"Spinning Silver" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Chris]

Who will be reading Spinning Silver with us?

Update: This was originally the thread for a Buddy Read in July 2018. It is now being used for full discussion of the group's Fantasy selection of May 2019. If you wish to skip the BR talk, you can scroll down to message 48.

[Ariana]

I am planning on it!

[Shomeret]

I won't get the book on time. I'm #13 on a hold list.

[Kristin B.]

I just finished the book I was reading and I have this pre-ordered on Kindle, so I am ready to go! (I am going to try really hard not to start reading at midnight because I have to work tomorrow.)

[Ivy]

I read this arc a few months ago and it now ranks among my favorite books of all time. I can't wait to hear what you all think!!!

[Renee]

I hope to their is a huge wait list at my library. I love this author. I will read whenever I get the book. I may be posting veryl late

[Chris]

I started it today. Definitely a dark tone.

(view spoiler)[Novik hints at the anti-Semitism that separated Medieval moneylenders and their clients, though moneylenders aren't explicitly called Jews. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

I've read the first three chapters.

(view spoiler)[I'm already in love with Miryem as a kick ass main character. She is just not taking bullshit from anyone. It's excellent.

I can't wait to see how Wanda grows. She's kind of passive so far, but I can definitely see her becoming something amazing. Her relationship with her brothers is so strange to me right now, but I understand. For some reason it made me think of the sibling relationships in The Bear and the Nightingale. Not that they are similar. More that they are polar opposite. (hide spoiler)]

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

I'm in, but I don't know when I'll get my copy from the library.

[Kristin B.]

Through chapter 11

(view spoiler)[The story already had so much going on with Miryem, Wanda and Irina. In chapter 11 we also have Stepon's point of view and it's so sweet and sad. I'm glad that even though Wanda had to leave, we still get to check on Stepon. It was interesting learning about how he talked to his mama in the tree. (No my eyes are not watering. They always look that shiny.)

With all these different story lines I am really interested to see how she is going to wrap everything up. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

My copy is taking a bit longer from the library. Hoping to have it by this weekend.

[Chris]

Kristin B. wrote: "Through chapter 11"

(view spoiler)[I doubt that Stepon will be a major character going forward. My guess is that Novik just wanted to show that scene and needed a POV.

Speaking of POV, does anyone else wish that POV changes would be marked explicitly with character names? POV can change within a chapter. I am listening to the audiobook so I don't have the visual cue of a scene break. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Chris wrote: "Speaking of POV, does a..."

Yeah. The POV switches are a bit disorienting. I can't even imagine how frustrating that would be on audio.

[Kristin B.]

Finished!

(view spoiler)[I was really wondering if I would love this book as much as I have loved everything else by Novik, and I was not at all disappointed. This book both went way too fast, but also felt so much bigger than 480 pages. In a recent interview Novik said she was moving away from series writing, like she had done with Temeraire, to write stand-alones because she likes endings. I certainly enjoy stand-alones, especially when they cover so many stories!

I liked that the different narrators had unique voices. I think Irina and Miryem were similar, but Wanda's sections felt very unique. Stepon's sections almost always made me want to cry with how sweet and sad they were.

I could probably write paragraph upon paragraph about parts that I liked, but I think one of my favorites was a parallel that I found between Wanda and Miryem. At one point Wanda thought:

I had not known that I was strong enough to do any of those things until they were over and I had done them. I had to do the work first, not knowing.

And then Miryem thought:

...magic that came only when you made some larger version of yourself with words and promises, and then stepped inside and somehow grew to fill it.

I just like the way these two thoughts mirrored each other and matched the identity of each girl. Wanda would always put her head down and do the work because she knew she had to, and then be surprised at what she accomplished. Miryem exemplified "fake it til you make it" and just used sheer confidence and intelligence to somehow make it work.

