his prophetic powers, return to him. At this point, the Fool cries out:
I can see! My sight has come back to me. I can see! Oh, my light, my sun, where have you come from? Where have you been?
I think Bee is maybe some sort of super-White Prophet, the Prophet to end all Prophets, or something.
Bryan wrote: "Finally finished it (having kids has definitely stunted the pace at which I can read). Very good book. I actually quite enjoyed Bee's POV, although at first it seemed a little sacreligious for Fi..."Bryan, I totally agree with you on the point, that Bee is an unexpected Sun, I also paid attention to the Fool's exclamation. But she was obviously fathered by him too (as well as by the Nighteyes), since she is White. Maybe, other prophets had dreams in which they saw a small child and by his looks (we do remember, that many people thought Bee was a boy, judging by the way she looked) they decided he was someone's son, not daughter.
I also believe, that the sight was taken from Fool as well as from the butterfly messenger on purpose, to block them from seeing Bee and recognizing in her an unexpected son or White Prophet. So, I think in "Fool's Quest" that will come out next year, Fool will be healed and have his sight back...too late to see Bee...
Bryan wrote: "Finally finished it (having kids has definitely stunted the pace at which I can read). Very good book. I actually quite enjoyed Bee's POV, although at first it seemed a little sacreligious for Fi..."Wow! How did I miss that - what a great observation! I thought I was taking my time with the book, fully absorbing everything, but obviously not:)
Bryan wrote: "Finally finished it (having kids has definitely stunted the pace at which I can read). Very good book. I actually quite enjoyed Bee's POV, although at first it seemed a little sacreligious for Fi..."On touching her ,the fool was seeing through Bee's eyes,I don't think his own eyesight had been returned, it was vision through her eyes and the inner sight. I do think that the prophecy was misinterpreted- that's the problem with prophecy- one word out and you're sent in a completly different direction! Unexpected SUN, would make sense- as she is probably witted, skilled and a white. She's a powerful ball of energy. As of yet she has no idea of the strength of her powers. I'm sure they will intensify as she grows and learns to harness them. I think the servants have their hands full with young Bee. Maybe by the time Fitz and the Fool find her she'll have opened a can of whoop ass on the servants.
Is the new book deffinitely called 'Fools Quest'?
LittleRed wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Finally finished it (having kids has definitely stunted the pace at which I can read). Very good book. I actually quite enjoyed Bee's POV, although at first it seemed a little sacre..."Yes, Robin Hobb said it herself, and that the book hasn't been finished yet.
http://webnews.sff.net/read?cmd=read&...
Fool's Assassin, Fool's Quest... makes me wonder what the last one will be - Royal Fool? Golden Assassin? Assassin's Fate? This 're-use the words from older titles' thing certainly suggest she's not planning on these characters lasting beyond this trilogy...[Also: dear lord Hobb is terrible at titles. How can someone so talented be so awful at putting together two or three words in a dramatic and memorable way?]
EDIT: oh, wait, no, it's going to be "Fool's Apprentice" surely, isn't it?
it's going to be "Fool's Assasin's Apprentice's Fate"
Wastrel wrote: "Fool's Assassin, Fool's Quest... makes me wonder what the last one will be - Royal Fool? Golden Assassin? Assassin's Fate? This 're-use the words from older titles' thing certainly suggest she's no..."'Fool's Apprentice'..perfect for the third book. That would be Bee's fate! ;-)
Of course the Fool lives...I am afraid now it's turn for Fitz to suffer or even die...
After the end Fool's Assassin I'm worried the Fool will be killed off, that it's too late to heal him. Also, if he does manage to live I don't see how he can go with Fitz to help find Bee in his poor state of health. I hadn't even considered about Fitz! My heart couldn't take either of them dying.
The Fool repeated to Fitz several times "I am tougher than you think". So, I think the skill healing should definitely remove poison from his body and heal his eyes, but if it doesn't work for his broken bones and if his crippled legs won't allow Fool to travel by earth, he can always travel by a horse... Let's all hope that by the end of the Fool's Quest the both heroes will be alive and on their way to find and save Bee from the Servants. I think the Fool will lead Fitz all the way down to the south, to his School, since he is the only one who knows the way there...
