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A Tree Grows in Brooklyn
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PAST Group Reads 2018 > A Tree Grows in Brooklyn- July- SPOILER THREAD

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message 1: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
This is the SPOILER THREAD for A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, for people who have finished the book and wish for an in-depth discussion.

If you haven't finished the book, pleases on the No-Spoilers thread.


message 2: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
This book has me thinking about marriage. I left off at a point last night where Katie is realizing she can't depend on Johnny very much, and she's hardening towards him. I'm wondering how a marriage survives when one person more or less gives up on the other. She realizes she can't depend on him, so she doesn't expect more than he can give. She learns to depend on herself to take care of everything. The author says they're still very much in love, but that's hard to reconcile with the cold feeling of a hardening heart. How does a relationship like that survive?

But then I was thinking, realistically, isn't that what we are all told we have to do in a marriage? We have to accept the other person as they are (warts and all), and don't expect you can change them once you're married. We can't expect a person to do things beyond their capabilities.

What do you think?

Are there any couples who can expect more, and continually bring out the best in one another, with no nagging? I don't know if I'd feel secure in a relationship if I felt I had to be on my best behavior all the time.

I had this unrealistic idea that I would never feel lonely once I was married. I always warn engaged people about that. You need more than this one person in your life. You can't expect any other person to MAKE you happy, or to be everything you might want or need.


message 3: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
I just read "Giving the baby the Gussie" in chapter 29. I couldn't stop laughing!


Bonnie NancyJ wrote: "This book has me thinking about marriage. I left off at a point last night where Katie is realizing she can't depend on Johnny very much, and she's hardening towards him. I'm wondering how a marria..."

I agree that we do learn to live with what our spouses are and aren't - but reading this as an adult now, and volunteering as a GAL for foster children, most of whom are in need of care due to a parent or both who abuse substances/ don't work- I really think when you are a parent and your spouse is the reason your children are basically starving and unable to stay in school, it's time to give them up.


Bonnie I did not remember noticing or caring when reading this as a child that Francie was less loved by her mother than her brother Neeley. I was glad to find that they still managed to have a good and loving relationship and that Neeley didn't seem to take advantage of his preferred child position.


Linda  | 915 comments Yes, Nancy, it was a different generation. I always admired people who could be married for 40+ years for that reason. I just couldn't. I think that the realization that you had to accept someone warts and all came later, perhaps even after my own marriage (1988), and the knowledge that you have to have other friends and interests much much later (some people still don't get that).
I remember a year or so after my divorce, I took a few days off and drove up to Mackinac Island, because I had always wanted to go there. As I biked along the path that followed the water, I came to a bend in the road and realized that for the first time in a long time, I was happy by myself. I took a picture of that path and the bend in the road, and while it's not the best photo artistically, it always reminds me of that moment, the moment I realized that I could be happy by myself, and that what I need as an individual is to shake up routine, something different every now and then.
I remember being astounded when I learned as an adult that my grandmother had been briefly married to someone else, before my grandfather.


Linda  | 915 comments Bonnie wrote: "I did not remember noticing or caring when reading this as a child that Francie was less loved by her mother than her brother Neeley. I was glad to find that they still managed to have a good and l..."

It's very subtle, isn't it? I haven't finished it yet, but can see it. And I see the same thing happening with a family member; she loves her daughter, but her love for the boy is ridiculous. Thankfully, the daughter has her father to be close to. Seems to happen that way in lots of families, and is more complicated with families with more than two children.


message 8: by NancyJ, Moderator (last edited Jul 07, 2018 03:01PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Bonnie wrote: "I did not remember noticing or caring when reading this as a child that Francie was less loved by her mother than her brother Neeley. I was glad to find that they still managed to have a good and l..."

I didn't remember that at all either. I viewed the book from Francie's point of view when I was young (and I still do to a point), but it's easier to see life from the parent's point of view now. We always tease my mother that our brother (the baby of the family) was the favorite. (He got away with everything.)


Linda  | 915 comments NancyJ wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "I did not remember noticing or caring when reading this as a child that Francie was less loved by her mother than her brother Neeley. I was glad to find that they still managed to ha..."

We tried that with my mother for years. The middle child looked, talked, acted just like my dad. For years, she wouldn't admit it, even though we told her that it wouldn't hurt our feelings. Finally, when she was older, she admitted it, even though she herself knew that out of the four who could do things for her, he was the one who did the least.


message 10: by NancyJ, Moderator (last edited Jul 07, 2018 03:10PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "Yes, Nancy, it was a different generation. I always admired people who could be married for 40+ years for that reason. I just couldn't. I think that the realization that you had to accept someone w..."

