A case against the constant vilifying of Tamlin

[WinterRose]

Ola wrote: "I pretty much agree with all of your points. Though I do have fun with her books, SJM has proven time and time again that she is a lazy writer who has no interest in developing complex plots. For s..."

All of this. There was no need to trash his character to prop up Rhys. I thought it was obvious by the end of acotar that Rhys was going to be the better choice for Feyre.

I kinda feel like acotar needed to be longer, because Feyre gets out of Spring REALLY FAST in book 2. I know SJM needed to move to the night court and plot surrounding it, but it was too fast.

@ Nadia. I haven't finished yet, but I did see some spoilers. Disappointed but not surprised. Though I do have a theory on that.

[Nadia]

You would think that Lucien would have more sympathy for Tamlin. As far as I see it, Lucien was there for everything. He knows Tamlin better than anyone else. He knows exactly why tamlin did what he did with Hybern. I would think Lucien would have been like " Feyre, not everything is what it appears to be," or whatever. I mean knowing Feyre she probably wouldn't have listened or understood but at least it would have been there.

[WinterRose]

You would think so. That's one of the things I hate most, not just ruining Tamlin's character but shattering that friendship. As much as the whole Jurian/Vassa/Lucien thing is interesting, I wish Tamlin could be part of that Band of Exiles.

[Ashara]

Regarding the quote from Sarah and Julianna.

It's so evident that Tamlin, despite not wanting to be a High Lord, cares for his people, he even cares for the monsters that plagued his lands. And it infuriated me to no end when they flipped that around to make him seem like this selfish bastard that only cares for himself and for getting Feyre back. It made me so happy when he lashed back at that high lords meeting to ask feyre if she thought it was all a lie, him wanting to rebuild etc. But yet again whatever efforts or valid points he made, was brushed away. 😤😤

So the release of acosf completely slipped my mind. I am super stoked that its here, just because I want to see the name Tamlin again. lol . I've been telling myself, dont get too excited because our dearest sjm is going to butcher him yet again and by the heads up of Nadia, it seems like I was right. BUT.... I'm still so excited 🤣 I'm going to start reading it now. I will probably come back fuming and ranting but for now I'm just gonna ride my wave of happiness that Tamlin's not dead. Whoop whoop.

@Nadia - to be honest the Lucien/Tamlin dynamics confuse me. At first, they appeared close like true buddies, Lucien was never scared of Tam, they would banter and it was so cute. I loved them so much but as the book progressed, everyone changed and it comes across as if Lucien and Tamlin arent close as we were led to believe they were. Now it's as if they dont know each other, Luciens always scared of Tamlin and now its turned into something even worse, pity. They're both going through so much emotional trauma right now, it would have been so nice if they leaned on each other for support like best friends would have anyways... but like I always said, in SJM's world you can't have nice things if you dont belong to the Night Court

@winterrose ..that would have been so perfect and beautiful for Tam to be apart of that, he indeed fits the title. And the four of them would have been such a formidabele force.

[Sarah]

SJM when she publishes a new ACOTAR book:

Me, with tears streaming down my face: Where is Tamlin? Is he ok? Is my boy alive? Is he eating? Is he well? Where is my TimTam? Where is my son?!

[WinterRose]

@Ashara - I totally agree, what she did with Lucien and Tamlin kinda blows my mind. How Lucien went from snapping at Tamlin and calling him out in ACOTAR to scared and then pitying is just...it's weird. I've seen a wild theory that since the Cauldron can decide who gets the High Lord magic, it will transfer the magic to Lucien to rule Spring a nd I just...NO.

I want Lucien and Tamlin's relationship to go back to normal. Not this morphed relationship meant to further demonize Tamlin. (In general what SJM did to Lucien was terrible. Completely sidelined him and his relationship with Feyre. And I think throwing in the mate thing w/Elain was also pointless. Lucien and Tamlin both have been done dirty.)

Tamlin 100% needs to be with the Band of Exiles. It just makes sense.

