Discuss He, She, and It

[Katherine]

Also what is with the milky fluid as blood replacement in cyborgs? I think Abram's first attempt (that Gadi and Shira discover when he attacks David) has this. Makes me think of the androids in the Alien films.

[Allison]

Am I the only one with Weird Al's "Pretty Fly (For a Rabbi)" stuck in their head while reading this book?

[Melissa]

I wonder if it's the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon where you're learning about something and suddenly you encounter it everywhere, or not, but I've been seeing a lot of AI stuff lately!

[Sara]

I'm not very far through the book, but I don't think I can finish it. I feel like Piercy is trying to introduce and deal with a lot of concepts right up front, like feminism, utopian society, classism, religious prejudice, etc. I like it when books make me think about those topics. I don't like it when the author throws it all at me, very obviously, within the first chapter.
I'll try to stick with it but I think I'm going to lem it.

[Stephanie]

Katherine wrote: "Also what is with the milky fluid as blood replacement in cyborgs? I think Abram's first attempt (that Gadi and Shira discover when he attacks David) has this. Makes me think of the androids in the..."

I have been thinking about this, as well. I always thought androids/cyborgs would need a fluid that would cool circuitry and lubricate. And then they mentioned that Yod eats every few days so he must have a need and a way to break down glucose. And here is an article about MIT scientist making fuel cells that run on the body's glucose:
http://io9.com/5918672/brain-implants...

But why white? Well they would not have to have hemoglobin if the didn't need to carry oxygen. But there is also a blood replacement in medicine that IS white, made from fluorocarbons and it does carry oxygen in case your cyborg had biological bits that needs oxygen ;) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluosol

[Sean Lookielook]

Katherine wrote: "Also what is with the milky fluid as blood replacement in cyborgs?"

The purpose of using a different color blood is to graphically demonstrate to the reader the inhuman nature of the entity. This occurs often enough that it can be called a trope (see 2nd last paragraph). Also, since the publication of this book postdates the film Alien by twelve years (1991 vs 1979), it's safe to assume that either the white blood was inspired by the film, even if only indirectly through popular culture, or that it is based on Fluosol, as mentioned by Stephanie in the previous post. In fact, Fluosol was in use at the time the movie was being made, and it may have been the original inspiration for the white color.

[retro]

Still at the beginning, so maybe I'm off in my interpretation, but the dialog doesn't really feel... well, like dialog. The whole book is one info dump after another, but it's particularly egregious in the conversations between characters. It reads more like a play, with the author trying to get certain points across (about the setting, about losing Ari, etc) via dialog rather than two people talking. Between this and the weird structure, I doubt I'm going to finish the novel. :/

[Heather]

Veronica wrote: "I'm only about 5% in, and this book just isn't capturing me. I'm a little bored, frankly. Does it pick up?"

The Prague bits do pick up as well. When the story of the golem starts relating more to the story of Yod, it makes a bit more sense. The early Prague chapters are beyond tedious, though.

[Brittany]

For those of you having a hard time getting into the book at the beginning, I suggest starting at Chapter 5. You miss some world building and the bits where her husband gets custody of her son, but I think it's easy to fill in all those blanks and missing pieces throughout the rest of the story.

[Gunnhildur]

The first few chapters were difficult to get through but when Joseph entered the story for Yod it started to make more sense and I started to enjoy it.

[Sean Lookielook]

Brittany wrote: "For those of you having a hard time getting into the book at the beginning, I suggest starting at Chapter 5. You miss some world building and the bits where her husband gets custody of her son, but..."

I think the general consensus is that the first few chapters need some editing. If you are going to quit, I would suggest that you start at Chapter 5 as Brittany suggests. These aren't really spoilers for chapters 1-4, so I'm not going to hide them, but if you haven't read them and still want to, you should stop reading this post now.

Global climate change has ravaged the planet. Governments have failed, and the majority of people now live in domed cities run by corporations or in the violent ghettos (Glops) that surround them to escape the heat and UV radiation. After Shira loses a custody battle for her only son, he and his father emigrate to an orbiting satelite out of her reach. Financially strapped from the court case and disillusioned at the corporate lifestyle, she takes a job in her old home town, Tikva, with the father of her childhood love, who is secretly building a cyborg to protect their town. Meanwhile in a story told to the cyborg, Yod, by Shira's grandmother, Malkah, a man receives a vision to construct a golem, a magical man made of clay, to protect the people of the Jewish ghetto in 1600's Prague.