That's a great moment to memorialize. The symbolism of the path and bend in the road seems really important too.

I don't think I usually appreciate those moments "in the moment." I seem to need time to recognize when I've passed through something important.

Though I remember a day when I kicked my heels in the air (with joy). It was a little awkward, because it was harder than I expected it to be, but it was memorable moment!


message 11: by NancyJ, Moderator (last edited Jul 07, 2018 03:37PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Bonnie wrote: "
I agree that we do learn to live with what our spouses are and aren't - but reading this as an adult now, and volunteering as a GAL for foster children, most of whom are in need of care due to a parent or both who abuse substances/ don't work- I really think when you are a parent and your spouse is the reason your children are basically starving and unable to stay in school, it's time to give them up.


Yes, I don't think I could have put up with a fraction of what she did. Most women in that time were totally dependent on their husband's paycheck, so they might be willing to tolerate a lot in order to feed their children. But Katie was making all the money, and Johnny was like an extra child in the family.

We just watched the movie The Glass Castle, and the mother's issues were as bad as the father's in my opinion. There were times when neither of them seemed to care if the kids were starving. The movie wasn't as powerful as the book, but it was still very good.

PS What is GAL?


message 12: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "NancyJ wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "I did not remember noticing or caring when reading this as a child that Francie was less loved by her mother than her brother Neeley. I was glad to find that they stil..."

Yeah, I'm the one taking care of my mother at 4am.


Linda  | 915 comments NancyJ wrote: "Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "Yes, Nancy, it was a different generation. I always admired people who could be married for 40+ years for that reason. I just couldn't. I think that the reali..."

Yeah, they used to get by me a lot, too. Ever since then, not always.


Linda  | 915 comments NancyJ wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "
I agree that we do learn to live with what our spouses are and aren't - but reading this as an adult now, and volunteering as a GAL for foster children, most of whom are in need of..."


GAL= Guardian ad Litem


message 15: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Bonnie wrote: "
I agree that we do learn to live with what our spouses are and aren't - but reading this as an adult now, and volunteering as a GAL for foster children, most of whom..."


I really admire that Bonnie. Good for you. That's important work. I seem to read a lot of books about orphans and foster kids, and nothing makes me cry more.


Parker | 204 comments When I first met her, my future mother-in-law admitted that the guy I was dating was her favourite. She loved all of her kids, but my husband was the eldest and the easiest. (Very responsible, helpful, unrebellious...)


Linda  | 915 comments Parker wrote: "When I first met her, my future mother-in-law admitted that the guy I was dating was her favourite. She loved all of her kids, but my husband was the eldest and the easiest. (Very responsible, help..."

oh, that can be tough to live up to. Hope she accepted you without much guff!
I just hit the part about Gussie. I was astounded to meet someone about 10 years back, through a co-worker, who would still allow her 6 year old daughter to nurse when she wanted to. Yikes.


Parker | 204 comments Fortunately, she adored me (and I her). Although she dies five years ago, I often find myself channelling her. She was very wise.

Still nursing at 6? Gah! Animals will refuse to nurse once the baby is weaned! (Although sometimes it's hard to get that fact across to the baby. Several years ago, we had a foal at the place where I worked who kept coming up to the humans trying to nurse. He was quite a pest about it until he tried it with me, and I bit him lightly on the nose. Not hard enough to hurt him, but hard enough for him to get the idea that it was a no-no. After a couple of times, he got the idea and never did it again.)


Linda  | 915 comments Parker wrote: "Fortunately, she adored me (and I her). Although she dies five years ago, I often find myself channelling her. She was very wise.

Still nursing at 6? Gah! Animals will refuse to nurse once the bab..."


Oh, great luck (though I'm sure your personality helped quite a bit!)
I remember a student lamenting that her boyfriend's mom "hated her". I asked her, "Didn't you say his mom was Italian?"(yes) "And didn't you say he's the oldest boy?"(He was the only boy). I said, "Sweetie, it has nothing to do with you, personally. As far as she's concerned, no one will ever be good enough for her boy!"


Linda  | 915 comments I just reached the bit about Katie's thoughts on the stairway at Xmas, which sparked this part of our thread......very hard to read/see. Interesting switch away from our narrator's perspective, too. Good thing the children didn't know it at the time.
I had a lump in my gut, a sense of foreboding, when the father took the neighbours' toddler out for the fishing trip with them. Was relieved when they made it home. Whew!


message 21: by NancyJ, Moderator (last edited Jul 08, 2018 10:46PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Parker wrote: "When I first met her, my future mother-in-law admitted that the guy I was dating was her favourite. She loved all of her kids, but my husband was the eldest and the easiest. (Very responsible, help..."

