With Her in Ourland - Ch. 6-12

[Silver]

Here you may discuss the last chapters of With Her in Ourland. Please be aware that if you have not finished the book spoilers may be posted here.

[Emma]

I think everybody else has given up on this (or is too busy elsewhere,) but in case you want to know what happened next, the answer is: not a lot, in terms of plot at least.

The second half of the book contains even more philosophising and less story than the first half. The narrator records Ellador's thoughts on poverty and inequality, feminism, religion and education, with only very sporadic attempts at putting them into any sort of narrative framework. This leads to a bizarre effect when, in the middle of a discussion on the home, she suddenly announces a wish to learn Spanish and visit South America. This visit having been disposed of in half a page, she says on their return - supposedly months later - "We'll go back to where we left off that day I jumped to South America" and the discussion continues.

Of course the discussion is the whole point of this book, and Gilman has substantial and interesting ideas to convey, but also some that I find less attractive. As in the first half of the book, we never hear another woman's voice, although we do get a dialogue with a Southern racist, whose views Ellador dissects with calm logic. Her advocation of socialism, her deploring of the waste of woman's lives and her comments on narrow-minded religion based on a vengeful and pernicious "old boss Father" are all cogent and well-put.

However, Ellador's view of the "Jewish question" is more problematic: she feels that the Jews (at the time of writing) did not have their own nation because "they cannot maintain the state of social organisation rightly called a nation." She dislikes the variety of cultures and societies in New York, and thinks that the US should only admit those "races who have reached the democratic stage." Altogether, she seems to have a "them and us" attitude towards other cultures, and would prefer a homogeneous society where everyone is "well, happy, wise, beautiful, productive and progressive." As with Herland, I was left wondering what would happen to the unwell and the unhappy.

Although the narrator's views are not necessarily the author's, I think we can assume in this case that Ellador is a vehicle for Gilman's own opinions. This is not really a work of fiction - it is a philosphical tract with the slightest of narrative frames, and I think this is its weakness. The supporting story is too insubstantial and sketchy to provide a proper framework for Ellador's views - we barely get to see what she is actually arguing against.

In the final chapter, some semblance of plot returns with Ellador's decision to go back to Herland as she wishes to have a child, and would rather die childless than bring one into the outer world. (So far, she and Van have been celibate, but he loves her none the less for this.) Van returns with her to Herland, where she bears a son.

[Helen_in_the_uk]

I did finish the three books, although I never would have got past the first one unless it was for a group read. I was disappointed that both the second and third books started with a plot and then degenerated into just another vehicle for a lecture.

It did bring up some food for thought, but it's not a book/s that I would read again or recommend to anyone else.

[Wendel]

Thanks Emma, I decided to skip the rest of this book after the first chapter. It is not a good novel and after the other two volumes I believe I know enough of her world view.

My problem with Gilman's thinking is not so much her stand on euthanasia or immigrants. Our experience in these fields is so very different, I think might even have shared these ideas to some degree had I lived a century earlier. And it is not even the latent matriarchy, though that may be because of its latency. No, my real problem is her illiberalism, the idea that in a reasonable world everyone conforms to the Gilman-norm. No dogs!

Still this was an interesting read, no regrets.