Another part of this I liked was all the different takes on parental influence. Miryem's parents were loving and kind, but her dad lacked determination, so Miryem found it on her own. Wanda's father was horrendous and her mother was gone and their terrible upbringing had Wanda looking at her siblings as competition instead of someone to cherish, until she saw what a real family was like. Irina's father was cold and calculating, but managed to teach her the intelligence and cunning she needed to survive. Mirnatius' mother sold him off before he was even born and it made it impossible for him to care about anyone else.

I love that none of the characters were flat. They all had different sides, good parts and flaws. All except for Chernobog, but you know, demon.

I will say I am torn a bit over the ending. the Staryk lord and the Tsar are both very problematic partners. As much as I like a happy ending, sometimes I wonder if letting them live happily ever after together is the right thing to do.

Also, did anyone else get a Hades and Persephone vibe with Miryem only being able to visit for part of the year? (hide spoiler)]

I'm going to a book signing for Naomi Novik in two weeks, and I'm super excited! Now I just have to decide if I want her to sign Uprooted, His Majesty's Dragon or Spinning Silver. So hard to choose!

[Ruth]

My pre-order has arrived on my Kindle several days ago but I’ve been busy so I’ve only managed to read 1 chapter so far. Loved the start of the story with the moneylender’s daughter and the mysterious Staryk.

[Ariana]

Kristin B. wrote: "Chris wrote: "Speaking of POV, does a..."

Yeah. The POV switches are a bit disorienting. I can't even imagine how frustrating that would be on audio."

Well this isn't promising. I just got my copy, which is the audiobook. Any advice before I start on how to not get confused about the POV switches?

[Anna]

I've also started the audiobook, and it helped me just knowing to expect that. The narrator does change her voice the tiniest bit at least for one POV, but it's very subtle. But anytime you start feeling confused, that's when you'll know the POV just changed! You get used to it pretty fast.

[Anna]

The audio is getting more confusing as more POVs are popping up.

[Ariana]

Anna wrote: "The audio is getting more confusing as more POVs are popping up."

Yaaaaaaaaay.

[Anna]

lol, sorry! I was doing fine when there were three POVs. Then a fourth was added and it was still OKish. Chapter 15 started (I think?) with a fifth, and now it feels like I have to pay super close attention. It's so hot here, I feel drowsy all the time, I can't spare brain power for this.

It would help if someone who is further along could tell me if there are going to be more new POVs? As long as I know what the possible characters are, I can figure out who it is. It only gets very confusing when I think it's one of the previous ones when it isn't.

So, heads up, a fourth POV is added during chapter 11, and a fifth at the start of chapter 15.

edit: Another new POV in chapter 17, but it's easy to spot.

[Chris]

Yeah, Novik went crazy with the POVs. I wish she had taken a page from Guy Gavriel Kay. He will sometimes use a minor character for POV in just one scene/chapter.

[Kristin B.]

Anna wrote: "lol, sorry! I was doing fine when there were three POVs. Then a fourth was added and it was still OKish. Chapter 15 started (I think?) with a fifth, and now it feels like I have to pay super close ..."

POV's I remember:
(view spoiler)[I think you have probably gotten to all of them at this point. But the POV's I remember are Miryem, Wanda, Irina, Stepon, Mirnatius and Magreta. I think that was all of them. And I want to say that Mirnatius and Magreta were limited to like two instances each. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I wouldn't mind several POVs if there was a mention of who we're switching to, or even a longer break. I don't think it's the book's or Novik's fault, it's whoever put together this audio without sufficient breaks between POVs.

[Ariana]

Chris wrote: "I started it today. Definitely a dark tone."

I finally started this, and I am not feeling it. Super dark and depressing. Does it lighten up, or at least get less oppressive feeling?

[Anna]

It does feel more reminiscent of the darker fairytales I grew up knowing than, say a random YA retelling which has more romance. I guess it depends on how much you like the characters whether you'll find it very depressing. I'm not connecting with anyone especially, possibly because of the audio and all POVs feeling the same, but I very much appreciate what Novik has done with the original fairytale.