Yes, lets hope, I'm keeping everything crossed. I saw your link mentioning the title to book 2, Fool's Quest, but where does it say about the title to the 3rd book?
well, about the title to the 3d book...it was suggested by Wastrel. check previous comments :)
That 'I'm tougher than you think' line was mentioned too many times for it to not have some 'relevance' to how he deals with the skill healing. We know Fool is not 'human', what we don't know is what is different about his body. He hasn't been skill healed before-(has he?) his resurrection was by the wit.
He has been healed by the skill right after Fits stubbed him a number of times. Fitz: "I summoned skill strength I scarcely knew I posessed and breached his defenses..". So he stopped the bleeding and heald the wounds... Thus, the Fool is OK with the skill healing
Ah yes, silly me! He was healed by the skill when he was stabbed!...What about that Skill student Nettle called over to run her hand over the fool and 'see' what was wrong with him without actually touching him. That was a new one! We don't yet know how the increased knowledge from the skills scrolls will be used or what effect it will have!...This new book cannot come out quick enough!
who knows what increase of skill-healing mrs Hobb can take out of the hat. it could be anything, beginning with Fitz remaining young and full of strength and ending with... Who knows, maybe after skill healing is applied, the Fool will have even his knocked out teeth grow... sorry, just kidding...I am sure, Hobb will cure the Fool engough to let him travel as far as it takes.
The Fool seemed to be improving more and more as time went on, one minute he was tired, then next he wanted something to eat. Then, when you think he would just want to sleep, he wanted to chat! It may have just started off a healing process chain reaction:)
I think that improving was due to Riddle's strength he received while travelling through skill-pillar and food and the sence of being safe among friendsThe poison was still spreading in his body and that's what could cause him to die soon.
By the way, I have some wild thought abouth the Prilkop. I remember how he led the Fool and the Fitz right to the hall where the Pale Woman's servants caugth them. Then, when after a while they let Fitz go and he exited the cave somewhere in the darkness and snow , he saw Prilkop and followed him... how did Prilkop know what to do and where to lead our heroes if he wasn't the prophet anylonger and neither was he the Cathalyst...maybe he made the Fool go with him to Clerres, maybe that was his goal? Answering to Fitz's question Fool said, that the Prilkop disappeared all of the sudden...that made me feel even more suspicious of the Prilkop that I did before.
Tanya wrote: "By the way, I have some wild thought abouth the Prilkop. I remember how he led the Fool and the Fitz right to the hall where the Pale Woman's servants caugth them. Then, when after a while they let..."I recall wondering why Prilkop lead them through the ice tunnels directly to the Pale womans guards..and then lead Fitz back to the camp after. Later in his 'cave', he said that he couldn't intervene- not help nor hinder. He was not a 'changer'. But he did! I didn't like how the fool was manipulated into leaving Fitz, Prilkop saw how intertwined they were, and in his vulnerable state, Fool was easy to meld to his way of thinking. I don't necessarily think he was doing the Fool a goodness. Fool ressurected was an unforseen annomaly. He wanted to get the Fool back in the hands of the servants for some reason!.
Yes, black wicked man, separated the Fool and Fitz...more than that, Prilkop saw what the pale woman did to the Fool and he saw his dead body and still did nothing to remove it from the cave and bury all that knowing, that the tawny man was white prophet! I bet he might have been a sort of a servant for the Pale Woman...I guess we will hear about Prilkop more as the story progresses.
Also, the Pale Woman, while seducing Fitz said that she would deliver a baby boy to him... Was she meaning an "unexpected son " then...? Or maybe I am being carried away by my imagination....
Tanya wrote: "Also, the Pale Woman, while seducing Fitz said that she would deliver a baby boy to him... Was she meaning an "unexpected son " then...? Or maybe I am being carried away by my imagination...."A son is always the preferred choice, daughters have always been '2nd class' with noble families. The pale woman knew she would not succeed, having prophicised her own death. She was just trying to torture Beloved more by forcing him to watch his man Fitz have sex with her. Foiled, thank goodness!
I just finished the book. Took a while to get it in my hands! I’m not sure how I feel about this book. I was quite upset with how the fool was finally introduced in this book and how long it took. Did he really need to get stabbed my Fitz? I felt that it was quite rash for Fitz to stab the Fool. I suppose it would be in character for Fitz but I was so upset when that happened. Unlike a lot of people, I didn’t think it was stupid for Fitz to leave Bee to rush the Fool back to Buckkeep. He had been mourning the loss of his friend for most of the book so of course he would do anything to save him, especially since he is the one that stabbed him. Like everyone else, I hate the cliffhanger at the end. I just hope the Fool does not die. I am eager and full of dread at how the next book will be.