[Sarah]

WinterRose wrote: "Tamlin 100% needs to be with the Band of Exiles. It just makes sense.
"

Found Family!!

[Julianna]

Nadia wrote: "Y'all... heads up.

Tamlin is in the new book. ( Finished it in two days because I have no self control))
No spoilers...but its not good."

Why am I not surprised. Disappointed but not surprised. This is why I have no faith in sjm. Usually she leaves some foreshadowing about what she is going to do next for her characters and if there is literally not a single shred of hope for Tam then what should we expect?

I haven't gotten far into ACOSF so I don't know the extent of how bad it is but if it's anything like ACOFAS I don't know how much more of this I can stomach.

[Julianna]

I almost want to know the spoilers. I want to know if I should have hope for him or if I should give up because so far he's just sjm's go-to punching bag until she decides to end him in some pitiful way. Everyone keeps telling me to not worry that she has a plan, but sjm is also predictable and so far I feel like the odds are not in our favor. Make me a believer though, because this is heartwrenching, a damn travesty.

And I'm right there with you guys, you would think that Lucien would really lean towards Tam more after everything they've been through together and after personally being a victim to Feyre's manipulation. I would think he would see what was done to her and know how wrong it was, but she also used Lucien as well. I swear Lucien and Tam have it the worst, like sjm has some personal vendetta against them. Her books feel like she is shitting on them the entire time, she really is doing them both so dirty it's almost a crime to see such great characters go to waste.

[Val]

I think Tamlin becomes self aware in ACOWAR that he’s being done dirty by SJM when Feyre says “Its still a mess...” and he just smiles and responds with “I think we all are...”
lol

[Marion]

Well Hello !

I have discovered about this page some weeks ago and I just read every single new message uploaded since then !

I am just SO happy to see that there are people who like and support and understand Tamlin's character ! 😍

It's surreal, really !

I feel the need to express myself on the subject too. I strongly agree with everything that you said ! Thank you for all of your words and analysis ! It's pleasing to read them !

(Sorry if I make mistakes, I'm from France lmao, I'll try my best to write well)

I don't know a lot of people who seem to like Tamlin, and it's always surprising to me to see the amount of hate he gets... Tamlin, even though he's a High Fae, is the most "human" person in this story !

I don't know if people (except from you guys of course) realize it, but Tamlin is suffering from depression and even before UTM ! If you reread carefully book 1 you'll notice plenty of details that show how much he's already broken... (Just like you did show us @Sarah !)
And I mean, can you blame him ?!
Do you imagine how it would feel like to be harassed by a woman for years and years ? Feeling forced to love and bed her ? Having the weight of the Prythian's fate on your shoulders just because you said "no" ?
Compared to Tamlin, Amarantha doesn't even get a tiny bit of hate... People blame him for not doing anything while UTM but first of all, what could he do ? Where would he run away ? He has no powers left...
Him staying back actually did allow Feyre to live a little longer ! Because if he would have said anything, Amarantha would not have made any bargain with her and straight away kill her before him !

There are many things people blame him for, but I truly don't see what's the matter with all of this...

For example, allying with Hybern. Well, try to see things from his POV for a moment ! He thinks Rhysand is controlling her mind, he doesn't know Feyre can write so when he receives her letter that is obvious he doesn't believe a thing she said ! He sincerely thinks she's in danger !
And I would like to remind people that he didn't agree at all to sell Feyre's sisters to the Chauldron ! It was IANTHE 'S idea and no one else !
Also, allying with Hybern didn't mean he wanted to put Prythian in danger and betray everyone just like Feyre thinks ! Because eventually this had allowed him to spy on Hybern's army in his own lands, and I think that's what he always intended to do, but not a single soul in these books thinks he's smart enough to do so, only thinking about himself... That's not true ! He cares for Prythian, he always did. He helped during the War ! He cares for mortal lands and the end of slavery ! Of course he said many times he didn't want to be a High Lord but that doesn't mean he doesn't give a fuck about anything...

