Death of a Peer (aka Surfeit of Lampreys)

[Lesley]

Judy wrote: "Lesley wrote: "I'm going to read the chapter from Women of Mystery where she writes in depth about the Rhodes family which is supposed to be the family the Lampreys are based on. It will be interes..."

Yes, that's the one. Very remiss of me not adding the author especially when I was aware of it being such a common title - and me a cataloguer as well!!

[Roman Clodia]

I'm amused about French-speaking PC Martin... and the way he undermines the snobbery of the Lampreys who blithely assume he's too uneducated/uncultured to understand them. Really, I haven't warmed to the family at all!

[Susan]

That was a wonderful scene, I agree, RC. I can't say I warmed to them either; especially the eldest girl, whose name completely escapes me at the moment!

[Rosina]

Susan wrote: "That was a wonderful scene, I agree, RC. I can't say I warmed to them either; especially the eldest girl, whose name completely escapes me at the moment!"

Frid - and I have to say that I didn't find her as bad as dear Henry. At least Frid was going to have a job, even if only in theatre. Henry, despite his family having debts and no money at all, didn't seem to think that working for a living was for the likes of him. I know we catch up with the Lampreys in a later book - where Michael reappears. I can't remember which one, or what happened to the family during the War - perhaps someone who knows the book could post a spoiler?

[Susan]

Yes, Frid and Henry were both pretty dreadful. I just recalled Frid with the policeman, kind of dismissing him and speaking French.

[Rosina]

And the twins - 22 and still playing silly games. At least Frid is only 20, and not yet old enough to be an independent adult.

[Susan]

It's certainly true that young people were considered 'children' for far longer then.

[Judy]

I think when you read about the young people in this book, though, however silly they may be, there is an awareness that they will soon all be at war. Henry won’t have the chance to stay lazy for long!

[Rosina]

Susan wrote: "It's certainly true that young people were considered 'children' for far longer then."

Only in certain circles. Elsewhere, fifteen year olds were leaving school and starting work, with low pay, long hours and potentially dangerous.

[Rosina]

Judy wrote: "I think when you read about the young people in this book, though, however silly they may be, there is an awareness that they will soon all be at war. Henry won’t have the chance to stay lazy for l..."

I don't see any evidence that they are aware they will soon be at war (if they aren't already).

[Susan]

My mother left school at fifteen - I thought that was very lucky when I was young!

[Rosina]

Susan wrote: "My mother left school at fifteen - I thought that was very lucky when I was young!"

It is a bit late to ask them now, but I think my mother left school at 12, and my father at 14. But that was in the 20s not the 30s. Can you imagine if one of the twins gets picked as a Bevin Boy, working in the coal mines?

[Susan]

My father, in rural Ireland, rarely went to school at all - but, again, that was in the 30's and he was the eldest son on a farm.

Still, not sure the wealthy got off that well at the time - or now. I have known quite a few ex-public schoolboys who absolutely hated boarding school, for example. I suppose we all have our issues to deal with.

[Jill]

When I was young a neighbour's grandson went to boarding school and us children all told him that his mother sent him away to school because she didn't love him. He actually agreed. Children can be so cruel.

[Judy]

Rosina wrote: "I don't see any evidence that they are aware they will soon be at war (if they aren't already) ..."

I don't think there is much awareness of it, but there is a brief mention of the possibility of war breaking out right at the end, in the edition I had, anyway. I meant that as readers we are aware, looking at the date of the book.

[Rosina]

Judy wrote: "I meant that as readers we are aware, looking at the date of the book."

As I wrote in the other thread, looking at the dates in the book, we are actually already at war, and none of the Lampreys seems to have noticed. Given that the dating is wrong, however, their attitude seems to be that it's for others to work, and pay, and for the Lampreys not to be disturbed. I expect they will head for somewhere safer than London, or Kent, when war does break out in their timeline.

[Lesley]

Rosina wrote: "Judy wrote: "I meant that as readers we are aware, looking at the date of the book."

As I wrote in the other thread, looking at the dates in the book, we are actually already at war, and none of t..."

I think from all accounts I've read, she wrote the book pre-war (just), but it wasn't published until after the war had started.