Stephanie wrote: "I just finished the book. Took a while to get it in my hands! I’m not sure how I feel about this book. I was quite upset with how the fool was finally introduced in this book and how long it took. ..."Welcome to the discussion! I don't think fool needed to get stabbed by Fitz. Young Fitz was prone to acting before thinking of the consequences. I would have hoped in 60 years he would have matured a little! And stabbing the grey beggar for standing close to his daughter...just a step too far!Hobb certainly suceeded if she wanted to upset her readers with what she has done to the fool! This will be a subject of much discussion until the next book is out!
From Robin Hobbs FB page 'Loncon and travel was wonderful. But now it's time for me to withdraw a bit from social media and everything else and finish up book 2. Only about four chapters to go, and then the clean it up/fix it up part. I had expected this to be done by August 1, so I'm behind. Time to settle in and work.':-)
Yesss! One of the many reasons this lady is so great! What a workhorse!
First off, I've really enjoyed reading all the reviews, even the ones I didn't agree with. Here's my review to add to the mix. It ran a bit long but I felt like I could say so much more!I LOVED this book. I so appreciate a book that is written for an experienced adult audience rather than the teen/young adult demographic. It wasn't perfect but I was, as always, wholly drawn into Fitz's head and experience. Bee's POV took awhile but her perspective on Fitz was enlightening. I enjoyed so much about it, perhaps most of all the subtle touches like the glimpses of Patience that we get after she dies. Definitely a book hangover experience... it'll be a few days until I can start anything else.
Questions after finishing:
Will the Servants warp Bee's body or just her mind? Will the Fool recover? What will Fitz do to protect his daughter? (easy answer: anything. *shudder*) What will the Fool do to protect Bee? Why do Nettle and Riddle trust Lant? Who will accompany Fitz to retrieve Bee (my bets are Nettle, Riddle, and the Fool at least)? And I want more more more of the mythology of the Whites and all the magics of this series.
And can I just say, ARGH! Because this is the first Elderlings book that I've read without the sequel waiting on my shelf. :-(
I'm curious, if you all will indulge me: there's been a lot of talk about Fitz's parenting. How many of the commenters here are parents? Any parents of more than one child, adult children, or atypical children? I would think those experiences might create an interesting perspective on the main relationships in this book.
For my part, I am a parent but currently to only one young child. Probably Gifted (as am I), so I think that counts in the "atypical" category.
Not a parent here, but an uncle. My niece (just starting school) is smart, sensible, but a bit shy - and I guess she probably influenced how I saw Bee. [And like Bee, and like most people in my family, she was very late talking, though not as late as Bee of course]To be honest, though, I think I saw Bee more through the lens of my own childhood (I'm not a girl, nor an albino prophet, nor did I have wolf visions, nor lived in a country house with secret passages, nor had my own peasants, and my mother didn't die when I was young nor was my father (to my knowledge) an assassin - so OK, the parallels aren't exact). I don't know why exactly, but I think I found young Bee much closer to myself, psychologically, than young Fitz was. And I suppose that's part of why i'm OK with Fitz's parenting, since I'd have liked to have Fitz as a parent when I was a child - my family were/are quite independent and 'cold' (not trying to sound perjorative there), so I like the way that Fitz tries to help Bee grow up rather than mollycoddling her (no pun intended).
I think I said somewhere in this thread, I don't have kids myself.I do like the point about Fitz having memories now that he'd given to the stone dragon when he was raising Hap. I hadn't even thought about that.
Lindsey wrote: "First off, I've really enjoyed reading all the reviews, even the ones I didn't agree with. Here's my review to add to the mix. It ran a bit long but I felt like I could say so much more!I LOVED..."
I think we all agree with the AGGH!..but luckily Hobb is apparently just finishing/tidying book 2, so a release next August looks promising.
I hope it will just be Fitz and the Fool going to rescue Bee. She is an 'unofficial' Farseer, so the crown couldn't really justify sending anyone else. Fool has to get better, he just has to! (sob!) He is the only one who knows the way to Clerres. He is the only one who knows the servants and their modus operandi. Fitz won't want to hang around when he finds out Bee has been stolen. I hope they travel by skill pillars to Jamaillia and get passage on a live ship to Clerres. That should get them ahead of the servants who, I assume are on foot/horse. Time will tell!
