Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Moby-Dick - Reread
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Etymology through Chapter 10
David wrote: "Chapter 2. The Carpet-BagIshmael, with a couple of shirts in his carpet-bag he finds himself stuck in New Bedford, the largest center for whaling, for a few days having missed the boat to Nantucke..."
Ishmael's preference for the original maybe reflects how he thought it's dumb to regard the savage culture as inferior or dangerous when the western civilisation probably started off with a similar culture with idolatry and cannibalism. It might also just be a form of snobbish preference for the 'original', like people regarding the English tea superior to American, etc. Also, it might reflect something rugged and natural in Nantucket that Ishmael admires and prefers to the more commercialized New Bedford.
I had to look up both carpet bag and counterpane (what a strange word for a quilted bedcover!)Wikipedia tells me that:
The carpetbaggers of the Reconstruction Era following the American Civil War—Northerners who moved to the South for economic or political opportunity—were given their name from this type of luggage which they carried.
Is a carpet bag a sign of Ishmael's pursuit of opportunity?
I was a bit puzzled by the significance of Ishmael's dream. Why was his stepmother so cold and unforgiving? Is that why he was more attracted to/unfamiliar with Queequeg's more tender yet gruff attitude? Is his dream somewhat connected to Jonah's 'hideous sleep' in the ship? Is his feeling of being trapped under the patchwork of Queequeg's tattooed arm and the bedding some kind of premonition like that Jonah felt in the closed, stiffling air of Jonah's cell?
Dave wrote: "Thanks for the chapter summaries, David. I'm setting off on the good ship Moby-Dick for the first time. That opening paragraph really is something special.Like Xan, I especially enjoyed chapter 3..."
I loved the details like where the glasses had rims to show how much to get for how much you pay and had these sly trickery built in to swindle them.
My dad worked in a cheap wagoned street food truck where they sold liquor in dented tin kettles when he was young. I thought the kettles were dented (almost corrugated) because they were cheap and kicked around by the drunkards so much, but he told me that they were done like that by the bar owners themselves to reduce the amount of liquor in the container.
I also loved how he described how Ishmael tried to lie down in a makeshift bench-bed. I sometimes do that with my couch when my husband comes in too drunk and smelly! :-D Of course, I'm not the one who sleeps in the makeshift bed.
David wrote: "Chapter 2. The Carpet-Bag
Ishmael, with a couple of shirts in his carpet-bag.....What is the significance of the chapter title, The Carpet Bag?..."
Borum posted with information on the carpetbaggers of the Reconstruction Era. I had thought that was a good direction to look in. But then, I looked to find out when Moby Dick was published. 1851. Before the Civil War.
But the Wiki article Borum had referenced also said that carpet bags were generally 1) used by travelers, and 2) made from scraps. Maybe that's useful information.
We know Ishmael has been depressed. I'm wondering this morning whether on some level the whaling voyage is to make him whole? Does the carpet bag maybe??? represent Ishmael trying to take the disparate aspects of his personality and integrate them into a more whole, healthier man?
In "Extracts" the Sub-Sub-Librarian writes, "But gulp down your tears and hie aloft to the royal-mast with your hearts... Here ye strike but splintered hearts together -- there, ye shall strike unsplinterable glasses!"
At the close of chapter 1, "Loomings" Ishmael writes "since it is best well to be on friendly terms with all the inmates of the place one lodges in." From an integration/wholeness perspective, we could think of "the inmates of the place" as various aspects of Ishmael's personality lodging in his body/his mind.
{I may well be off track and may tack in a different direction later in the book. I'm simply taking the opportunity to think "out loud" as it were as I wonder along.)
Like the carpetbag, we see another example of scraps being put together in Chapter 4, "The Counterpane."
"Upon waking next morning about daylight, I found Queequeg's arm thrown over me in the most loving and affectionate manner. You had almost thought I had been his wife. The counterpane [of Queequeg's arm] was of patchwork."
Maybe Ishmael is symbolically embracing or rather being embrace by a wilder, more original, less inhibited part of himself? He speaks of almost being as Queequeg's wife. {"and the two shall be as one flesh" Genesis 2:24}. He states of his night in bed with Queequeg, I "never slept better in my life."
Laying there with Queequeg brings childhood memories of his abusive step-mother to the surface. He remembers undressing himself. {To become psychologically naked?] "I lay there dismally...[hoping] for a resurrection." Is Ishmael still looking for some sort of spiritual/psychological/emotional resurrection?
Ishmael, with a couple of shirts in his carpet-bag.....What is the significance of the chapter title, The Carpet Bag?..."
Borum posted with information on the carpetbaggers of the Reconstruction Era. I had thought that was a good direction to look in. But then, I looked to find out when Moby Dick was published. 1851. Before the Civil War.
But the Wiki article Borum had referenced also said that carpet bags were generally 1) used by travelers, and 2) made from scraps. Maybe that's useful information.
We know Ishmael has been depressed. I'm wondering this morning whether on some level the whaling voyage is to make him whole? Does the carpet bag maybe??? represent Ishmael trying to take the disparate aspects of his personality and integrate them into a more whole, healthier man?
