Etymology through Chapter 10

[[deleted user]]

David! Etc. I found this regarding carpetbags!

Melville in a letter to Hawthorne:

For all men who say yes, lie; and all men who say no--why, they are in the happy condition of judicious un-incumbered travelers in Europe; they cross the frontiers into Eternity with nothing but a carpet-bag-- that is to say, the Ego.

[David]

Adelle wrote: "David! Etc. I found this regarding carpetbags! . . they cross the frontiers into Eternity with nothing but a carpet-bag-- that is to say, the Ego. "

Adelle! Great find!

He says he only has a couple of shirts in his carpet bag. It seems to be all that he owns. Does a carpetbag with very little contents signify a diminished ego, as in this is all I have, or a bigger ego, as in this is all I need?

[Kerstin]

I am wondering about the title "Father" with Father Mapple. He obviously isn't Catholic. So why the title? Wouldn't one rather expect Pastor or Reverent? What am I missing?

On a lighter note, reading the sermon go on and on I was wondering if I should break out my knitting!

[Kerstin]

Adelle wrote: "Ishmael no longer "sounds" suicidal. Does he love the danger and action of the sea simply for itself? Or does he on some deeper level hope for "death by whale"... which will absolve him of the mortal sin of taking his own life directly? At #6 David wrote: "Chapter 7 The Chapel." "And Ishmael tries to cheer himself by believing that should his body perish, his soul is indestructible."

Or it may be that deciding to go on a whaling expedition gives him renewed purpose. Yes, it is dangerous and you don't have many creature comforts, but some people are drawn to such things.

[[deleted user]]

At #109 David wrote: "Adelle wrote: "David! Etc. I found this regarding carpetbags! . . they cross the frontiers into Eternity with nothing but a carpet-bag-- that is to say, the Ego. "

He says he only has a couple of shirts in his carpet bag. It seems to be all that he owns. Does a carpetbag with very little contents signify a diminished ego, as in this is all I have, or a bigger ego, as in this is all I need? "

Great question....hadn't even occurred to me.

I like the psychological aspects of novels. Even pseudo-psychology... wrestling with who the characters are. LOVED the repeated line of the captain on the ship Jonah boarded: "Who's there?......." Oh! how that harmless question mangles Jonah!" I think maybe "Ishmael" is trying to answer that question.

Ego. a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance. (I'm going with this definition as pre-Freud and would likely be along the lines Melville may have meant.)

So...my gut feeling is that Ishmael has a diminished ego---as you point out, he doesn't have much in that carpet-bag. I think he said earlier on that he tries too hard to please other people

That whole scene in which Ishmael tried so see if he could sleep on the bench, maybe using the chair, maybe tying two benches together... It reminded me of the Procrustes bed story in reverse. Ishamel saying, Oh, maybe I could fit here.. maybe I could fit if it were this way... or that way ...Understandable if he's not psychologically whole. And I don't think he is. Hence his self-identification as "Ishmael," the outcast.

But then we look at the close coming together of Ishmael and Queequeg. Finally Ishmael sleeps well... it's as though they are man and wife (ie, one), Qq's arms and legs covering Ishmael, etc.

ID. the part of the mind in which innate instinctive impulses and primary processes are manifest.

I'm kinda thinking along the line that Queequeg (less civilized/more primary... more in touch with his core impulses) represents the ID. Qq helps heal Ishmael... or helps him get in touch with aspects of himself he's closed off.

{I'm not sure what it means...but I think it means something important that when Jonah asks how soon the ship will sail, the captain says, "Soon enough for any honest man that goes as a passenger." Ishmael has made explicit that he never goes as a passenger. }

[[deleted user]]

Kerstin wrote: "I am wondering about the title "Father" with Father Mapple. He obviously isn't Catholic. So why the title? Wouldn't one rather expect Pastor or Reverent? What am I missing? "

Hadn't thought about that either. Might Melville be using him on several levels? Foreshadowing whales. Focusing on "What is right?" Bringing in the theme of re-birth----Jonah being in the whale for 3 days... the symbolism. Anger (from the 4 "yarns" in the Bible). Making us wonder what Ishmael might be running away from? With the use of "Father" maybe???? Ishmael has parental issues???

Melville's own father died when Melville was about 12. Has he spent his life wondering what his father would have wanted of him? Is he angry at his father for dying young and abandoning him? We know so very little of Ishmael's backstory.

He might have been a schoolteacher. He might have had a step-mother. Or maybe he pretended it was his step-mother treating him harshly so that his mother could remain the nice, loving mother. (I don't quite trust Ishmael's account as totally factual.)

