A Court of Frost and Starlight
discussion
A case against the constant vilifying of Tamlin
Sarah named her son Taran who is the name of the main character in Lloyd Alexanders book series "The Chronicles of Prydain" and he becomes High King of Prydain. Who knows? I want to see Tamlin happy. He never got a chance to be after Under the mountain. To be free to do what he likes.
In the books by L. Alexander there is a black Cauldron and when people is put in it they come out as undead warriors called well have a guess! Cauldron-born!
Magdalena wrote: "I just have a terrible feeling that Rhys and Feyre will end up as High King and Queen of Prythain. Urgh. Interesting about the Prison that the pegasi once lived there and that the people who lived ..."I won't be surprised if they do. I just couldn't help but hope there's a reason SJM is having Lucien be the connection to so many courts. (Spring, Day, Autumn, Night, and even the Continent.)
I've seen some theories about Elain and Azriel freeing those people. Elain made the comment about hearing through stone, and her besties Cerridwen and Nuala, being half-wraiths, can walk through stone and seemingly have been working with her on stealth.
Personally I'm REALLY hoping for an Elain and Azriel spy/mission/go after the 4th Trove object book, followed by a Lucien/Vassa/Juian/Tamlin book that centers on freeing Vassa a la Swan Lake (like it's obvious Vassa is based on that), Tam regaining the Spring Court, and them playing a huge role in defeating Koschei.
I really don't like that SJM brought the High King concept into acotar. Rhysand refused for now but just watch as he ends up being High King in the end. She is too biased in her characters to give a role as important as High King to someone that's not in her beloved circle. Lucien does have a lot of connections however he severely lacks power, as long as Helion is alive he will be weaker than all the current High Lords so it doesn't really make sense if you look at it that way for someone weaker than everyone to rule over an entire continent that houses much more powerful beings.
That sounds very interesting to have Elain use her powers to help the people in the walls. I'm kind of looking forward to seeing what kind of person Elain grows into. To be honest though I don't like the idea of her going with Az, I've never been a fan of that pairing.
I feel very confused as to what direction Az is going to end up going. Elain and him clearly like each other but do they even know each other, is it just sexual tension. Then there's Gwyn who seems like his mate but I don't want to ship them in case sjm is still fooling us and its actually a story about both of them rejecting their mates for each other.
What I do know though is I preferred the interaction with Gwyn compared to that lust with Elain. Az's character became very... ugly (lack of a better word) during those moments, esp when he had that argument with Rhys about how the cauldron made a mistake 🤣 .. However I also blame SJM, I feel like she doesn't know how to write male characters, especially their povs. All her mains thus far are just sex maniacs.
As for Vassa and Jurian... I really don't want to read about them but I know I'm going to have to since Lucien is tied to them. They're not bad characters or anything but like I have no investment in them. They're such random characters and to think they might have more of a story than Tamlin is so freaking annoying. (Though would be a nice reprieve from the inner circle I suppose)
I noticed this trend with all the SJM books and I have to say I'm not a fan:
- Rhysand - Most powerful in all the land - I feel like I expected this, generally in ya the male lead is always most powerful and most handsome so he fit that typical role.
- Feyre - Becomes even more powerful than Rhysand with her stolen powers
- Nesta - EVEN more powerful lol with the cauldron powers
- Aelin - Another crazy power up
- Bryce - I was so happy when she appeared as an underdog... Ends up becoming more powerful than the current Fae King dude
So now... next book lol .... Gwyn/Elain ... Someone is going to have a power glow up here 🙈 ... I love powerful women (sadly none mentions except for maybe Nesta) but this trope... it becomes a eyeroll if you continuously use it in all of your books.
I really want to see Tamlin pick up that fiddle once more. That moment will be such a tear jerker. Do you think SJM remembers that he used to play? lol
Maybe because Lucien is technically weaker, that would make him a better contender to be High King so the others aren't threatened? I feel like if the most powerful High Lord is also High King, that might be a harder pill for some to swallow. Like it's too much power and he'd be biased toward his own court, when the High King should probably be neutral. Though realistically, the only people who might object are Beron (who will be dead) and Tamlin. So maybe it doesn't matter in the long run.