[Anna]

I finished, it's too hot to try and think, but a couple of things:

(view spoiler)[ Kristin, I agree with you about the ending. I'm not super emotional about it, but I just don't see the romances happening. I would have preferred another path for the women. I also paid attention to the same quote by Wanda, I loved how she thought of math as magic. Stepon's POV was surprisingly touching, I'm happy the children found a family. (hide spoiler)]

3.5 stars

[Chris]

Finished today.

(view spoiler)[I enjoyed it. I heard that Rumpelstiltskin was the source, but I'm pretty sure that several other folktales also contributed.

The Staryk were familiar elves/fae: tied to nature, proud, making contracts, being tricky, caring little about mortal humans. I looked up Chernobog; apparently he was a Slavic deity of darkness. I like how the Staryk started out as villains and then became sympathetic once we saw more of them and their perspective.

Kristin, I did think of Persephone and the six-month compromise pretty early on. It fits both Miriyem's personal dilemma and the return to a balance of the seasons.

I liked that Miriyem and her family were Jews, and we were given a small glimpse of the precarious position of Jews in medieval Europe. They were neighbors and countrymen, yet they were seen as outsiders and always had to fear violence as scapegoats. There is a nice parallel between Miriyem's growth in understanding and sympathy for the Staryk and Wanda's for Jews.

I loved the house that existed in both realms.

The book felt long to me. The plot often dragged. After reading three Temeraire books and Uprooted and now Spinning Silver, my impression is that Novik has a lot of talent in making memorable characters, but the pacing of her books feels uneven to me. Many parts that lacked tension could have been compressed, and the climactic scenes (especially the final fight with Chernobog) could have been drawn out.

Overall, I'd say that Spinning Silver is a great addition to the current surge in retelling of folklore and mythology. I would definitely like to see Novik write another one. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

I am in Ch. 13. I was really looking forward to this, so maybe it's suffering from too high expectations?
(view spoiler)[
I kind of hated the beginning. Child abuse and neglect, dead babies, REALLY not my thing. Then the plot picked up and I was getting into it, I quite like the main characters. But now nothing is happening and it's terrible again. Miryem is imprisoned, endlessly walking up and down ice tunnels and staircases, and we (like her) have no idea what's going on with the Staryk or why the king is being such a d*** to her... Ugh.
(hide spoiler)]

[Silvana]

I am lukewarm about Uprooted, will I enjoy this one?

[Barb]

I just got a copy! Hope to start soon.

[Kristin B.]

Silvana wrote: "I am lukewarm about Uprooted, will I enjoy this one?"

What did you like/dislike in Uprooted? I feel like this book was similar as far as story telling (though this story has more intertwining storylines), but the story itself and the characters are different.

[Anna]

I felt this was more fairytalish than Uprooted, but the pacing was better. I liked Uprooted, but I was mostly reading (YA) fantasy at that time, so my taste is a bit different now. I liked this less, but I might recommend it to people who liked The Bear and the Nightingale.

[Silvana]

@Kristin: It's been years but I remember not particularly a fan of the romance parts. And it also feels YA-ish. I did enjoy Novik's Temeraire books so I was slightly disappointed she changed course to this kind of fantasy.

[Kristin B.]

Silvana wrote: "@Kristin: It's been years but I remember not particularly a fan of the romance parts. And it also feels YA-ish. I did enjoy Novik's Temeraire books so I was slightly disappointed she changed course..."

Not really a spoiler, but I'm going to throw it behind a tag just in case.

(view spoiler)[There is a small amount of a romantic element. I would say even less so than in Uprooted. But it is very minor and really doesn't even play in until the very end. It does feel along the same age level as Uprooted, though it tackles antisemitism which gives it a more mature feel. There are also more interconnecting story lines here, which I think give it a bit more depth.

Her fairy tales are definitely a lot different than Termeraire. I love both. I would say you could always see about downloading a sample from Amazon to give it a shot. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

I finished this today. I came around on this book after not being very taken with it in the beginning.