As for Calanmai with Lucien and Ianthe. Excuse me but when did it say in the book that Tamlin forced him to participate ? Lucien decided for himself, just like an adult ! And again, if you want to blame someone here...blame IANTHE ! Because SHE forced him and she even harassed him way before that event.

Locking Feyre up in his manor wasn't his finest move... I think after UTM Tamlin becomes a whole different person who can't cope well with his mental health. But at the same time, try to see things from his POV ! First of all, blame IANTHE once again because she has a really bad influence on him. I'm sure there would be plenty of things Tamlin wouldn't have done without her by his side ! Second, Tamlin has already a lot of responsabilities to carry ! It's already a lot for him to go back to normal life after UTM ! Do people even talk about when he's changing into his beast form at night againt his will because he's not okay ? Of course not ! So if Feyre goes out, it's another task for him because she needs protection... It doesn't excuse his action...but kind of explain it ? It kind of got on his nerves to be forced to accept to do something he was afraid to do ! We've seen it before, Tamlin has always been stuborn af ! You can't win an argument against him, he'll always have the last word (his favorite being "no" haha). I think Feyre didn't realize he needed to feel safe at all costs knowing she would be inside, and Tamlin didn't realize she doesn't feel safe at all staying inside... They clearly had not the same needs to relax, and to cope with their trauma.

I think Tamlin has a tendency to completely numb his emotions... He doesn't cope at all with his mental health because he does not want to think about it ! He always want to do things by his own, and it's pretty sad don't you think ? Not being able to ask for help, always taking all of the responsabilities on his shoulders, feeling forced to be strong mentally and physically all the time... I think he needs to reconnect with his feelings, even the darkest ones ! Because numbing only makes them grow stronger... That's why he explodes so many times ! And that's also why he can't see other people's pain (Feyre's precisely). Btw, has she talked with him about her general state ? I don't think so ! And neither did he sadly... Their relationship was just not vocal enough.

Tamlin insulting Feyre during the meeting is not shocking to me at all because I think he's right to go nuts ! She was being selfish to have manipulated him in book 3 ! She is also selfish to have destroyed his court ! There was a time when she even wanted to help spring people to rebuild their villages ! Well, now there must be a lot of them dead because of her... Moreover, everything he says during this meeting fucking makes sense if you once again try to see things from his POV ! Nobody informs him about what's going on and stuff, he's always left aside.

I don't like Feyre anyway can you tell haha ?

As many of you said, SJM tends to make him "evil" and it's really sad to realize that mental illnesses are directly connected to crazyness or being a monster.

He definitely deserves his redemption arc ! Which I think slowly started with him helping Feyre and Azriel during the War and saving Rhysand !

Our beasty boy needs time to heal ! He needs to be surrounded more than ever (btw people also blame Tamlin to have given Lucien back his stuff after the War but like... Didn't he deserve it lmao ? He abandoned Tamlin overnight that's not really nice of him) !
He deserves love, peace of mind and happiness !

I'm afraid to read acosf because reading book 4 has already been so heartbreaking to me...

There are so many other things I want to say about him and I'll just stop here because it's already too long haha ! And it's midnight time right now for me, so I'm going to hit the sack and dream about TimTam !

Hope you are all doing well btw ! 💓

I send good vibes your way ! 🙏✨

Feel free to react or share what you want to as always !

[Sarah]

@Marion

Welcome to the family, babe! Here we defend our depressed faerie from all the unnecessary hate!

And I agree with your points. Tamlin did suffer from depression even before UTM and I'm positive he suffered even BEFORE Amarantha. It's been stated before that he hates his father for enslaving humans and he also hated his two brothers because they were assholes. The only one he actually had a decent relationship with in his family was his mother. I mean he only mourned her death while he just forgets about the rest of his family. Conclusion: Our TimTam is a Mama's Boy.

I also agree about the numbing his emotions bit. Tamlin deals and copes with his mental problems by pretending it doesn't exist. He has that 'If I ignore it, it won't bother me' mindset which is quite relatable because I do the same thing but it's also a very unhealthy coping mechanism.