I'm pretty sure the next book is Elain's just based on what SJM has said and the plot itself. Mastering her abilities, going after the fourth trove item (it's veiled in shadows, so I'm pretty sure Az will be the other pov), unmaking the mating bond, etc. I think they'll accidentally release Koschei from the lake, too. Because let's be real, we're not having a war on a lake where the villain is trapped lol.
Then book 6 would center around breaking Vassa's curse, Tamlin reclaiming Spring, Lucien coming into his own and finding his place, and defeating Koschei and Beron. I know we don't have a lot on Vassa yet, but I love the Swan Princess and think its super cool the ties SJM has set up. (I'm a sucker for true love breaking curses fairytales, too lol.)
The idea that both Elain AND Lucien would choose true love over a mating bond fascinates me. (My other wild theory...Elain will Unmake the mating bond and forge one with Azriel, and forge Lucien and Vassa's. Thus, they become the first mate pairings who chose their mates. I'd love to see that.)
Julianna wrote: "Not to mention all of the IC are the very definition of 'toxic males' and Feyre is a huge narcissist. But the fans portray her as a selfless, self-sacrificing, wonderful heroine. It never escapes m..."EXACTLY, feyre cares for no one but herself, killed hundreds of people because it was good for her, is manipulaitive and tells others to do things not even she can do, she makes mistakes many times but when others do its completly unforgivable, tamlin saved her life and she doesnt thank him!?, Why, cause he locked her up for not listening to him about HER saftey, she doesnt listen with reason and feels no empathy for those around her.
^ Exactly. What REALLY blew my mind in ACOSF though is the fact that *SPOILERS* Rhys kept Feyre in a super tight shield that not even her family could touch her, and proceeded not to tell Feyre about the risk of the pregnancy. Whether he's justified or not is one thing, but no one can tell me that if this had been Tamlin, he'd be given the same treatment. Feyre laughs off the shield when Cassian basically calls it overprotective - if it was Tamlin, she wouldn't be laughing. That sort of double standard is ridiculous to me.
Nicko wrote: "Briana wrote: "And to keep this about Tamlin, I hope that he finds something or someone to bring about some healing. "I think Tamlin should have a chance to reconcile with his past deeds alone. I..."
I'm actually making a fanfic about tamlin just healing by HIMSELF no romance or whatsoever gods knows how much romance in this acotar series that made me vomit just by the sheer amount and weird thoughts about it... but I think for now tamlin should just be on his own for a while.
i don't want him to be alone much I like to him to be push gently like by a memory or something that helps him heal but overall I just want him to heal not deal with shit later, but since I'm an ass I'm going to let him deal with shit while healing. but I'm still finding someone that can help me write this story
Ashara wrote: "Hi Guys, So I'm coming from insta after seeing a bunch of teaser pics regarding A Court of Silver Flames.
My thoughts regarding this new addition to the series got me thinking about Tamlin and ..."
can I be friends with you?
Charles wrote: "can I be friends with you??"Sure, I guess. But you can always give people friend invites.
Note: Second comment reported for spam.
oh im new to the goodreads so I don't know how to send people invites XDthis is just me imagining tamlin singing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ-Sw...
I'm also surprise they said Tamlin sexually assaulted feyre during calanmai but you forgot that Tamlin idk or lucien said Tamlin will be taken over by the hunter so basically it wasn't exactly Tamlin that pinned her against the wall it was the hunter.and I also notice that Tamlin was practically raped during calanmai during 5oo years of the high lord reign, I mean not being in your mind, taken over by a horny god, having sex with someone you didn't even choose, or even remembering about the night.
it sounds a lot like rape to me
and it's sad that feyre (the bitch) made it a problem when lucien did it and not Tamlin?
both, males were raped at calanmai and she has the audacity to just insult them?
#FuckYouFeyra
Charles wrote: "I'm also surprise they said Tamlin sexually assaulted feyre during calanmai but you forgot that Tamlin idk"I'm not sure it is. Most of the "victims" as you call them, were consenting members of the Spring Court (or other Courts I assume) up until the Calanmai from ACOTAR. If I'd have found any reference of unwillingness in my reread of ACOTAR I would have pointed it out but I haven't (and yes, I did a careful reread-analysis of of ACOTAR 2 years ago, pointing out character inconsistencies, motivations and the like).