I remember a character in a book or movie, who told all her kids privately that they were her favorite child, with reasons for each one to make it more special (and credible). It was lovely. I think I saw something similar in death bed scenes.


message 22: by NancyJ, Moderator (last edited Jul 08, 2018 10:45PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "I just reached the bit about Katie's thoughts on the stairway at Xmas, which sparked this part of our thread......very hard to read/see. Interesting switch away from our narrator's perspective, too..."

Yes, just before I read about the boat trip there was an item on the news stating that "boating under the influence" is much worse than DUI, because the sun and the motion intensifies the drowsing effects of alcohol. So I was expected something awful. Despite all the puking, the girl seemed happy at the end, wasn't she? (I was listening, not reading). When I heard the descriptions of the green sunburned kids and smelly rotting fish, and then all the vomiting, I almost lost it too.


Linda  | 915 comments NancyJ wrote: "Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "I just reached the bit about Katie's thoughts on the stairway at Xmas, which sparked this part of our thread......very hard to read/see. Interesting switch aw..."

Yes, the mother is freaking out, but the little girl just smiles and says
"T'anks!" Anything to get away from the monotony of being in a fabulous city, but without a dime......


Linda  | 915 comments My heart broke when I saw "Northern Expedition" in her diary three days in a row.


message 25: by Linda (last edited Jul 10, 2018 07:57AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Linda  | 915 comments I was reading this in bed late last night and had a moment of nostalgia, when they're discussing making noodles.
I used to "help" my mom make ours.....she'd often use packaged noodles, but for homemade beef and noodles, she'd make her own. Except ours weren't paper thin- they were gloriously uneven, so once you put them into the broth with the beef and the onions, it would thicken the sauce, and you'd wind up with this divine, hearty stew, so the noodles were thick in some spots, it was almost like eating dumplings.
I tried recreating the experience in grad school, and they didn't turn out because I forgot the drying part. :( Eat healthier these days, and haven't tried them again. It goes on the list of "things/experiences I should have appreciated more when I was younger".


Bonnie Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "I was reading this in bed late last night and had a moment of nostalgia, when they're discussing making noodles.
I used to "help" my mom make ours.....she'd often use packaged noodles, but for home..."


our Southern, chicken pastry pastry is kind of like that. Some call them dumplings (but I think of them as round) but more like wide flat dumpling tasting noodles. And found in the freezer section of stores usually.


Linda  | 915 comments Bonnie wrote: "Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "I was reading this in bed late last night and had a moment of nostalgia, when they're discussing making noodles.
I used to "help" my mom make ours.....she'd o..."


Haha, I'm so used to traveling the perimeter of the grocery store and putting on blinders when going into the processed food aisles for, say, coffee, that I'm astounded to find out what's available. At some point, I remember telling a friend "Did you know that you can make a single-serving mug cake in the microwave!?" We both agreed it was knowledge we didn't need....
Here, it's pierogies, due to the Polish influence in nearby state.

I come from the Midwest. My grandmother used to make golden chicken gravy on Sundays, and float "homemade" (Jiffy) baking powder biscuits in it. I still dream of that, sometimes..........


message 28: by NancyJ, Moderator (last edited Jul 11, 2018 12:56PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "My heart broke when I saw "Northern Expedition" in her diary three days in a row."

Me too. "Northern Expedition meant they had no food (and maybe no heat)" It was heartbreaking but then I got mad that the mother was so proud that she wouldn't accept charity even when her kids didn't have anything to eat for 3 days! I'm all for pride and self-sufficiency, but there comes a point when you need to use the safety net that you helped to build. She was a part of the Catholic church and presumably donated what she could when she had money (or maybe she didn't donate?) Her father had physically donated his time and labor to building and carving the alter of the church. So what is wrong with accepting help from Catholic Charities when she needed it for her family.

Do you know people who are that proud?


Parker | 204 comments Nancy, don't know them personally, but a couple of years ago there was an article in our local paper about a couole who were having a really tough time and their refusal to accept help that was available.
To me, that's simply hurting your spouse and children. And it's very egotistical. But then, many people see poverty as a moral failing.


message 30: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
It reminds me of the joke about the guy stranded during a flood. He refused all help, saying that God will save him. When he died, he asked God why he didn't help him. God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

As I got closer to the end, I was worried that Francie would be offered a scholarship and her mother would make her turn it down.


Linda  | 915 comments NancyJ wrote: "Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "My heart broke when I saw "Northern Expedition" in her diary three days in a row."

Me too. "Northern Expedition meant they had no food (and maybe no heat)" I..."