In "Extracts" the Sub-Sub-Librarian writes, "But gulp down your tears and hie aloft to the royal-mast with your hearts... Here ye strike but splintered hearts together -- there, ye shall strike unsplinterable glasses!"
At the close of chapter 1, "Loomings" Ishmael writes "since it is best well to be on friendly terms with all the inmates of the place one lodges in." From an integration/wholeness perspective, we could think of "the inmates of the place" as various aspects of Ishmael's personality lodging in his body/his mind.
{I may well be off track and may tack in a different direction later in the book. I'm simply taking the opportunity to think "out loud" as it were as I wonder along.)
Like the carpetbag, we see another example of scraps being put together in Chapter 4, "The Counterpane."
"Upon waking next morning about daylight, I found Queequeg's arm thrown over me in the most loving and affectionate manner. You had almost thought I had been his wife. The counterpane [of Queequeg's arm] was of patchwork."
Maybe Ishmael is symbolically embracing or rather being embrace by a wilder, more original, less inhibited part of himself? He speaks of almost being as Queequeg's wife. {"and the two shall be as one flesh" Genesis 2:24}. He states of his night in bed with Queequeg, I "never slept better in my life."
Laying there with Queequeg brings childhood memories of his abusive step-mother to the surface. He remembers undressing himself. {To become psychologically naked?] "I lay there dismally...[hoping] for a resurrection." Is Ishmael still looking for some sort of spiritual/psychological/emotional resurrection?
Cphe wrote: "
"My Name is Ishmael!"
An affirmation - a starting point maybe to begin anew.
reply | flag *
,..."
I'm really liking this perspective! To begin anew.
"My Name is Ishmael!"
An affirmation - a starting point maybe to begin anew.
reply | flag *
,..."
I'm really liking this perspective! To begin anew.
At #57 Borum wrote: "I was a bit puzzled by the significance of Ishmael's dream. Why was his stepmother so cold and unforgiving? Is that why he was more attracted to/unfamiliar with Queequeg's more tender yet gruff attitude? Is his dream somewhat connected to Jonah's 'hideous sleep' in the ship? Is his feeling of being trapped under the patchwork of Queequeg's tattooed arm and the bedding some kind of premonition like that Jonah felt in the closed, stiffling air of Jonah's cell?
reply | flag *
..."
I love that you brought up the dream. I hadn't paid much attention to it until I read your post. But in re-reading, I see that it must be of importance.
reply | flag *
..."
I love that you brought up the dream. I hadn't paid much attention to it until I read your post. But in re-reading, I see that it must be of importance.
Ishmael is also the son of Abram and Hagar, his wife Sarah's concubine. He is referred to as a wild donkey of a man, but he was also to be blessed by God who will make of him a great nation. Ishmael and Hagar were thrown into the desert by Sarah and the idea was that they would die there. However, God heard Hagar's cry and rescued them, promising that Ishmael would be the founder of a nation. The name "Ishmael" means "God has heard." So, in one sense, Ishmael is given a new beginning, a rebirth of sorts.I'm still trying to see how this fits into our first few chapters.
Catherine wrote: "The name "Ishmael" means "God has heard."So this makes me think the following thoughts.
1. Is God listening to Melville's Ishmael?
2. Ishmael is narrating the story to us, are we hearing him?
3. Ishmael obviously survives whatever is looming on the horizon to tell the tale, does this make him a new Jonah doing Father Mapple's work, To preach the [unwelcome] Truth in the face of Falsehood, by telling us this story?
3a. If 3 is the case, what would this unwelcome Truth be?
David wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Identity may play a major role in Moby Dick.My Name is Ishmael!"
There seems to be a significant difference between My name is Ishmael and chapter one's opening line:Cal..."
See, I can't even remember a snappy opening line like that even when I read it only a day or two ago. Fact Check, Me! Fact Check, Me! I think Call me Ishmael is more suggestive.
The story of Jonah is, among other things, a story about death and rebirth too.
Hi, all. I'm here and am SO happy to be reading MD. Thanks for joining me on this leviathan of a journey!My first thought after reading Extracts was "Whales are HUGE!"
How big is the whale compared to the boat? And what do they intend to do once they catch a whale?
Looking into this through the wonders of Google revealed some really hideous images, a little too real for me. In the interest of enjoying this work of fiction, I am reeling at the sheer size of the whale, and the mindset of those who choose to battle them.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "The story of Jonah is, among other things, a story about death and rebirth too."But for Father Mapple, Jonah is not so much a story of rebirth, but of how to repent when you sin:
And here, shipmates, is true and faithful repentance; not clamorous for pardon, but grateful for punishment. And how pleasing to God was this conduct in Jonah, is shown in the eventual deliverance of him from the sea and the whale. Shipmates, I do not place Jonah before you to be copied for his sin but I do place him before you as a model for repentance.