You are also viewing those 500 years of this tradition from YOUR perspective, instead of the perspective of the characters. Sure this tradition is primitive, but so is everything concerning Fae and Fae sexuality, to be frank.
As far as Feyra is concerned... well, she was the stupid one, for ignoring Lucien when he told her not once, not twice, but THRICE to stay in her damn room during that night @.@
I=your right about me reading from my perspective, but i'm curious tho if tamlin does get a novella or a book centered about him, i kinda want him to be a stand-alone no romance at all, maybe some new and old friends.and hopefully feyra and her posse back off, my tam-tam needs some love everybody
Charles wrote: "But i'm curious tho if tamlin does get a novella or a book centered about him, i kinda want him to be a stand-alone no romance at all, maybe some new and old friends."I would honestly love to read a novel where we have Tamlin doing his own thing, with flashbacks from his own perspective on the multitude of events from Feyra's arc (ACOTAR, ACOMAF and ACOWAR) and quite a bit of character introspection. Just like Way of Kings and how Brandon Sanderson explored how Kaladin's past heavily influenced his entire character arc moving forward into the Stormlight Archive.
That said, I don't think that will ever happen. Considering the current direction of Sarah J. Maas' novels I don't think we will be getting any story from Tamlin's perspective anytime soon.
my cosuin ships tamlin and lucien but I just see them as friends for some reason idk
I completely agree, SJM has proved time and time again that Tamlin apparently doesn't deserve a healing arc, the best thing for Tamlin in my opinion is to move somewhere else for a while. Getaway and go to therapy and HEAL, he needs a lot of love and support and finally, when he's ready, he would find someone he loves.I hope you all know however that I am a VIVID feyre hater.
Piper wrote: "I completely agree, SJM has proved time and time again that Tamlin apparently doesn't deserve a healing arc, the best thing for Tamlin in my opinion is to move somewhere else for a while. Getaway a..."everyone here is feyre hater, ugh she's like the worst person you can imagine that's trying to be a saint, she reminds me on Selena gilbert from tvd -_-
Nicko wrote: "Topic contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!I know I am going to piss off a lot of people with these statements, but it is my firm belief that the reason why Tamlin is such a hated character i..."
I agree with you that Tamlin has been vilified and the route SJM took to have Feyre fall out of love with Tamlin could have been executed in a better manner.
However...
I believe Tamlin appears so vilified in the novels because we are reading from Feyre's perspective. "That's so obvious, Cora." "We already knew that." Well, yes. But considering we are seeing the story through Feyre's mind and eyes, that means we also feel her emotions and experiences.
For Feyre, Tamlin was her love, and she was deeply infatuated with him. Yet after the events of ACOTAR, that's when the honeymoon stage of their relationship was over, and like all relationships, she started to see his flaws, began to find him annoying, and ultimately began to resent him. Tamlin was vilified because Feyre's love for him had done a 180.
Now, what I think SJM has done so well is portraying Tamlin's mental health issues even though the character's who we are seeing her world through hate him. We, as the readers, know there is something wrong with him, but we are not in Feyre's position on the inside of all the drama. We are outsiders looking at it.
Tamlin is a villain to Feyre.
A side note:
Regarding the mistreatment towards Tamlin by pretty much the IC, I do not agree with it at all, but it fits the characters. SJM has built this entire world morally corrupt and that corruption and morally grey nature has seeped into every character. I much
prefer these characters making bad decisions and doing the wrong actions at times than completely perfect characters.
I perfectly understand your point, Cora, and you have presented it very eloquently. However, that does not mean I haven't considered it.I have to be honest I did analyse this aspect of the narration. I understand why it was utilised, but the immovable hatred Feyra shows Tamlin has surpassed unreasonable by the end of ACOWAR. As such, Maas has utilised this narrative aspect too much and what's more it seeps into book 4 as well, as if Nesta's just perpetuating the hatred because Maas just doesn't want to cut the guy some slack, not even AFTER switching perspective characters.
Nicko wrote: "I perfectly understand your point, Cora, and you have presented it very eloquently. However, that does not mean I haven't considered it.I have to be honest I did analyse this aspect of the narrat..."