(view spoiler)[I'm going to agree with pretty much all of what Chris said. I thought the pacing was a bit off, and the parts that were slow were a drag, but once the plot picked up again I really enjoyed it. I loved the descriptions of the Jewish community and the recurring theme of wanting to protect your people (community).
I loved the way certain things were magical in a way that wasn't explained but that seemed totally plausible in a fairy tale sort of way (everything about the little house, the interaction between the two worlds and how to travel between them).
The romance at the end felt tacked on. I'm not a huge fan of the not uncommon theme of awesome women having to prove how great they are before powerful men will take them seriously. Can't we just appreciate Miryem being a badass without needing the Staryk lord to take a romantic interest in her to validate the fact that she is great?
But I enjoyed it overall.

One quick plot point: so why exactly did the Staryk want gold so badly? Something about it being sunshine? And why did Miryem changing the silver to gold make winter longer?
(hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Ariana wrote: "One quick plot point: so why exactly did the Staryk want gold so badly?..."

So I think I understood this.

(view spoiler)[By turning the silver to gold it essentially stole power from the sun. The Staryk was able to use this to fight Chernobog. By stealing the sun's power, it made the winter last longer. Chernobog was the reason that the Staryk kingdom was suffering, and Chernobog seems to react negatively to the sun. We see that in his reaction to the gold at the end of the story and in the fact that he doesn't control Mirnatius during the day.

At least, I think that's how it all worked. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Kristin B. wrote: "So I think I understood this..."

Thanks! Ok, so a follow up:
(view spoiler)[Is there a difference between regular gold that the Staryk steal from humans and the gold Miryem makes by transforming the silver? Clearly there's a difference in the human world between regular silver and Staryk silver...
I got the impression that when Miryem was changing the silver, it was trapping the sunlight and actively making the winter stick around. But that seems different than Staryk raiders stealing human gold... I dunno. This wasn't the type of plot that relied on small details.
(hide spoiler)]

[Chris]

(view spoiler)[One thing that seemed strange was that the Staryk and Chernobog were enemies. The Staryk like long winters with little sunlight and long nights. Chernobog likes long nights and is powerless during the day. Win-win, right? I get that the Staryk taste good and are filling meals. I guess that Chernobog is not a deep thinker, just wanting the next morsel to devour. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Kristin B. wrote: "Ariana wrote: "One quick plot point: so why exactly did the Staryk want gold so badly?..."

So I think I understood this...."

(view spoiler)[That is actually a very good question. Because the Staryk king took the gold she earned by selling the jewelry just as readily as he used the gold she made in his kingdom. I think it may just be that it has a different energy because it was made by human craftsmanship. That combined with Staryk magic made it a weapon against Chernobog. I think it has something to do with the way the Staryk magic system works. It's all about value. The king was able to create powerful magic to hold back time in exchange for Miryem being able to complete a task she should not have been able to complete. But he would not have been able to do so if she hadn't. Their magic system seems to be based on a rule of values. Gold is important to humans, so that makes it valuable... None of that probably makes any sense, but it's what my brain came up with. :) (hide spoiler)]

Chris wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[I think that's exactly it. Chernobog doesn't care about the future. He only cares about slaking his appetite. And the winters only got longer when Chernobog was in power. The Staryk's raided occasionally before that time, but for the most part lived in balance with the humans. The raiding and winters got so much worse because they were trying to heal from Chernobog's negative influence. (hide spoiler)]

[Chris]

More on Chernobog vs. the Staryk:
(view spoiler)[I don't think that Chernobog was responsible for the longer winters. I think that was the Staryk. The Staryk predicted that if Chernobog won, everything would be hot and burning. Irina sided with Chernobog because his triumph would bring an end to winter, which was the immediate threat to Litvas. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Chris wrote: "More on Chernobog vs. the Staryk:
[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[My impression was that having Chernobog on the throne (in power) was bad for the Staryk kingdom, and was causing the mountain to melt (not clear on the mechanism there). In response, the Staryk were stockpiling gold (and maybe doing other magic things) to combat Chernobog's influence, and this lead to the winters getting longer and longer.

