"The Poppy War" - Full Discussion *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

So, what did you think? Did the blend of brutality, historical fiction and the YA vibe work for you? How about the context and detail, did that add or detract from the book's merits?

[Suzanne]

I really liked the first half - but I'm kind of a sucker for the whole "magic school" thing. I didn't like the second half as much - it wasn't really the brutality that put me off (although wow extreme at times) but...just didn't enjoy it as much.

[Gabi]

If I only knew what I should think!

I was determined to not like the book. The first half had the ingredients, I don't care for in reading: young know-it-all is-always-the-best girl, magical school, excessive narrations of marial arts and philosophy/religion (I like the latter, but not in such an abundance). I guess, if I had been reading the book, the chances would have been that I had put it down.
Yet since I was listening to the audiobook, I could do something else besides.

And then the second part. I was warned by several people at that time, so that I succumbed to my curiosity and read R.F. Kuang's blog. Knowing that the Nanjing Massacre acted as a model for her war narrations changed something for me. If I would have known this before, I wouldn't have picked up the book (I don't read/watch/play anything connected to real wars). But since I was already in the middle of it, I went on listening.
And as horrifying as it was (chapter 21 certainly is the most cruel and heartwrenching piece of writing I ever encountered), it changed the mood of the narration and my acceptance of it.
Helped along by the excellent performance of Emily Woo Zeller as narrator the second part totally enthralled me.

Kuang didn't choose the easy way out. There was absolutely nothing easy in this story. She described war as the monster that it is, there was no hero worship (in her writing that is), in the end everybody was guilty. No compromise, nothing. This had me in awe. (I hope this will not be reverted in later books)

If it was only the second half, "The Poppy War" would easily be up with my most fav books. It is as if I was reading two books.
With the first one I couldn't connect, the second one had me in shivers and tears.

I must emphasize that I think this has to do with Emily Woo Zeller's reading up to some point. Her urgent voice was perfect for the second half. I don't know if the book would have had the same deep impact, if I had read it myself.

Edit: while I was fighting with my English, Suzanne posted her impression: I had to grin - we are exactly the other way round.

[Suzanne]

Gabi - that makes my day! I love that we were kind of the exact opposite with this. You made some great points about the second half.

One thing that I didn't like about the first half (or at least wondered about) was the whole keeping herself awake basically all the time to study. As a teacher, well and as a long - time student, total lack of sleep really seems to slam cognitive thinking. Seems like it would have made her test taking worse, not better :)

[Gabi]

Suzanne wrote: "Gabi - that makes my day! I love that we were kind of the exact opposite with this. You made some great points about the second half.

Absolutely! When I pressed "post" and saw your post coming up, I was like "ooops!" ;) - This is the beauty, that each of us finds different jewels in the same ground.

As for the staying awake: I had the impression that she somehow managed to get into some kind of trance like that, beyond the point of need for sleep (well I would have just fallen asleep in the tests like that)

[Ariana]

Suzanne wrote: "One thing that I didn't like about the first half (or at least wondered about) was the whole keeping herself awake basically all the time to study. As a teacher, well and as a long - time student, total lack of sleep really seems to slam cognitive thinking. Seems like it would have made her test taking worse, not better :) "

With you on this, Suzanne! I felt like I just had to chalk it up to "I guess that's how things work in magic school."

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I assumed it was a "teen" thing. I remember being able to sleep 2 hours, take tests, and then go to practices after. Not, you know, for prolonged periods, but as needed. And maybe she was also already magical? It didn't matter if she "burned the candle at both ends" because she was feeding her sleep deprivation to a source that burns eternal?

I thought the beginning was good quality but not particularly distinct. In fact, it felt like a more brutal reskin of the Song of the Lioness series to me--the introduction of the bumpkin into the palace, the wealthy, handsome enemy, the beatdowns, the training montage that showed how she came into her own, picking fights outside her weight class, unconventional training methods...

It felt *very* familiar.

The second half really came into its own for me. I loved the mythology of it, and how magic/the Bizarre Children were depicted. Like you said, Gabi, I loved that no one was clearly "without fault" in this war. The only one who has anything like integrity in this war is Jiang, who left his pupil to fight and die alone. Is that "better?"

I wish the end had been a liiiittle less abrupt. It seemed like a lot of atrocity and then one big "the end!" button with the Phoenix. I was hoping for a bit more of an explanation and time for the dust to settle--if you'll excuse the pun!

