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Code Name Verity
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Code Name Verity - Book Discussion Thread (Spoilers, obviously!!)
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I will readily admit that I didn't even think about the fact that Julie was trying to get herself killed by the guards. That makes that scene even MORE interesting.
OH, and I have one question. When I read the Book Discussion questions there was one that I thought was obvious - who switched the credentials? Julie had Maddie's and vice versa. I thought the obvious answer was that Julie did. Maddie wouldn't have thought in that calculating a way. Or maybe they were talking about Engel or someone ELSE switching out the credentials... but how would that have even been possible???
Good Morning, I wasn’t sure how I wanted to respond to the questions proposed or how I wanted to add in my 2 cents... but here is goes. "Thoughts on torture of spies and war criminals? It's clear that we sympathize with Queenie/Julie, but when the roles are reversed and we're dealing with terrorists, for instance, what is fair? What is too much?" I am in the Military, I have been deployed, I have seen and heard stories of torture on both sides. Them torturing us and us ... using forms of interrogation that were not approved. Obviously it’s a means to an end. No human should have to endure torture. Regardless of if its war time or not. The end.
"Beyond that, why does von Linden keep Queenie/Julie alive?" I agree with a few of the other opinions on here, she reminded him of his daughter, he had an affinity for her because they were similar in their reading choices, how much do I LOVE someone who has read the same books as I have? It’s like share a secret place.
"Was Maddie's act of love (killing her) something you could ever imagine yourself doing for someone you loved?" Yes. The alternative was so much worse. It’s a hard decision, but honestly, for me, it’s not a decision, it’s the only option.
I enjoyed the book, far more when Maddie was narrating, the military lingo was fine (though I am US Army and the girls were not) the aviation lingo really stalled the reading for me. I love a book about strong women figures and I plan to give this book to my 12 year old daughter (13 in September).
Kris, I was wondering about the credentials as well. Initially I thought Julie may have switched them and then purposely made the error about looking for cars. That action, along with not having credentials, would have almost guaranteed that she'd be picked up by the gestapo. As Julie told her story and didn't have a way out of captivity, I started to doubt the theory.Looking back now, I still wonder if my initial impression was correct. If Julie knew all along that someone needed to be on the inside to bring it down, she could have planned the whole thing before they got to France. She could have assumed that she'd be rescued and was willing to die to accomplish her mission if she wasn't.
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That makes her a much more amazing human being, in my eyes, thinking about it that way. She had a charmed life, and she could have done anything with it, but she chose to put it on the line for a cause.
I'm not sure it was Julie or her superiors. Maybe she was deliberately placed there to be the inside man (so to speak). It would explain the simple mistake--looking the wrong way while crossing the street. That was emphasized more in Julie's part of the story than Maddie's, when she was writing for von Linden's benefit.
Kris wrote: "Given how she wrote her part of the story, Erica, I think your initial impression may have been correct - that she went into the mission with the intention of getting captured and was willing to di..."That is a really interesting idea, Erica. I think I want to reread the book with that possibility in mind.
Meanwhile, I have a preliminary report from my 13-year-old niece, the one who read it for a mother-daughter book club: "I really didn't like it."
We have another week of vacation together for me to try to get her to elaborate. My sister, her mom, also thought it was a bad choice for seventh graders, what with all the torture. But I still think I'd give it to some of my eighth-grade students.
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My 15 year old son read it at my behest and it got an "it was okay." Maybe it really is not YA. I don't think the violence is too much for a 7th grader, but I let my son read most anything he wants -- in 9th grade he read A Clockwork Orange and is currently reading Fight Club. So yeah, I might not have the same barometer as a typical parent
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"Thoughts on torture of spies and war criminals? It's clear..."
Mandy, your first question is really interesting. I am far more interested in your thoughts than anyone should be in mine since these questions have not been hypothetical for you. Nonetheless, I will weigh in. To me there is no justification for torture. End of story. Beyond the moral and ethical issues, torture does not yield reliable information. I won't get too political here, but I have to mention that the Cheney syllogism that being against torture means you are un-American and favor putting Americans at risk is bull crap. I think the book addressed your question in Maddie's portion, and I feel confident the author would agree with you. As for what constitutes torture, that is greyer for sure.
I was certain the credentials-switch was just a mistake? It never even occurred to me that one or other of them would have done it on purpose. Are there hints that Julie (it would have to be Julie) did it deliberately? I didn't consider that she'd planned to be on the inside, as the building plans she looked up in the town hall gave her the layout info they would have needed... Getting that information was her part of the mission, the rest of the circuit would then have carried out the actual attack. I'm still inclined to think the credentials switch and Julie's capture were accidents and she then did what she could to complete the mission from inside, but pleases educate me if I have missed something obvious!