This is because it leads to him bottling up all his feelings and emotions in a small jar. And then when he bottles up TOO much, the jar explodes and we then see him in one of his aggressive moods.

And the thing about him working alone is also actually realistic if you look at his past. When his father died and he became High Lord, most of the courtiers ran away because they didn't want to serve a 'snarling beast'. I don't know about that but if I were him I'd be very sad from that.

Tamlin probably felt betrayed and he probably started thinking in order to gain respect he needs to work alone most of the time when in fact that is not true.

Sorry if I'm rambling but I just find Tam an interesting character and I enjoy psychoanalysing him!

[Nicko Mocanu]

Nadia wrote: "Tamlin is in the new book. ( Finished it in two days because I have no self control))
No spoilers...but its not good."

Ugh.... I knew it. Man this woman has NO respect for her characters. It does not even matter what happen, the fact that you say "not good" in general, says it all, to be honest.

[Joanne]

It’s not good but also it’s barely even worth commenting on.. I genuinely thought we would see more. Just a few comments here and there and he appears once.. big let down.

The rest of the book though- amazing. Thoroughly enjoyed it. 👌🏻

[WinterRose]

Random but re-reading acotar and this just makes me so sad knowing how alone he is now.

“I’ve had many lovers,” he admitted. “Females of noble birth, warriors, princesses …But they never understood. What it was like, what it is like, for me to care for my people, my lands. What scars are still there, what the bad days feel like.” That wrathful jealousy faded away like morning dew as he smiled at my painting. “This reminds me of it.”

“Of what?” I breathed.

He lowered the painting, looking right at me, right into me. “That I’m not alone.”

[Sarah]

WinterRose wrote: "Random but re-reading acotar and this just makes me so sad knowing how alone he is now.

“I’ve had many lovers,” he admitted. “Females of noble birth, warriors, princesses …But they never understoo..."

Ah yes, THAT scene. One of my favourites. The 'bad days' line will forever haunt me till the day I die.

The fact that Tamlin is showing his vulnerable side to Feyre and telling her that she makes him feel less alone. Only then for me to remember that he is definitely very much alone in the very end.

Wonder what happened to that specific painting...

[Magdalena]

How much lower can the author let Tamlin fall? This is absurd. I would like a casual and steady recovery buth with the timeline in the books is he coming back roaring at full speed? He needs to heal slowly and interact with Feyre and the rest od the crew.

[Sarah]

Magdalena wrote: "How much lower can the author let Tamlin fall? This is absurd. I would like a casual and steady recovery buth with the timeline in the books is he coming back roaring at full speed? He needs to hea..."

With the trauma that he endured, homeboy needs a LOT of time in order to take care of himself. As for interacting with rest of the crew, that's unnecessary. He just needs to have a long conversation with Feyre and maybe Rhysand to talk about everything and then they can just go about their lives never having to see each other except during High Lord business.

[Val]

After reading ACOSF, I find it almost funny that most of their current problems basically revolve around the main cast constantly treating Tamlin like dirt. (view spoiler)[Them continuously kicking him while he's down had further diminished his mental state that other rulers have taken notice of and are trying to capitalize on how weak the Spring court is. The main cast is so petty and vindictive, that they're literally about to cause another war simply because they can't be civil towards Tamlin. He literally just stays in his beast form now and just aimlessly wanders the forest. Then every so often someone from the main cast realizes it's about that time to go to the Spring Court, berate, threaten and abuse Tamlin. Then later on wonder why the Spring Court is in such a poorly ran state, and stress over the impending wars it's going to cause. For all the vilification of Tamlin for being an abuser, I feel like SJM has lost some sense of self-awareness and doesn't realize that her heroes have become abusers themselves. Because from everything we see Tamlin is just keeping to himself and its the members of her main cast that keep going to him for no other reason than to further abuse him. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Val wrote: "After reading ACOSF, I find it almost funny that most of their current problems basically revolve around the main cast constantly treating Tamlin like dirt. [spoilers removed]"

@Val

I'm sorry they did what now?

