Chapter 11 through 21

[Susan]

Adelle wrote: "David wrote: "Chapter 16. The Ship
..."I was surprised that Ishmael seemingly made his decision to ship on the Pequod pretty much on the basis of how the ship looked... surface facts.


Yes, surface facts, and my impression was his decision was also a bit impulsive — he “peered and pryed about the Devil-Dam, from her, hopped over to the Tit-bit, and finally, going on board the Pequod, looked around her for a moment, and then decided that this was the very ship for us.”

What was Yojo thinking? Or, as Ishmael is a Presbyterian, maybe he thinks he and Queequeg were fated to sail with the Pequod one way or the other.

[Susan]

Adelle wrote: But I thought, too, of Coleridge's "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner." A poem of a doomed ship

Yes, Elijah made me think of The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, too. And definitely, Melville could have known the poem since it was first published in 1798. We really know nothing of Elijah —was he a sailor? Had he ever sailed with Captain Ahab? Did he warn anyone besides Queequeg and Ishmael? As readers we don’t seem to know anymore about him than they do.

[Susan]

Bryan wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Bryan, in looking it up, didn't it make you kinda think, "Something bad is going to happen."?

Yes--that's why I thought maybe Melville was laying it on a bit thick with the names. ..."

The name Elijah is a bit thick, but perhaps that’s a broad hint to the reader to take Elijah more seriously than Ishmael does.

[David]

Susan wrote: "Adelle wrote: "David wrote: "Chapter 16. The Ship
..."I was surprised that Ishmael seemingly made his decision to ship on the Pequod pretty much on the basis of how the ship looked... surface facts..."

As a veteran of many private charter fishing trips on the Great Lakes, and a couple at sea, I would have picked the Pequod, too. You can only make a superficial choice when you only have superficial facts to go on.

[Susan]

Tamara wrote: "I think this shows a level of sophistication in Queequeg. He is aware that cultural expectations and behaviors will vary from one culture to the next and that what is laughable in one culture may be perfectly permissible in another.”

Great point. Queequeg after all has experienced two cultures and seems to navigate fine in both of them.

[Susan]

Ignacio wrote: "Melville is long-winded (even his ‘short’ stories are novellas) but I love his slow, philosophical style. The first scene with Queequeg is a delight to read. Something about Melville’s style that i..."

Hear, hear! Thanks, Ignacio, for saying this so well. I’m adding Benito Cerreno to my list of books to revisit. At least, it’s shorter than Moby Dick ;)

[[deleted user]]

At #110 David wrote: "You can only make a superficial choice when you only have superficial facts to go on."

Well, yes... if this were a 3-hour tour aboard The Minnow, I wouldn't have had any qualms. But this is a 3-year tour. I would have thought Ishmael would have asked about a bit, perhaps actually waited to sign until after he had seen the captain, or queried a crew member or two... Perhaps pester harbor hands for a little background on Ahab. So... I say it's on Ishmael. Maybe he was relying on the sometimes reliable Yojo... yet Ishmael himself had said he didn't like that plan... Is is simply taking the easy route? (Trying to decide if this is some sort of indicator of Ishmael's character.)

[Susan]

David wrote: "Chapter 12. Biographical

I like the idea that Ishmael and Queequeg are drawn together by their outsider status. I’m still pondering this bit:

“Queequeg was a native of Kokovoko, an island far away to the West and South. It is not down on any map; true places never are.”

Perhaps, this is an indication of the sorts of places we will be visiting in this novel — far away, not on the map, and true.

[Susan]

Adelle wrote: "At #110 David wrote: "You can only make a superficial choice when you only have superficial facts to go on."

Well, yes... if this were a 3-hour tour aboard The Minnow, I wouldn't have had any qual..."

I agree it does show something about Ishmael’s character, but after all, the other folks on board made the same choice, and I’d guess most had more knowledge of whaling than Ishmael and more knowledge of what makes a good ship to sign up on, and they chose the Pequod as well.

[Jon]

NANTUCKET:
Founded by an eagle kidnapping an Native American baby seems symbolic of America's morally dubious founding.

CHOWDER:
Hosea's namesake was one of the few prophets recognized by Muslims. Hosea marries Gomer who cheats on him symbolizing Israel's idolatry. Later Hosea (translated as "salvation") redeems her which symbolizes God's forgiveness. Hosea is know as "the prophet of doom" but also of restoration.

THE SHIP:
The Pequod is named after an Indian tribe suggesting it represents America. If you add Ismael's 300th lay and Queequeg's 90th lay (because they are sharing) you get 390. This is a number of redemption from Ezekial 4:5 "I've laid upon thee the years of their iniquity 390 days."