I agree, it seems to go beyond Feyre's narrative, because literally every other character in the series (minus Lucien) seems to agree with Feyre's narrative.
I think SJM could have made a difference in showing how Feyre perceives him and how he's perceived by others differently. As is, I have yet to see anyone challenge Feyre's narrative. Even in that High Lord meeting everyone seems to act like he's a problem child.
Nicko wrote: "I perfectly understand your point, Cora, and you have presented it very eloquently. However, that does not mean I haven't considered it.I have to be honest I did analyse this aspect of the narrat..."
Her hatred does seem a bit too immovable. I do think that SJM needs to make Feyre's emotions towards him more complex. After all, he was her lover at one point, he was the person who brought her into the fae world (although, she didn't want to), and he did save her life under the mountain. I think Tamlin has good and bad points, yet, Feyre has forgotten the good.
As for Nesta, I think her hatred for him is a little too strong. She does have some justified hatred for him in that he is the monster that took her sister (Feyre), and partially played a role in her capture by Hybern. However, they lack much interaction with each other for her to have a fully blown hatred. I agree that SJM needs to reign in the hate campaign against him.
Cora-Laine wrote: "Nicko wrote: "Topic contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!I know I am going to piss off a lot of people with these statements, but it is my firm belief that the reason why Tamlin is such a hat..."
I really like your analysis of Feyre's POV, but I am going to have to disagree with your statement that sjm portrays Tamlin's mental health well. I think she does a terrible job at portraying his mental health, not in the sense of how we see it but how it is treated.
[TW-mental health]
She portrays his mental health correctly in the sense that, the readers can see he is obviously depressed to the point where he is suicidal--but sjm invalidates those emotions, and even vilifies them. All of the IC constantly want to express wanting him to die, Rhys even seems to encourage that thought for a bit before he realizes he still needs Tamlin alive to manipulate and control him for his own personal bidding. The line from ACOWAR 'be happy' means nothing in ACOFAS, because he is still upset about losing Feyre with the line 'dO yOu tHinK sHelL eVeR fOrGivE mE?'
We were given this false hope that he would move on and they would all move past this. But as the characters said themselves in the book, no matter what he does they'll never forgive him even though Rhys did the same if not worse things to Feyre. Not to mention Tamlin is so depressed and in such a horrible state of mental health that SJM reduces him back to a 'beast', an animal instead of a person. What does this say to the people who have gone through this isolation and depression before? I don't think sjm is very mindful of how her fandom behaves or she doesn't care. Because like people have mentioned before, that I am convinced is true, Feyre is her self insert so she is taking out all her trauma and hatred on a character that she at first created to be a 'good guy'.[/TW]
To her, his mental health doesn't matter. Only the precious IC matters. There are characters who have done worse that she redeems but not Tamlin? This is just a manipulative story posed as an empowerment piece. Authors that are hypocritical with their own characters aren't very good writers. The story becomes very hypocritical and biased and breeds a toxic fandom like ACOTAR that only takes Sarah's opinion instead of their own.
Also, an interesting mention of this thread that even with a change of POV that how Tamlin is viewed hasn't changed. That's because there is only one POV. There has only ever been one and that is Feyre/Sarah. All of the IC considers ONLY Feyre's side of the story. What I also find absolutely wild is that Sarah herself is pushing this false narrative that Tamlin and Lucien gave up the sisters to Hybern when it is clearly stated in the book that it was Ianthe? But that is never mentioned by any other character at all. It makes me wonder if Sarah changed her mind and wanted it to be Tamlin after all just to generate more hate toward him. It is just very strange to see an author push her own false narrative. Like, which is it Sarah? The hypocrisy.
What I also find really funny, is she humanizes Eris and the fandom eats that up but if you say that Tamlin doesn't deserve the hate you are an abuse apologist?
