Brain Pain discussion
J R - Spine 2014
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Discussion - Week One thru Six - JR
Almost gave JR a miss, as my reading schedule is a bit crowded.Glad I didn't -- that opening segment with the sisters and the attorney was hilarious.
Mod
Glad I didn't -- that opening segment with the sisters and the attorney was hilarious."
Glad you're all in... I'm starting it tonight.
Gaddis' humor is always terrific. The attorney scene is no exception. I also love the use of the phrase "in a voice that rustled."
This has not been an easy work to get into. Just about the time I get into a flow I have to put it down (young kids in the house) and then it's hard to get back into because there are no good stopping points. This is why I joined the group though - to read challenging literature. At this point I'm wondering why in the introduction of my edition Rick Moody repeatedly claims this isn't a "hard" work. It's been hard so far!
Mod
Well, I'm only 15 pages in, but so far it's reading like a fast-paced Victorian farce. Not difficult, but if interrupted, I can see this being a pain to get back in to. I'm going to try and carve out 2-3 hour blocks of reading time for the rest of the book.
My strategy has been to read until there is a definite scene/character switch. These are tough to spot, though, as the shift occurs in the middle of a long descriptive paragraph.
Does anyone know what the Greek inscription over the school means? I had two semesters of Classical Greek and this looks like nonsense - not even actual words, but with only two semesters I have a very limited vocabulary. References to this script have come up at least three times in the first fifty pages, so it may have some meaning in the story.
According to the annotations:20.4] EBFM SAOH AQQFBR: Greek letter substitutions for the English phrase "FROM EACH ACCORD. . ." -- from Marx's famous formulation in Critique of the Gotha Program (1875): "From Each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." The inscription is identified as Marx's at 409.27.
Thanks for asking -- I hadn't bothered to look at the Annotations page, and just now found it to be quite informative.
Interesting. I can't type the Greek text into this box, but here's how it breaks down: Epsilon, beta, phi, mu; sigma, alpha, omicron, eta; alpha, theta, theta, phi, beta, rho. This makes no sense in Greek. In spite of what the annotations page says, I'm not sure it makes sense when the letters are transliterated. The result would be - Ebphm Saoe Aththphbr. Substituting "From Each Accord" with Greek would result in - phi, rho, omicron, mu; epsilon, alpha, chi; alpha, kappa, kappa, omicron, rho, delta (far different than what the text reads). Maybe I'm getting too far into the weeds on this. I'll just read further and see how it ties in. Thanks for the link though. I know that will be useful throughout.
I found a better explanation in the book "Fables of Subversion." Apparently what happened was some character in the text alters most of the English letters to make them look Greek. Since I can't copy the actual Greek text into this box I can't easily explain the process. The first letter is E - take away the bottom line and you get an F. The next letter is B - take away the bottom line of the curve and you get an R. The next letter is a phi, or ph. Take away the line down the middle and you get an O. I think that's enough to illustrate how the process works. Of course it fails on the last letter. The rho, which looks like a P, can't be derived from a delta, which looks like a triangle. Okay, thanks for indulging me and letting me work that out!
One of my favorite quirks in this book is the way Julia and Anne describe some of the most famous composers of the 20th century - they're so homey and normal (and a little bit senile); a perfectly hilarious contrast to what you'd expect based on their position.Having some trouble with the unattributed dialogue, though... Who keeps saying "ahm"? They have a very distinctive way of talking, but I didn't realize it until it was too late to figure out who it was!
I'm still only 1/2 way through Argall! You guys read too fast! But JR is one of those books that have been on my "to read" list for 30+ years, and moreover it's the kind of book that drew me to Brain Pain in the first place. So by golly I'm going to try to catch up (even as I keep slogging through the OOZE of Argall). I guess it's time to ask the internet to find me a copy (I got a print copy of Argall for about $7, shipping included, thank you Internet).
I started this book years ago, found the opening hilarious, and then lost momentum (and the energy needed to keep up with Gaddis' manic pace). Here's hoping I do better this time (I'm on vacation so there's a chance...)
So far this book has been more than anything really funny. I love the dryness of the humour. That and the description of the school system is almost too accurate. It's the tiniest bit disturbing...
What is it with people drinking (if that's the correct word) ketchup right out of the bottle?First the guy at a diner in that short story of Mailer's, now the kid in the automat in JR.
Pretty revolting way to be stingy.
The dialogue of Gibbs at the automat and the train station (scenes 16-18) was completely lost on me until I checked the annotations and found he was quoting T. S. Eliot: Hysteria
Quite a character, that Mr Gibbs.