Well, remember the smugness of the little girl giving away the doll and the woman who was giving it. They insisted that the person raise their hand and say "poor". Let's not forget that until 1962, the Church didn't have a policy of standing by the poor; rather, it was still often hand in hand with the wealthy class. The attitude and demeanor when giving something matter. Because when you're poor, and have nothing, your dignity, self-respect, and pride are things that you do have, and when someone gives something, not from the goodness of their heart but from a need to feel better about themselves, then people will find it unacceptable. If it's given with a true desire to help, then people are not so easily offended.


message 32: by Pam (new) - rated it 5 stars

Pam (bluegrasspam) One thing I did not notice, until the end of the book, was that the book was written without a New York dialect. When Francie goes to work in Manhattan she comments on her Brooklyn accent. I remember thinking “what accent?” since I didn’t hear her or any of the characters, with a Brooklyn accent. I was thinking of how Mark Twain wrote using a southern dialect. That would’ve been interesting if there had been some Brooklyn dialect in the dialogue.

Also, I know that the NY accent is slightly different depending on which part of NY you live in, but I didn’t realize that Brooklyn was much different than Manhattan.


message 33: by Linda (last edited Jul 11, 2018 05:59PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Linda  | 915 comments Pam wrote: "One thing I did not notice, until the end of the book, was that the book was written without a New York dialect. When Francie goes to work in Manhattan she comments on her Brooklyn accent. I rememb..."

Yes, lol. Not that I'm great at distinguishing between Brooklyn and the Bronx, but New Yorkers are. Also, they all probably sounded different from what they are today, because the immigrant groups present in each neighbourhood were more recent immigrants. Like when she talks about Mr. S.'s "Exzactle"

And she does capture the syntax differences when McShane talks (as well as the occasional word, such as "meself")


message 34: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "NancyJ wrote: "Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "My heart broke when I saw "Northern Expedition" in her diary three days in a row."

Me too. "Northern Expedition meant they had no food (and ma..."


Good points.

I didn't know that the Catholic Church was so different then.

I'm sure there are people like that today, but lately I've become cynical due to being taken advantage of someone who is happy to sponge off of others. But when I think about it, her source of pride comes from a different source.


message 35: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "Pam wrote: "One thing I did not notice, until the end of the book, was that the book was written without a New York dialect. When Francie goes to work in Manhattan she comments on her Brooklyn acce..."

You can hear some the Brooklyn accents in the audio book with Carrington MacDuffie. She doesn't give Katie or Francie an accent really, but you can hear it with many of the other characters. The accents really helped to establish a 'sense of place' for me at the beginning of the book. She also sings a little (as Johnny), which is really nice. (Kate Burton voices the Audible version, and her accents are only heard when it's clear from the text. )


message 36: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
There is one thing that saddens me about Francie and her mother - and Betty Smith I suppose. How is it that they had no girl friends or women friends? They didn't seem to even have casual friends. They told each other that they don't like or trust women. Katie had her sisters at least, and she had a friend when she as younger (but she stole Johnny from that girl).

Until the graduation, we saw very little of Francie's interactions with other students. By this time, she had a better grasp of normal language (as opposed to when she thought "begat" was the word for "get"), so was she so shy she didn't talk to anyone at all? It makes me wonder what Betty Smith's childhood was like.

The character (the object lesson) of Joanna seemed to be particularly hurt by women. Her boyfriend's mother and sisters persuaded him to dump her ("we know how devious women are, we know women, we are women.") The neighbors literally threw stones at her just for having the nerve to bring her bastard baby out in public. (Boy times have really changed.)

Betty Smith doesn't seem to have a high opinion of women. I wonder if the character of Joanna was based on her own experience, or the experience of someone close to her. She even wrote Katie as someone devious enough to plot to steal her friend's boyfriend.

I loved the character of Sissy. She was a wonderful aunt, and a loving person, even when she was "bad." (Like the hooker with the heart of gold.) She just wanted people to feel good. She tried to seduce the priest because she felt sorry for him.

Can you imagine, if she went to the hospital with her earlier pregnancies, those babies might have lived, just with the help of oxygen! It's a good thing Steve was on the ball, since no one else apparently thought of it sooner.
--
I also wondered why there was no mention of Francie's first date (going to the movies after graduation). This seems like a noteworthy experience in a girl's life, even if it was boring.


message 37: by Linda (last edited Jul 12, 2018 06:14AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Linda  | 915 comments NancyJ wrote: "Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "NancyJ wrote: "Linda Abhors the New GR Design wrote: "My heart broke when I saw "Northern Expedition" in her diary three days in a row."