Bryan wrote: "I take this to mean that Ishmael is trying to remind us of the ancient attraction to the oceans by mentioning it's sacred associations, and the reason why it is sacred (and thus draws us so powerfully as the preceding paragraphs talk about) is hidden in the deeper meaning of Narcissus--that we see our true selves when we look there; the true self that is, in the end, ungraspable."I loved Melville's description of the magnetic pull water has on mankind. Beautiful. I also loved the universal aspect to Ismael's outlook. For example:
“Who ain’t a slave? Tell me that. Well, then, however the old sea-captains may order me about- however they may thump and punch me about, I have the satisfaction of knowing that it is all right; that everybody else id one way or other served in much the same way… and so the universal thump is passed round, and all hands should rub each other’s shoulder-blades, and be content.” (ch. 1)
Looking forward to universal truths in the pages to come.
Like I said, "among other things." Just like a myth can be a fertility myth, a creation myth, and a hero myth.
David wrote: "Catherine wrote: "The name "Ishmael" means "God has heard."So this makes me think the following thoughts.
1. Is God listening to Melville's Ishmael?..."
Has Ishmael addressed God, David? He honored sailors who died at sea, he listens to a story about a sailor in the bible, and later he goes through some motions to honor Queequeg's religion. But what is Ishmael trying to communicate to God?
Adelle wrote: "At the close of chapter 1, "Loomings" Ishmael writes "since it is best well to be on friendly terms with all the inmates of the place one lodges in." From an integration/wholeness perspective, we could think of "the inmates of the place" as various aspects of Ishmael's personality lodging in his body/his mind. ..."When I read that, given that Queequeg was originally from such a far-away locale, I kind of interpreted it not only as 'it's good to be on friendly terms with the people who stay in the same hotel as you', but rather as 'it's good to be on friendly terms with the inhabitants of the Earth, as we all lodge here', especially as Ishmael has such a forward thinking philosophy, which comes, I think, from his having been to see quite a bit of the Earth already--just not as a whaler.
At #67 David wrote: ".But for Father Mapple, Jonah is not so much a story of rebirth, but of how to repent when you sin:
And here, shipmates, is true and faithful repentance; not clamorous for pardon, but grateful for punishment. And how pleasing to God was this conduct in Jonah, is shown in the eventual deliverance of him from the sea and the whale. Shipmates, I do not place Jonah before you to be copied for his sin but I do place him before you as a model for repentance. ."
Yes, that was the message of Father Mapple. (EDIT ADDED: I don't read in The Book of Jonah that Jonah was grateful for punishment. To me it only seemed that he was grateful for having been saved. So... maybe we're to doubt authority figures in _Moby Dick_. Maybe they twist things to their own preferred perspective.) [Jonah 2:8 Those who cling to worthless idols... Interesting considering the close following scene with Ishmael and Queequeg and Queequeg's idol.]
ANGER
Jonah was a changed man in that after his time in the whale, he did as God had directed him. But then I read the Book of Jonah. Very short. What struck me there was how angry Jonah was at the end. He told God that he would rather die than live. And God asked him, Is it right to be so angry? Jonah told God he was so angry he wished he were dead. And God again asked him, Is it right to be so angry?
And here, shipmates, is true and faithful repentance; not clamorous for pardon, but grateful for punishment. And how pleasing to God was this conduct in Jonah, is shown in the eventual deliverance of him from the sea and the whale. Shipmates, I do not place Jonah before you to be copied for his sin but I do place him before you as a model for repentance. ."
Yes, that was the message of Father Mapple. (EDIT ADDED: I don't read in The Book of Jonah that Jonah was grateful for punishment. To me it only seemed that he was grateful for having been saved. So... maybe we're to doubt authority figures in _Moby Dick_. Maybe they twist things to their own preferred perspective.) [Jonah 2:8 Those who cling to worthless idols... Interesting considering the close following scene with Ishmael and Queequeg and Queequeg's idol.]
ANGER
Jonah was a changed man in that after his time in the whale, he did as God had directed him. But then I read the Book of Jonah. Very short. What struck me there was how angry Jonah was at the end. He told God that he would rather die than live. And God asked him, Is it right to be so angry? Jonah told God he was so angry he wished he were dead. And God again asked him, Is it right to be so angry?
Catherine wrote: "Ishmael is also the son of Abram and Hagar, his wife Sarah's concubine. He is referred to as a wild donkey of a man, but he was also to be blessed by God who will make of him a great nation. Ishmae..."When I read the name Ishmael, this story of Abram and Hagar is the first thing that pops into my mind. It's always leant flavor to Ishmael's character (the character is famous enough, that even though this will be my first time reading all the way through, I've been 'aware' of him since I read this version:
as a kid.)
I don't know exactly how the name makes me think of him differently--as a kind of outcast in a way; someone who doesn't fit in. I think it is a very loaded name, though what Melville might have wanted me to get out of it, I'm not sure.
At #5 David wrote: "Chapter 6. The Street.
Ishmael describes the streets of New Bedford as more of a cultural melting pot than the big cities full of both experienced whalers from all over the world and young people from urban and rural areas seeking their fortune. Large homes built by the profits of the whaling industry line the streets...."