And, given that there were gods in this, I wonder if we needed quite so many viscerally upsetting moments? I got the context, and I think a lot of what was said did a great job making us feel the horror. But some felt like it was just there to show me how unstable someone was, or to shock me with the horrors of war, and I don't like that feeling. I have fairly raw nerves, they don't need much shocking!

[Travis]

What I most loved about the book is that hinge structure: where it gave us the very familiar story in the first half and then pulled the rug out from underneath us and unsettling all of our expectations. I wondered almost if the novel was trying to critique the coziness I was experiencing and enjoying in the school setting.

What I didn't love, though, was how detached I felt from the characters during the second half. I really struggled to understand their motivations or interior lives and think this might be because, as Allison mentions, the latter half of the novel moves so incredibly rapidly.

[Shomeret]

Suzanne wrote: "Gabi - that makes my day! I love that we were kind of the exact opposite with this. You made some great points about the second half.

One thing that I didn't like about the first half (or at least..."

Yes, that is definitely true, but students do it. When you're a student you believe, contrary to evidence, that if only you put in enough time in studying, you'll ace the exam. When I was in college, I had the stamina to pull all nighters and I would feel exhilarated afterward as if an all nighter in itself was an achievement. Now I value my sleep more.

[Michael]

It seems a lot of people either loved the first half and disliked the second, or just the opposite. I'm afraid I fall into the later group. The book started out good, with an interesting setting and a protagonist I could root for. It was not only the grimness of the story in the second half that turned me off, but the changes in the main character. She seemed almost like a different person in the second half of the book, and one I found myself caring about less and less. I even considered giving up on the book more than once, but by that time I was so close to the end I decided to tough it out and finish. In the end, it's probably not a book I'll ever recommend, and it's doubtful I'll ever read the eventual sequels.

[Aleksandra]

I agree with Travis 100%, contrast between school and war setting is there to wake us and amplify horrors. I enjoyed first half because it reminded me so much of Tortall books, as Alison said story is similar to Alanna’s and Kel’s books. Also, there’s one sentence that reminded me of Wheel of Time and Aiels; there’s a phrase which said (I’ll rephrase it since I don’t remember it exactly) “death is not nothing but waking from a dream (life is a dream)”...
Second half is scary and cruel and it’s all that war is, and this honest brutality had great impact on me. I also agree that end should not be so abrupt, but is there actually an ending? War continues, and there’s clear picture of what will follow. I liked the mythology and different approaches to the gods and their powers, and distinct line of what they can do. They can choose vessel but at the end it is up to that person to accept or decline god’s will and power. Until the very end I expected that Rin will choose “the greater good”, but again there’s surprise and twist.
As conclusion, I’ve enjoyed reading this book very much although I did wanted some different endings (Nezha for example, I enjoyed his and Rin’s friendship and hoped that he’ll come later again especially since there’s was a hint that he’s shaman too).

[J.W.]

I haven’t read the whole book yet (just 50 pages in) but the party where the carriage driver turns around to run down the kid after he hit him was interesting to me. With the author’s background I wonder if it is commentary on the phenomenon of this happening in China today.

I don’t want to link because many things I saw had video, but apparently the policy is that if you cripple someone in an accident you are the one who pays the bills. This has allegedly increased instances of going back and running people over again.

However, as I’ve been reading about it some have suggested it is sensationalized from a few isolated incidents.

Just wondering if this part of the book (p 37) might be a commentary on real world events.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Well said, John! The second book was just announced, so I hope many of you will read it and then report back!

[Ariana]

This book was not for me. I was planning on skipping it due to the content warnings, but it came in at the library while I was waiting for others so I decided to give it a shot. I was pleasantly surprised by the first half, which was, as others have described, fairly fun if awfully familiar. The last half was a huge slog. I was invested enough to finish, but the amount of terrible things that kept happening felt totally gratiutous at some point. And then we don't even get to find out what was going on with the Empresses because there's going to be another book? Ugh.
I was also not a huge fan of what felt like the YA-ness of the main character. I felt like there was a lot of "telling" not "showing" with her character traits, like how people kept being told how brave she was.
I did like the whole idea of shamans and the Pantheon, the part at the school was pretty engaging, and I liked the "band of misfits" at the beginning of the second half.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Finished this last night. I do think I enjoyed the first half more, but there were also parts of the second half I enjoyed. I think the last 20% or so was dragged out a little unnecessarily. Pretty much everything from the mountain on- I just felt like: Are we There yet?

Also- the ending felt a little anticlimactic to me. Rin became a Phoenix and lit everything on fire. The end. Altan’s choice to leave her in charge felt off, and her character was incredibly wishy washy.