[Catherine]

Kerstin wrote: "I am wondering about the title "Father" with Father Mapple. He obviously isn't Catholic. So why the title? Wouldn't one rather expect Pastor or Reverent? What am I missing?

On a lighter note, rea..."

He could have been Episcopal/Church of England. They are also called "Father" and are considered Priests, not The Reverend. It may also just have been a title of convenience, used for anyone who preached or led a congregation.

[Ashley]

Adelle, thanks for noticing the silver pieces. Would’ve totally missed it without you.

[Ashley]

Personally, I took the whole carpet bag thing as though “we all have our own baggage.” He only has a few shirts in there. Hasn’t experienced much yet.

[Ashley]

Adelle wrote: "Ishmael has made explicit that he never goes as a passenger."

That's right, he does! Maybe it is an issue of personally agency. Ishmael is not merely being carried along on this journey of life, he is actively pursuing an adventure of his own creation."

[Ashley]

David wrote: "1. Is God listening to Melville's Ishmael?"

I've been thinking about this and I still don't know about Ishmael and God. His outlook just seems so universal and broad-reaching, spanning cultures etc. To me, it has a little of a transcendentalist Oversoul feel to it.

[Ashley]

If "Call me Ishmael" implies the name in a pseudonym, then it is a name he has chosen for himself upon completing the journey which he is now relating to us.

Ishmael? Is a biblical fellow who fulfilled the covenant with Abraham, and of Ishmael was to come a great nation.

So... communicating something to those-to-come is very important here. Am I on the right track?

[[deleted user]]

Ashley wrote: "Adelle, thanks for noticing the silver pieces. Would’ve totally missed it without you."

You're totally welcome...but note: I never noticed it when I read the book years ago.

[[deleted user]]

Ashley wrote: "Personally, I took the whole carpet bag thing as though “we all have our own baggage.” He only has a few shirts in there. Hasn’t experienced much yet."

I love that.

[[deleted user]]

Ashley wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Ishmael has made explicit that he never goes as a passenger."

That's right, he does! Maybe it is an issue of personally agency. Ishmael is not merely being carried along on this jou..."

That's a very intriguing theory. Yes!

If I might? Because he's left his unsatisfying land life before. He may not know what he's looking for exactly, but he knows he has to look. Maybe??? maybe if he had accepted being "the good Christian" he was "born and bred" he would have simply accepted the doctrines and life he was presented with. But it wasn't what he needed. So he's voyaging out, searching for answers.

[David]

Ashley wrote: "Personally, I took the whole carpet bag thing as though “we all have our own baggage.” He only has a few shirts in there. Hasn’t experienced much yet."

I like that. Another chapter title with a double meaning.

baggage
1. personal belongings packed in suitcases for traveling; luggage.
synonyms: luggage, suitcases, cases, bags

2. past experiences or long-held ideas regarded as burdens and impediments.
"the emotional baggage I'm hauling around"

[Kesef]

Chris wrote:
"Those who travel do seem to more tolerant of other peoples/cultures; but not necessarily to the point of feeling you must worship as they do. So was perplexed at his feeling that he must perform the rites before Q's small idol "

Pagan religions were not jealous about worshipping only their gods; it was considered normal for a guest to worship his host's gods as a matter of courtesy. Perhaps Ishmael, by his friendship with Queequeg, had picked up this aspect of his attitude to worship.

[Tamara]

Kesef wrote: "Pagan religions were not jealous about worshipping only their gods; ..."

That's very true. In fact, they frequently sought similarities and recognized that the gods were the same even though the names were interchangeable. I think it was in Plutarch's Moralia that we get something along the lines of "the god the ancient Egyptians called Seth, we call Typhon."

[John]

Chris wrote: "Those who travel do seem to more tolerant of other peoples/cultures; but not necessarily to the point of feeling you must worship as they do. So was perplexed at his feeling that he must perform the rites before Q's small idol."

I was also puzzled. This would certainly be a minority opinion of his day, as well as among orthodox believers today.

[[deleted user]]

Bryan wrote: "I never got the impression that Ishmael was suicidal, at least not in a serious way. I read that like someone might say, half-joking, 'if I don't get away from here for a while, I'll kill myself!' ..."

Well, Bryan, I no longer see any indications that Ishmael is suicidal or even particularly depressed.