LittleRed wrote: "I hope they travel by skill pillars to Jamaillia and get passage on a live ship to Clerres. That should get them ahead of the servants who, I assume are on foot/horse."I was thinking Skill Pillars, too. And OMG, a liveship! How about seeing Fitz's reaction if he ships on Paragon? Now I really need to see the scene where Amber returns to Paragon and Fitz sees the figurehead!
And I don't know about Dutiful justifying who he sends but I doubt he's going to be able to stand in Nettle's way if she insists. If there's some extant threat to the Six Duchies, Chade and Fitz combined might persuade her to stay. Where she goes, Riddle goes. I'm having trouble coming up with any more allies for Fitz... maybe Web? Thick or some unseen part of the King's Coterie? Hap or Burrich's sons? You may be right... Fitz and the Fool might be the only option.
I thought the last 80 pages or so were top notch and loved the cliff hanger ending. Seeing as this is Hobb we are speaking about and not George RR Martin, I'm sure we'll get the next book reasonably on time next year.
I enjoyed it so much, I was reading thread after thread of all the chapters, (I wish I joined this group earlier so I could discuss at the same time) but then decided I might as well just come on here and comment.I loved it, I was shocked I have to admit that some people thought it was too slow, too much into the clothing and food, some people didn't like Bee, I loved her!
Here's my review for anyone who's interested.
Just a summary for discussion purposes. I have no idea where Hobb will take us next, I was surprised how this book turned out (in a good way of course). I never expected a character so young and so thought out to impress me. I also loved being with Molly and was genuinely heart broken when she passed. I felt for Bee just as much as I felt for Fitz, maybe even more. The poor girl had no one. Fitz my God where do I begin? So many emotions were running through me, I hated how at times he was just lazy, lazy! I loved how compassionate he was with both Molly and Bee. I really liked the role of Nighteyes as Wolf-Father, and the beggar! What a way to bring back the Fool eh? I dreaded the book ending so soon, I thought this would at least take me a whole month to read. I think she's a smart author, a true author to her fans, I find myself telling people please read her previous works, you aren't able to give the book a just rating otherwise.
It's been 48 hours since I finished FA, and that was after a re-read of both Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies. Phew. My mind is still bursting with thoughts and still reeling from FA especially the last 3 chapters with the return of the Fool. For some readers, the first 30 chapters might have been slow burn, plot-less, meandering etc.. However, I thought it was necessary for Robin to thoroughly build the Fitz-Bee relationship and Bee's development as a pivotal character (so we can all root for her), before delivering the whammy in the final chapters. After all, Tawny Man was written over 10 years ago... A lot has happened to the characters over 20 years of Buck time. I think the thorough story development helped to ease long-time fans back into Fitz world, what he's done, where he is in life.
Plus, Robin has to build the momentum towards Fitz's anger-hot motivation to bring out his dormant assassin. And that was achieved through the abduction of his daughter whom he has grown very close to and the torture of his Beloved.
The pace, the action, the familiarity with Fitz-Fool really kick-started into gear right about chapter 31 during the market visit. When Bee noticed the gray beggar, my heart literally started pumping faster because I thought that would be the Fool in another one of his disguises. I just didn't expect the Fool to be so maimed, so scarred and so beaten up in spirit. He was so pathetic that my heart wept for him. I thought his torture under Pale Woman was horrific but Robin really wrote a new low for the Fool in the hands of the Servants. I mean, he was repeatedly and systematically tortured for years...
At which point, I was kind of mad at Fitz for his passive action even after he received Fool's message from the messenger and he heard Fool's "tortured scream" from the carved block. I also did not expect Fitz to stab the Fool... gosh.. I felt my heart being stabbed too! Was biting my nails wondering if that was the death of Fool.. If he did die there and then, I would probably have thrown the book at the wall.
Fortunately he did not.. The ensuing chapters with Fitz Fool from the medical room to the bedroom had some really moving and loving moments that vindicated the earlier 2/3 of the book, which felt like one long prologue. I loved how Fitz seamlessly interacted with the Fool as if they never parted. There was no awkwardness, no hesitation. Fitz acknowledged that the Fool smelled and looked bad, but that did not deter Fitz from caring for the Fool. Once again, they slept together like it was the natural thing to do.