Melville shows us economic disparity. Those living and renting in The Spouter-Inn district are quite poor. Those backing the voyages have made ---and some, no doubt have lost --- large fortunes.
Economics rule. At The Spouter-Inn. Queequeg "stayed out of a Saturday night clean into the holy Sabbeth, engaged in such a cannibal business as selling heads of dead idolators."
"He pays reg'lar," says the proprietor.
It pays regular, those making the profits from the whaling may well say to themselves, too.
Ishmael describes the streets of New Bedford as more of a cultural melting pot than the big cities full of both experienced whalers from all over the world and young people from urban and rural areas seeking their fortune. Large homes built by the profits of the whaling industry line the streets...."
Melville shows us economic disparity. Those living and renting in The Spouter-Inn district are quite poor. Those backing the voyages have made ---and some, no doubt have lost --- large fortunes.
Economics rule. At The Spouter-Inn. Queequeg "stayed out of a Saturday night clean into the holy Sabbeth, engaged in such a cannibal business as selling heads of dead idolators."
"He pays reg'lar," says the proprietor.
It pays regular, those making the profits from the whaling may well say to themselves, too.
Bryan wrote: " I think it is a very loaded name,..."Like you, I am uncertain what Melville wanted us to get from the name, but certainly if Melville were writing today he would have needed to be as cognizant of both Muslim and Arab origin myths as of those of repentance.
(Repent is sometimes described as "turning around." M-W: "the act or process of repenting; specifically: contrition for one's sins together with the dedication of oneself to the abandonment of unworthy purposes and values and to the amendment of one's life.")
If one takes a look at the definitions of "repent," and then associates "repentance" with our narrator, "Call me Ishmael" can take on a very poignant (self?) judgement. Especially if one assumes that by the time Ishmael narrates his story, he has seen and experienced much.
The Biblical name has come to symbolize orphans, exiles, and social outcasts. . .By contrast with his namesake Ishmael from Genesis, who is banished into the desert, Ishmael is wandering upon the sea. Each Ishmael, however, experiences (view spoiler)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael...
Ashley wrote: Has Ishmael addressed God, David?"Not directly, but his going to sea may be his way of doing that. Curiously though, he is talking to us directly. Maybe this means that we are god. Or maybe he is talking to us to keep us from thinking we are god; mad captains of our own ship, so to speak.
At #4 David wrote: "Breakfast...We are told about the whalemen at breakfast table that:
nearly every man maintained a profound silence. And not only that, but they looked embarrassed.
Why were they so quiet?
I re-read the chapter. I thought it possible---even likely---that Ishmael had expected stories as he had been on other ships... stories had been told... and what, Ishmael might have thought/wondered, could be more exciting than whaling?
But Ishmael had never been on a whaling ship. From "The Chapel" chapter we have been given some sense of the dangers of a whaling life. The marble plaques "in memory of.... What despair in those immovable inscriptions!" "...so many are the unrecorded accidents in the fishery, and so plainly did several women present wear the countenance if not the trappings of some unceasing grief...cause the old wounds to bleed afresh...
I thought the whalers were quiet, not talking about their experiences rather like war vets often won't talk of their experiences. Close friends have been lost. Does it being a Sunday and their intention to attend a last sermon before their voyage out play a part? Maybe.
What I don't get is the embarrassment.
nearly every man maintained a profound silence. And not only that, but they looked embarrassed.
Why were they so quiet?
I re-read the chapter. I thought it possible---even likely---that Ishmael had expected stories as he had been on other ships... stories had been told... and what, Ishmael might have thought/wondered, could be more exciting than whaling?
But Ishmael had never been on a whaling ship. From "The Chapel" chapter we have been given some sense of the dangers of a whaling life. The marble plaques "in memory of.... What despair in those immovable inscriptions!" "...so many are the unrecorded accidents in the fishery, and so plainly did several women present wear the countenance if not the trappings of some unceasing grief...cause the old wounds to bleed afresh...
I thought the whalers were quiet, not talking about their experiences rather like war vets often won't talk of their experiences. Close friends have been lost. Does it being a Sunday and their intention to attend a last sermon before their voyage out play a part? Maybe.
What I don't get is the embarrassment.
At #6 David wrote: "Chapter 6. The Street.
.."
lol. Ismael speaks of "the queerest looking nondescripts from foreign parts."
nondescript:" lacking distinctive or interesting features or characteristics."
.."
lol. Ismael speaks of "the queerest looking nondescripts from foreign parts."
nondescript:" lacking distinctive or interesting features or characteristics."
At #6 David wrote: "Chapter 7 The Chapel." "And Ishmael tries to cheer himself by believing that should his body perish, his soul is indestructible."
For a man who a mere 5 chapters back had a "growing grim about the mouth.... a damp, drizzly November in [his] soul," ... Going to sea as a "substitute for a pistol and ball," Ishmael certainly seems in an upbeat mood here.