I've read up to the point where David's wife let Nora sell his suits to the thrift shop. How has he not strangled her yet? She wants to teach their kids about sex by having them watch? The section is funny, but if you've ever been in a dysfunctional relationship then it might make you clench you teeth!
I meant Dan, not David. It's easy to get names confused when you don't see them often.
Jeremy wrote: "...Of course it fails on the last letter. The rho, which looks like a P, can't be derived from a delta, which looks like a triangle."I'm butting in for no go reason. Anyway, "P" minus the stem looks like "D".
Anyway, it's a substitution cipher, with characters that someone apparently thought similar to roman letters, as in the typical book cover or movie poster for a story set in Russia, where a "Я" is used as if it were an "R," even though it's really a ya
Fyaom Yassia with Love?
Looked at from another angle, its sounds as if Gaddis was the original (Greek) 1337$p33Korzzzz.
P.S., I don't actually know anything, I'm just riffing. Ignorez.
Good catch on the rho to D - I missed that.
Apologies for being a bit late on the JR discussion. I just did start reading. I'm also listening to the audiobook via audible with Nick Sullivan as the performer. From what I've listened to so far, Nick is fantastic. Actually, listening is really a vivid experience; I can see reading off the page can be challenging due to the unconventional/minimal punctuation.What struck me as black humor in the first several pages is how the two ladies, Julia and Anne, continually cut the lawyer and each other off in mid-sentence as they talk 'at' one another rather than 'with' one another. ------ A very telling and true observation.
I figured the conversation for this book had died (or never really began). I've made it to about page 450, but I imagine it will take me several more weeks to finish it because I'm also reading Portrait of a Lady and trying to finish The Magic Mountain. Listening to a skilled narrator is a great idea.
Jeremy wrote: "I figured the conversation for this book had died (or never really began). I've made it to about page 450, but I imagine it will take me several more weeks to finish it because I'm also reading Po..."If you go to audible and take a look at JR, there are glowing reviews of Nick Sullivan's reading, the most glowing I've ever seen noted about a reader, ever.
Yes, indeed, it looks like the discussion of JR was a bit brief, but I will be posting my reflections at least 3 or 4 times a week. If you would like to also post or add some thoughts to my posts, that would be great. Even if it is mostly just the 2 of us, that's fine by me. It will take me at least a few weeks to finish as I do not rush my listening/reading.
I'm right with you, Jeremy - page 457.Wondering whether Bast will lose his innocence. His enjoyment of the Waldorf is pretty worrisome (even though he just likes the piano). Also wondering how his crush on Mrs. Joubert will factor into his... Will it save him, or destroy him?
Sosen wrote: "I'm right with you, Jeremy - page 457.Wondering whether Bast will lose his innocence. His enjoyment of the Waldorf is pretty worrisome (even though he just likes the piano). Also wondering how h..."
Thanks a bunch, Sosen. I'm right with you and Jeremy . . well about 300 pages behind but reading/listening to JR every day -- I've fallen in love with this book. ---- I see the characters in JR as if they are in the art of Red Grooms.
So far, the novel is a rollicking romp with characters drowning in their own chatter; and there is satirical humor in that all of them completely identify with their chatter -- judging from the objective narrator's eye view, it appears these men and women have little or no real interior life. When someone stumbles over their own language or tries to inflate their language, Whiteback for example, this only added to the humor. Very laugh-aloud funny.
I recall finding the school board and business exec scenes to be a bit tedious in the beginning. Once things get rolling, the characters behave in the same way , this time with the circumstances entirely clear. Quite a masterful way for an author to show up a class of people they don't like.
Mkfs wrote: "I recall finding the school board and business exec scenes to be a bit tedious in the beginning. Once things get rolling, the characters behave in the same way , this time with the circumstances en..."Thanks for your post, M.
I agree. From the tone of what I've read so far, Gaddis doesn't like the American business mentality and the American cultural myth of progress; matter of fact, I sense a seething rage underneath his satire.
I recall my own seething rage after studying philosophy in college and then having to deal with the world of American business after graduation. Perhaps this is one reason I have connected with JR.
Mod
I'm sure his years working in PR for companies like IBM gave him much to rage about!
Jim wrote: "Glenn wrote: "From the tone of what I've read so far, Gaddis doesn't like the American business mentality and the American cultural myth of progress; matter of fact, I sense a seething rage undern..."Thanks, Jim.
Ya, man . . . there’s no experience like first-hand experience; Gaddis had his bellyful.