For me, the Fitz Fool relationship is the heart of the three trilogies. Amber in LST provided depth and understanding of Fool's feelings for Fitz. Absent the Fool's character, I would not likely have been as strong a fan.
Perhaps because of this ardent fandom for the Fool, Robin inflicted the cruelest possible treatment on the Fool and took away his beauty, grace, dignity and belief in himself. My guess is she had to write him that way - so that his debasement and protection of his son fueled his vengeance - and Fitz's - to "kill them all". The Fool has never been written as violent or comfortable with bloodshed, so this need to kill the servants must have truly come from deep hatred and deep fear for his son/sun.
My guess is that in book 2, Robin would hold back on fully healing the Fool (lack of reserve etc.. whatever the reason). He will be healed enough to go with Fitz to rescue their son/sun aka Bee, but will slowly die of lingering poison or something in final book 3... (sob..)
However, my big hope is that Robin would consider differently. What I want to see is Fitz and Fool in full glory and power as they seek to destroy the Servants. For Fool to drop his various persona and be truly himself - Beloved - in his full beauty, strength and purpose. For Fitz to openly acknowledge himself as FitzChivalry Farseer and go all out Wolverine blasting Skill & Wit.
We haven't seen this yet so far in all 9 books (Farseer, TM, LST). Fitz and Fool were always either in disguise or were constrained (Wit hate, politics, injuries etc..). So, I hope that for once in the story, Fitz and Fool go all out guns blazing to rescue their child. They earned it!
Also, I have a feeling this trilogy is the last hurrah for Fitz and Fool. How many more times can Robin write them dying and resuscitated?
The people they know from the earlier days are aging too (Kettricken, Nettle, Dutiful, Chade etc..). Fitz and Fool will either ride off into the sunset together (unlikely..), or they die a real death (likely Fool first the Fitz much later), or they live forever in a carved dragon that looks like a wolf. Then the younger characters (Bee, Shun, Perseverance, Lant) picks up the story into a new trilogy.. if Robin chooses to continue.
I thought Bee's POV was a brilliant addition to the narration. Even though I thought she had way too much air time in FA that the book felt like The Fitz and The Bee, as opposed to The Fitz and The Fool. Before FA came out, there was a lot of speculation about whose POV Robin was going to add.. I think most people wanted the Fool's POV. I disagreed. Fool is mysterious and enigmatic.. so it will be nice to not read his thoughts so directly. Bee's POV is a perfect compromise in lieu of the Fool's POV- Bee is a White, so we get to read about what a White experiences, what she will see in Pale Isle/Clerres. She sounds like Fitz but without his melancholy and narrow focus. I look forward to reading more of Bee's POV in books 2 and 3....
But. Please. Robin, continue to give Fitz and Fool plenty of meaningful time together before retiring these characters. After all, the soul mates that is the Fitz and Beloved/Fool is truly (for me), the heart of the story.
Alfred wrote: "It's been 48 hours since I finished FA, and that was after a re-read of both Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies. Phew. My mind is still bursting with thoughts and still reeling from FA especially th..."Excellent summation of the book Alfred. and I 100% agree with you. It was a frustrating read for me, mostly with the degredation of the fool. Fitz and Fool are soul mates I also hope that they are both allowed to spend meaningful time together and let them explore their relationship... And also both be healthy enough to kick servant butt and get their daughter back together. I do hope they both survive, Beloved would be a wonderful mum for Bee- and she surely needs guidance in using her gifts- after all she is a white prophet with the skill and the wit- when she is grown she will be unstoppable!
Alfred wrote: "Scarletine - thanks! I just needed to get this out of my system :) Your comment "Beloved would be a wonderful mum for Bee" - do you think Beloved is a female? If so, yay! I am so hoping that Fo..."NO, No, No, No, No! :-D I think Beloved is 100% male and 100% gay, and 200% in love with Fitz. I want Fitz and him to be together...check out my review (and maybe, if you're game, read my fanfic that i've linked at the bottom of it!)
The fool can still be Bee's mom even though he's a dude...all she needs is 2 parents who love her.
And as for the Fool fathering Bee... Do you recall in Tawny Man that the fool told Fitz he had two fathers...it is the way of things where he is from. I believe there is some sort of sexual osmosis that took place when Fitz resurrected fool in the Stone Plaza. They were one being for a short time, and I believe this is how the fool and Fitz joined, to be come fathers to Bee.