I wonder: 1) Has his encounter with Queequeg so changed him? 2) Ishmael no longer "sounds" suicidal. Does he love the danger and action of the sea simply for itself? Or does he on some deeper level hope for "death by whale"... which will absolve him of the mortal sin of taking his own life directly?
For a man who a mere 5 chapters back had a "growing grim about the mouth.... a damp, drizzly November in [his] soul," ... Going to sea as a "substitute for a pistol and ball," Ishmael certainly seems in an upbeat mood here.
I wonder: 1) Has his encounter with Queequeg so changed him? 2) Ishmael no longer "sounds" suicidal. Does he love the danger and action of the sea simply for itself? Or does he on some deeper level hope for "death by whale"... which will absolve him of the mortal sin of taking his own life directly?
I never got the impression that Ishmael was suicidal, at least not in a serious way. I read that like someone might say, half-joking, 'if I don't get away from here for a while, I'll kill myself!' That seems to be a minority opinion, but I took it to mean he was restless and discontent and needed something outside of himself to rejuvenate him, but not so much seriously ready to do himself in.
Bryan wrote: "I never got the impression that Ishmael was suicidal, at least not in a serious way. I read that like someone might say, half-joking, 'if I don't get away from here for a while, I'll kill myself!' ..."It is my experience that many humans, even without the abnormalities of mental disorder, experience deep vacillations in mood within relatively short periods of time -- a bit of the human condition in traversing the realities of everyday life?
Adelle wrote: "What I don't get is the embarrassment."
I interpreted that mostly as lack of social adroitness -- these were men more accustomed to supporting each other on board a vessel, but not adept at schmoozing over a meal among relative strangers. A pub might make them loud-mouthed and braggart or rowdy; here they were chowing down. Many were likely men with considerable humility about their own strengths outside the conditions that called forth their skills.
The embarrassment could be a result of the men simply being out of their element, literally and figuratively.
At #82 Bryan wrote: "I never got the impression that Ishmael was suicidal, at least not in a serious way. I read that like someone might say, half-joking, 'if I don't get away from here for a while, I'll kill myself!' ..."
I can see that as a legitimate perspective, especially as Ishmael seems an altered man almost from the moment he meets Queequeg. What keeps me keeping a possible suicidal Ishmael in mind is that he went on so long about the dreariness, the thinking of his mortality, the reference to Cato....Peter Coffin.
Maybe Ishmael picks up every time he manages to "kill" his land-based career, or "kills" the aspect of himself who settles for that. At this point, to me, it seems a bit incongruous that by "the murky light of that darkened, doleful day" he acknowledges that he might die on this trip, and yet he "somehow grew merry again." Delightful. Saying to himself, big deal if I die, my soul is safe.
To me, if he'd said to himself, Well, I'm going to beat the odds. I'm not going to die on this trip, I would have thought him psychologically healthier. Maybe because Ishmael hasn't struck me as a deeply religious man--- not one who can honest say, "Take my body, it is not me... for stave my soul, Jove himself cannot."
Or...is it of importance that he doesn't say God cannot take his soul. He lightens the whole tone of that statement thru Jove?
He's not tempting God, or using God's name flippantly. He says Jove instead.
I can see that as a legitimate perspective, especially as Ishmael seems an altered man almost from the moment he meets Queequeg. What keeps me keeping a possible suicidal Ishmael in mind is that he went on so long about the dreariness, the thinking of his mortality, the reference to Cato....Peter Coffin.
Maybe Ishmael picks up every time he manages to "kill" his land-based career, or "kills" the aspect of himself who settles for that. At this point, to me, it seems a bit incongruous that by "the murky light of that darkened, doleful day" he acknowledges that he might die on this trip, and yet he "somehow grew merry again." Delightful. Saying to himself, big deal if I die, my soul is safe.
To me, if he'd said to himself, Well, I'm going to beat the odds. I'm not going to die on this trip, I would have thought him psychologically healthier. Maybe because Ishmael hasn't struck me as a deeply religious man--- not one who can honest say, "Take my body, it is not me... for stave my soul, Jove himself cannot."
Or...is it of importance that he doesn't say God cannot take his soul. He lightens the whole tone of that statement thru Jove?
He's not tempting God, or using God's name flippantly. He says Jove instead.
Bryan wrote, " The embarrassment could be a result of the men simply being out of their element, literally and figuratively."
😉 Nicely done!
😉 Nicely done!
Oh, my....what a delight "Moby Dick" has been thus far! I see there are 87 or so comments so will have to go through those in time but just wanted to add my two cents first /fresh. Melville's writing makes me chuckle at times..he paints such a credible and visible (in my mind) picture of being in the town of New Bedford amongst the seafaring folk and such! Lol about the lit tomahawk / pipe and Ishmael's first impression of Q, all very understandable in light of the dark/ circumstances at the time. Very much could relate to his thoughts/ misthoughts! Quite a delight thus far! Now, I shall review other comments and see if I have follow through thoughts or comments of the same.