Louise wrote: "I was certain the credentials-switch was just a mistake? It never even occurred to me that one or other of them would have done it on purpose.Agreed, I didn't see that at all. I just assumed that they had accidentally been switched somehow, either in packing or when Julie was forced to jump and she grabbed the wrong one. On p. 8 (of my version) Julie identifies her as Maddie Brodatt and says, "You have her ID, you know her name." I don't think Julie would have purposely taken Maddie's real ID card, especially knowing that if Maddie survived landing the plane she would be stranded in enemy territory without identification, let alone any French to help her get by. Is there some other passage that points to the switch being part of the plan?
Despite the fact that this is the single most exciting book I have read all year, I can see how it would be less so to younger YA readers. You have to have some sort of understanding of what the Nazis really did, and what torture consists of (which I hope few 13 year olds have) to understand the stakes in this novel, plus all the action for the first half of the book occurs in past tense as part of a separate narrative. Also, what does that narrative lead up to? Jumping out of a plane, and the crash itself isn't a major part of the story. So I can understand how younger YA readers might be . . . underwhelmed by this book.
Amy, you've hit the nail on the head - Julie would never have put Maddie in danger by taking her ID. If Julie had wanted to get captured, she could have simply gone without any ID at all, thus ensuring her imprisonment but not endangering Maddie's safety. It must have been a mistake in the rush to get out of the plane, or when everything was being thrown around during the flight. On my next re-read I will be watching for more clues on this topic, though!
Re. the YA question- maybe it depends on how you sell it to them? Maybe they would appreciate it more if they knew, going in, that it's not a book about wartime battles and it's not about a plane crash - it's a story of friendship and bravery, of sacrifice and fighting in ways other than on the front line. And, for young girls, it's a story of two awesome and inspiring women, kicking ass in roles that, in their time, were usually the preserve of men. Someone upthread also wondered whether kids of that age would have enough awareness of WWII and the Nazis - I first read Anne Frank around age 11, as did my sisters and most of my friends and classmates. Maybe it's not so widely read by kids today, though. Also, I don't know where you guys all are or what your school systems are like, but here in Scotland and I assume the rest the UK, our high schools do a lot of study of both world wars around the 13-15 age group. This would be a great companion novel for that kind of learning. Your 7th/8th graders would be a bit younger than that though, right?
Louise, I read Anne Frank around the same time, but again, I don't consider that book to be about war in terms of battlefields and such; the war is important in that it is defining where and how Anne grows up (and ultimately dies), but to me it's more about being confined to a tiny space with your entire family as a teenager when all you want is to start establishing your own identity. The war around her is a backdrop, and the story becomes more vivid when the reader knows more and better than Anne what is happening in the outside world, but ultimately it's a story about the effect war has on people. Same thing with Code Name Verity; in addition to causing their friendship, the war made Maddie and Julie into who they were, and gave them opportunities and challenges that they never would have faced otherwise.I guess I still struggle with the YA classification, because I don't feel like this is a "coming of age" novel in the same vein as Anne Frank or Catcher in the Rye. Maddie and Julie are young, but I don't think they're teenagers, and if they are they are 18 or 19, an age when they could well have been married and, to use the term of the times, fought on the home front instead. They change throughout the book, but war changes everyone, and most novels show some type of character growth or development. The vocabulary doesn't seem overly simplified to me, and the fact that they include lots of jargon, acronyms, and some bits of French means that you have to be pretty comfortable with inferring from context to get the most out of this book. My guess is that they call it YA because it doesn't fit quite comfortably anywhere else.
Upon re-skimming the book, I'm struck by how Julie was able to maintain her "role" (for lack of a better word) of treasonous collaborator when all of her fellow prisoners despised her for it. That psychological burden of being hated by your own side must have been immensely difficult to bear, especially in the face of torture and death. Julie must have been very confident that she could not only pull off the acting, but still lend some support to the resistance by her actions, even if there was no guarantee that they would ever understand what she did. I'm a people-pleaser by nature, and it would have been extremely hard for me to even let people think I had let them down, especially when the stakes are this high.
My speculation about the ID switch was purely based on my reaction to the book. That being said, my favorite genre is murder mysteries, and I trust my instinct when I read them. It's a rare mystery that surprises me about the identity of the murderer. (I'd love recommendations if anyone has them) Also, it's been a long time (2 decades?) since I engaged in reading books for critical discussion, so I fallen into simple reading habits and didn't keep any notes.I can't point to any specific passage, since I've returned the book to the library, but I'll go with what I remember.
It seemed so out of character for Julie to be caught looking the wrong way crossing the street. That detail is the first thing that triggered the idea for me. Given the discussion here, it is possible that it was just an innocent mistake.