I don’t want to overdo it with outside quotes, but here’s one from Herbert Marcuse: “ From the harmless drive for better zoning regulations and a modicum of protection from noise and dirt to the pressure for closing of whole city areas to automobiles, prohibition of transistor radios in all public places, de-commercialization of nature, total urban reconstruction, control of the birth rate – such action would become increasingly subversive of the institutions of capitalism and of their morality.”
From the first pages, the novel is filled with saws cutting down trees and cars rumbling up and down streets – a cacophony overpowering the sounds and silence of nature. ---- Gaddis and Marcuse are on the same page: a coarse, noisy world is an anti-art, anti-musical, anti-aesthetic world.
I’ve read 200+ pages and have been enjoying every , , , Hold on a second, I have a call.
…I’ve been enjoying every word and . . .
Just a bit of a jest, but this is the entire rhythm of the novel. Every single person in the novel, adults and children, men and women, businessmen and ticket takers and school kids and old ladies, do not possess the patience or capacity to hear out other people. Nearly every sentence from every mouth is cut off before the sentence is completed. Or, also telling, everybody interrupts what they are saying mid-sentence to answer the phone. What a statement about society and culture. An entire population portrayed as the Jabbering Ruck --- alternate meaning of those two huge letters – JR -- on the book’s cover.
Again, I am reading the book and listening to the audiobook concurrently. Most rewarding experience. I can see where some reviewers judge JR as a difficult book but once you follow Gaddis’s pace and rhythm, the language is quite engaging and not all that demanding.
Here is a snatch of dialogue on the 2nd page:
Old Aunt Julia explains some family history to the visiting lawyer: “Well, Father was just sixteen years old. As I say, Ira Cobb owned him some money. It was for work that Father had done, probably repairing some farm machinery. Father was always good with his hands. And then this problem came up over money, instead of paying Father Ira gave him an old violin and he took it down to the barn to try to learn to play it. Well his father heard it and went right down, and broke the violin over Father’s head. We were a Quaker family, after all, where you just didn’t do things that didn’t do things that didn’t pay.” --------------------------- This is hilarious and also so, so telling about the culture. A young boy wants to play the violin instead of fixing farm machinery or dealing in money. Well, whack! . . . take that kid. And get back to work so you can hand me some money!
And God help those adults who don't grow out of wanting to play music or paint pictures or write books. Damn . . . why don't they really grow up and get a real job and do something useful so they can make money.
Mod
Great observation! I'm adding "jabbering ruck" to my vocabulary effective immediately...
I can't recall if this has been posted before or not, but I found it a great accompaniment to reading JR: Much God Damned Entropy.Somewhere in there -- or was it? -- there's a mention that only the dominant party in any exchange is allowed to finish a sentence.
Mkfs wrote: "I can't recall if this has been posted before or not, but I found it a great accompaniment to reading JR: Much God Damned Entropy.Somewhere in there -- or was it? -- there's a mention that only t..."
Thanks, M. I'll keep an eye out for that line. But so far, even the cigar-chomping tough business types are not allowed to finish their sentences. If nothing else, they do not dominate the telephone and the other technologies.
And then there's Davidoff interrupting himself before anybody else can.
Sosen wrote: "And then there's Davidoff interrupting himself before anybody else can."Yes, indeed. Fine observation. Interruption as a way of communication, so much so that it takes on a life of its own, turning on oneself as speaker.
thanks for linking me to this thread, glenn! though i haven't started j r yet (saving it for a time when i can focus my full attention on it), there's lots of good stuff to chew on here. gaddis is a fascinating writer & one of my favorites. in an interview with the paris review, gaddis said that his biggest influences as a writer were mark twain, nathaniel west, t.s. eliot & evelyn waugh, which i've always found interesting. 'interruption as a way of communication'--that's gaddis, all right!
Mkfs wrote: "I can't recall if this has been posted before or not, but I found it a great accompaniment to reading JR: Much God Damned Entropy.Somewhere in there -- or was it? -- there's a mention that only t..."
And thanks for the link to that interview. I will read after I finish the book and write my own Goodreads review. (I don't read interviews or reviews until I've written my own review.)
Aidan wrote: "thanks for linking me to this thread, glenn! though i haven't started j r yet (saving it for a time when i can focus my full attention on it), there's lots of good stuff to chew on here. gaddis is ..."Thanks, in turn, Aidan. I can especially see the West-Gaddis connection.