[Lesley]

My mother and father both left school at the age of 13 years which was the standard age for 'matriculation' in NZ. They were at those ages in mid to late 1930s. That didn't change until after the war when the school leaving age was moved to 15 years of age which usually took you through to the 5th form at college.
Pre-war if you went on past that level/age you had to pay for your education, so the common working folk rarely ever did that. Ngaio Marsh was not one of the common working folk.

Back 'in those days' I don't think children were considered mature by adults, although the children had a different opinion, of course!

[Jill]

As I said on the other thread :-Around page 224 , Henry says when the war comes, so they must have been thinking it was a probability .

[Rosina]

Jill wrote: "As I said on the other thread :-Around page 224 , Henry says when the war comes, so they must have been thinking it was a probability ."

Do we totally reject the evidence - letter dated 11/12/39, eleven years since 1929 - that places the whole thing inside a London preparing with air raid shelters and black outs, gas masks and rationing? And conscription?

[Judy]

For me, this is clearly set pre-war - that 1939 date is odd, but I suspect authors and publishers may sometimes put in dates that haven't happened yet when a book goes into the publication process, to make books seem up-to-the-minute when they get published, and it looks as if they got caught out by this one.

[Judy]

If anyone has been wondering what lampreys look like, I've found a Daily Telegraph article about their return to English rivers - however, they are a protected species, so we Brits won't be finding out what they taste like, although the article says they are still plentiful in North America.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/eart...

It's Henry I who supposedly died of a "surfeit of lampreys".

[Tracey]

Judy wrote: "If anyone has been wondering what lampreys look like, I've found a Daily Telegraph article about their return to English rivers - however, they are a protected species, so we Brits won't be finding..."

I admit to looking them up when I started the book. Quite gruesome looking IMHO!

[Lesley]

Lesley wrote: "I've also discovered another book with a chapter about Marsh that contains some interesting biographical information in it, and there's quite a bit about the Surfeit of Lampreys/Death of a Peer mai..."

Some observations.

Having read the chapter in this book about Ngaio Marsh, I can most definitely see the Rhodes family in the Lampreys. There are slight differences in the children, but the boy who seems to fit with the larrikin Lamprey the most is Denys Rhodes (9 July 1919 – 30 October 1981). He is the practical joker, even down to telling the Queen (in whose household he worked) at the time of Ngaio's investiture, that she preferred to be called Edith, and that she was invalided needing a wheelchair. The Queen arranged for her to be admitted through the side entrance, having a wheelchair ready for her, making Ngaio miss out on the grand entrance with the other recipients, and causing some amusement with The Queen.

After all the discussion as to there seemingly being no knowledge of the war where the Lampreys are concerned, it is interesting to note that Tahu Rhodes had served in WWI attaining the rank of Major, and Denys Rhodes did served in WWII with the Rifle Brigade, fighting in North Africa and Italy. So, that makes you wonder even more why Marsh seemed to ignore the fact that war was imminent. Or did she just plot the book around that time she was living with them in Birmingham living the party life?

The family seemed to move in aristocratic circles, and Denys served in the Royal Household. After his second marriage he lived and wrote in rural Devon, (most famous for his novel The Syndicate which was adapted into a 1968 film) until ill health necessitated a move nearer to London at which time the Queen offered The Garden House in Windsor Great Park. His wife continues to live there.

This book, Women of Mystery: The Lives and Works of Notable Women Crime Novelists, covers women mystery writers beginning with Anna Katharine Green and Mary Roberts Rinehart, the Golden Era, to Modern Motives - Highsmith to Perry, (each author's section ends with a comprehensive bibliography), Chronologies and includes a list of references and resources. Well worth reading I think, and I will read more of it if I get time before it is due back.

[Susan]

Thanks, Lesley. Sounds really interesting. In the UK this is available on kindle for £6.17 and there are cheaper, second hand book versions.

[Lesley]

Susan wrote: "Thanks, Lesley. Sounds really interesting. In the UK this is available on kindle for £6.17 and there are cheaper, second hand book versions."

I borrowed it through the Open Library, Susan, but of course they have only one copy. On Amazon Australia it is A$9.15.