I completely agree to what all of you are saying, I’m reading a court of sliver flames as we speak and every BaD character gets to change and be forgiven, yet when it comes to tamlin, and his very obvious mental health issues it’s unforgivable. I’m sick of seeing so many of the books be portrayed in only her thoughts, she’s very obviously a phycopath with no idea what empathy is. I hated how sjm pushed all the readers into hating tamlin, feyre doesn’t like him so that means you can’t either, she likes Ryhsand so you should too, even though he’s a lot worse and more controlling then tamlin. All sjm does is vilify mental health issues, and focus around the worst characters EVER and call them good people
And by “she and her I was talking about feyre
Julianna wrote: "she humanizes Eris and the fandom eats that up"Wait... wasn't Eris one of Lucien's tormenters, before the kid came to the Spring Court for refuge? And wasn't he the one who was working with Hyburn's cronies to stop Feyra and Lucien from escaping in ACOWAR?!
And as a sidenote: Wasn't Jurian the one who captured and tortured a person!?!!?!?
Why are these characters getting undeserved redemption and why is Tamlin, who has arguably done less harm than either of these people, get treated like the scum of the world O.o
If you want an evil controlling High Lord who has surpressed his wife for more than 500 centuries I give you Beron. So yes Feyre and Tamlin didn't had a healthy feature. But Tamlin did much more than any gives him credit for. We don't know all his motives and just Night Court POW makes the narration so loopsided. And please it is Feyre and not Feyra. Nesta calls Rhys wain.
Magdalena wrote: "And please it is Feyre and not Feyra."Why would my typing her name Feyra instead of Feyre bother you, if that's how I say her name, phonetically speaking, when reading her name Feyre.
Also referring you to this note from my first review of ACOTAR:
"Feyra (I know it's Feyre but I am used with the a instead of e)"
Nicko wrote: "Magdalena wrote: "And please it is Feyre and not Feyra."Why would my typing her name Feyra instead of Feyre bother you, if that's how I say her name, phonetically speaking, when reading her name ..."
I don't agree but do as you like.
I know i am so late here but i am glad i found this thread!!Cause i have a lotttttt of things to say.
Like i dont understand how Lucien (The same person who has been friends with Tamlin for centuries, whose life tamlin saved from his own brothers and was there for him after Jessminda) just like gave up and run away to other people when things got difficult. Lucien was one of my favourite characters and i just cant stomach how sjm could make such a cute funny and sarcastic ass character into something like this.
I always found rhys to be to good be true, never liked cassian idk why pls dont come at me, and azriel is, well, nothing is wrong with him (as of now. i hope he dosent end up like lucien). Please dont even get me started on feyre. I agree with everything ppl say about her in this thread. But tamlin has always been one of my fav characters. istg he is the only realistic and the most human character. He shows real emotions in ACOTAR, but suddenly becomes a heartless monster later?!?!? She really did him dirty.
Am i literally the only one that cried on "Be happy Feyre"?!?!?
And i see so many reels on insta like 'characters that hated themselves at one point' and there is fcking rhys and literally the whole of the IC... where tf is my baby lucien?? where is bae tamlin ?? People just victamize Rhys and feyre so much. Literally the whole of ACOMAF and books after that is just them wallowing in self pity.
I actually want to see more characters being introduced. Tamlin and lucien making new friends and rebuilding a new court. People who see feyre as the IC sees Tamlin. I honestly also want to know more about the families of the two fey feyre killed under the mountain. Isnt that what her depression stems from?? The guilt??And they are like not mentioned at all later. Its like she met rhys and suddenly every thing was magically cured. Tamlin is shown as the backward and orthodox thinker when it comes to women but sjm is really the one that has that mentality. Like a big strong sexc man showed up and all her probelms are solved. Feyre was literally like i am leaving this guy who i literally died for and going to a man who made a bargain with me to keep me in his court. (Honestly that part in acotar sounded so sketcy and lowkey rapey ) Then i am gonna go back to the previous man, play with his heart, shatter his court whisk away his best friend (who couldve been his only source of comfort) and be big bad bitch about it.
i swear feyre's healing journey was also so poorly developed. Its like she has gotten worse. The whole inner circle is actually acting the like heartless bastards they pretend to be in ACOSF.
In ACOSF I swear i stopped reading after tamlin's scene. He DID NOT deserve that. And nesta pointing her finger is not foreshadowing then i dont know what is. But still i dont want him to die. I would literally read a 700 page book about lucien and tamlin and their history and their journey rather than the greatness of horny oversized bats and the great ARCHERON sisters.