So far, one of my favorite characters: Whiteback (great name white + wetback ), the school principal, who speaks pure Buffoon-ese. My guess is Gaddiss had great fun including Whiteback in the story. Love the fact that Whiteback displays his Horatio Alger award along with his 56! honorary degrees. Here is Whiteback meeting with Dan, one of the school testers and also a Major Hyde who is making a visit to the school. At one point in the conversation, Whiteback pontificates on the justification of monies being given his school for standardized testing:
“Right, Dan, the norm in each case supporting or we might say being supported, substantiated that is to say, by an overall norm, so that in other words in terms of the testing the norm comes out as the norm, or we have no norm to test against, right? So that presented in these terms the equipment can be shown to justify itself in budgetary terms that is to say, would you agree, Major?
--- I’ll say one think Dan, if you can present it at the budget meeting the way Whiteback’s just presented it here no one will dare to argue with you . . . “
What a scream. No joke, no one will argue. How do you argue with blustering sophistic double-speak?! Language as an administrate cover-up. Ironically, JR was published during the Watergate era.
Any other reflections on Whiteback or any other character?
Edward wrote: "Glenn wrote: "So far, one of my favorite characters: Whiteback (great name white + wetback ), the school principal, who speaks pure Buffoon-ese. My guess is Gaddiss had great fun including Whiteba..."Thanks so much for your post here, Edward.
Not too simplistic at all. That is exactly how to proceed: first define applicable terms and then build on these definitions and work with any facts, evidence, statistics, etc. in a clear, logical manner to reach sound conclusions.
However, such an approach assumes the people you are dealing with likewise wish to reach sound conclusions. And there’s the rub. The Whitebacks of the world are not interested in sound conclusions. They are interested in getting what they want. And they are not about to permit anybody the time and space to define their terms even as a first step--- using every dirty trick in the book, things like continually interrupting, ad hominem attacks, creating false dichotomies, to name just a few. Incidentally, this is exactly why a number of dialogues of Plato simply break down and no clear conclusion is reached at the end of the dialogue -- the person or persons Socrates is arguing with refuse to play by the rules of logic and reason.
Sorry to say, many times the people with the biggest mouth and think nothing of insulting and belittling others are exactly the ones who get their own way in group meetings. From what I’ve read so far in this long novel, Gaddis plays with this fact with insightful and stinging satire. A great read.
I plan to continue posting a number of comments as I read JR.
I couldn’t stop laughing when Whiteback, Gibbs, Dan and the Major watch the broadcasts of school lessons via cable television. Some of the highlights: a lesson talking about Mozart’s life -- in ridiculous terms -- and then comes the statement:“ ----- that here’s um, yes here’s one he wrote to a girl cousin about the time he was writing his Paris symphony he says, he apologies to her for not writing and he says Do you think I’m dead? Don’t believe it. I implore you. For believing and shitting are two very different things . . . “
Now that gets a rise out of Whiteback and the others. The boys don’t know their Mozart but there’s something they do know about!
Also, Gibbs notes how a lesson pertains to the Greek philosopher Empedocles and the cosmic cycle. The Major cuts him off and in his anger says, “They didn’t come here to talk about the comic cycles . . . “
Such wonderful writing. The contrast between the cultural heritage of the West and the buffoonery, crudeness and outright stupidity of the educators makes for very lively reading.
Edward wrote: "Your insights are marvelous. Please keep them coming. Your ability to translate events/thoughts from a common perspective to a high level one; and vice-versa; is rare; and indicative of the best wr..."Thanks a bunch, Edward. And I plan to continue posting on Gaddis's outstanding novel via this thread.
I’m really enjoying all the insights Gaddis sprinkles in JR. Here is a bit of dialogue when Dan diCephalis, who works under Whiteback at the school, comes home with his wife and encounters his two children, daughter Nora and son Donny, playing. Nora asks diChephalis for a penny:--Quick, a penny! Gimme another penny quick!
--What for, Nora?
--Quick. Donny is this machine which I have to put a penny in him to make him go, to make it go.
-- . . . what kind of machine?
--A jumping machine. Didn’t you hear it? Quick I have to put another penny before he runs out.
--Wait! Wait a minute, to put in where? What do you mean another penny, where!
--in his mouth, this penny I found on your dresser . . .
Right after this domestic scene, there’s a shift. JR is walking beside Edward Bast as Bast trudges home along a road in early evening after the school day. Bast quickens his pace and JR calls out:
--. . . Hey Mister Bast? He called, and Bast half raised an arm without lifting his eyes from his lengthening steps toward the main road opening ahead, where the voice barely reached him as he crossed its unkempt shoulder. – I just mean like maybe we can use each other some time, okay . . .?
I wouldn’t want to press the point too hard, but I think Gaddis is making a penetrating insight on our modern technological, capitalist culture. Even in children, the tendency to want to treat other people as objects or to use other people as a tool to make money.