(view spoiler)[ What do you mean by he's in his beast form, wandering aimlessly?! And what do you mean by 'the main cast keeps beating him up'. I thought they were over him?!?! (hide spoiler)]

[Julianna]

Regarding the spoiler
(view spoiler)[while it is absolutely awful of sjm to keep crushing him past rock bottom-- doesn't his current state remind you of something? Remind you of a certain story? A certain story about a sorceress who cursed a prince to live in the form of a beast? There is a theory about it, but I'm not going to say anything yet until people have finished the book. (hide spoiler)]

Tbh, I still think we are all being hopeful but at this rate either sarah will be very predictable or subvert all of our expectations.

[Val]

Tamlin continues to be a punching bag basically.

(view spoiler)[Tamlin has basically given up living as a sentient creature and just stays in his beast form and lives as an animal in his forest. What I mean by the cast keeps beating him up, is throughout the book. Every time they reference Tamlin, they talk about how they wanna kill him, how he deserves his fate, etc. But at the same time complain that the Spring Court is causing geopolitical instability since other rulers have noticed that due to his grief and deteriorating mental state, Tamlin isn't really ruling anymore. Thus war looms on the horizon because the Spring Court is essentially just free real estate now.
The one time Tamlin appears in the book, they berate him for his past actions, tell him they don't care how sorry he is or even if he tries to atone then threaten to kill him as in they begin casting a spell against him and stop when he curls up in fear, then mock him for being afraid, then threaten to rip his head off if he tells anyone. I'm not even exaggerating. What did he do to bring this on you ask? Well had the audacity to run into Nesta & Cassian making backroom dealings with Eris on his lands. I know what you're thinking. what an A-hole! How dare he be in his own lands!
In this scene, we also see how far his mental state had and continues to deteriorate. He stays in his beast for the whole time and can hardly even speak anymore, his words were described as guttural, nearly impossible to understand. (hide spoiler)]

How I feel about Tamlin at this point: https://youtu.be/UcZzlPGnKdU

[Sarah]

Val wrote: "Tamlin continues to be a punching bag basically.

Well fuck me then. I am so not going to survive if I read that. But I also want to read it just to see with my own eyes but at the same time I'm also VERY afraid.

Help.

[Ashara]

Julianna wrote: "I swear Lucien and Tam have it the worst, like sjm has some personal vendetta against them. Her books feel like she is shitting on them the entire time, she really is doing them both so dirty it's almost a crime to see such great characters go to waste."

I truly feel like she genuinely hates them and sabotages whatever advances they could make on purpose.

Marion wrote: "And I would like to remind people that he didn't agree at all to sell Feyre's sisters to the Cauldron ! It was IANTHE'S idea and no one else!"

Yep, remember this for when you read ACOSF 😒

Marion wrote: "I think Tamlin has a tendency to completely numb his emotions..."

100% agree. It's so obvious in this book that he doesn't have a healthy way of dealing with emotions, with pressure. This goes hand in hand with his inability to voice his concerns, his worries, his pain. Its one if his biggest downfalls with Feyre, with Lucien, with everyone really.

He just bottles everything up. Or debates amongst himself and does what he thinks is best without consulting others. This makes you want to smack him. But you cant smack centuries of that behavior out of him.

He needs someone whose going to want to stick by him, worm their way into his mind, into his heart. Make him want to open up, be vulnerable around them. Make him see that there's a different way to do things, one that doesn't involve being so alone and not trusting anyone with your feelings. I would have loved for that person to be Lucien, or a lover, a mate. ...But ... that aint happening..

So I have just finished acosf. And I have lots of mixed feelings.

(view spoiler)[
Just to go over some of the Tamlin moments.