[Ylva]

Sara wrote: "I'm not very far through the book, but I don't think I can finish it. I feel like Piercy is trying to introduce and deal with a lot of concepts right up front, like feminism, utopian society, class..."

I have the same "problem" here, Sara. I actually finished it a week ago, and I still am not entirely sure what to think about it. I didn't really "hate" it, though all the Joseph passages were really hard for me to get through (and I admit that finally I skipped or fast-read a lot). But I didn't really enjoy it either.

I like it too, when books make you think about stuff. But I don't like it, when you get the feeling of finger pointing about some morality issues in combination with explanations why you should act this or that way. I want to make up my own mind about why some actions are good or not. To me it is a bit like explaining a joke: you'd rather want to get it on your own.

I also felt a lot of redundancy about the whole cyborg morality matter and other stuff. Not that I don't like these topics, but she could have tried to avoid repeating herself. Maybe she was juggling a bit too much with all her ideas. I mean, there is really a lot of (really interesting but maybe too many) things going on: religion, future, feminism, family matters, pressure, history, myth, realtionships, how your past influeces you in every possible way,… all the way up to cyborgs.

What I really liked though was the way she described the relations between the characters. Some things she totally left unsaid, but you could feel them anyway. I also was fascinated by the fact that this book has really little dialogue and gets along with that really well. I usually like a lot of dialogue but here it was nice to go without it and to get the story on a more mental level.

[Laura]

I didn't particularly enjoy this book. I struggled to read it, some parts were dry and it didn't hold my interest for long.
Plus the sexual relationship betweeen Malkah and Yod, then Shira and Yod made me feel a bit uggh. Grandma's sloppy seconds.

[Allison]

I finally finished this over the weekend. A book this length would normally take me a couple of days... I struggled with this one for 8. I would have either lemmed it or skipped the Joseph sections if it wasn't a book group pick. I finally started barely skimming those sections. I feel like just the story of Yod would have been a fairly good stand alone book. I didn't hate this book, but the Joseph sections made me not like it overall. I felt like that took me out of the story I found of interest and made my brain go into a coma...

[Lindsay]

I am in love with fact that Piercy parallels the myth of the Golem to cyborgs. I cannot believe I never connected the idea that Golems were essentially archaic artificial intelligences. It is great and so inspired!

[Lindsay]

Veronica wrote: "I'm only about 5% in, and this book just isn't capturing me. I'm a little bored, frankly. Does it pick up?"

I was stuck on the first two and a half chapters for a week, but it is starting to find its pacing. Also, Shira's grandmother is AMAZING. She starts talking about her sexual history I nearly fell over laughing.

[Whats_her_face1221]

Lindsay wrote: "I am in love with fact that Piercy parallels the myth of the Golem to cyborgs. I cannot believe I never connected the idea that Golems were essentially archaic artificial intelligences. It is great..."

Yes, I liked this comparison as well. Another thing I thought of while considering this comparison is that in the bible, god creates Adam out of dust/clay (and the breath of life) which is also how Golems are made.

If we are descended from Adam (and Eve), doesn't that make us Golems as well? And what does that mean for the issues of morality in creating sentient beings but keeping them enslaved via programming?

[Minsta]

I agree with the posts about the pace of this book - so slow to read! I find myself checking the page numbers to see how far I have gotten, which I usually do not do when I am reading. I am much more of a sci fi fan than a folklore reader, so that explains why some chapters are harder for me to get through.