Shit that felt so gud. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
Welcome to the club. Recently I've been noticing online discourse between the die-hard sjm fans and the people finally pointing out all the hypocrisies. And you are absolutely right, for a woman who is trying to preach about independent women not needing a man to form their identity around...that's exactly what Feyre does, except with Rhys. Not to mention the fandom praising Rhysand as a feminist icon for doing the bare minimum of respecting women, and he doesn't even do that well with his own freaking mate. I love a god 'helping each other heal' relationship but this ain't it. She makes Tam out to be toxic but Rhys is just as bad if not worse but it's different or ok because...?But Sarah writes in a way where she tells her audience what to think about each character, so Rhys's flaws and red flags are shoved under a rug while Tamlin serves as this pitiful pinata to sarah's self-insert party. Don't even get me started about the bizarre sex scenes and false narrative of Nesta's 'liberation' when she is tied down to a man who constantly invalidated her feelings about their terrible high lord and how her family cast her away as well as constantly objectified her. But it's ok because it's the IC, if it were any other character then they would be a horrible monster.
And it's kind of the same with every series isn't it? Same love interests. Same villains. Same 'twist' of taking an actually compelling character or bad guy and turning them into something better other than entire character destruction where they do a complete 180 of their persona mid-story as a kind of 'plot twist' when it's really sarah changing her mind about them.
I'm tired. I'm so tired. I want to quit reading, but I want to see Tamlin and Lucien's story through. I'm only sticking around for Gwyn, Lucien, and Tamlin at this point. But let's be real, it's not like sarah is going to do anything with her actual interesting characters or characters that are more human and more complex than her hypocritical hyper-perfect little IC dolls.
I whole heartedly agree that tamlin has been painted as the "bad guy" too many times. At first even I was of the opinion that the constant vilifying was not a problem , he deserves it but then I re-read the whole series again and now I don't think that ANYONE DESERVES TO BE MADE FEEL GUILTY ABOUT A THING FROM THE PAST. I mean Sarah J Mass has portrayed feyre to be happy and totally in love with rhysand and her life as the high lady of the night court , so why is there a need to constantly bully , be mean to tamlin. FORGIVE and let live is the key, there is no need for such a continous behaviour towards someone who no longer holds power over you.
Every character in this damn series sucks except Tamlin and Lucien and y'all can fight with your dentist.
i don't like how SJM completely changed the narrative on Tam by ignoring all the good stuff he did in acotar (and in the subsequent books like saving rhysand??? Hello ppl???) and even vilified his actions???? Ngl although the first book was a little cliche, I thought it was a classic love story and I was super touched by the love they had for each other. I hardline shipped them (you can imagine my astonishment and crumbling world view when i searched for feylin fanfic) I simply cannot fathom how can the girl who proclaimed her undying love for Tam in acotar harbor so much (unjustified) hate for the person she once would die for??? Smh
Justicefortamlin wrote: "I simply cannot fathom how can the girl who proclaimed her undying love for Tam in acotar harbor so much (unjustified) hate for the person she once would die for??? Smh"Apparently, for her it's justified. Locking her in the manor for her own good so she doesn't do anything stupid is too much. It's not like Rhysand would ever do that to her or deny her knowledge that she is entitled to .... like... I dunno that little tidbit about her pregnancy in ACOSF. No.... he certainly wouldn't.
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The Celestial wrote: "Topic contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!I totally agree!! I feel like to make us like Rhys, SJM villainized Tamlin. To be honest, I feel bad for the guy, and I for sure don't hate him. I truly hope he gets a redemption arc.
i hate when authors tell us who we can or can't like or what we shouldn't or should feel. It was obvious that she was force-feeding us with the Feysand ship and worst part is that most of the fandom ate it up. Including excusing Rhys's predatory and abusive behavior. But nobody is ever wrong in the IC guys, hahaha.....
Julianna wrote: "i hate when authors tell us who we can or can't like or what we shouldn't or should feel. It was obvious that she was force-feeding us with the Feysand ship and worst part is that most of the fando..."Sarah writes in a way that really does force you to think a certain way. Even going back to acotar, when the narrative wanted you to think Rhys was bad, or even Eris, the audience went along with it. Then Sarah writes them as good, and the audience follows right along. Whatever Feyre tells the audience to think, they listen.