Okay, quick review of some of the posts, but as to the question posed early on as to the sermon, I do think the point re Jonah was not so much to be grateful for the punishment per se but to find it warranted and appropriate...in other words, to understand the gravity of one's misdeeds and to take the lumps that come with it accordingly , perhaps, as fair and correct. I think that Ishmael feels at his ends and perhaps it is Q's total acceptance of Ishmael (beyond the initial shock of finding a bedfellow at night) and Q's fresh perspective/ distinction from the society from which Ishmael flees that perhaps helps bond Ishmael to Q and to some degree vice versa. Ishmael sees the humanity in Q's eyes despite his "savage" appearance. And as to Q's bonding with Ishmael, he sees that Ishmael accepts him despite his difference, agreeing to be once again a 'bedfellow' and to engage in Q's offerings toward the wooden figure and this may be rather a singular finding for Q in his experience making Q deeply appreciative of the same. I think it is the natural sort of bonding that may occur when two are out of their natural settings / on a new large adventure so to speak and find a kindred spirit in similar circumstances, just as those going off to college oft find their dearest friends in their new setting! Another note, as a water/ocean lover, I deeply appreciate Melville's words regarding people's attraction to the sea/ oceans. Such rollicking good writing thus far (..see how I fare with the whale hunting details!).
Adelle wrote: "I can see that as a legitimate perspective, especially as Ishmael seems an altered man almost from the moment he meets Queequeg..."I wonder if we'll have an easier time with this question after getting to know Ishmael better...in this beginning, I sense gloom, yes, but kind of a jauntiness as well--I've no doubt he's discontented with his landside life, but, like Lily mentioned, as humans we're usually more complex than all one way or another. Even though he doesn't seem satisfied with the direction his life is going at the moment, I get a sense that he's self-aware enough to make these occasionally droll statements about his condition. Of course, that doesn't rule out a genuine impulse toward self-destruction either.
Good comments though--probably a lot of things I wouldn't have looked at critically if people hadn't brought them up.
Have now read all the other comments thus far and have just this to add: I think that the whalers were all quiet at that one point as , somewhat what was said above, the hardships faced / shared losses and experiences were too large to take in, let alone to discuss. Also perhaps as they realize that this humongous prey they chase is a true being of worth of which they have come to both fear and largely respect and that they seek to and have killed such a being, might unsettle their minds and thus be a topic unspeakable as they try to process it .
The parts where Melville describes the bedsharing are very interesting. If they were written today the homoerotic tone would be pretty clear. How it was received when the book was written?In chapter 7 when someone (I guess that was Ishmael) spoke about Adam this person states that that time was 60 centuries ago, Moby Dick was oublished in 1851 and The Origin of Species was published in 1859, When i read this part I had a moment of confusion until I remember that. In that time people believed in the Usher's calculation for the Earth age.
David wrote: "Etymology & ExtractsSo here are the famous opening lines of Moby-Dick:
The pale Usher - threadbare in coat, heart, body, and brain; I see him now.
Ok maybe this famous opening line is not as fam..."
Have been out of town on a project that I could not get a chance to participate until now. So starting at the beginning...
Perhaps the consumptive usher & the sub-sub librarian are set up as people that have failed in their trades/profession and foreshadow the failure that is to come?
I found these first two sections interesting for the breadth of description and focus on how important whales were. One definitely knows this story is going to be about a whale! Certainly in the chaps ahead there is much more that points the reader that this is one fantastic whale to come.
David wrote: "Chapter 1. Loomings.Ishmael, in a state of spiritual despair, weaves (or looms) the threads of fate and free will that that begin to bring into focus a great and impending apprehension.
Ishmael's..."
I really felt this chapter set the tone for the story to come . The despair so beautifully described as the "damp, drizzly November in my soul." Loved that.
Then his decision to go on a whaler. The close of that chapter says for Ishmael that the "great flood-gates of the wonder-world swung open, & in the wild conceits that swayed me to my purpose, two and two there floated into my inmost soul, endless procession of the whale" The last part of the sentence once again for me was foreboding and a little prescient . "mid most of them all, one grand hooded phantom, like a snow hill (white??!) in the air."
David asked: What is the significance of the chapter title, The Carpet Bag?Sailors keep their entire belongings in their duffle bags for the journey, here carpet bag. I see there has been discussion about rebirth, perhaps he looks upon this escape from despair to the sea on a whaler not only as a new adventure but a new life. Therefor it may symbolize the beginning of this new life??
Overall, I am pleasantly surprised at how much I have enjoyed this thus far! As far as Ishmael's connection with Queequeg, I found the fairly quick feeling of "bosom friend " surprising. But his description: "you cannot hide the soul...I saw the traces of a simple honest heart.... There was a certain lofty bearing.... He looked like a man who had never cringed and never had a creditor." I certainly would want to befriend someone with those characteristics or qualities.
When stuck with strangers as a new crew often is, you have to learn of get along and its best if you can bond with one another. Those who travel do seem to more tolerant of other peoples/cultures; but not necessarily to the point of feeling you must worship as they do. So was perplexed at his feeling that he must perform the rites before Q's small idol
Rafael wrote: "The parts where Melville describes the bedsharing are very interesting. If they were written today the homoerotic tone would be pretty clear. How it was received when the book was written?In chap..."