Here is a quote from Herbert Marcuse, who wrote these words around the same time as Gaddis was writing JR:
“The so-called consumer society and the politics of corporate capitalism have created a second nature of man which ties him libidinally and aggressively to the commodity form. The need for possessing, consuming, handling and constantly renewing the gadgets, devices, instruments, engines, offered to and imposed upon the people, for using these wares even at the danger of one’s own destruction, has become a “biological” need.”
The initial business contact on Mrs. Jourbert's Wall Street class field trip is a Mr. Davidoff. And Davidoff hands the class over to a Mr. Crawley as Davidoff says “I want you to meet a real live stock broker body and girls . . . “ Here is Crawley on the phone, answering a question about the stock market:--Crawley here. What? No, I don’t know what the hell’s going on there nobody does . . . What? No, it’s not just two or three stocks, it’s the whole market . . . do what? Certainly not. If you want to quote me you can say the long overdue technical readjustments taking place in our present dynamic market situation offer no convincing evidence of the sort that has characterized long-term deterioration in past major business downturns. What might appear at this ah, this juncture as conflicting behavior, the conflicting behavior of prevailing economic forces . . . right. Expect a certain leveling off period when . . right. Right. Any time . . .
Similar to Whiteback, pure Buffoon-ese. But ratcheted up several notches. The more Crawley talks, answers the phone, gives orders to his secretary, talks to the children, speaks of his hunting and killing animals, the clearer it becomes just how creepy and dangerous a character he is. There’s a good chance the name Crawley is no accident; very close to the occultist Aleister Crowley, self-proclaimed as “the most dangerous man in the world”. Dangerous, Indeed. As Mr. Crawley answers the children’s questions about his photos on the wall displaying him with the large animals he killed, the more we can imagine a photo of him standing on a pile of dead business rivals and business associates he figuratively stabbed in the back to get where he is. And very dangerous to a society. The 21st century had a taste of Crawley-type business people with the Enron and Wall Street fiascos.
And, of course, Crawley discounts or dismisses or ignores all of JR’s insightful questions and comments about the stock exchange and the world of finances. Nobody is picking up on the fact that JR, a grungy-looking 12 year old, has the makings of a financial genius.
Glenn wrote: "And, of course, Crawley discounts or dismisses or ignores all of JR’s insightful questions and comments about the stock exchange and the world of finances. "There's also a disturbing (or should we say "realistic") lack of professional ethics in the scene. The purpose of the field trip is to get the class to purchase a share in the company owned by their teacher's family -- whose stock is currently undergoing manipulation (by Crawley and others).
The students aren't just being treated as children; they're being treated as the suckers that Crawley and his colleagues believe minor shareholders to be.
Mkfs wrote: "Glenn wrote: "And, of course, Crawley discounts or dismisses or ignores all of JR’s insightful questions and comments about the stock exchange and the world of finances. "There's also a disturbin..."
Bulls-eye. After reading up to page 200 I could see there is simply too much happening in the novel so I started rereading from page 1. I’m up to page 100 where Mrs. Joubert is in the office of her uncle, Governor Cates. The tone is not only satirical but on another, deeper level, disturbing and downright sinister. And Cates knows Crawley is an underhanded manipulator (almost taken for granted) . Here’s a snatch of dialogue where Cates asks:
--What the devil did you mean, just said you’ve got all his stock distributed in these two foundations didn’t you?
--Yes sir it’s, we’re still waiting for delivery on one certificate from Mister Crawley but there’s no . . .
--Crawley? Probably got it listed in his street name down there out borrowing against it to buy another damn elephant gun why the devil’d you . . .
The way Cates talks, gruff no-nonsense racist, sexist American business, it is like we have traveled down to a lower circle of hell. This is a world were humans are stripped of all humanity, everything is reduced to money and profit, and world peoples (including children) are treated as tools or objects (a more direct example of the Herbert Marcuse quote above) and manipulated accordingly.
As I read and reflect more, I’ll revisit the scene with Crawley and the scene with Cates.
Edward wrote: "Glenn wrote: "I’m really enjoying all the insights Gaddis sprinkles in JR. Here is a bit of dialogue when Dan diCephalis, who works under Whiteback at the school, comes home with his wife and enco..."Yes, indeed. I see advertisements and various marketing of books and other products on this Goodreads site. I try my best to ignore and simply focus on an exchange with my Goodreads friends.
Since there are no obvious places to divide the book for weekly discussions, we will discuss it as a whole. We each read at different speeds, so if you come across an event that seems spoiler-y, please consider using the ‘spoiler’ function.