The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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Nicholas Nickleby
Nicholas Nickleby
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NN, Chp. 01-05
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I loved that scene where Noggs is yanking on Nicholas's pants leg. Nicholas looks down wondering what on earth. I imagine he thought it was one of the children, but no, it's Noggs. Second time I've heard "Stop," "Stop" regarding Noggs, but he's out the door or beyond hearing (sure he is) each time.
Gotta tell you Kim, that last poster/illustration of Squeers you posted makes him look like a Game Show host. That hair is right out of central props.
He kind of looks like a younger Bob Barker.Wait ... Wait ... I'm counting years ... Yes, yes, it could be a younger Bob Barker.
Peter wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Excuse me, but did I just hear Squeers say, "My dears." Yes, yes, I'm sure he said it. Can't be anything else. Oh, Lordy, let's pray we're not going down that hole again."..."I think part of the reason penniless gentlefolk can still afford tips and maids is that there's such an extreme wealth distribution, as Peter's examples underscore. The upper-class characters are poor only in the sense that they're having trouble maintaining their place on the upper edge of the class divide.
There's a scene in one of Disraeli's Sybil trilogy novels, I can't remember which one, where a young man is "ruined" through no fault of his own, and his mentor tells him to buck up because would he rather lose an arm or a leg instead of his fortune?--and his response is of course not; guess I'll have to get a job. And we all know of novels where a penniless heroine has to go work as a governess or stay with her relatives.
This makes me even more curious about Noggs, who does appear to be a gentleman who slipped off the edge, and what that will come to mean in a story where slipping off the edge is a threat to the main character from the start, and gave his father the broken heart that killed him.
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I am doing everything I can to repress that memory."
Thank God I never had such a genuinely vicious teacher. We had a very sarcastic history teacher, but most of us really liked him and his lessons, and he was definitely one of the reasons why I studied that subject later on.
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Were the chapters/installments of his later books longer than the chapters/installments of his earlier books?
It does see..."
Was it not also that the shorter novels - I am sure I remember this in connection with Hard Times and Great Expectations - were written as weekly, and not as monthly instalments, and so the chapters would, of course, be shorter since Dickens could not guarantee the same output on a weekly basis - no matter how much of a workaholic he was.
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Yes, it is definitely strange that a young man like Nicholas, who has to pinch every penny, should hire a porter instead of carrying his own luggage. Maybe, grunting and sweating under fardels, even if they contained one's own property, was simply not something a gentleman would do, and Nicholas doubtless regards himself as a gentleman's son and therefore as a young gentleman. His uncle Ralph - a realist and a caring relative - will set the young man right about that, probably, showing him that he is not supposed to give himself any airs ... ;-)
As to the housemaid, I have read somewhere that having a female servant was quite common even in lower middle-class families, because it was not expensive to hire them - and the daily chores were also so time-consuming and numerous that they would have eaten up all the housewife's time (and nerves). Male servants, however, were regarded as a status symbol. Remember when Mr. Pickwick was surprised in the young ladies' school, and somebody said that he had a manservant and must therefore be respectable?
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Excuse me, but did I just hear Squeers say, "My dears." Yes, yes, I'm sure he said it. Can't be anything else. Oh, Lordy, let's pray we're not going down that hole again."That jumped out at me, too, Xan! When you think about the hundreds of characters Dickens created, it's amazing that there weren't more overlapping speech patterns.
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I'm having trouble, based on Dickens' descriptions, putting together mental images of Squeers or Noggs. I'd hoped the illustrations would help, but Noggs seems too scary, and Squeers, not scary enough. As for favorite characters so far, Noggs is the most intriguing to me. I can't wait to find out what's in that letter he gave Nicholas. One thing I've learned about Dickens -- always pay attention to the clerks! And Miss Le Creevy seems like a decent soul. I love that she paint miniatures. What an interesting profession! Painstaking work, I would think.
The biggest mystery to me is the boy who died. Who was he? Why was Ralph paying his tuition?? Let's face it - Ralph doesn't seem to be a philanthropist. So the fact that he just happened to have that want ad doesn't seem like much of a coincidence now.
Dotheboys - do the boys? I'm not sure how to pronounce it, or how to interpret it!
The illustrations of Noggs all remind me of a cricket. His description makes him sound like he's quite ill. Must be the alcohol.I'm with you Mary Lou about Dotheboys, but it is/was a real place at the time. Is notorious too strong a word? So Dickens didn't make up the name. Someone else is playing with words.