Maddie is SO sure they were careful about making sure each of them had the correct ID during her part of story. For me, that ruled out the switch being Maddie's idea.
Addressing the idea that Julie wouldn't have put Maddie's life in danger by taking her papers, is one I don't agree with. There was a mention about Maddie's last name being identifiable as Jewish. If Maddie crashed with her own papers and was stopped by the gestapo, her papers wouldn't save her. An English jew caught crashing a plane into Nazi occupied France would be issued a death sentence. Julie knew that.
Maybe it wasn't about the mission, but about Julie saving her friend's life.
So much to read... so many excellent comments and insights and family histories... I have now completely forgotten anything I was going to add. Except for this (since it pinged me in the very beginning):
I too was shocked when Maddie shot Julie - of course I was hoping for a happy ending. But upon rereading, everything, all the clues, so expertly fell into place, and it was amazing how much I missed the first read ... (I'm not so good with the gun on the mantelpiece in Act I sort of thing). Specifically when they discuss Maddie's last fear - failing to live up to expectations, which could include killing someone, and Maddie says, "You'd have to live with that selfishness afterward, if you couldn't make yourself do it. Yes, I'm dead afraid of that."
So, yeah, when I reread it, and got to that part and the clues continued to fall into place, I realized that the book was definitely going to end the same.damn. way.
On the personal note about dementia and losing your mind and body -- Kris, I think about it too! I lost my grandmother, who had severe Alzheimers, a month ago - trapped in her mind, she was a child looking for her parents, a 90-year-old woman whose adulthood, including her 60+year marriage, had simply evaporated. My other grandmother (who died 15 years ago) had been paralyzed from the neck down and unable to speak after a stroke and fall, and perfectly sound in mind. And while I wouldn't wish either on anybody, I think the latter is by far worse.
As Bonnie said: "Dementia is horrible for the families, but once past the point of no return it is perfectly fine for the demented." At that point - we just make them comfortable, and we deal with our anguish on our own.
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A California school district recently asked 8th grade students to write an essay supporting the position the Holocaust never occurred. It turned out that a sizeable percentage of the students who wrote the required papers did not in fact believe the Holocaust had occurred, or that it was greatly exaggerated. I am floored that there are 12 and 13 year olds who are not fully steeped in information about the Holocaust. I remember learning in 3rd grade that they boiled Jews to make soap and used their skin as lampshades. Was it upsetting? Of course. That is the point. This modern movement to keep kids away from traumatic facts is doing nothing but creating bad people with no sense of empathy or healthy outrage. Screed over. (FWIW I am the parent of a teen and have always been a room parent, a team parent, and I am close with a lot with my child's friends and my friends' children, male and female.)
My son's reaction to the book may have just been because he is a boy, so the beauty of the women's friendship may not have resonated with him as it does with most of us. It is funny that when I reviewed this book I mentioned that it was the exception to my general lack of interest in YA. I find most YA rings hollow for me even though I know I would have loved many of the books when I was a teen. Maybe the reason it was an exception is that it is not really written like YA. I am wondering what the YA readers think. I am reading another book now that is sometimes called YA (The Age of Miracles) and once again I don't understand the categorization. I think they call anything written from the perspective of anyone under 30 YA or New Adult these days.
I've read quite a bit of YA, and Code Name Verity didn't really feel like YA, in my opinion. To me the defining characteristic of all those novels is that the main protagonists are all mid-to-late teens, ie young adults, hence the name! Regardless of genre or plot or tropes or writing style or anything else, that is the one constant. And of course there's the self-discovery etc that naturally go along with being at that age, right on the verge of adulthood. I feel like Maddie and Julie, though, are already fully-fledged adults when we meet them? They're not really discovering who they are or how they fit into the world around them - they already know that. I don't think we are explicitly told their ages at any point (correct me if I'm wrong!), but I got the feeling they met at around 18 or 19, then a few years pass during which they are separated but remain close and in touch, meeting occasionally, so by the time they make their fateful flight to France they would have been early 20s. That's just my reading of it, though, I may be way off.
Also, for those who may be interested, this book's sort-of sequel Rose Under Fire deals a lot more directly with the the Holocaust, or at least one person's experience of it - it's the story of Rose's time in a concentration camp. It also reads a lot more like YA than Code Name Verity, as Rose is only 16, and it shows!
I just finished the book last night and have lots of interesting comments to read here to catch up!For now I'll just add that I loved it, it was recommended to me by a girl in my year 8 class.
I had a feeling Maddie was going to be alive but as a result I think I was hoping for a happy Hollywood ending where they rescued Julie. Instead I was incredibly shocked by the shooting. However I admired Wren for committing to that and it completely drew me in more.
Will definitely be getting Rose under fire!