[John]

"Finally, I always go to sea as a sailor, because of the wholesome exercise and pure air of the fore-castle deck. For as in this world, head winds are far more prevalent than winds from astern (that is, if you never violate the Pythagorean maxim), so for the most part the Commodore on the quarter-deck gets his atmosphere at second hand from the sailors on the forecastle. He thinks he breathes it first; but not so. In much the same way do the commonalty lead their leaders in many other things, at the same time that the leaders little suspect it."

I thought this amusing in general - the idea that the quarterdeck gets its air second-hand, already breathed by the crew, and this as an example of how "the commonality lead their leaders," but my question is what the heck does he mean about violating the Pythagorean maxim?

[David]

John wrote: ""Finally, I always go to sea as a sailor, because of the wholesome exercise and pure air of the fore-castle deck. For as in this world, head winds are far more prevalent than winds from astern (tha..."

It is my understanding that the real Pythagoras had a rather severe "bean" phobia. This is because he believed that humans and beans were spawned from the same source, and to eat a bean would therefore be akin to eating human flesh.

But then he qualifies his sobering truism by saying, “That is, if you never violate the Pythagorean maxim.” Subtle joke, easy to miss, for you’re probably thinking Pythagoras, who’s that? Oh, yeah, a-squared plus b-squared equals c-squared. But that’s not the Pythagorean maxim he’s talking about. What you need to know (and sadly this isn’t explained in most editions) is that there is a two-word fragment of Pythagoras’ writings that simply says: Avoid beans. This is the maxim Ishmael’s referring to, with all its wind-from-astern implications, thereby creating what might be the highest-brow fart joke ever told.
http://www.powermobydick.com/Moby152....

[Bryan--The Bee’s Knees]

David wrote: "John wrote: ""Finally, I always go to sea as a sailor, because of the wholesome exercise and pure air of the fore-castle deck. For as in this world, head winds are far more prevalent than winds fro..."

Well, that is fantastic, David. Not only did I get a belly laugh from that, but I'm going to start using that phrase immediately. I knew there was a reason I started hanging around here. If I'd known stuff like this was in Moby Dick, I'd have read it a long time ago.

[Chris]

David wrote: This is the maxim Ishmael’s referring to, with all its wind-from-astern implications, thereby creating what might be the highest-brow fart joke ever told.

I'll say it is!!! There is a lot more humor in this book than I would have ever thought in a novel with so much doom and gloom.

[John]

David wrote: "What you need to know (and sadly this isn’t explained in most editions) is that there is a two-word fragment of Pythagoras’ writings that simply says: Avoid beans. This is the maxim Ishmael’s referring to, with all its wind-from-astern implications, thereby creating what might be the highest-brow fart joke ever told. "

Fascinating. This sent me off for verification - one of those that's too funny to be true. True enough, Pythagoras is associated with the injunction, though what it means and why is an endless debate covering the gamut from reincarnation, the identification of the soul with the material of beans, the idea of gastric distress as counter to Pythagoreans search for spiritual quietude, an injunction against involvement in politics (black and white beans having been used for voting in the Greek poli) and what appears most recent is a determination that fava beans (common in the Greek region) cause favism, a potentially deadly ailment suffered by up to 30% of the population in Magna Graecia. Of course, fava beans, together with Q's cannibalism, brings one irresistibly to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIahX...

[Jon]

David wrote: "Etymology & Extracts
So here are the famous opening lines of Moby-Dick:
The pale Usher - threadbare in coat, heart, body, and brain; I see him now.
Ok maybe this famous opening line is not as fam..."

ETYMOLOGY:
The H is emphasized and the first translation is supposedly the Hebrew word for ‘whale’ but is actually the word for grace which contains the hebrew letter “hei” which in Kaballah numerology means “grace.”

EXTRACTS:
Many viewpoints of the whale from the sacred to the secular implying that whatever the whale symbolizes is in the eye of the beholder. New Testament quotes seem conspicuously absent.

[Susan]

David wrote: "Etymology & Extracts
So here are the famous opening lines of Moby-Dick:
The pale Usher - threadbare in coat, heart, body, and brain; I see him now.
Ok maybe this famous opening line is not as fam..."

I’m just getting started but hope to catch up before too long. My thought about the Etymology and Extracts is that the extracts show different glimpses/perceptions of whales, and that one theme so far is appearances — the difference between Queequeg’s appearance and who he really is, for example. Having gone whale watching, I was surprised to see how invisible whales can be. Even when they surface to breath, you are only seeing a small part of the head and back of the whale which only hints at their size.