“They say a beast prowls these lands now. A beast with keen green eyes and golden fur. Some people think the beast has forgotten his other shape, so long has he spent in his monstrous form. And though he roams these lands, he does not see or care for the neglect he passes, the lawlessness, the vulnerability. Even his manor has fallen into disrepair, half-eaten by thorns, though rumors fly that he himself destroyed it.”
“Enough with the double-talk,” Cassian said. “Tamlin’s staying in his beast form and is finally getting the punishment he deserves. So what?” Eris and Rhys held each other’s gaze. Eris said, “You’ve been trying to bring Tamlin back for a while. But he isn’t getting better, is he?” Rhys’s jaw tightened, his only sign of displeasure.

It broke my heart to see that Tam has even lost the will to appear as a High Fae. That he'd rather just give himself over the beast who has the basic survival instincts of eating and sleeping. He's literally just doing enough to stay alive and nothing more.

And the saddest thing is that the only person there who is trying to "help" him is Rhysand. Like why the fuck is he the one trying to bring Tam back??!?!?!?!? From the last book, all he did was taunt him and kick him down. His presence only worsens Tam.

And for the life of me I do not understand why they keep insisting on having their little secret meetings in Spring?! You could go anywhere but you chose this place.

As for Lucien 😒 I feel so... disappointed with him. Yes, we know he's "friends" with Feyre (I dont understand how that friendship works with all the backstabbing but oh well that's what sjm views as friendship...), and so by that he's an emissary for Night (an arrow straight through my heart). These duties mean spying on Tamlin and reporting his state back to Rhysand. I was just flabbergasted by this betrayal of Lucien. Maybe its not sjm that doesnt know what friendship is but rather Lucien.

I dont even know if he even considers Tam a friend anymore. There's moments when Tam or Spring is brought up in front of Lucien and he gives very clipped answers or cringes but I have no idea what those responses mean. Is he cringing at the harshness associated when speaking of his once Court and friend. Or is he cringing because of being associated to such things. And it honestly wont surprise me if he ends up being more loyal to Night than to Spring. He's often seen being friends with them or partying with them. It almost makes me glad for the pain in his eyes whenever Elain rejects him.

So after this we learn that Feyres pregnant 🙄 and Rhys and crew sends Lucien to Tam to do damage control. According to Lucien it all went really badly. For some reason, this reaction from Tam made me think that there's really no coming back from him, from sjm.

Moving on to when Tam actually appears in the book... 💔

Nesta let an ember of her power glow in her eyes. Let Tamlin see it as she said, “You will not touch us.”
“I have every right to kill trespassers on my lands.” The words were guttural, nearly impossible to understand. As if Tamlin had not spoken in along while.

The fact that he hasn't spoken in a while 😭

“Are these still your lands?” Nesta asked coolly, stepping out from behind Cassian. “Last I heard, you don’t bother to rule them anymore.” Eris remained utterly still. He’d been caught meeting with them, she realized. If Tamlin told anyone—
Nesta said, “I suggest you keep your maw shut about this.”

I HATE the authority she has here. Lord I wanted to gut Nesta in this scene! I hate how they continuously make themselves seems superior than everyone else. She has the audacity to into HIS lands without permission, insult him like he's a lowlife and not the High Lord of the Court. And yet he is the monster....

Tamlin bristled, hackles rising. “You’re exactly as nasty as your sister said you were.”
Nesta laughed. “I’d hate to disappoint.”
She held his emerald stare, knowing silver flames flickered in her own. “I went into the Cauldron because of you,” she said softly, and could have sworn thunder grumbled in the distance. Cassian and Eris faded away into nothing. There was only Tamlin, only this beast, and what he had done to her and her family.
“Elain went into the Cauldron because of you,” Nesta went on. Her fingertips heated, and she knew if she looked down, she’d find silver embers flaring there. “I don’t care how much you apologize or try to atone for it or claim you didn’t know the King of Hybern would do such a thing or that you begged him not to do it. You colluded with him. Because you thought Feyre was your property.”