Did I miss a boy dying in 1 - 5?
One of the saddest deaths in Dickens work is Jo, the Crossing Sweeper. (Disclaimer: I haven't read all his work.)
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "...Dotheboys... it is/was a real place at the time. Is notorious too strong a word? So Dickens didn't make up the name. Someone else is playing with words.Did I miss a boy dying in 1 - 5? ..."
I hadn't realized that Dotheboys was real. Yikes. I wonder what the proprietors thought about being portrayed (unmasked?) by Dickens.
As for the boy dying - yes, Xan! I think it may be very important going forward! Here is the passage:
'Perhaps you recollect me?' said Ralph, looking narrowly at the
schoolmaster.
'You paid me a small account at each of my half-yearly visits to
town, for some years, I think, sir,' replied Squeers.
'I did,' rejoined Ralph.
'For the parents of a boy named Dorker, who unfortunately--'
'--unfortunately died at Dotheboys Hall,' said Ralph, finishing the
sentence.
'I remember very well, sir,' rejoined Squeers. 'Ah! Mrs Squeers,
sir, was as partial to that lad as if he had been her own; the
attention, sir, that was bestowed upon that boy in his illness! Dry
toast and warm tea offered him every night and morning when he
couldn't swallow anything--a candle in his bedroom on the very night
he died--the best dictionary sent up for him to lay his head upon--I
don't regret it though. It is a pleasant thing to reflect that one
did one's duty by him.'
Ah, yes. I was off on a tangent. Thanks, Mary Lou.
Whoops! Dotheboys is Dickens name for it. The Bowes Academy was the real name. So Do-The-Boys is an interesting name Dickens has given it.
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Yes. Ralph Nickleby and Squeers have a past history. Perhaps a bit of plot to file away for another time?
My favorite description so far has been of the plots of land outside London houses, termed "gardens":"a melancholy little plot of ground behind them, usually fenced in by four high whitewashed walls and frowned upon by stacks of chimneys, in which there withers on from year to year a crippled tree, that makes a show of putting forth a few leaves late in autumn, when other trees shed theirs, and drooping in the effort, lingers on all crackled and smoke-dried till the following season, when it repeats the same process, and perhaps if the weather be particularly genial, even tempts some rheumatic sparrow to chirrup in its branches."
I especially love the picture that is brought to mind with the phrase "frowned upon by stacks of chimneys".
My least favorite character is Mr. Squeers, of course. I only have to point to the breakfast scene and the gross inequality in the amount of food he received compared to the children as my reason. I wanted to reach through the pages and give Squeers a good thump across the head. A close second least favorite character is Mr. Ralph Nickleby himself.
My favorite character is Newman Noggs. It seems like he knows a lot of Ralph's character and what makes him tick, and I have a feeling he has some secret dirt on his employer that may come in useful in the future. I'm dying to know what is in the letter that he gave to Nicholas. I am guessing that Noggs was probably not surprised at Ralph's lack of surprise to learn of his brother's death because he has probably been witness to many such occasions which should have elicited some sort of emotional reaction from Ralph, but where there was none.
My favorite scene was the overly puffed-up important discussion concerning the United Metropolitan Improved Hot Muffin and Crumpet Baking and Punctual Delivery Company. Of course it all revolves around the goal of lining the pockets of everyone involved in the meeting, with no real concern with the people who provide the muffins nor the people who purchase the muffins. I couldn't help but smile every time the word "muffin" was uttered by the time this scene was nearing its end.
This book is off to a good start for me. Definitely some interesting characters with some mysteries in the wings (Noggs' letter) and I'm filled with curiosity as to what the school will be like and what Nicholas's responsibilities and living conditions will be like. Will he be fed watered down milk and a slim slice of bread, or will he be treated to a platter of beef? My suspicions lean towards the former.
Alissa wrote: "Dickens also wrote in a letter that he watered down the abuse and added comedy, so the readers wouldn't get too disgusted by the realities of the school."That is really sad. Thanks for that article, Alissa.
Tristram wrote: "I really enjoyed the Muffin Monologues"Muffin Monologues! I love it the phrase, Tristram! :)
Kim wrote: "The schoolmaster and his companion looked steadily at each other for a few seconds, and then exchanged a very meaning smile.Chapter 4
Fred Barnard"
I like this illustration of Squeers and Snawley as it is evident they are both in on the scheme of getting Snawley's stepsons out of the way.