Everything here... I am really happy to have found this topic. Like many, I thought, "Am I the only one?" The portraial of Tamlin in the 2nd book is ridiculous. And how Fayre just blames him like he wasn't enough back in the moutain and she was dumb for still liking him?
Maas, are you calling me dumb for caring about Tam? Do you expect me to believe in this new charming prince as you throw away the most beloved characters, Lucien and Tam like garbage for this... why should I?
I expect the tv series to go really well. Big thing. And that Tamlin and Lucien's actors chemistry with Fayre be as high as the moon. So we watch twitter and tumblr descend into hell as antis will go down with pitches and forks to alert us dumb girls how toxic they are.
Also glad that I stoped in the second book. After reading some spoilers here... I'm bafled.
Also, when I read these books I was new to YA. And now I've just read Children of Blood and Bone of Tomy Adeyemi wich is really good. So, there is the protagonist forming a relationship with this "anti-villain" boyfriend and in the middle of nowhere comes the smug perfect guy. Nothing happens with them until the second book. Is this a popular trope? I fell like I should have seen it coming in ACOTAR. And now I can't tolerate any smug perfect boyfriend after.
Larissa wrote: "Do you expect me to believe in this new charming prince as you throw away the most beloved characters,..."I absolutely agree with you. The transition between Tamlin and Rhys was handled so poorly. And I am so glad to know I wasn't the only one who fell for Tamlin in the first book. Reading ACOMAF just made me feel dumb. And I honestly don't get people going on about him being a abuser so "obviously we were misled." No. You don't have to be mislead for that. A good author does not 'mislead' you.
Everything is just so black and white with Maas. I don't think she understands the difference between an antagonist and a villain. Imo If she wanted us to hate Tamlin and not pity him she should have put in an infidelity angle. An old flame comes back or literally anything other than pushing the narrative of all his 'evil' doings. And yes I've seen this pattern in my YA books. I think authors do this to make it look realistic as in not all relationships last. They have a point but then it needs to be executed properly.
Also a couple weeks back I saw some where maybe in this thread only that Briar, the human feyre and family saved from Hybern's camp could be a love interest for Tamlin. So could it be that we are getting a Sleeping Beauty retelling. Because if I am not wrong that story is also know as "Little Briar Rose." Although I am not a fan of the original fairy tale, I would like to see how it plays out. Anyway whatever is, it would at least be a break from the IC and all those supposed feminist Prince Charmings.
Anika wrote: "And I honestly don't get people going on about him being a abuser so "obviously we were misled." No. You don't have to be mislead for that. A good author does not 'mislead' you."A good author always foreshadows, never misleads.
There's a book called Warbreaker (major spoilers by the way, if you wanna read Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderon, don't read this paragraph).... wherein one of the main characters, a princess trying to save her sister from being married to a tyrant (or so she believes), starts trusting a bunch of cutthroats and murderers who lead her by the nose. And all during the book, they tell her that she really shouldn't be trusting them, she doesn't seem to take their words into consideration until she finds one of the people - who's been accompanying her and who's actually been suspicious of these cutthroats - dead by their hands. ....When I read that I was like.... damn it! They warned HER! They warned her and she thought nothing of it!
That's one way to foreshadow your villain. (/spoiler)
That said, Tamlin whole attitude in ACOMAF was never foreshadowed. Sure Feyra wasn't relevant to Tamlin until she killed Andras. That said, after she was taken by Tamlin, her family was provided for, she lived in comfort, he genuinely displayed a gentle side to him and managed to make her love him despite his obvious faults. It's Rhys who came around and threw a monkey-wrench into everything! After the mountain, Feyra stopped trusting Tamlin, she became suspicious of him - prompted by him - she started asking for a higher position in Tamlin's court even though, by all means, she should have no business in politics because she's illiterate and her continuously infuriating behavior starts triggering Tamlin more and more, from snapping when Feyra tells him that the way she's living in the Spring Court (during ACOMAF) resembles her torment Under the Mountain, implicitly saying that Tamlin is no better than Amarantha, to her telling him that she doesn't care if she exposes to the other High Lords that she has all their powers, implicitly endangering herself and all the Spring Court with her - which later makes Tamlin lock her up.
