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Wuthering Heights
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Wuthering Heights - Week 2 -- Chapters VIII - XII
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Charlotte wrote: "Perhaps I am reading too much into the story, but I sense that every time Heathcliff faces Isabella, he thinks about Catherine and is bitter that it isn’t she who is his wife and that makes him even more evil."Perhaps...
I would prefer to think that through Isabelle, Heathcliff wants to hurt Edgar who "took" him "his Cathy"...?
Cindy wrote: " We saw this on Downton Abbey (if you watched it)! ..."No I didn't! But maybe I should try to watch this... movie? Series? I don't know, because everyone seems to have seen it but me!
Charlotte wrote: "Cindy wrote: I think Heathcliff despises Isabella for multiple reasons. One, she is Edgar's sister and therefore closely related to his enemy. Two, she is a well-brought-up young lady. He loves Cat..."That makes a lot of sense. Heathcliff definitely hates Edgar’s family but I think any woman who isn’t Catherine would probably tick him off. And in this case it’s a double whammy because he’s using her to get to Edgar and to inherit the family property at some point or money.
Nina wrote: "Sherry wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "To me, Nelly seems like an instrument for the narration, but I think her sympathies move back and forth and I think it is difficult to understand ..."Right. I felt sorry for them when they were children but they are adults now. It’s up to them to be mature and accept what life is now. The adults in this story so far are very childish.
Charlotte wrote: "To me, Nelly seems like an instrument for the narration, but I think her sympathies move back and forth and I think it is difficult to understand whether she likes or dislikes Catherine and Heathcl..."Charlotte: I've been thinking about why Bronte wanted to have so much of the story come from the perspective of Nelly (the servant - who while literate and having grown up with all the principal characters, is still considered inferior). Nelly's own prejudices are freely admitted by her, like her dislike of Catherine's wildness and capriciousness and she's not above playing her "betters" off each other. But why?
One idea I toyed with was that maybe Bronte thought about two people having this kind of totally uncultivated, wild, naturalistic relationship with one another - truly elemental, two souls merged above all cultural roles of who they should be or how they should act. If two such people existed, how could they "be" in society? I mean on the one hand, Catherine IS terrible, but she's also, as Heathcliff sees her, very much like the wind or the weather, a force of nature, as is he. Maybe Bronte was really entranced with this idea but realized how such people couldn't really BE in polite society - so she needed some narrator who explicitly framed them that way, but who couldn't totally put them down because of her own social inferiority. I don't know, just something I was thinking about.
Gabrielle, I've not seen Downton Abbey either. I've finished reading this, but I haven't rated it as I'm thinking about the story, I'm wondering if the surface dynamics are more complex than they seem because of how Bronte has structured WH ???
So, Anastasia, I think you might have something there.
Mod
Great point! Nelly has prejudices and her own likes and dislikes, but she is, for the most part, a sensible, logical person. Framing this passionate relationship, the collision of these two "forces of nature" from her more prosaic viewpoint only enhances the wildness and almost unearthliness of their devotion to each other. I can't imagine having the story told from their perspectives--it might be like being sucked up into a tornado!! :)
Inkspill wrote: "Gabrielle, I've not seen Downton Abbey either."Let's start a new group:
"Those who haven't seen Downtown Abbey"! :)
Sherry wrote: "they were children but they are adults now. It’s up to them to be mature and accept what life is now. The adults in this story so far are very childish."Yes, they're adults now. But none of them had a kind, peaceful, lighted childhood, some of them even had a traumatic childhood. One does not become wise, understanding towards others and above all towards oneself, suddenly, when one is 18 or 21 years old. It sometimes take years before understanding one's own childhood, one's own story, sometimes one needs help to do this; some adults adults don't even realize they need help, some don't want to see it.
So in the time of Brontë, who could have psychologically helped the characters?
Gabrielle wrote: "Sherry wrote: "they were children but they are adults now. It’s up to them to be mature and accept what life is now. The adults in this story so far are very childish."Yes, they're adults now. Bu..."
Yes. Good point. Living in isolation with no clue of how decent families treat each other. The hatred in the family is deeply rooted too.
Gabrielle wrote: "Sherry wrote: "they were children but they are adults now. It’s up to them to be mature and accept what life is now. The adults in this story so far are very childish."Yes, they're adults now. Bu..."