Oh, and I like the Furniss illustration of Newman Noggs! It looks just how I imagined Noggs.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Nicholas pays a porter to carry his box? Carry your own box. My goodness, you're 19 years old!This is true too when it comes to good people of modest income. They can't afford to travel or go to the opera, but somehow they can afford a maid or other household help. I've lost count of the number of times my reaction has been, "You have a maid? How?""
I've had these same thoughts, Xan. I guess I've always chalked it up to "that was how it was done back in the day" so it was expected to have a porter carry your box and even a modest household to have a maid.
Now in today's world, I definitely raise an eyebrow when I find out that a middle income household hires a maid to come to their house regularly to clean. I assume everyone these days cleans their own house and the thought would never occur to me to have a maid come to my house and clean up after me. Although when I get to daydreaming, it does sound very nice!
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Gotta tell you Kim, that last poster/illustration of Squeers you posted makes him look like a Game Show host. That hair is right out of central props."Ha ha! I just had another look and you pegged it. Perfect game show host hair.
Tristram wrote: "As to the housemaid, I have read somewhere that having a female servant was quite common even in lower middle-class families, because it was not expensive to hire them - and the daily chores were also so time-consuming and numerous that they would have eaten up all the housewife's time (and nerves)."That makes sense, I forget how much more time consuming the work was. Simply washing the laundry must have been a nightmare.
Linda wrote: "Now in today's world, I definitely raise an eyebrow when I find out that a middle income household hires a maid to come to their house regularly to clean. I assume everyone these days cleans their own house and the thought would never occur to me to have a maid come to my house and clean up after me. ..."Plus you have to pick up/clean before the maid comes.
Mary Lou wrote: "a candle in his bedroom on the very nighthe died--the best dictionary sent up for him to lay his head upon..."
Why is poor dying Dorker laying his head on a dictionary? Am I being too literal if I'm visualizing it as making a very hard pillow? He doesn't sound like he was in a state to read or study.
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Muffin Monologues! I love it the phrase, Tristram! :)"
The Muffin Monologues - could be all the things I say during my tea break at work.
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It was a bleak autumn day, nearing 6 o' clock, and the effect of the tea and scones we had at Barnard Castle was beginning to wear off, giving way to the cold of the air and the drizzle around us, and at the time it seemed perfectly natural to me that that was the building that Dickens referred to as Dotheboys Hall.
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Status symbols or assumptions about what one is definitely entitled to have changed, however. Nowadays, for instance, it's no longer a hired servant but a mobile phone, or a flat TV screen. No matter if a family lives on social security money or not, you will probably find a flat TV screen in their living-room, and every family member will have a smartphone.
Tristram wrote: "Linda wrote: "Now in today's world, I definitely raise an eyebrow when I find out that a middle income household hires a maid to come to their house regularly to clean. I assume everyone these days..."The smartphone thing is really a good analogy. I used to get annoyed at students with smartphones who complained about the price of my course texts, but eventually I realized a lot of them have on-call jobs and need the phones to stay employed, plus do who-knows-what-else. It is a question of what your society requires for you to keep up a baseline level of participation--a phone, a laundress. Nobody needs either of those things, but you're out of the loop and significant opportunities if you don't have them.
(My husband still doesn't have a smartphone, but he already has a steady job with dependable hours, and for that matter a wife.)
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By the way, my smartphone was a present from my wife - the same kind of present the Greek gave the people from Troy.
As I have never striven to any ambition beyond that archaic speciman known as a "housewife", I must admit that I just don't get couples who both go to work, but pay for maids, childcare, dog walkers, and landscapers. Not to mention work wardrobes, commuting costs, and lunches. Of course, in the case of the Nicklebys (and so many Jane Austin families), they aren't even working, just frittering away an inheritance.
It's been a long time since I've read David Copperfield, but Snawley sounds like a precursor to Murdstone. How sad that women had to marry such men for security, at the high cost of losing their children.
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And an inheritance can be frittered away more quickly, and thoroughly, if you employ people to do the housework. This way, you also have more free time to squander your money in.
Hmmmm, I am almost sounding like Ralph Nickleby, aren't I?