[Susan]

David wrote: "Chapter 2. The Carpet-Bag
Ishmael, with a couple of shirts in his carpet-bag he finds himself stuck in New Bedford, the largest center for whaling, for a few days having missed the boat to Nantucke..."

In addition to what’s been said, the carpet bag also highlights Ishmael’s status as a non-seaman. Queequeg has “a large seaman’s bag, containing the harponeer’s wardrobe, no doubt in lieu of a land trunk.”

[Susan]

I’m really enjoying reading the comments here. In my reading, I’ve been making a list of what I know or deduce about our narrator:
—bright,
—well educated (whether in school or through his own reading and thinking),
—open to new experiences
—restless
—a former school teacher
—broke
—has come down in world socially
—perceptive and observant
—more philosophical than practical. Who decides to travel to Nantucket to find a ship when they have no money and are already in a busy seaport?

[Xan]

Susan wrote: "I’m really enjoying reading the comments here. In my reading, I’ve been making a list of what I know or deduce about our narrator:
—bright,
—well educated (whether in school or through his own rea..."

Good idea.

[[deleted user]]

at #135 Susan wrote: "David wrote: "Etymology & Extracts ...Having gone whale watching, I was surprised to see how invisible whales can be. Even when they surface to breath, you are only seeing a small part of the head and back of the whale which only hints at their size.
..."


I think this is important. Rather symbolic of the book itself thus far. How much we DON'T see. Making judgements on the little surface shown us. Ishmael. The painting at The Spouter Inn. Etc.

[Kerstin]

Susan wrote: "Having gone whale watching, I was surprised to see how invisible whales can be. Even when they surface to breath, you are only seeing a small part of the head and back of the whale which only hints at their size. "

Oh this is a great insight! This adds another layer later in chapter 35.

[Sue]

Yes, having gone whale watching a couple times, I agree with Susan. The search can be frustrating at times. Once we saw two males chasing a female (humpbacks), just the tops of their bodies/heads visible as they raced through the water at such velocity ....their grim eyes and wrinkly heads/bodies are such a sight to behold...it is difficult to think about battling these beasts but they are such a glory and joy to behold.

[Jon]

Catherine wrote: "It was this attention to detail that has gotten me hooked on Moby Dick. there's a lot in the detail and some of it is humorous. I wasn't expecting to find humour in this book, given all the negativ..."

In Ch.1, when he says headwinds are generally more prevalent than from the aft if you adhere to the Pythagorean maxim (bean-less diet) is a fart joke.

[Jon]

David wrote: "I am still wrestling with this quote from Chapter 1:
And still deeper the meaning of that story of Narcissus, who because he could not grasp the tormenting, mild image he saw in the fountain, plu..."

In Ch.1, he also says, "meditation and water are forever wedded," suggesting this is a transcendental voyage. So I think this is a warning against ego (Narcissism) and the phantom is more likely a guiding Spirit.

[Jon]

Adelle wrote: "Adelle wrote: "At #35 Tamara wrote: "although he experiences a death of sorts, he is also reborn, as Xan suggests. In order to experience rebirth, a part of one has to die...."

The dying and rebir..."

I wish I could just hit a "Like" button to show that I agree besides having to Reply but I agree that Ismael is the grammarian and sub-sub.

[Jon]

Adelle wrote: "At #7 David wrote: "Chapter 10. A Bosom Friend
As well as a modifier meaning close, very dear, or intimate, bosom is also appropriately a name for a ship's hold.

What do we think of Ishmael's logi..."

Thirty pieces of silver is also the amount to redeem a slave (Ex 21:32; Zech 11:12) so it may also reference Christ's redemption.

[Jon]

Adelle wrote: "Bryan wrote: "I never got the impression that Ishmael was suicidal, at least not in a serious way. I read that like someone might say, half-joking, 'if I don't get away from here for a while, I'll ..."

Ishmael clearly states in Ch. 1 that he goes sailing to stave off the "hypos" (depression) and the "cap and ball" (suicide by pistol).

[Jon]

Final thoughts on Ch.1 -10: To me, "Call me Ishmael" implies a conversion if you think of his being linked with Queequeg as if married as a literary devise to link the two as symbolically representing the same thing. Ishmael literally means "God hears" in Hebrew. He is considered the father of all (non-Jewish) Arabs.

Jonah was sent by God to convert the heathen Ninevites who worshipped Dogon (a fish god). When he emerged from the whale and converted them, he regretted bringing his enemies' salvation and slept under a gourd's shade. When it dried, God said as you have pity for the gourd, I have pity for Nineveh.