Rafael -- I read your comment (and Adelle's, as well as had my own reactions, especially having recently read John Boyne's The Heart's Invisible Furies ) just before I listened a second time to Chapter 4. (I am much enjoying the Big Read link David gave us in the Resources thread, as well as having an Audible version.) As I listened, I was struck by how much a passage reminded me of ones about child abuse I have read. I went looking for Melville's biography, but at the Wiki level of research, I found no clues. The passage follows, in spoiler format. It now reads to me as possibly a fairly Victorian-era way of dealing with a topic not addressed "out loud."
(view spoiler)
At #97 Kevin wrote: "I’m not sure Ishmael has so much lost sight of God as he knows God, rather than taking a look at and contrasting his own society’s traditional conception of God with other perspectives. ( Was there a religious movement then. ?)..."
There was. The Second Great Awakening.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great...
There was. The Second Great Awakening.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great...
Kevin wrote: "I think Ishmael may be more attracted to the idea of Queequeg, and what Queequeg represents for him in terms of spiritual understanding. And my reading is that Queequeg’s spiritual understanding is not uniform - so is that what Ishmael is then searching for, or at least finding so far - something that is not uniform?"I really like this interpretation, Kevin. Thanks for sharing. I'll be keeping this in mind as I read.
At #7 David wrote: "Chapter 10. A Bosom Friend
As well as a modifier meaning close, very dear, or intimate, bosom is also appropriately a name for a ship's hold.
What do we think of Ishmael's logical conclusion that participating in Quequeg's evening ritual was his duty? Do you think this duty Ishmael feels is the same Christian duty that Father Mapple tells his shipmates that he is burdened with?
Ishmael refers to their acquaintance as bosom friends.
.."
Items that were of import for me in Chapter 10: A Bosom Friend:
(1) The very last sentence of chapter 9 has Father Mapple, kneeling, "left alone,"presumably with his God. And the first sentence of chapter 10 has Queequeg "quite alone" sitting with his statue/god. Queequeg left the sermon early. Perhaps moved to return to spend time with his own god.
(2) "You cannot hide the soul." Moby Dick, I believe, does does deal with men's souls.
(3) Ishmael would seem to have had a very bad experience with someone ... from his church? a Christian who treated him un-Christianly? "I'll try a pagan friend, thought I, since Christian kindness has proved but hollow courtesy." This following his earlier, "...better to sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunk Christian."
(4) bosom. QQ claps Ishmael tightly and says they were now married, "meaning, in his country's phrase, that we were bosom friends; he would gladly die for me, if need should be."
I can't find in myself to feel that Ishmael would do the same at this point for QQ. I tried. I think what was missing was there was no thought on Ishmael's part, "and I would do the same for him."
(5) the thirty pieces of silver. Symbolically money of betrayal. What could possibly come to mind other than Judas taking the 30 pieces of silver and betraying Jesus. Queequeg puts half of them in Ishmael's pocket. "I let them stay." Is Ishmael going to halfways betray QQ or someone else later in the book? Is he betraying his God in worshiping the idol with Queequeg?
Since Ishmael calls himself "a good Christian; born and bred in the bosom of the infallible [sarcasm?] Presbyterian Church" is he betraying his God in worshiping the idol with Queequeg?
Interesting paragraph. Sophistic reasoning. He asks "What is worship?" "To do the will of God." And what does God will? To do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And what would Ishmael want done to himself?
"Why, unite with me in my particular Presbyterian form of worship."
IS Ishmael wanting true reconciliation with his Presbyterian roots? OR, does he only want his own PARTICULAR form of worship...i.e., is his own claim to that religion hollow... mere courtesy?
{EDIT added} I think we have to remember about Ishmael... he's not exactly straightforward. He's introduced himself to us under an assumed name. "Call me Ishmael." "I am quick to perceive a horror, and could still be social with it..." "...I was thus closely scanning him, half-pretending ... to be looking out at the storm..."
Remember the admonition of Father Mapple? "To preach the Truth to the face of Falsehood." Does Ishmael BELIEVE in Queequeeg's "piece of wood." Ishmael's words. Mere form.
As well as a modifier meaning close, very dear, or intimate, bosom is also appropriately a name for a ship's hold.
What do we think of Ishmael's logical conclusion that participating in Quequeg's evening ritual was his duty? Do you think this duty Ishmael feels is the same Christian duty that Father Mapple tells his shipmates that he is burdened with?
Ishmael refers to their acquaintance as bosom friends.
.."
Items that were of import for me in Chapter 10: A Bosom Friend:
(1) The very last sentence of chapter 9 has Father Mapple, kneeling, "left alone,"presumably with his God. And the first sentence of chapter 10 has Queequeg "quite alone" sitting with his statue/god. Queequeg left the sermon early. Perhaps moved to return to spend time with his own god.
(2) "You cannot hide the soul." Moby Dick, I believe, does does deal with men's souls.