Like button!! :)
Mod
Let's start a new group:
"Those who haven't seen Downtown Abbey"! :)"
Sorry! I only used Dowton Abbey because it is such an excellent example of my point. The show gives you the perspective of the Earl and his family, as well as the servants who take care of them. They form relationships and become involved in each other's lives--it's inevitable, living in the same house.
Cindy wrote: " don't know how much was about escaping Edgar because it seems like they have a loving relationship (until Heathcliff happens, that is)."Wow, there is so much to talk about in this book it is hard to know where to begin! I'm starting with your comment as it is one of the most recent (as in two weeks ago!). If you remember from one of the rare parts of narration we get from Heathcliff (though always have to remember via Nelly's retelling and Lockwood's narrative) when he comes back after Cathy has been taken in by the Lintons, he talks about how looking through the window they were astonished by the fact Edgar and Isabella were fighting over a puppy dog, hurting it and pulling it apart between them. Heathcliff contrasts it with how happy Cathy and Heathcliff would be in such a place and wouldn't argue about anything.
I think this is a key scene as it shows that the well mannered children in private are petty, don't share, and maybe behind the polish as potentially violent as the occupants of Wuthering Heights. When they think there are intruders they immediately set the dogs out, which results in a young girl being bitten.
Also in this scene on a sidenote we see that the Lintons despise Heathcliff as something lower than them and he responds by cursing because that is what they expect from him rather than necessarily what he feels. It is an interesting insight into Heathcliff's character, that he isn't going to waste effort convincing people to be his friend when they are prejudice against him, maybe Cathy is the only one he is his true self with? Which psychologically makes sense for an abused and neglected child who would be slow to trust, build defensive barriers, and lash out in protection.
Back to Isabella and Edgar though, I think Edgar is as selfish as any of them at this point. In their small household, he seems to be focused on his own love for Cathy but is ignorant of Isabella's emotions and shows no interest in her needs leading her to become fascinated with an incredibly unsuitable man. When she leaves he cuts her off, which I think is a symbol of how the women belong to the men, now she is married she is not his responsibility and he has no right, and importantly no passionate drive, to interfere in her bad marriage.
I could write so much more! But I'll try and leave it for now before I start falling into essay territory.
Mod
LOL! I had forgotten about the tug-of-war over the puppy! Despite their scrapping as children, I do think Edgar loves Isabella. He tried to protect her from Heathcliff, but he went about it all wrong. The last thing you want to do with a teenage girl is to forbid her to see her crush! That makes him even more desirable!!
I think Edgar was in the honeymoon phase of his marriage. He and Catherine had been married for less than a year. Isabella was still very young, only about seventeen or eighteen, I believe. I have no idea what Edgar would have done had things turned out differently, but I believe that, after things had settled down with Catherine, it would have been consistent with his character for him to turn his attention to getting his sister suitably situated. There were probably neighboring towns that would have held assembly balls at which Isabella could have mingled with local gentry; there was also always London if he wanted to give her the biggest variety of choices possible. I don't thnk he would have watched her dwindle into an old maid without taking some steps to try to get her married off.
I think that when he cuts her off upon her marriage, it is a decision made from anger and hurt feelings. He and Heathcliff obviously hate each other and it hurts him that not only did Isabella make such a mesalliance, but she chose his enemy over him. Had Isabella made the choice to see Edgar when she stopped at the Grange after fleeing Heathcliff, who knows what might have happened? I think it is highly possible that Edgar would have forgiven her at that point. He certainly has every intention of doing his best by her child, but once again, is prevented by Heathcliff.
Anastasia wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "To me, Nelly seems like an instrument for the narration, but I think her sympathies move back and forth and I think it is difficult to understand whether she likes or dislikes Cat..."Wow! This never occurred to me! Your insight to Wuthering Heights has changed my perspective.
Cindy wrote: "LOL! I had forgotten about the tug-of-war over the puppy! Despite their scrapping as children, I do think Edgar loves Isabella. He tried to protect her from Heathcliff, but he went about it all wrong. The last thing you want to do with a teenage girl is to forbid her to see her crush! That makes him even more desirable!! "
I think his love for his sister is based more on propriety and what is expected, than the emotions going wild we see from the WH folk. As a brother he definitely scores more brownie points then Hindley but that is a very low bar! Both brothers leave their sisters to make unsuitable marriages for their personalities, with Hindley being happy and encouraging it.
Hindley also knew from personal experience how dangerous marriage could be for young women, with childbirth being traumatic and often ending in fatalities for mother or child.
There is obviously a lot about family life and gender politics if you want to look for it.