She was so dead set on doing what she did, then afterward she seemed to immediately regret it. Literally everyone told her not to do it, and she insisted that’s what she wanted. I feel like if her convictions were that strong that she was willing to wipe out an entire island, it would take her much longer to feel guilty about it.

I’m nitpicking the ending because that’s the last part I read, but I did enjoy most everything else. As others have said, the shamanistic elements, the hexagrams, Jiang, some of the battle scenes, Nezha turning into a friend, Kitay and the parade, and the school “fight club”.

For some reason, even during the really dark parts, the tone felt YA to me through out and I can’t quite put my finger on why. I’m thinking maybe it’s Rin’s voice?

[Oleksandr]

I finished it last night and I’m in the camp of people, who preferred the second half. I know a bit of Chinese history (several online courses, not real specialization mind you), so I saw quite a few allusions. The first part looked like a generic magic school to me, with only highlight the decision of Rin to destroy her womb (I haven’t expected it and I like the author’s courage to have it in the book). I also liked that Nikan is multi-ethnic country, united by the force – current official Chinese approach is that they are a single people. I was prepared to the Golyn Niis tragedy for I was well aware about Nanking and the depictions are almost copy-paste from witness accounts (horrible but true). And I liked that there are no good sides at the war.
What put me off a bit is vagueness about tech levels: on the one hand clear medieval stuff like armor and swords/axes (polearms would be more correct, but almost to fantasy uses them), on the other we have talks about technological superiority of Mugen, but we see only gas (?) attack and repeating crossbow (only one – more a curio than a mass weapon). Ships aren’t even steam-powered…

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

I liked both parts for different reasons. The beginning, too obviously familiar parts were briefly offputting but Kuang moved through them so fast it was kind of enjoyable. Almost as if she had to give a nod to traditional fantasy story telling and then move on to her own story.

The second part was more impactful and dramatic and gritty which you don't usually see in the magic school/leveling up type of novels

[Oleksandr]

BTW, folks, do you think that martial artistry was added as a 'Chinese flavor'? Because while actual military schools, which prepare commanders (!) do try that their pupils are fit, but this is less important than good strategy and commanding skills.

[Norton]

When I first started reading I thought the story sounded like something I'd read before. It's sort of a cliché, but the writing is good and as I got further into it I had to finish the read.

[Oleksandr]

Amanda wrote: ". A lot of the side characters were intriguing. Sidenote: I don't think Altan or Nezha is gone. "

I fully agree on Nezha, who will regenerate. As for Altan, his bomb-like end seems to me destroyed his body and soul, so no traces to detect

re A-bombs, I think the conflagration of Mugen was an allusion to it

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I also got the feeling Nezha isn't really gone, but it might also be wishful thinking on my part. That's a good point about Altan and Chaghan not feeling his death... although I'd be less upset if he really was gone. I liked him at the beginning and not so much at the end.

[Gabi]

@Amanda: I didn't like Rin either, and I had the feeling that this is what the author was going for.
Interesting point with Altan. I thought he was dead for good, cause I loved the line where somebody said that she would paint the world (forgot the correct phrase) red with Altan's blood.

[Mareike]

I think Altan is definitely gone. But not Nezha. There were too many allusions and clues sprinkled in when he first reappears.

[Norton]

I sort of agree with your assessment. I probably wouldn't have given it more than 3 stars. The author constructed the story, but Rin is the storyteller. She is what she is like or dislike. You found the story shocking. That's a good way of putting it. I read fiction for enjoyment. In my opinion, The Poppy Wars was well written but, for me, it wasn't an enjoyable read perhaps because I was reading Snuff at the same time.

[Soo]

I speed read the book. The story jumped the shark within the first few chapters and then it ran with it for the rest. I wish the author would have spent time on making up a world with a few Asian influenced touches. This is not that. It's more of a direct ripoff with a lot of wire-fu shenanigans. I love wire-fu movies and shows. They are amazing. This book was a poor copy of cool things. I don't believe anyone left the story thinking: Rin is the good guy.

At least, I hope not.

[Jemppu]

Well, finally past the 21st chapter
(view spoiler)[And I can well see how it might have upset some. Quite Medieval.

The 'surprise' about Altan hardly came as one though. I thought we were supposed to be on page about that, with the constant allusions towards him from the very beginning, and him indeed 'smelling like smoke' and if regarding his 'god' and the whole of this narration as a metaphor for struggles in addiction - one's personal 'Poppy War'. As I've been doing since Rin stuck those poppy seeds in her pocket and tried her hardest to resist 'calling the gods' - and failing to do so wreaked havoc to people around her, got labelled as the 'second Altan' (another clue) and was sent off to a 'special facility' among people of her kind.