It was quite interesting reading the section on Ngaio Marsh now that we've read a good number of her books to compare what we know of her characters with her own life and circles she mixed in. You can see some of where characters are drawn from. I wondered whether Troy was Marsh's alter ego as her passion was art but she lacked the confidence. In fact it was surprising to learn of her lack of confidence in many arenas, and how dependent she seemed to be on her parents, particularly her mother.

And reading this and looking at the known history, the Rhodes were truly reckless party lovers just like the Lampreys, yet managed to move in aristocratic circles without being shunned.

[Judy]

I'd be interested to read this - thanks so much for sharing all the information, Lesley. Sounds as if it will also add to the TBR list, though! :)

[Susan]

Which other authors are covered in the book, Lesley?

[Lesley]

Susan wrote: "Which other authors are covered in the book, Lesley?"

Here's the brief table of contents - just main headings

Part One - In the Beginning: The Mothers of Detection
Anna Katharine Green
Mary Roberts Rinehart

Part Two - A Golden Era: The Genteel Puzzlers
Agatha Christie
Dorothy L. Sayers
Ngaio Marsh
Josephen Tey
Margery Allingham

Part Three - Modern Motives: Mysteries of the Murderous Mind
Patricia Highsmith
P.D. James
Ruth Rendell
Mary Higgins Clark
Sue Grafton
Patricia Cornwell
Minette Walters
Emma Lathen
Margaret Millar
Lilian Jackson Braun
Anne Perry

Criminous Chronologies
I. Start to Golden Age
II. 1920 to 1950
III. 1951 to Present

[Susan]

Thanks, Lesley. I feel guilty that you copied all that out, sorry!

[Judy]

Thank you for the list, Lesley! Quite a few names there which aren't very familiar to me, and I must confess I had never heard of Emma Lathen and not sure if I had heard of Margaret Millar. Sounds like a very interesting book.

[Susan]

I have never heard of Emma Lathen or Margaret Millar either, Judy.

[Lesley]

I don't think I've read either of these authors, but I do remember shelving many Emma Lathen mysteries back in the 1960/70s, maybe even into the 80s. They used to be published in the same format as Mills & Boon (romance) and Corgi Westerns - 7inch hardcover about 200 odd pages. Libraries used to have quarterly standing orders for them and patrons used to devour them! There was a publisher series for the SciFi too, but I can't remember who that was.

I've got vague recollections of Margaret Millar, but not as having read any of her books. Probably shelving again, but don't remember that name being as prolific as Lathen.

[Susan]

I honestly haven't heard of either. However, imported books were difficult to get hold of in the 1980's even. I used to go to Murder One in Tottenham Court Road, I recall, to buy American mysteries, in particular, which were not available in most bookshops at the time. It was exciting, but I prefer the ease of the internet! I recall I was never sure of the order of different series and there seemed no way to discover whether you had missed any, or were reading books out of order. It was all much more haphazard :)

[Jessica-sim]

I'm finding it hard get involved with the story. One comment above suggests that Robin will wake up a bit and put her rose tinted glasses off, that would be interesting!

[Rosina]

Jessica wrote: "I'm finding it hard get involved with the story. One comment above suggests that Robin will wake up a bit and put her rose tinted glasses off, that would be interesting!"

Lord Michael Lamprey turns up in a later book, and gives all the latest information on the family to Alleyn. Unfortunately, I can't remember which book, and it's decades since I read it, but I'm don't think Robin and Henry have split up.

[Judy]

Jessica, I think t was me who said that about Robin - might have been slightly wishful thinking, sorry!

Rosina, thanks for mentioning that the Lampreys turn up again- that's nice to know.

We'd maybe better take any discussion of romantic developments over to the spoiler thread, though. (Even if they are not exactly a surprise!)

[Jessica-sim]

Judy wrote: "Jessica, I think t was me who said that about Robin - might have been slightly wishful thinking, sorry!

Rosina, thanks for mentioning that the Lampreys turn up again- that's nice to know.

We'd ma..."

haha don't worry the surprise indeed wasn't very big ;-)

[Tara]

My favorite Marsh so far, although like others I found the Lampreys to be overprivileged and very tiresome. They surely need a real dose of reality, It was nice to see Nigel back again, although he added absolutely nothing to the story, so I'm curious why she decided to throw him in there. The only half-way redeemable Lamprey was Henry, hopefully Robin can straighten him out.