I did sort of like the idea that Chernobog and the Staryk were on opposite ends of the fire/ice spectrum, while humans are neutral in this axis (humans need both summer and winter). But humans are opposite from both the Staryk and Chernobog in the daylight/night axis.
(hide spoiler)]

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Silvana wrote: "@Kristin: It's been years but I remember not particularly a fan of the romance parts. And it also feels YA-ish. I did enjoy Novik's Temeraire books so I was slightly disappointed she changed course..."


This is kinda funny because I read Uprooted first and then read the first Temeraire book, and I'd commented that if I'd read Temeraire first, I might never have read Uprooted...

***

Started this recently. Around page 140 or so, so got a ways to go. I feel like things are finally starting to get interesting.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Page 242 -

I'm also finding the POV switches to be jarring, and that's while reading. My biggest issue is the weird sort of time lags and jumps that happens. Like when (view spoiler)[Miryem sees Irina and her nurse at the lake, and we know it's them, and then we go back in time with Irina to bring her up to the point where she's at the lake. (hide spoiler)]

I'm also finding the story somewhat predictable, but I'm hoping that I end up being wrong.

I can't agree that the pacing is better in this one than Uprooted. Not to say Uprooted didn't have some pacing problems - especially in the middle - but the pacing feels very sluggish to me in this.

[Anna]

colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "I can't agree that the pacing is better in this one than Uprooted. Not to say Uprooted didn't have some pacing problems - especially in the middle - but the pacing feels very sluggish to me in this. "

Maybe I didn't notice it as much because I was listening to the audio. Uprooted has that weird part in the midde where the pace totally changes, so it felt more abrupt.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Page 326: Chapter 19

Things are starting to come together, and the disparate POVs are connecting, so that's cool.

I liked the bit in the hut, with (view spoiler)[Wanda and Sergey on one side and Irina's nurse lady on the other, and the magic between the 2 huts and how they had no idea who was on the other side. (hide spoiler)]

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Finished last night.

I definitely agree about the pacing issues. When things were interesting they were very interesting, but when it was a drag, it was such a drag. I ended up giving it 3-3.5 stars.

I also agree about the (view spoiler)[romance (hide spoiler)] feeling tacked on at the end. At the same time, though, I actually saw it coming and figured that that was the direction it was going to go, especially once the menfolk were being portrayed as growing softer and we saw more about the truth of their histories and motivations.

I did like that, throughout the story, about how you had one perception of people or what was happening, but then you'd learn something which would change your perspective of them.

But, anyway, back to the (view spoiler)[romances... I did end up liking Miryem's and the Staryk's more, because she, at least, made him work for it. I agree that the trope of women having to prove their worth is annoying, but I felt like, for the Staryk, at least, he kind of have to prove himself worthy of her, too.

Conversely, Irina sort of bent to Mirnatius {sp?} far too quickly after hearing a sob story - in this case literally (lol) - and then being like, "Oh, well, he's not so bad".

Nah. He was still a dick, yo. (hide spoiler)]

***

As to the big battle... the way I saw it was that (view spoiler)[something happened when Chernobog took the throne that broke the mountain, which is what separated the Staryk realm from our realm, and the crack in the mountain was letting Chernobog feed on the Staryk people.

But they fought back by keeping the winter longer, because it was the ice that was blocking off the crack in the mountain.

So Chernobog was pretty much entirely to blame for the Staryk extending the winter, because they were just trying to defend themselves.

Of course, that doesn't change the other things that the Staryk had done in the winter, previously... (hide spoiler)]

My big issue with the whole Chernobog thing, though, was it didn't make any sense to me for him to be (view spoiler)[damaged by sunlight. I mean, as a fire demon, you'd think that he'd have an affinity for the sun. He certainly seemed to have an affinity for summer. So the whole 'destroyed by sunlight' made, like, zero sense, to me, for a fire demon. (hide spoiler)]

***

That aside, I was kind of reminded of Howl's Moving Castle, with the whole (view spoiler)[swallowing a fire demon thing. (hide spoiler)]

[Donald]

Finally got a hold and finished this.

I always find it interesting when people make the same comments as me - and definitely in this case it was the pacing.

It took me over a week to plod through the first half of the book. I really struggled, and considered putting it up at least once. The second half basically got consumed in one night, and the story itself felt rushed on top of that.