Me too. "Northern Ex..."


ha! Don't I know it!
Took me a couple of years and a YouTube video to realize that she's the quintessential millenial, that one at work.

Liberation theology began (at least in Latin America) somewhere around the 1940s or the 1950s. But until Vatican II in 1962, the Church didn't officially state that its policy would be to help the poor and downtrodden. Until then, the idea was "you were born poor, and that's your lot to suffer in life, until death comes as a Mercy to relieve you of your burden." People actually took things to the priest, in the poor country areas, a chicken, some food, whatever. After Vatican II, then the Church started helping them.
And even the Church's official stance doesn't change individuals' perspective/attitudes. I too often see the idea that we'll go to certain communities/countries where the population's skin is not for the majority white, and we'll swoop in like Great White Saviours, instead of actually involving said community in the project-asking them what they need from us, instead of telling them.


message 38: by Linda (last edited Jul 12, 2018 06:24AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Linda  | 915 comments NancyJ wrote: "There is one thing that saddens me about Francie and her mother - and Betty Smith I suppose. How is it that they had no girl friends or women friends? They didn't seem to even have casual friends. ..."

I was surprised that she didn't develop further the idea that she was more popular/well-liked than she knew (both with girls, and the young man asking her out to a movie). That's kind of a big moment for an introvert, regardless of how old you are when it happens.
What I understood from Katie was that her stealing Johnny from her friend was precisely the reason that she didn't trust other women. I read it as she felt guilty about it all those years later, but even when her friend showed up at Johnny's funeral, she was still jealous of her. And that she told Francie that she couldn't trust other women because she herself wasn't to be trusted.
And sad, but true. I remember reading a book called "Why does she do that?" about not only a lack of solidarity among women in the workplace, but backstabbing and conniving. Didn't help me much in the way of survival tactics (because ultimately, you can't change the other person), but the validation felt nice.

Oh, I loved Sissy too! My father was the second youngest of 8 children, and I was born when he was 32. So most of my cousins on that side have kids my age, I never really knew them. But his younger sister, the youngest of them all, was my favorite aunt. She was the "wild child" in the family, my grandmother wound up raising her son for her, but even though I saw her infrequently, she was fabulous, and I loved her.


Bonnie Parker wrote: "Nancy, don't know them personally, but a couple of years ago there was an article in our local paper about a couole who were having a really tough time and their refusal to accept help that was ava..."

When I was student teaching (79-80) in rural NC, the teacher I was under made a point of shaming the free lunch kids. She would make comments about it not being free but paid for by taxes and such. "Luckily" this was a special education class and hopefully many of the kids didn't get her comments.


Linda  | 915 comments Bonnie wrote: "Parker wrote: "Nancy, don't know them personally, but a couple of years ago there was an article in our local paper about a couole who were having a really tough time and their refusal to accept he..."

This. And when the perpetrator is someone representing an organized religion (whether lay person or not), it's worse.


Codie | 61 comments Bonnie wrote: "NancyJ wrote: "This book has me thinking about marriage. I left off at a point last night where Katie is realizing she can't depend on Johnny very much, and she's hardening towards him. I'm wonderi..."

This is off topic but Bonnie, I just wanted to say God bless you for being a GAL. We adopted my oldest and needed a GAL during court proceedings for finalizing the adoption. And my sister-in-law and her husband also had one when they adopted from foster care.


Bonnie Thank you. My kids have been mixed, some reunified, some adopted, and some in guardianship placements with other relatives.


message 43: by NancyJ, Moderator (last edited Jul 24, 2018 06:14AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Bonnie wrote:
"When I was student teaching (79-80) in rural NC, the teacher I was under made a point of shaming the free lunch kids. She would make comments about it not being free but paid for by taxes and such. "Luckily" this was a special education class and hopefully many of the kids didn't get her comments.."


There is no reason to shame the kids. I worry that the kids did understand she was shaming them, and they took it in without knowing that it was wrong for her to say it.


message 44: by Linda (last edited Jul 21, 2018 07:35AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Linda  | 915 comments NancyJ wrote: "Bonnie wrote:
"When I was student teaching (79-80) in rural NC, the teacher I was under made a point of shaming the free lunch kids. She would make comments about it not being free but paid for by..."


Without a doubt.
Even though I never went through such an episode, I remember that there was a stigma attached. I lost my father when I was 14, and we qualified. I never took a free hot lunch. If I didn't skip lunch, I brown-bagged it. But I do remember that students somehow knew who was getting the free hot lunch and who wasn't. How they knew, I don't know.


message 45: by NancyJ, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) | 1835 comments Mod
Thanks everyone for a great discussion. This thread is moving to the 'Past Group Reads' folder, but you can still make comments.


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