The smartphone is a perfect analogy, Tristram. I just got my first smartphone less than a year ago, and only because my husband's old flip phone finally died. I then gave him my flip phone and got myself a smartphone after having an experience where I thought I knew where I was driving (and so I didn't print out directions or a map), but ended up getting lost on the way and not being able to reach my husband or brother to help me figure out where I was, I had been thoroughly frustrated. Mary Lou - my husband and I both work and sent our kids to daycare while they were young. I would have loved to have quit working, but we would have not been able to afford live on just my husband's income, so we sucked it up for the few years that we did shelled out money for very expensive childcare. Thankfully we don't pay for maids or landscapers and both of our "wardrobes" are not expensive given my husband builds boats and I work in a lab (we shop mostly at second-hand shops). Even if I had taken a break, I think I would have had a hard time getting back into the workforce while not having been in the lab for that amount of time as the skills at the bench change rather rapidly.
Linda wrote: "Even if I had taken a break, I think I would have had a hard time getting back into the workforce while not having been in the lab for that amount of time as the skills at the bench change rather rapidly..."Uh huh, I know that feeling. Childcare took up over 1/3 of my pay for a year or so, but I knew I wanted a job to return to eventually, and I knew mine wouldn't sit around open and waiting for me.
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I have quite a huge workload but can shift a lot of it around so that I can pick up my daugther from nursery school or take my son to guitar and fencing lessons, and I also prod him into doing his homework.
Sometimes, my mother comes over for a day or a couple of days, to look after the children - but my wife's parents are in Argentina, and so they cannot stand in when both my wife and I have to do work stuff.
Hmmm, however, my daughter is such a clever and sensible girl at 5 now that maybe next year she can also baby-sit her 11-year-old brother when needs be ;-)
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-t...
It looks like such a pleasant place in this photo.
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This was a really good start to the novel and I am anxious to continue. I did take a break of several days due to a trip but I am glad to be back to it. I am enjoying the background material and photos on this discussion thread. I did make a mistake by looking up Smike and finding a spoiler, I am bad about doing that. I will try to refrain in future. I am very anxious to find out what is in that letter given to Nicholas by Noggs and also who "the Stranger" is.
Bobbie - I love our discussions in this group. I learn so much more than I would reading the books independently. You're not the only one who came across a spoiler. I found out 'what' but I'm still looking forward to learning 'how' and 'why'!
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"Nineteen, eh!" said Ralph, "And what do you mean to do for your bread, sir?
Chapter 3
Charles Edmund Brock 1931
Text Illustrated:
‘The doctors could attribute it to no particular disease,’ said Mrs Nickleby; shedding tears. ‘We have too much reason to fear that he died of a broken heart.’
‘Pooh!’ said Ralph, ‘there’s no such thing. I can understand a man’s dying of a broken neck, or suffering from a broken arm, or a broken head, or a broken leg, or a broken nose; but a broken heart!—nonsense, it’s the cant of the day. If a man can’t pay his debts, he dies of a broken heart, and his widow’s a martyr.’
‘Some people, I believe, have no hearts to break,’ observed Nicholas, quietly.
‘How old is this boy, for God’s sake?’ inquired Ralph, wheeling back his chair, and surveying his nephew from head to foot with intense scorn.
‘Nicholas is very nearly nineteen,’ replied the widow.
‘Nineteen, eh!’ said Ralph; ‘and what do you mean to do for your bread, sir?’
‘Not to live upon my mother,’ replied Nicholas, his heart swelling as he spoke.
‘You’d have little enough to live upon, if you did,’ retorted the uncle, eyeing him contemptuously.
‘Whatever it be,’ said Nicholas, flushed with anger, ‘I shall not look to you to make it more.’
‘Nicholas, my dear, recollect yourself,’ remonstrated Mrs. Nickleby.
‘Dear Nicholas, pray,’ urged the young lady.
‘Hold your tongue, sir,’ said Ralph. ‘Upon my word! Fine beginnings, Mrs Nickleby—fine beginnings!’
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Kate Nickleby
William Powell Frith
Hi Xan
You might want to let out a primal scream now for there will be certain phrases that will repeat often in the coming weeks. To avoid spoilers I’ll say no more. Dickens did enjoy tagging phrases to certain characters. I really enjoy NN but as you will see in my future commentaries there are some things that really bother me. And yes one is the tag lines of certain still unnamed characters.
As to the maids and the tipping, I too have marvelled at times how the economy worked. Many poor families did employ what was generally termed a “maid of all work.” This person most often was a very poor female who was young. Basically (s)he worked for a roof over her head and scraps of food. With no labour laws and no minimum wage it must have been a terrible existence.
Today tips are rather extravagant at times. I would imagine if we tipped a porter or attendant a dime it would result in a lawsuit. In Victorian times, any money was welcomed by the desperately poor.