Here are some more translations:
Rebitzin - Rabbi's wife
zoftik - overweight and/or round figure (but meant as description, not a put down)
Rosh HaShanah - literally "head of the the year" - Jewish New Year celebration that usually occurs in Sept.
Rosh Chodesh - start of a new month (Jewish months follow a lunar calendar)
Aramaic - everyday language used in biblical times in the mideast. The Talmud is written in Aramaic and so are ketubahs (Jewish wedding contracts).
bat - Hebrew for "daughter"
Yiddish - mostly German written with Hebrew letters, used by Orthodox Jews who only use Hebrew for prayer. (Since my dad knew Yiddish he was able to act as a translator when he was stationed in Europe in WWII).
alef, bet, gimel, dalet, hey, vav, zayin, chet, tet, yud - first 10 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. The author uses "Yod" instead of "yud" for the number ten.
wig - orthodox Jewish women cover their heads with a wig (or sometimes just a scarf) to show modesty after they have married.

More in my next post :)

[Minsta]

More translations:
menorah - candelabra, 7 branches for a shabbat menorah, 9 for a Hanukkah menorah.
shamash - helper
dybbuk - spirit
davening - praying
Simchat Torah - Jewish holiday to celebrate the Torah. Tradition is to march/dance around the temple and/or community with a Torah 7 times during the celebration.
HaShem - literally "the name" - another name for G-d
traif - nonKosher foods, like pork, bacon, shellfish...
Havdalah - Saturday night, the end of Shabbat. The traditions include lighting a braided candle and smelling spices from a box, in order to not be sad that Shabbat is over.
Cheder - religious school for Jewish boys (Orthodox)
Adar - a Jewish month that is usually during March.
Halakic Law - Jewish law
minyan - 10 or more Jewish adults (or 10 or more Jewish men for Orthodox) needed to perform specific religious ceremonies.

[Karyn]

I found a website www.hebrew4christians.com has a lot of information on the language.
I found it interesting that the Hebrew symbol for Yod appears in the title.
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[Krysta]

I'm only about halfway through. To everyone who was saying it was slow-going to begin with, I am there with you... SO hard for me to get into this book. But be patient... once you are a few chapters in it really does pick up.

[Heather]

I finished it and did not expect to sob, so thanks for that, book.

Spoilers- I wish Shira had spent a little time considering that building a new Yod, even if the specs were the same, would never really bring back Yod. Because he was a person, he could never really be recreated, he would never have the same memories or responses and could never truly be her Yod.

[PointyEars42]

Going to take that advice about skipping to chapter 5 - the clumsy info dumping and choppy little sentences are setting my teeth on edge and I don't have the energy for a hate-read right now. I've not even managed to finish the first chapter in a week because being hit in the eye by the Exposition Fairy this often hurts, you know?

[Beshemoth]

Has anyone else searched for the book on Audible.com?? The result is: "He has to Lick it Before She Can Stick It." Think that should be our next pick?!!? Hahaha

[Lindsay]

Did anyone else find the sex scenes passionless? There is something, and I swear I am not trying to use a pun here, mechanical?

Maybe that was intentional. Shiva didn't lay with Yod because of romantic feelings, but for a biological urge to reclaim herself and sexual power. Nevertheless, it was odd and not really enjoyable.

[Glaiza]

Lindsay wrote: "Did anyone else find the sex scenes passionless? There is something, and I swear I am not trying to use a pun here, mechanical?

Maybe that was intentional. Shiva didn't lay with Yod because of rom..."

I felt the same, Shira's internal dialogue seems to come from an analytical/almost clinical observational pov so in those scenes, it didn't feel like a familiar sexy kind of passion (which I agree, may have been the point). I actually thought that Yod and Shira's conversations felt more intimate than the actual sex scenes.

Later in the novel, Shira also reflects on the banter between two other people:

'So often she found that with Yod, when she moved into her usual behaviour with men, she was playing by herself. Whole sets of male-female behaviour did not apply. They would never struggle about clothing, what he found sexy, what she found degrading to wear or not to wear, whether she was too fat or too thin, whether she would wear her her hair one way or another. Small pleasures, small anxieties, sources of friction and seduction, all were equally stripped out of the picture.'

Shira's observation of Malkah arguing with Avram:

'Yet she did not think either of them could be described as annoyed: in fact they were having fun. They fought for the pleasure of it - part ritual, part agon, part fencing match.'

I think Shira has a very measured way of approaching her relationship with Yod as her past experiences are challenged by it.