The pregnancy was the same as the fool had previously mentioned his kind had... and the fact he is older than he looks- he was young for such a long time. How else could you explain a 2 year pregnancy to a woman who had no period for 10 years...and the fact that Bee is growing so slowly.
I don't believe that the Fool has ever had sex with anyone, even though Lord Golden was a big flirt, I think he toyed and maniplulated to get information, but was too in love with Fitz to act on any advances. This is why he said it was 'Impossible' that he had fathered a child.
All the servants had to go on was a prophecy and they could not concieve that the white prophet would not know that there was another white in the world. I think that the prophecy was misinterpreted- as no prophecy is 100% acutrate...the one word sun/son was misunderstood. I believe she was a 'sun' because of the aura she gave off when she was found by the servants.
Remember Poor Beloved was tortured mercilessly, blinded and degraded for nearly 20 years, under such constant mental and physical torture he grew to believe that the servants must right or they would not be hurting him, he started to believe he deserved it and he had a son even though he'd never had sex... It broke my heart reading that.
Scarletine wrote: "Alfred wrote: "Scarletine - thanks! I just needed to get this out of my system :) Your comment "Beloved would be a wonderful mum for Bee" - do you think Beloved is a female? If so, yay! I am so..."I wouldn't label Fool as gay, I think that Fool's love for the world is so big. He is in love with Fitz for sure, and Fitz loves Fool too, but Fitz is hindered because he has been taught to love heterosexually.
I would say that Fool is gender queer and I think that in the whites' society it is not important if you are male or female. It is possible that the servents just assumed there was a son and not a daughter even if it wasn't explicitly told in the prophecy.
Linnea wrote: "Scarletine wrote: "Alfred wrote: "Scarletine - thanks! I just needed to get this out of my system :) Your comment "Beloved would be a wonderful mum for Bee" - do you think Beloved is a female? I..."I agree with you about the white's society. They may have alternative ideas about sexuality. The fact that fool said he had two fathers and a mother could mean all sorts of ways to concieve a child...it's been left very shady, but hopefully as our lovely heroes are on their way to kick servant ass, we'll find out more about them.
I was thinking about the fact that fool said it was 'impossible' he fathered a child. I really don't think he's been with anyone. Do you remember the shame and fear of when he revealled that back tattoo to Fitz in Tawny man? If he had ever slept with anyone at court there would have been talk about Lord Golden's tattoo, there are never really any secrets in a 'court' situation.
Scarletine - haha ok, I see you feel strongly about this. I agree Fool loves Fitz. Not sure if I completely buy it that Fool is 100% male - yet - not until the very end! Whatever end Robin has in mind. She'll probably never reveal the Fool's gender. Agree with Linnea also - that Fool isn't gay in the conventional sense of the word. Fitz loves the Fool - heart and soul, but not in body. The only way he can physically love the Fool is if the Fool is female (and I do want them together!). Fitz does notice the Fool's physique a lot - his aristocratic face, long fingers, hair etc.. It makes me wonder if Robin took away the Fool's beauty and grace in FA - as a point to show how much Fitz loved the Fool anyway, scarred, crippled, foul smelling.
Anyway, back to Fool being gender queer.. maybe. I am thinking that Fool is still evolving in his gender. It is said that Prilkop (black man) and Pale woman were far older, so their genders are fully established and evolved as man and woman respectively.
In this same consideration, if Fool is gender un-determined, then so is Bee's. We do know she is definitely a girl now (Molly would know, and Fitz examined Bee's bottom for bugs). If she really is the Fool's son/sun, then she is or will be gender queer...girl now, boy later, or both. So the prophecy may still be true about the Unexpected "Son". I think many readers caught on the world play of son - sun in FA. I tend to agree in the world of the Whites/servants, it doesn't really matter if it is a son or daughter.
Scarletine - I see what you mean by Fool being tortured and eventually, believed the servants that he has a son. It still doesn't explain what exactly convinced him. If he has never had sex, than in his mind, he would still think it was "impossible" (as Fool stated) to have a child. Unless he later knew about this osmosis theory that many readers are speculating about and was convinced. I just think that is what we readers feel may be the most likely, not what Robin actually wrote.
As for the two fathers - that does not mean every White has two fathers. Just the Fool. He was born in a culture that commonly had a mother and two fathers. That they were humans and had no clue how a White child develops. Prilkop and the Pale Woman may have come from completely different cultures with different parentage. In one of the earlier books, Fool told fitz that long ago, when the Whites were diminishing in nos., one of the White woman went out into the world and bedded several men she thought was deserving. From those men, several separate generations were born, and of these lines produced another White.