Mod
I agree. I think Edgar cares for Isabella, but it is definitely not a passionate devotion! At least he made the effort to prevent the disaster, but could not overcome her determination to ruin herself. You can't really blame Hindley for encouraging Catherine's marriage to Edgar: marriages among the landed gentry were sometimes based more on practicality than emotion. Even had Hindley liked Heathcliff, marrying his sister to her would have been a pretty big step down for her. Edgar is a good match for her socially, and knowing her temperament, I think everyone hoped that instead of driving Edgar crazy, Edgar would be a good influence on her. She always seemed to rise above herself in the company of the Lintons, and her marriage was apparently happy--until Heathcliff showed up again. I'm sure that even if he hadn't appeared, she would have shown her wild side at some point, but without the provocation of his presence, she might have kept it under control more.
Hindley also knew from personal experience how dangerous marriage could be for young women, with childbirth being traumatic and often ending in fatalities for mother or child.
You are so right about gender politics. Unfortunately, there were little other options for a young woman of Isabella's position at that time. Spinsters were looked down on and pitied. Staying single meant living with relatives such as parents or brothers, and sisters-in-law could sometimes dislike the idea of another woman permanently underfoot. Spinsters often ended up as unpaid nannies for their nieces and nephews, with everyone assuming they were available when help is needed nursing sick relatives and helping out with other special occasions that required extra work on the family. Many women would rather marry a man they didn't love but whom would provide them with the necessities of life and a decent social position to escape the stigma of being an old maid. It must have been a terrible thing to live back then--every pregnancy could potentially be the death of you!
Cindy wrote: " You can't really blame Hindley for encouraging Catherine's marriage to Edgar: marriages among the landed gentry were sometimes based more on practicality than emotion."No, Hindley would be matching in with society in thinking Cathy had made a good match, especially seeing her wildness and if it took her away from a bad influence in Heathcliff that'd be viewed as an incredible bonus too, he'd be seen as acting in both his sister's and the family as a whole's interests.
But I wonder if Bronte is consciously critiquing how society works for young women. Cathy and Isabella are both teenagers who end up reliant on their brothers. At the important stage where they may be expected to get married there is no maternal (or even wiser older paternal figure) to guide them. As you mention in a previous post given time Edgar probably would have gone about finding a suitable match for Isabella, but the key point is that when she needs him, he can't emotionally protect her.
There are so many subtleties that add to the complexity of the narrative and characters too.
Cathy who is generally selfish and willful is the one who marries in a way that pleases her brother. Isabella who is generally passive and obedient runs away from her brother's protection. Then there is the strange point where Heathcliff half kills her dog and she still decides to continue with the elopement, what must have been going through her mind?!
Narratively I think the dog refers back to when Heathcliff and Cathy are spying and see Edgar and Isabella fighting over the puppy too, which is when Heathcliff loses Cathy, so indicates to the reader that this is going to be a relationship of violence and revenge...if more indication is needed than just straight dogicide before they're even married!
Interestingly Cathy acts in a sisterly way and openly tells Isabella what Heathcliff is like, remembering back to being a teenager telling your girl pal that the man she is crushing on is no good generally just ruins a friendship rather than helps her out, but I feel Cathy is speaking in Isabella's interests rather than any jealousy. She has nothing to be jealous of because she knows Heathcliff loves only her.
There is very little friendship I think in this novel so far, Cathy and Heathcliff as children I believe are friends but we do not see much of it past Cathy's diary read by Lockwood; Cathy and Heathcliff seem to trust and confide in Nelly, though she doesn't appear to like them much; Nelly has a fondness for Hindley, and remembers being his foster sister, but we see none of that affection returned.
Even though the novel is remembered I think for its passion, I think loneliness and isolation are a much larger part of it. From Lockwood pretending he wants solitude, to Heathcliff found alone on the streets, through all the death and people left in grief, parentless, widowed and trying to struggle in life without any support and left to stumble about making awful mistakes and self destructing.
Clari wrote: "Cindy wrote: " don't know how much was about escaping Edgar because it seems like they have a loving relationship (until Heathcliff happens, that is)."Wow, there is so much to talk about in this ..."
So true! I think even for maybe half of the 20th century, women were just chattel, movable property. You can still see this in movies and sitcoms from the 50s. Men ruled and women could be disobedient. Probably resulting in having allowances cut like children. But they were frail and fainted a lot. Actually, Catherine became physically ill every time she was upset.