My blood was literally boiling at this part!!! 😤😤😤😤 She pushed all of her issues onto a broken man who had nothing to do with Elain and her going into the cauldron. And she even acknowledges the fact that he didn't know and just brushes it aside. She doesn't care for facts at all.

And that line "You thought Feyre was your property" 😤😤😤 The only reason he infiltrated Hybern was to SAVE YOUR ILLERATE SISTER! from the same high lord that Nesta used to hate because Rhys showed the world what a real monster looks like. But even that was still too risky for Tam so they decided against it. Until your dearest sister showed Lucien another type of monster. They thought they had no choice but to save her 😔 Lucien wanted to save his friend, Tamlin wanted to save his lover 😔 it was not property. Sigh

Nesta pointed at Tamlin. The ground shook. Cassian swore behind her. Tamlin shrank from her outstretched finger, claws digging into the earth. “Put that finger down, you witch.” Nesta smiled. “I’m glad you remember what happened to the last person I pointed at.” She lowered her arm. “We’re going now.” She stepped back to where Cassian was already waiting, arms open. He wrapped them around her waist. Nesta glanced to Eris, who gave her a shallow, approving nod, then vanished.
Nesta said to Tamlin before they shot into the skies, “Tell anyone you saw us, High Lord, and I’ll rip your head from your body, too.”

🤬🤬🤬🤬 The way she threatened him, the way she ordered him. The smugness. The way he shrank back 😭😭 I want to rip her head from her body 😤

Then Cassian and crew keeps saying "we need a strong ally. We need the Spring Court’s forces" How do you think you're going to gain an ally there when you keep treating him like shit?!

Nesta's journey in this book was actually so beautiful that I had hoped for something similar for Tam. But nope, Even Eris gets thrown something but nothing for Tam.
(hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

@Val

Oh my god it's worst than I imagined.

(view spoiler)[ I really like Nesta because she's basically the same as Tamlin. Villainised to make Feyre and Rhysand seem superior and honestly I feel disappointed in her for how she treated Tamlin.

He's already lost. He has nothing.

He's going through the same shit she is but the only difference is that he's fully gone off the deep end and no one is there to support him. Nesta has 'support' (Honestly I can't even call it support because the IC were rude asshats to her but I have no other words to describe it).

If anyone can understand TimTam it would be Nesta. (hide spoiler)]

[Julianna]

@Ashara so many good points. It's so odd to me that everyone conveniently forgets the truth about the whole Cauldron thing. Or maybe since Ianthe is dead, they want someone to blame, and Tamlin has become easy pickings. If Tamlin is to blame for Elain and Nesta getting turned to Fae then so is Rhys and Feyre by that logic. They brought both sisters into the mess and did little to protect them.

(view spoiler)[One thing that also confuses me about ACOSF is Nesta's feelings for Elain, especially when she gets very heated at Tam for it being his fault that Elain turned High Fae. Elain also betrayed Nesta? Nesta even compares her to a dog that serves any master willing to provide her shelter and comfort. That being said, she knows Elain isn't a good and loyal sister so why does she still defend her like crazy? The whole IC treats her like absolute shit and she forgives them! Doesn't make sense to me.

The Court of Hypocrites return with: 'Tam deserves to die' and 'Tam is a terrible high lord, he doesn't care about his own court anymore.' to 'we NEED the spring court.' Hmmmm I wonder why Tamlin behaves the way he does, what a mystery!
I honestly cannot stand them sometimes.

Never thought I'd say this but I am also disappointed in Lucien. I understand that he initially stayed to help the IC because of Elain and the so-called 'friendship' between him and Feyre but in ACOFAS and even ACOSF they made it clear that no one likes Lucien because no one trusts him and because he's friends with Tam (which is debatable by now) and I am without a shadow of a doubt sure that Elucien is NOT happening. Sarah isn't subtle at all. So he really has no reason to continue to stay and help them. He literally hangs out with his outcast friends all the time while the IC continues to keep him around for info only. Why even keep helping these people? Especially when they are becoming like dictators of Prythian? How are they any better than Tam? (hide spoiler)]

I lose a little respect for sjm with every book. I hate to have no hope but it genuinely feels like Tamlin and Lucien are kept around to be her little clowns that everyone can laugh at and shit on until she decides she doesn't want them around anymore.