The only thing that saved it for me was that even though I was struggling through the book, it always felt like a really good book. I liked the characters, the interactions and the world. I much preferred it over Uprooted and Temeraire, though I've only read the first of that series.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Hello all! We're going to use this thread for our full discussion!

Chris, could I impose upon you to update your first post, please?

Were you enchanted by this story or did it leave you cold?
What worked or didn't for you compared to her other works (please try not to spoil other books!)
What stories did you find referenced in Spinning Silver?

You do not need to use spoiler tags! From this post onward is full, uncovered spoilers, please be advised.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Okay, I guess I'll start us off!

So, I love fairy tales, and seeing what they intend to communicate. So many are lessons and warnings--listen to your parents, don't talk to strange men, if you cheat or pretend to be someone you're not you'll eventually pay for it etc.

I thought this was really faithful to that vibe. In fairy tales, beating children is more or less a given, and there's just a bunch of feminine horror, which is to say elements of the dark and spooky that speak specifically to people seen as "less than" men. I thought this had that in spades, but not in a grimdark way. We're constantly worrying that the women will be hit or tortured or violated and they have to use their wits and wiles to protect themselves--that, in many ways, is all they have against sheer brute strength that does not value their comfort. And, like in most fairy tales, they are able to outsmart their captors and stay true to their morals, their God, or their goals.

Speaking of God, I was so thrilled to find another positive example of Judaism in this book! Loving this trend of including other faiths as a normal part in speculative fiction. I loved how Novik was able to capture both the sense of community and oppression, so it never became "oppression porn" but also didn't skate past a very real, important part of the Jewish experience.

And I'm so glad that we went "happily ever after" at the end, instead of sticking to the Grimm brothers' approach. It managed not to feel twee, the romance was just hinted at, but it was satisfying to see everyone redeemed and worthy.

I am a bit grumbly about how the POVs had nothing obvious to distinguish the sections until you found the clue/voice. A header with the name of the narrator or third person would have solved that, but it also would have made it feel less modern. I get why she chose first person present, but it did take me out of the flow of the story every time I had to figure out who was talking.

But, despite that minor complaint, I thought it was superb, and I'm glad I didn't let my past experience with Uprooted get in my way!

(Thanks for updating the first comment, Chris!)

[Travis]

Just finished reading through this amazing thread about an amazing novel... I'm in the camp of folk who were decidedly meh about Uprooted but loved this one.

I think one of my favorite aspects here was the theme of collectivity and, especially, sisterhood. There was that great line on page 108 when Miryem is observing Irina, a woman separated from her in hugely significant ways, and sees the parallels in their existence: "As she dropped her head and turned back into the room, our eyes met: we didn't speak, but for a moment I felt her a sister, our lives in the hands of others. She wasn't likely to have any more choice in the matter than I did."

I also loved how Novik showed oppression and abuse causing great and lasting pain even while providing knowledge and insight. Stepon's ability to always see the truth behind the surface of adults' speech and expression was haunting and beautiful for me because it seemed to be knowledge he acquired through the experience of an abusive father. Likewise, I saw the Mandelstam's almost instinctive kindness of toward Wanda, Sergey, and Stepon to be in part a reaction (maybe not even a conscious one) to the antisemitic hostilities they daily experienced from their neighbors.

I'm maybe in the minority in that I loved the pacing and POV shifts, even when the shift meant returning to an earlier point in the chronology. Both allowed the structure to mirror the theme of interconnection in ways I found incredibly moving.

My one complaint echoes Kristin's and Anna's above ---

Kristin B. wrote: "
I will say I am torn a bit over the ending. the Staryk lord and the Tsar are both very problematic partners. As much as I like a happy ending, sometimes I wonder if letting them live happily ever after together is the right thing to do.."

Ending with marriage felt to me a bit false and rushed. I would have been much more content a less conclusive conclusion.

After reading Uprooted, I was pretty sure I'd never again read Novic. So I'm very grateful this group encouraged me to give her another try!