Only thing remotely keeping me interested in this litany of eye-witness accounts of war horrors, and adventures of magical teen soldiers, are any hints of further secondary readings.

Doesn't even matter if that'll yield to anything in the end - it's keeping me somewhat invested while the narration drones on like a guide on some Inquisition Horrors tour, trying to keep the kids entertained by historical atrocities. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Soo wrote: "I speed read the book. The story jumped the shark within the first few chapters and then it ran with it for the rest. I wish the author would have spent time on making up a world with a few Asian i..."

I don't think we're supposed to think Rin is the good guy. At least it didn't seem like that to me. (view spoiler)[It's quite clear throughout that the gods are a bad influence, I think, with the phoenix clearly being the worst. It's a more or less thinly veiled metaphor on the corrupting influence of power, I'd say, and it's clear that Rin's hunger for it - clearly another variation on the topic of addiction - will not lead to good things. (hide spoiler)]

I'm not familiar enough with wire-fu to comment on that, but still think that the story stayed conventional in terms of plot development, if somewhat darker than other YA novels (view spoiler)[because Rin ultimately gives in to the seduction by the phoenix. (hide spoiler)].

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

(You don't need to use spoiler tags in this thread ^^ Go nuts! Burn everything! Oh no. I think I'm channeling the gods too much.)

[Mareike]

Ha! Truth.
Just thought I'd be circumspect since some on the thread don't seem to be quite done yet. Erring on the side of caution and all.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I don't think there's a rule against them :) I just don't want people to feel they need to whisper if they don't wanna

[Mareike]

Oh, I didn't feel like you were throwing a rule book at me. All good.

Currently wondering why the shift in the secobd half didn't have quite the same inpact on me as on others. Except for the truly harrowing bits.
Ididn't find the war storyline super surprising. And I think some of the secondary characters could have been developed some more.
So maybe it's that combination.

[Jemppu]

Finished. And... I'm still convinced there might be a whole another story read between the actual written words. This could all work as a disguised telling of an individual's struggle with a drug addiction.

But if judging only the straight forward narrative, a YA story of supernatural, outcast soldier kids battling great evils to defend their nation didn't really fascinate me. Though the ending was powerful.

The again, I'm not sure if it would've been, if I wasn't constantly viewing it as a metaphor for the narrator (Rin) first loathing the drug, then slipping to having a taste, and finally slowly succumbing to using the drug, her acceptance to now 'summoning the gods' on regular, thinking herself on top of things, and what all that might lead to.

Still not quite sure who the baddie here will end up being, the 'Phoenix' or the 'Empress', or who knows what else. 'Rin' herself? Or in best, most 'true' scenario: there is no one big evil, only unfortunate circumstances.

Or I'm just amusing myself too much with this idea, so that this wouldn't have been a complete waste of time X)

Thus, I have no idea what to rate this. I was sure that as this is it would be 2 to 3 max, but if this truly is something more... then it might be quite genius.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

That’s a neat idea Jemppu. I’ll have to read it again some day to look more specifically at it in that light.

[Mareike]

I agree with your reading, Jemina. I think that's definitely what's going on in terms of the "power of the gods".

I think there won't be any clear good or bad guys by the end of the trilogy. I don't even think there's any of those left at the end of this book.

[Jemppu]

Mareike wrote: "I agree with your reading, Jemina. I think that's definitely what's going on in terms of the "power of the gods".

I think there won't be any clear good or bad guys by the end of the trilogy. I don..."

I don't mean this regarding 'Rin the magical orphan warrior' character as she's told in the story though, (although, yes, "the power of god" metaphor was clear even within the 'actual' story), but her and all the rest of the characters and 'monsters' and lores and battles and other events in the story as allegories of a possible separate 'narrator' and their struggles and experiences with an addiction: trying to defend their 'nation' - their self - from powers greater than themself, with people around them - some of them hurt by her actions, some battling the same war as her, enabling her even. An individual's personal, inner 'Poppy War', if you will.

Or that's how I kept trying to twist it anyway, to keep my mind invested in the otherwise seemingly quite generic adventure.

[Meagan]

This book is not YA. Below is the link to R.F Kuang's twitter post covering that topic.

https://mobile.twitter.com/kuangrf/st...