Clari wrote: "Cindy wrote: " You can't really blame Hindley for encouraging Catherine's marriage to Edgar: marriages among the landed gentry were sometimes based more on practicality than emotion."No, Hindley ..."
Wow so true! It’s definitely a story of tragedy and isolation with a whole group of people making mistakes and as you say, self destructing. So why do I love this book so much? It’s Emily Bronte. She wrote these characters so well the the book cannot be put down until finished!
Mod
Very true! I have seen it mentioned several times in critical articles that the moors themselves are considered a character by some because the isolation of the setting is such a critical part of the events in the novel. I think that when people hear the word "passion" they automatically assume it means romantic passion. Much more pertinent to the story is Heathcliff's passionate hatred for those who wronged him and kept Catherine and him apart. Heathcliff also has a passion for revenge, and his revenge plot dictates many of the events that transpire. Heathcliff's romantic passion for Catherine takes a backseat to these other passions after her death.
Cindy wrote: "Clari wrote: "Even though the novel is remembered I think for its passion, I think loneliness and isolation are a much larger part of it. From Lockwood pretending he wants solitude, to Heathcliff f..."Passion for me isn't light romance, it's got more to do with blood and body than with love and heart.
I agree with you about passion, Gabrielle
Cindy wrote: "Clari wrote: "Even though the novel is remembered I think for its passion, I think loneliness and isolation are a much larger part of it. From Lockwood pretending he wants solitude, to Heathcliff f..."Yes the moors are a character in themselves so true! I agree that Heathcliff’s passions are not about love. I think some of his obsession with Catherine has to do with the fact that she chose Linton over him. He can’t possess her. If it was about love, he would wish her well and let her live her life without trying to ruin her marriage. Catherine is very fickle. I don’t think they would have been happy together. He would try to control her but she can’t be controlled.(sorry I wandered lol)
Mod
My point is that passion is not limited to love. Passion is an intense emotion, so it also applies just as much to hatred or rage as love. This is a novel of passion, just not so much the romantic kind!
Now I have another opposite view about Heathcliff and Catherine. I think it might have worked because they have known each other forever and they’re kindred spirits. They probably finished each other’s sentences. I guess it could go either way. Either too much heat to last or a settling in the knowledge that they always had each other growing up in a tumultuous household. They were both self centered but yet they understood each other. I contradicted myself lol! I actually think it could go either way
Sherry wrote: "Now I have another opposite view about Heathcliff and Catherine. I think it might have worked because they have known each other forever and they’re kindred spirits. They probably finished each oth..."My personal view from my heart is that they would have been content together. The things Cathy says about him:
'he's more myself than I am. Whatever our souls are made of, his and mine are the same.'
My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath: a source of little visible delight, but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being. So don't talk of our separation again: it is impracticable.
And early on Nelly is already judging them when they are still children:
'She was much too fond of Heathcliff. The greatest punishment we could invent for her was to keep her separate from him: yet she got chided more than any of us on his account.'
So I see Catherine, who is presented through Nelly as selfish and vain, acting in an unselfish manner, she's willing to be punished and hurt as long as she gets to be with her friend, because the only punishment that scares her is not being with him. But these moments are only glimpsed and have to be read very carefully to see through the bias and think these are two young children who've found a companion within an abusive household that they care for more than their own safety.
If the novel had included more of their diaries, or been told third person, we would have witnessed them more as children running about together, meeting clandestinely, trying to avoid Hindley's violence, having each other to protect themselves from loneliness and then we would have seen them grow up and been struck by the cruelty of Catherine having to decide between the person who is her one true friend and the man that she believes will be able to keep both her and Heathcliff safe if she marries him.
Instead we have a narrative deliberately with lots of holes in it that challenges us to interpret and fill in the missing pieces as we will.
Mod
I agree! All of the text evidence you gave supports the idea that they belong together. The problem is that when Cathy is confronted with this choice, Heathcliff is a laborer in her brother's fields and Edgar is a young gentleman of fortune. She loves Heathcliff, but if she chooses him, where will they go? How will they live? He doesn't leave to make his own fortune until she rejects him. If she had rejected Edgar before Heathcliff leaves, he might not have done it. Once he does, she could have waited for him, but she has no reason to believe he will ever return. Once he does come back, he is a much more eligible candidate for her hand, but she is already married. A chain of tragic timing!
I do think they would have been happy, but it would have been a tempestuous union. Catherine could be as cruelly capricious to Heathcliff as she could to everyone else, and he was brutally honest with her.