THE PROPHET:
The prophet Elijah warned king Ahab that there would be a severe drought because of Ahab's idolatry.

[Rafael]

Jon wrote: "The Pequod is named after an Indian tribe suggesting it represents America. If you add Ismael's 300th lay and Queequeg's 90th lay (because they are sharing) you get 390. This is a number of redemption from Ezekial 4:5 "I've laid upon thee the years of their iniquity 390 days.""

I don't know if I understood you well, but 1/300 plus 1/90 is not equal 1/390. The sum is aproximately 1/69.

[[deleted user]]

Math... mmmm.

Wouldn't it be

1/300 + 1/90 = 9/2700 + 30/2700

= 39/2700 = 13/900 ??? Just a tad more than 1/90.

Granted I don't do much adding of fractions these days, so if I'm mistaken, please correct.

[Xan]

Never in my wild dreams did I expect MD to turn into a math puzzle. :-)

[[deleted user]]

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Never in my wild dreams did I expect MD to turn into a math puzzle. :-)"

Ha ha!

[Rafael]

Adelle wrote: "Math... mmmm.

Wouldn't it be

1/300 + 1/90 = 9/2700 + 30/2700

= 39/2700 = 13/900 ??? Just a tad more than 1/90.

Granted I don't do much adding of fractions these days, so if I'm mistaken, pleas..."

It is the same. I just turn the fraction in a fraction of 1. If you divide 900 by 13 the result is 69.2. This is the same idea that you used to turn 39/2700 into 13/900.

[Rafael]

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Never in my wild dreams did I expect MD to turn into a math puzzle. :-)"

Haha.

Mea culpa.

[Jon]

Rafael wrote: "Jon wrote: "The Pequod is named after an Indian tribe suggesting it represents America. If you add Ismael's 300th lay and Queequeg's 90th lay (because they are sharing) you get 390. This is a numbe..."

Rafael wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Math... mmmm.

Wouldn't it be

1/300 + 1/90 = 9/2700 + 30/2700

= 39/2700 = 13/900 ??? Just a tad more than 1/90.

Granted I don't do much adding of fractions these days, so if I'm ..."

Most of this book shouldn't be taken too literally. ;)

[[deleted user]]

Most of it, :-) not literal. But math... Such an A=A field, yes? I suppose it's a chapter 60 issue for me.

[Rafael]

Adelle wrote: "Most of it, :-) not literal. But math... Such an A=A field, yes? I suppose it's a chapter 60 issue for me."

Indeed. math is math. Unless that Melville was not considering it in that way. But if you deal with fractions that is the way that you should handle it.

[David]

1/300 + 1/90 (0.33% for Ishmael + 1.11% for Queequeg)

Multiply each side by 1 so the denominators are the same
(1/300 x 3/3) + (1/90 x 10/10)
3/900 + 10/900

Then you can add the numerators to get 13/900 or 1.44% combined. this fraction cannot be reduced due to 13 being a prime number.

But...if we divide by1, (13/13) we get 1/69.2 or a little over the 69th lay, which seems weird and counter intuitive.

Edit to add: If you remember that Peleg and Bildad worked these numbers as easy as breathing, you get an idea of how much they were quite the pious little stockbrokers.

[Rafael]

David wrote: "1/300 + 1/90 (0.33% for Ishmael + 1.11% for Queequeg)

Multiply each side by 1 so the denominators are the same
(1/300 x 3/3) + (1/90 x 10/10)
3/900 + 10/900

Then you can add the numerators to get..."

When you deal with sales you get math very quickly, like them.

[[deleted user]]

Lol, it's that counterintuitive bit! How could 1/300th raise the share that much? Is it because I'm thinking of it all from one person rather than thinking of it being divided between two people?

[David]

Adelle wrote: "Lol, it's that counterintuitive bit! How could 1/300th raise the share that much? Is it because I'm thinking of it all from one person rather than thinking of it being divided between two people?"

1/69.2 or the 69.2 lay 1.4% is what Ishmael and Queequeg would get combined. If they split that total evenly it it would be (1/69.2) x (1/2) which would equal 1/138.4 or 138.4 lay each (0.7%)

In dollars:

In 1851, the whale ship Benjamin Tucker came home to New Bedford with 73,707 gallons of whale-oil, 5,348 gallons of sperm oil (that’s the expensive stuff), and 30,012 pounds of baleen. After the voyage expenses were paid, there was $45,320 leftover. The ship owners got between 60-70% of the net profit, leaving somewhere between $13,596 and $18,128 to split among the captain and crew, according to their shares (lays.)