I really don't think Tamlin should have locked her up, she might have been completely incompetent and ignorant about well, everything, but I think he should have given her a chance to help so that she could actually learn something like empathy and how the world works. No one should be imprisoned like that by someone who is supposed to love them. That being said, it's funny to me how it is a grave sin for Tamlin to lock her up but when Rhys does it, it's ok. The way Rhys treats her is so reminiscent of a controlling partner, and mirrors Tamlin's treatment of Feyre. Like, how did sjm think that was romantic? How did she not connect the dots that it was EXACTLY what Tamlin did to her? Like??? Your bias is showing, sweetie.
I think authors also mislead all the time as a plot twist or great story effect, but there's a difference between misleading and completely changing the narrative. Good authors, like your example of BrandoSando is a great example. They mix hints, they flip flop between the characters doing good things and bad things before they hit you with a surprise. Bad authors, change their mind midway through the book and instead of making corrections, just change the narrative and force it down your throat. Instead of rewriting Tamlin to make him actually unlikeable (or, you know, just letting him be instead of completely changing his established character) she just comes out with a book that's basically "yeah no, everything that happened in the first book is wrong." That's not good writing. You're just covering your ass because you decided to change the story when it was too late.
And why couldn't have Feyre and Tamlin ended their relationship on good terms? Why did Tam have to be made a monster? Why couldn't they have gone their separate ways instead of making this awful love triangle that contributes nothing to the plot except for erasing the very first book of the ACOTAR series? Lucien is an entirely different person after ACOTAR. She completely changed him, and he deserves so much better. God, and don't get me started on how Feyre doesn't even say 'Hey Tamlin we need to break up. You're toxic.' she just leaves a note saying she's leaving and never coming back. No communication, no explanation, so obviously no closure.
After all Feyre's hypocritical behavior, I am supposed to like and root for her? Are you kidding me? She's like one of those girls who are like: "it's so hard being beautiful and popular." then proceeds to be a hypocrite about everything she does. Feyre isn't a heroine, she's a villain. She's only the hero in her own story. Another sjm bland and shameless self insert.
Val wrote: "I call this series the "The Tragedy of Tamlain"Once you detach yourself from Freye's perspective and start to think of why Tamlain does what he does given the context. It's just a really long tra..."
to add to this, I don't think Tamlin intentionally ignored Feyre's vomiting at night. I didn't continue the story after book 2 and even then I only reached up to chapter 7, but as far as I know Tamlin with him being so easily sensitive to the way Feyre acts theres no way he would've ignored all that. This is just a theory more so headcanon now, but after Tamlin's first nightmare he started taking some type of medication to help him sleep, Feyre has said that after he woke up the first time it never occured again and I think theres should be a good explanation as to why.
and this is a dumb note to add and you can clearly tell im a teenager when i say that Tamlin would love Olivia Rodrigo's SOUR album
Ethan wrote: "and this is a dumb note to add and you can clearly tell im a teenager when i say that Tamlin would love Olivia Rodrigo's SOUR album"That was not dumb, that was more random than anything. That said you absolutely have a point about Feyra possibly not noticing Tamlin taking sleep medication.
I freaking agree with everything you said....Feyre just dismisses him and rhysand just preaches that he didn't deserve forgiveness and I'm like WHAT? you get forgiveness for your actions but what about him? This dude has already suffered enough I hated rhysand for being such a hypocrite and hated feyre even more for not even trying to talk with him like wtf girl? You're in love with someone and married what are you so afraid of? At this point I'm starting to forget the love they had on ACOTAR. Love is supposed be an emotional feeling even if it dies down. She's supposed to give him a chance after what he did but no what we expect and what we get. I think he's the hero who needs guidance not mr. pOwErFuL rhysand even tho we didn't actually see glimpse of his power in ACOTAR while fighting Amarantha wasn't it Tamlin who was more powerful? But things change I guess
Julianna wrote: "Welcome to the club. Recently I've been noticing online discourse between the die-hard sjm fans and the people finally pointing out all the hypocrisies. And you are absolutely right, for a woman wh..."in all honesty in ao3 there's a lot of tamlin fanfics that are actually much better then the books
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I would like for Tamlin to go on as a minstrel with his fiddle. He is very good and loves it.