I think the Whites can conceive. The messenger had 3 babies, all taken away. The Pale Woman offered to give Fitz a child.
Sorry to ramble on...
Alfred wrote: "Scarletine - haha ok, I see you feel strongly about this. I agree Fool loves Fitz. Not sure if I completely buy it that Fool is 100% male - yet - not until the very end! Whatever end Robin has i..."Ramble away...I enjoy this! ;-D
'The only way he can physically love the Fool is if the Fool is female'...Not at all, that's is a little bit short sighted. Robin has written many gay characters in her other books, she doesn't go hardcore on the detail but its within the realm of possibility that they could be lovers. Fool mentioned the night the spent together in his tent on Aslevjal...It was a 'special memory' for both of them!!!
I think Hobb took away Fools beauty because we love him so much and she's a cruel woman. What a hoot to take your most loved character and destroy him without actually killing him..huh! I hope he's been broken down to be 'rebuilt' with an extra facet to his character...that he is prepared to kill. The fact that he asked Fitz to kill for him was a HUGE deal. I hope he can be healed properly and not just fade away from slow poison...The contents of 'Fools Quest' will determine wether I read the third book. If Fool is put through any more torture crap I don't think I could stand it. He needs a hug damn it!
'I see what you mean by Fool being tortured and eventually, believed the servants that he has a son. It still doesn't explain what exactly convinced him'
Mental torture and brainwashing over 20 years could have convinced him the sky was pink with green dots. I'm sure he lost himself and went a bit mad. I can't imagine anyone going through 20 years of torture and surviving, let alone have their full faculties. You read how completly broken he was, how the mischievous, inventive court Fool had been reduced to being a blind beggar...he couldn't even recite a riddle or sing for his supper. He was broken to the core and days from death and all he could think of was the imaginary son he did not recall concieving.
I always worried about Prilkop. He said that he wasn't allowed to help Fitz and Fool, yet he led them straight to the white woman's lair. He also convinced fool to leave fitz...i'm sure he knew what an annomaly he was and thought he could somehow profit from bringing him back to clerres. I think the whole sexuality thing is a red herring, at worst Beloved is a hermaphrodite and has male and female organs. But don't you think Fitz should already know? He was after all 'inside' Fool's body- a connection and experience deeper than a sexual union.
I think Bee is 100% a girl. It would have been mentioned if there was something unusual in the nappy area- they were so worried that she wouldn't survive so a genital abnormality would have been mentioned.
Yes, Hobb does write gay characters. That does NOT mean that Fitz is going to have gay sex. Fitz is not gay. He's had, what, sixty years or so to work that out. Not only is Fitz not gay, but the books have repeatedly hammered home the point that sex is not what ultimately matters anyway (particularly at his time of life!)- it would be completely out of character for Fitz and for the books if out of the blue he started being in gay sex scenes.I have nothing against m/m erotica. But those books already exist. Please allow that there is also room for books that are NOT m/m erotica! It is legitimate to write about a loving friendship without needing to dilute it with hot gay sex scenes.
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Regarding the possibly hermaphroditism: we know nothing at all about the reproductive patterns of this species, so we cannot say whether hermaphroditism would be obvious at birth to a human observer. Even among humans, sex (however defined) is not always obvious at birth - if even boring old humans have guevedoches, surely we can imagine something similar for Whites?
Not that I think that will happen necessarily, but I don't think we can rule it out.
Calling this love between Fool and Fitz as gay would put too much of a box around that love, which transcends all. The Fool has always said that his love has no limits, no boundaries. But Fitz does have these boundaries, still. I wonder how Fitz will overcome this mental block, if he ever will. In Golden Fool, he was opening up. Switching gear here. What are your interpretations of Bee's dreams?
And, why does the servants keep grilling the Fool about the unexpected son/sun? Why him, not prilkop, other Whites? Specifically, why him?
So are all whites prophetic? If so, is the messenger also a prophet (the one that died delivering the message to Fitz and looks like the Fool)?
So many questions. Love this book, all the FS, LST and TM books. Have not read Robin Hobb's other trilogies.
So you think that she doesn't have the Skill, or that she doesn't have the Wit or neither?