Jumping in to discuss the book first and then get to all the other commentary.Regarding Maddie's family: on page 275 in my book, the part where Maddie gets Julie's scarf from Engel, there is a mention of Maddie recalling how silk reminds her of the time her grandmother opened her father's tie drawer to empty it out. Maddie states she was so young when her dad died and the smell and feel of the silk was one of the last memories of him.
To the age question: Upon rereading the first chapter, Julie recounts her journey on the Superb with Beryl and states her dad gave it to her when she was 16, but that she's had it now for 5 years (at the time when Maddie meets Dympna). That makes Maddie 21. She then takes a year to learn to fly...21. And then is thrown into all sorts of other training as she becomes part of the WAAP (I think those are the correct order of initials). Is it a year or so before she and Julie meet? I don't know. But that does take them to OVER-21 category.
Now: for all the other wonderful open sharing here. I think a book like this, about friendship and tragedy, is a natural gateway to us sharing more personal stories. We illustrate our understanding of the story with our own stories, because for the vast majority of us, it's as close as we get to dealing with such a major decision such a death by assistance (giving dignity to death, death in any manner). It helps us form our own safe place to talk about what this means to us, how it changes/shapes us. It's our safety zone. And I'm all for that.
Up for vote, mayhaps, to have a separate discussion thread for those of us facing tough times or with sticky situations to gather about our Internet round table and talk over virtual tea and coffee? Or do we let the discussions continue as an organic part of our book discussions? KRIS! This might be where you come in!!
Honestly, I appreciate all of you speaking so freely here. We are sooooo not alone. It's good to know that sometimes. Yes, we may be separated by miles, but technology allows us an opportunity to share when we're feeling delicate and breakable.
Each of the stories you've shared here now reside in my heart, become part of my prayers, and good vibes are sent out to you. Thank you for entrusting us with your stories. THANK YOU!
Now, gentle hugs all around.
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Regarding Maddie's family: on page 275 in my book, the part where Maddie gets Julie's scarf from Engel, there is a me..."
I love your thoughtful post Joanie! I for one would rather see the personal talk stay in the thread. In my IRL book club (and in the two others I was in in the past) conversations often get really personal, and that seems just part of talking about reading, whether talking online or on a couch. That said, I am good with whatever others think.
I am wondering if anyone would like to pick another book for perhaps October discussion? This was such a great discussion, it would be great to make it a regular thing.
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I would always encourage personal sharing on a book discussion thread because, to me, that's how we know that we're really absorbing the stories we're reading.
Thanks to everyone who has participated, and to those that lurked, as well. Hopefully, this has been enjoyable and enriching!!
NOW, what do we want to read next? I will start a new thread!!
I love how books open the door to allow us to speak freely. Too often, we feel so alone, but sometimes all it takes is one word to give us the freedom to say something.I was thinking about how Maddie and Julie had the war to bring them together. What do we have today? In this instance, we have the Internet. For each of us, we fight our own battles DAILY. We're living in a world where we rush and hurry and do everything as fast as we can because there's so much to do. How many of us have time to actually sit down with a friend and take a deep breath? Or how many of us are able to even get to that friend? Whether it's geographically impossible to spend time with our friends or there's some reason you're unable to leave the house, we don't always get to be with those who make our lives more bearable. Thank God for the internet and for finding new friends in interesting places.
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Arcadia
City of Thieves
The Round House
A Constellation of Vital Phenomena
Cutting for Stone
We Are All Completely Beside Ourselves
City Of Thieves gets my vote, it's coming up on my to-read list anyway! But I'm cool with whatever you guys think, I'm just looking forward to another round of discussion and sharing. This has been wonderful x
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http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/wash...
It even LOOKS like Queenie!!! How incredible is that?!?!?!
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http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/wash......"
That is amazing. How did your friend even find this? I love that she has such an interesting life.
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She sounds amazing! What a woman.
This https://www.the-pool.com/people/women... is really interesting for the Code Name Verity fans - on the women of the Air Transport Auxiliary.
Go Fug Yourself Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Arcadia (other topics)City of Thieves (other topics)
The Round House (other topics)
A Constellation of Vital Phenomena (other topics)
Cutting for Stone (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Elizabeth Wein (other topics)Elizabeth Wein (other topics)
Louise, I agree with others that your entire comment was excellent, but this section just showed me something completely new about this book- it never occurred to me that Julie was TRYING to get herself killed by the guards. At first it made no sense, but after I thought about it awhile I couldn't believe I missed it. She couldn't run because she was bound, and she easily would have preferred being shot to heading off for more torture. No wonder she asked for what she did.
In reference to the wider conversation, it reminds me of one of my favorite C.S. Lewis quotes, "We read to know that we are not alone." Thanks to everyone for sharing, your stories and experiences have enriched this discussion for me.