A couple years earlier (1836), another ship returning from a very successful voyage split its leftover profit among captain and crew members this way: Captain $5,882 – First mate $4,545 – Harpooneers $1,333 – Blacksmith $714 – Seamen $800-$571.
https://gazette665.com/2017/04/26/wha...

If the Pequod split the same $18,000 net profit of the Benjamin Tucker, above, then Ishmael's 300th lay would make him $60 and Queequeg's 90th lay would get him. $200. $260 combined, or $180 split evenly. As a total income for 3 years spent doing such hazardous work, whaling seems more like a lifestyle than a way to make a living. Maybe that is another reason why Bulkington turned right around and shipped immediately with another whaler?

[Jon]

Melville did not intend Moby Dick to be a math problem! The lay is not meant literally but a play on "laid" in Ezekiel 4:5. The numbers 300 and 90 were not picked at random. The "777" first mentioned for Ishmael should be a clue that they are Biblically significant numbers considering the Biblical significance of seven. I only brought it up because considering the Biblical names used and that the first few epigraphs in Extracts are scriptural that this is clearly a Biblically influenced work. I am only trying to understand the work from Melville's point of view without imposing any agenda of my own to the best of my ability. If I see something that might help interpret this work, I only post it in hopes that it'll help. But I don't claim to know what Moby-Dick or what any of this means so please take it with a grain of salt.

In that spirit, 390 is also the number of years Israel's 10 tribes rebelled and separated from Judah and Jerusalem before they were led to captivity.

[[deleted user]]

Thank you, Jon, for that reminder. The book, I believe, legitimately speaks to readers through different prisms...and that the Biblical perspective is immensely, immensely important. Yes...I wrestled with the math... but in the end I enjoyed even that... It WAS good to see where I made mistakes... And as David (I think) pointed out, to realize with what ease Bildad---and Rafael---did the math. I thought, too, about how dependent many of us have become on calculators and computers. What a different world.

[David]

Jon wrote: "Melville did not intend Moby Dick to be a math problem! The lay is not meant literally but a play on "laid" in Ezekiel 4:5. The numbers 300 and 90 were not picked at random. The "777" first mention..."

Jon, thanks for pointing that out. Math I know, numerology from the bible is a bit out of my wheelhouse so your post helps fill out all the possible interpretations/meanings, some more probable than others; most likely the biblical ones like you are pointing out. Someone pointed out the $30 Queequeg gave to Ishmael. I am familiar with that one, but it didn't click until someone mentioned it. By the way, "thirty" shows up quite a bit if you search the full text. Thirty: dollars, years, summers, ships, barrels of oil, etc.

[David]

David wrote: "Ishmael's 300th lay would make him $60 and Queequeg's 90th lay would get him. $200. $260 combined, or $180 split evenly."

To be fair, according to the site referenced below, $260 in 1851 is equivalent in purchasing power to $8,509.29 in 2018.
https://www.officialdata.org/1851-dol...

[Xan]

David wrote: "To be fair, according to the site referenced below, $260 in 1851 is equivalent in purchasing power to $8,509.29 in 2018..."

A paltry sum for that many years at sea.

[Kerstin]

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "David wrote: "To be fair, according to the site referenced below, $260 in 1851 is equivalent in purchasing power to $8,509.29 in 2018..."

A paltry sum for that many years at sea."

Yes. And it is a bit free floating. What was the median income back then? How much were the living expenses for the average household? Or in comparison, how much did a carpenter make per year, or grocer, or farmer, or blacksmith?

[Jon]

David wrote: "Jon wrote: "Melville did not intend Moby Dick to be a math problem! The lay is not meant literally but a play on "laid" in Ezekiel 4:5. The numbers 300 and 90 were not picked at random. The "777" f..."

It was reading that post about Q's $30, that made me wonder if the 300 and 90 had any biblical significance. Not sure why I added them but the 390 in Ezek 4:5 and the 30 in Matt 26:15 both refer to redemption and the fact that 30 recurs so often (thanks for pointing that out) means it's not a coincidence.

[Jon]

Adelle wrote: "Thank you, Jon, for that reminder. The book, I believe, legitimately speaks to readers through different prisms...and that the Biblical perspective is immensely, immensely important. Yes...I wrestl..."

Yes, I enjoy reading everyone else's take on this. I think there are many levels to this novel (political, socioeconomic, philosophical, etc.) but I've read this before and on this read I'm trying to concentrate on the biblical references.