[Norton]

Great discussion! The Poppy Wars is definitely not YA. I said I would give the book 3 stars. Maybe that was pushing it. What I've learned from being with this group is that readers can react differently to the same book. I've tried books that were supposed to be good reads. I've really enjoyed some while disliking others. I have preferences as we all do. But the writer has a responsibility to the reader. The story should be well conceived, the writing good and the ending rewarding. I found the writing good.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Too true, Norton!

I am a little annoyed by an author using all YA tropes getting frustrated that people compare it to YA. Harry Potter also isn't YA. Ninefox is fantasy and Dragonriders of Pern is scifi, according to their authors.

I think it's fair if others use different definitions. And while I think there's a lot to be said for presentation and how we define books (UF by a woman? Must be paranormal romance. Romance story by a man? Must be historical fiction), the use of magic school, bullies in schools, a teenage protagonist thinking like a teenager about things, dealing with the sort of turmoil we expect in teen-driven magic school/apocalyptic fiction, using scenarios that parallel beloved YA/MG books...

I would not recommend this to a young teen but at the same time it sure as hell reads like it's attempting to get on the YA bandwagon, or comment on the state of YA books.

[Mareike]

Norton wrote: "Great discussion! The Poppy Wars is definitely not YA. I said I would give the book 3 stars. Maybe that was pushing it. What I've learned from being with this group is that readers can react differ..."

Oh, part III is certainly not YA. But I would still argue that a lot of part I uses very established YA narrative patterns and tropes. So I guess it's a hybrid fantasy incorporating YA elements? Definitely wouldn't shelf it in the YA section if I were running a bookstore.

@Jemina: Ah, okay. It's a fascinating idea and I would love if that's what the story turned out to be in the following books (which I'm not yet sure I'll read). So far, though, I don't think I've seen (or rather heard) any hints towards that.

[Soo]

The whole book read like a YA novel for me. I can see why people separate the book into two parts, but it did not change tone for me in that manner. In my experience, the style this book tries to emulate always uses training as a setup for battle/revenge/etc.

For me, Jade City and Ninefox Gambit (in different ways) were better books that used a similar frame of reference as this book.

I don't have to like the character to love the writing. Blackbirds is great and I really dislike Miriam Black. The Magicians series was a rollercoaster of What the Heck am I reading? But I am glad I read it all because book three was good.

The writing for Poppy War is fine, but it did not appeal or engage me. Something needs to strike a cord with me and I found myself to be blaise about the whole. All of the details that caught my interest was quickly dulled by what followed.

I've been exploring the YA section of the bookstore alot the past few years. There are a bunch of books in that section that deal with hard topics. In my book records, I would shelve this in Fiction - YA - Fantasy.

[Jemppu]

I'd say the difference is in the usage of term "YA".

I myself mean to use it like I would an adjective - not a noun denoting a category name. It avoids labeling the book as a whole: the story is "YA", meaning the narration has YA tropes in it. The book might not be labelled YA, but it sure tastes like it - uses a lot of the same spices, even if it might have some other stuff in it as well.

[Mareike]

Jemppu wrote: "I'd say the difference is in the usage of term "YA".

I myself mean to use it like I would an adjective - not a noun denoting a category name. It avoids labeling the book as a whole: the story is "..."

This is a very good way of putting it.

[Wen]

I almost finish part one and feel a bit sad about the story…(sorry, I haven’t finished the book yet and already want to join the conversation…)

I feel this book is similar to the documentary, Class Divide, that I saw this year. This private school, Avenues, locates in NYC and the tuition is 54k/per year (from nursery to G12). Normal people(like us?) could probably afford only one kid to go to this school, ahh, then what about the rest? :) Then that kid will be like Rin, feels so isolate there… This sounds a bit depressing…

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Woof. Absolutely, Wen. :(

[Wen]

I am in part three now and I feel stupid that I am upsetting about part one. I mean what is part three? This is way too much>_<

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

<3 I agree

[Wen]

I know I cannot live in a bubble, but part three???!!! Anyway, it’ll be like this: at the end of part one, teachers and first years went to Venice for the summer camp. They stayed at Aman Venice and had a wonderful summer there. Period, done, end of the story.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Haha! And argued over who got to have poppy seed bagels and who had to have plain. That summer was forever afterwards called "The Poppy War."

[Wen]

Yes yes:)

[Anthony]

I’m not reading the other posts yet because I still have a little less than a third of the book left but I wanted to post that I’m having a bit of a love-tolerate relationship with this book. I find it fascinating in moments, and a little frustratingly distancing in others. I really need to feel emotional authenticity in the characters I’m reading about, and there’s just something about Rin’s inner state of being that doesn’t always ring true for me. And that’s the source of my frustration. Did anyone else share that feeling?