[Michelle]

I just finished the book. I had some trouble getting into it. I found parts of the book to be disjointed in places. I too found the sex scenes to be mechanical, but the romance parts I found sweet.

I have found that Malkah is my favorite character but I didn't enjoy the majority of the chapters where she is telling the story.

This is the first in this genre I've read, so I will probably read a few more in this genre to compare it to. I'll probably go for the alt pick and work out from there.

I found lots of ideas interesting in the book, I enjoyed the snippets that revolved around cultures in other places. I thought Malkah was hilarious and wonderful. In the end I really wished Malkah had been the story because I felt Shira to be a bit washed out.

[Frakki]

Just got to chapter ten and thought I would check in here to find out what others were thinking about the book. I find it interesting but I'm not that engaged. I'm excited to meet the mom.

Anyways, stumbled across some pretty big spoilers -- my own fault -- and I'm really curious about the sex. I could see grandma making herself a bang-bot. (Just read the part where she talks about past lovers and suducing women online.)

Has anyone been in Second Life? When they describe going "into the net" -- something that wasn't public when the book came out -- it reminds me of that. Only you don't have it streaming into you brain. And, you can buy great virtual shoes.

[Frakki]

Realized what the first nine chapters of the book was missing for me -- humor. Yod has brought some, thankfully, so I'm liking the story much better.

[DarthVixReads]

I just now finished this book. I loved it but like a lot of people have mentioned it took me awhile to actually get into the book but when it picked up I was glad that I stuck with it.

I also pictured their time in the net as a sort of "second life" type experience. It also sort of reminded me of astral projection. I remember reading something about it years ago and how one who projects can undergo attacks which reminded me of what happened to Malkah. Pretty weird but that's what it reminded me of.

I was saddened by the events leading up to the end but I also feel like the ending was a bit rushed, did anyone else feel this way?

[Sandra]

I was a bit confused how Shira came from two kickass, strong, sexual free women like Malkah and Riva? First she falls in love with a narcissistic jerk, then she marries a jerk she doesn't love, and finally falls in love with a cyborg. I kinda wished Malkah had been the main character, she was awesome.

[Frakki]

Shira is a bore. I just read the first sex scene and it was so passionless. No romance, no lust, no love. I'm disappointed.

She was treating him like a sex toy. There wasn't even any sexual build up. I hoping this is just a starting point and the romance/connection builds.

I'm shocked she can still be attracted to first boyfriend. Nothing would kill my attraction to someone more than knowing they screwed a 15 year old.

[Caryn]

I agree with what many of you have said. I like the story in this book and think it deals with a lot of interesting concepts. But at 73% done it's still a struggle to read. I have to force myself to sit down with it and I feel like I'm doing homework. Some good characters, some funny moments, an interesting story... So why don't I like this book???

[Lauren]

I just finished the book and once I got into it I really just couldn't put it down. I loved it. I think having the story of Joseph, told with his perspective, gave Yod the voice he didn't have. The relationships were really just brilliantly written and I did sob for the last 30 or so pages.

[Ylva]

Caryn wrote: "Some good characters, some funny moments, an interesting story... So why don't I like this book???"

For me it was the writing style. Everything seems so analyzed and told rather with reason than passion. It gave me a bit of "cold" and "distant" feeling, even though there is a lot of emotional stuff going on between the characters. Maybe that was intended and it is done very well, because you have to read between the lines a lot. But I just don't like that kind of rational storytelling.

[Anelle]

I'm really enjoying how it is making me think and contemplate how I would perceive the situation. If I was confronted with an entirely machine cyborg that was created but had awesome adjustive programming, would I consider it something to have a relationship with? When I started the book, I was thinking more no way! Then as I read along, I started to consider it more in depth, and see how the programming has made it a sentient being, so why not? We derive comfort from so many other forms. We develop close relationships with our pets and our vibrators, so what is so different about a machine.

They explore this a lot in Star Trek, which I'm currently watching through Voyager now, with both Data and the Doctor. I'm really enjoying how the entire concept is making me think about at what point is a being its own being, and no longer owned.

[Frakki]

I love how Yod talks about the fear he has of Avram. And, that he calls him father to try and create/manipulate a bond with them. Very clever.