Brittany wrote: "I agree with you about passion, Gabrielle"Thanks, Brittany.
Cindy wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Passion for me isn't light romance, it's got more to do with blood and body than with love and heart. ..."My point is that passion is not limited to love. Passion is an intense ..."
Absolutely.
Sherry wrote: "Amen to that!"😊
Sherry wrote: "They probably finished each other’s sentences..."If they started some! They're not very talkative in WH! :)
Clari wrote: "Sherry wrote: "Now I have another opposite view about Heathcliff and Catherine. I think it might have worked because they have known each other forever and they’re kindred spirits. They probably fi..."Like button!
Cindy wrote: "Clari wrote: "My personal view from my heart is that they would have been content together...."I agree! All of the text evidence you gave supports the idea that they belong together. The problem ..."
Young Cathy is much stronger, she chose to help Hareton and finally loved him.
There was an episode on the Andy Griffith show with a couple who screamed at each other and threw things. They were nice to everyone but each other. Andy trained them to be polite to each other and then they were mean to everyone else. Andy figured out that the volatile relationship made them happy. Maybe this would be Heathcliff and Catherine LOL!!
Mod
Mod
Kerstin wrote: "I am not trying to over-interpret at this point. Yet what I am noticing is that the word "devil" appears quite frequently. It adds to the dark mood and the selfish, abusive, even at times snarling ..."I have often wondered who the Brontes knew. I’ve only read Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre but both books show some interesting behaviors in their characters to say the least.
Sherry, KerstinThat's how we recognize great authors: they give us material to think again and again, do they?
So true Gabrielle! I wish Emily Bronte could have lived to do more!
Sherry wrote: "So true Gabrielle! I wish Emily Bronte could have lived to do more!"Hum? What would she have written then?
A book about about loneliness, then a book about inner peace finally found? What do you think?
It’s hard to speculate. I wonder how much is based on people she knew and how much comes from imagination. The religious people are pretty harsh in this story. I wonder what her father was like? Her sister Charlotte had some complex and some mean people in Jane Eyre. Two books are not enough to try to figure the Brontes out I’m sure. We will never know what their life was actually like but I can’t help but wonder. I bet life in the moors was actually very lonely. Maybe marriages weren’t as loving as we’d like to think they should be. They probably had to learn to settle and learn inner peace to survive. Hard to say, I’m rambling lol
Mod
"We came to the chapel. I have passed it really in my walks, twice or thrice; it lies in a hollow, between two hills: an elevated hollow, near a swamp, whose peaty moisture is said to answer all the purposes of embalming on the few corpses deposited there. The roof has been kept whole hitherto; but as the clergyman’s stipend is only twenty pounds per annum, and a house with two rooms, threatening speedily to determine into one, no clergyman will undertake the duties of pastor: especially as it is currently reported that his flock would rather let him starve than increase the living by one penny from their own pockets."They are too cheap to employ somebody decent! Who would be attracted to a hardship place like this? Only while the old Lintons were still alive and raising their children did they have a curate (Chapter 4).
"At last, our curate (we had a curate then who made the living answer by teaching the little Lintons and Earnshaws, and farming his bit of land himself)"
It really does sound desolate.
Sherry wrote: "The religious people are pretty harsh in this story. I wonder what her father was like? He..."I've not quite had time to catch up with all the latest comment yet, so sorry if this is mentioned elsewhere, but I think Joseph is painted unflatteringly as is supposed to represent some sort of Calvinism, the idea that the chosen were already selected and guaranteed their place in heaven with everyone else being damned.
I think a key thing could be seen in Lockwood's dream, where the sermon is a reference to Jesus telling Peter to forgive his enemies seventy times seven times, so the seventy first sin is not forgiving others, which Lockwood (and Joseph) are both guilty of.
By highlighting this so early in the text I think Emily Bronte was saying religion should be based on forgiveness, which I am trying to resist writing any spoilers can link into how the novel progresses and ends.
Mod
Mod
That's the Calvinist concept of double predestination, and to most non-Calvinists complete bunk, hence Bronte's criticism.
Clari wrote: "Sherry wrote: "The religious people are pretty harsh in this story. I wonder what her father was like? He..."I've not quite had time to catch up with all the latest comment yet, so sorry if this ..."
Forgiveness is actually the key to why Catherine and Hareton will have a happy future. Unforgiveness was Heathcliff’s destruction.
Laurene
Cindy
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