(3) Ishmael would seem to have had a very bad experience with someone ... from his church? a Christian who treated him un-Christianly? "I'll try a pagan friend, thought I, since Christian kindness has proved but hollow courtesy." This following his earlier, "...better to sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunk Christian."
(4) bosom. QQ claps Ishmael tightly and says they were now married, "meaning, in his country's phrase, that we were bosom friends; he would gladly die for me, if need should be."
I can't find in myself to feel that Ishmael would do the same at this point for QQ. I tried. I think what was missing was there was no thought on Ishmael's part, "and I would do the same for him."
(5) the thirty pieces of silver. Symbolically money of betrayal. What could possibly come to mind other than Judas taking the 30 pieces of silver and betraying Jesus. Queequeg puts half of them in Ishmael's pocket. "I let them stay." Is Ishmael going to halfways betray QQ or someone else later in the book? Is he betraying his God in worshiping the idol with Queequeg?
Since Ishmael calls himself "a good Christian; born and bred in the bosom of the infallible [sarcasm?] Presbyterian Church" is he betraying his God in worshiping the idol with Queequeg?
Interesting paragraph. Sophistic reasoning. He asks "What is worship?" "To do the will of God." And what does God will? To do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And what would Ishmael want done to himself?
"Why, unite with me in my particular Presbyterian form of worship."
IS Ishmael wanting true reconciliation with his Presbyterian roots? OR, does he only want his own PARTICULAR form of worship...i.e., is his own claim to that religion hollow... mere courtesy?
{EDIT added} I think we have to remember about Ishmael... he's not exactly straightforward. He's introduced himself to us under an assumed name. "Call me Ishmael." "I am quick to perceive a horror, and could still be social with it..." "...I was thus closely scanning him, half-pretending ... to be looking out at the storm..."
Remember the admonition of Father Mapple? "To preach the Truth to the face of Falsehood." Does Ishmael BELIEVE in Queequeeg's "piece of wood." Ishmael's words. Mere form.
Adelle wrote: "the thirty pieces of silver. Symbolically money of betrayal..."Missed that one! Too obvious, even though I don't know yet where it will lead. Thx, Adelle.
At #102 Lily wrote: "Adelle wrote: "the thirty pieces of silver. Symbolically money of betrayal..."
Missed that one! Too obvious, even though I don't know yet where it will lead. Thx, Adelle."
Yeah. I've forgotten much of the book since we last read it. Where WILL it lead? And I'm curious... will there be a total betrayal somehow...??? Partial???? That half business intrigues me.
Missed that one! Too obvious, even though I don't know yet where it will lead. Thx, Adelle."
Yeah. I've forgotten much of the book since we last read it. Where WILL it lead? And I'm curious... will there be a total betrayal somehow...??? Partial???? That half business intrigues me.
Wow! I missed this meaning too. Since the money came from Qq so the betrayed will not be him, maybe God, the christian one, as Adelle said.
Rafael wrote: "Wow! I missed this meaning too. Since the money came from Qq so the betrayed will not be him, maybe God, the christian one, as Adelle said."
This morning, I'm leaning that way too. You make a good point; the money came from Qq... So it's likely not Qq being betrayed. More likely the Christian God as shown in the following paragraph in which Ishmael pretends to worship "the piece of wood" knowing that Qq was a 'idolator."
Ishmael knew what he was doing. "...knowing full well what was to follow, I deliberated a moment, in case he [Qq] invited me [to worship with him], I would comply or otherwise."
Maybe Ishmael doesn't believe in the Christian God or Qq's god.
So...Will there be a cost?
This morning, I'm leaning that way too. You make a good point; the money came from Qq... So it's likely not Qq being betrayed. More likely the Christian God as shown in the following paragraph in which Ishmael pretends to worship "the piece of wood" knowing that Qq was a 'idolator."
Ishmael knew what he was doing. "...knowing full well what was to follow, I deliberated a moment, in case he [Qq] invited me [to worship with him], I would comply or otherwise."
Maybe Ishmael doesn't believe in the Christian God or Qq's god.
So...Will there be a cost?
Mmmm. Queegueg knows that logically Ishmael---unexperienced in whaling--- should not choose the ship. But his god has told him Ishmael is to choose. Qq knows that his god doesn't akways get it right, but he goes with what his god says.
Ishmael "says" his God is infallible, knows his God forbids idolatry, and goes against what his God says.
Ishmael "says" his God is infallible, knows his God forbids idolatry, and goes against what his God says.
I'm going back and looking into some of the Biblical references. "God has heard" apparently doesn't mean God heard or hears Ishmael. God heard Hagar. Ishmael, not so much.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
The Heart's Invisible Furies (other topics)Moby Dick: America’s Epic (other topics)
The Greek name Euroclydon consists of two elements. Eurous... east wind. The second part from kluzo, meaning to surge... "Metaphorically, ..."
Very interesting. I had no idea that Euroclydon had that kind of etymology. It's also interesting how the etymology evolved for the whale. Also the extracts seem to show the whale as an indestructible leviathan at first but seem to show the practical uses of the spermacetti oil and the way that the whales were killed by humans towards the end.