[Frakki]

Oh, and I'm kind of loving the house. :-D

[Gina]

Frakki wrote: "I did love how Yod talks about the fear of his maker. And that he calls him father to try and create/manipulate a sense of a bond with him. Very clever and a unique concept I thought."

I agree. Yod is proving to be an interesting character.

[Gina]

Frakki wrote: "Oh, and I'm kind of loving the house. :-D"

Yes, the house is a definite plus in the story.

[Gina]

If there's one thing I can say about this book, it is that it is unpredictable.

[Jennifer]

I really liked this. Definatly more of a hard scirnce fiction type book than what we're used to here, but that is great. Unlike a lot of people, it seems, I didn't find it at all boring or distracting when the story switched to the parts about Joseph the golum. It is obvious how the allagory is bring set up, and from the first moment it started, I knew there would be no happy ending for Yod. I knew I would be sad at the end of this story, but the journey along the way was fantastic. Yod is a wonderful character and I enjoyed his tale.

[Sayantani]

I enjoyed the book more because of the Joseph parts too. By the time I ended the book I pretty much came to loathe Shira. Perhaps the author wanted to make one of the lead characters a petulant, self obsessed, narcissistic little brat because that always helps the drama. Just look at the reality TV shows. They wouldn't work with well adjusted self respecting and level headed people in the lead would it? There would be NP conflict. But the book redeemed itself for me because of Malkah. Joseph parts just tied the whole thing together as a concept very beautifully. And I'm probably the only one here, but because of my irrational dislike of Shira, and her utter narcissistic behavior I enjoyed the 1600 parts of the story more.

[Frakki]

I've just hit the halfway mark and I'm really enjoying the story. Thanks to those posting "it gets better."

I've always been a SciFi over fantasy fan. I'm enjoying the mix of futurist world building juxtapose with the 1600s Praha. The re-envisioning of the golum story is great.

[Heather]

I'm close to halfway done with the book and I am enjoying it as well. It was touch and go for a little while there. From the beginning I found myself wanting to know would happen to the characters and, for me, that is always a reason to keep reading even if it is bit of a slog. If I could care less what happens, then I usually stop.

I adore the chapters from Malkah's perspective in first person and would absolutely read an entire book about her life. Yod is interesting as well and I enjoy the exchanges between him and Shira. Shira has yet to endear herself to me, but so far, I don't dislike her.

[Gina]

So far I do not dislike Shira, but I do find her to be one of the less interesting characters.

I was thrown when the golem story first started but now I understand the back and forth.

I like that Malkah is telling the story to Yod.

[Lauren]

I don't think I really felt one way or another about Shira, really. I think I understood her. I loved Chava though.

[Frakki]

Has anyone else noticed how much motherhood keeps coming up. I love how different they all are.

Shira is the most conventional. Nili is the good soldier, accepting her posting overseas. Chava chose to follow her scholarly dreams in place of motherhood. Riva her political goals. Neither are condemned (in the book) for finding alternative homes for their children.

Malkah seems to be a mom of three; riva, Shira and Yod. Ok, not Yod seeing as they had a thing.

Anyways, I like they lack of stereotypes in that area.

[Gina]

Frakki wrote: "Has anyone else noticed how much motherhood keeps coming up. I love how different they all are.

Shira is the most conventional. Nili is the good soldier, accepting her posting overseas. Chava chos..."

I have noticed the different mothering styles, and that they have all been treated with acceptance. Good point!

[Kim]

It really took me forever to read this book, and I often power through books in a day or two. It felt like very slow reading and I'm not sure why. But aside from the Prague bits (I would often pause to do something else when I got to them, because I wanted to know about Shira and Yod, not about Joseph, who is nice and all) I really did enjoy the story once it got underway, and the message that it tells about families and humanity is unique and powerful. There wasn't really a character I particularly disliked, other than Josh, that bastard.

Being Jewish myself (and someone becoming nervous about the revival of antisemitism) I also appreciated it because Jewish people are so rarely a presence in fiction. When the rabbis were asked if Yod could be a Jew and they went off bickering and shouting and hand-waving at each other and the narration said, "She had just made six people very happy," I thought, ahhh, the song of my people! lol