[Magdalena]

I don’ think the NC want to let the AC or Beron take the SC. So Tamlin is their best option to status que. Are they doing it right no I do not think so and the bad feelings are there. I do not envy Lucien’s position. Tamlin never managed to fit in to his role as HL as he never wanted it. But he never tried to cahange things for better and kept things as it were. I do not like the tradition of thithe but Tamlin has so much potential that has to be realesed and he is a good male by fae standards. Rhys had role models like Amren, his mother and Helion.

[Nicko Mocanu]

Val wrote: "(view spoiler)[The one time Tamlin appears in the book, they berate him for his past actions, tell him they don't care how sorry he is or even if he tries to atone then threaten to kill him as in they begin casting a spell against him and stop when he curls up in fear, then mock him for being afraid, then threaten to rip his head off if he tells anyone. I'm not even exaggerating. What did he do to bring this on you ask? Well had the audacity to run into Nesta & Cassian making backroom dealings with Eris on his lands. I know what you're thinking. what an A-hole! How dare he be in his own lands!
In this scene, we also see how far his mental state had and continues to deteriorate. He stays in his beast for the whole time and can hardly even speak anymore, his words were described as guttural, nearly impossible to understand.. (hide spoiler)]"

Omg, this breaks my heart so much. It's been 3 years since I've gotten past my own depression but this scene has the makings of giving me severe PTSD.

[Ashara]

Just a heads up *Spoilers* below

@sarah - I thought the same with regards to the Tam/Nesta thing. Just before her encounter with him I was thinking to myself that this is exactly the healing that Tamlin needs. They're almost one in the same. Now if we could only have the same done with Tam. And then BAM she treats him worse than the IC treated her. I didn't expect her to like him but I was very disappointed in her behavior and power trip.

And also we have yet another scenario to add to the list of things he has said that is true but is ridiculed for it.

“I have every right to kill trespassers on my lands.” - I still can't believe that they had the audacity to come into his lands and order him around.

@Julianna - Even though I actually liked Nesta's story if I leave out the bits with tam/feysand/etc. It definitely felt like a different character. I feel like the reasons sjm gave for Nesta's behavior wasn't justifiable enough. Especially when she kept harping on about her father. I really don't like how they made her father into this good man worthy of their love. He was terrible even when we read it from Feyre's perspective.

Then there's Nesta going off about how Elain doesn't have a personality. How she secretly loves Feyre. I was just like what is going on here?! ..Then the relationships with the IC and Nesta is just.... No choices were given to her despite them being the court of choices 🙄 nobody ever apologized to her for treating her that way and yet she's the one forgiving them and loving them and becoming friends with them... It was inevitable but ... idk doesnt feel right.

I kinda loved that part where she blurted out the secret to Feyre regarding the baby. I was like finally! Now Feyre knows what it feels like when people make decision for you just like you did with Nesta. But off course Nesta is the bad guy for doing this.

There were so many double standards and moments when Rhys and cassian behaved just like Tam and yet he's not condemned for it.

Also has anybody read the exclusive with Azriel's pov?
(view spoiler)[
I dont know whats happening with elucien but i think elriel is off the table. I'm loving the new chick Gwyn. I think she and Az makes a better couple.
That being said, I was honestly disgusted by Az's behavior in it. I feel like sjm's idea of a man loving a woman is their dicks getting hard. He wants to taste Elain, fuck her, claims that the cauldron made a mistake. That Lucien doesn't deserve her but apparently he does. I was so pissed off that they made Lucien seem like a weakling and not the possible heir to day. Like Rhys, Cas and Az are the only strong ones in Prythian, the only worthy males 🙄 And then he does the most dickish thing ever, regifts the gift ... so anyways rhys keeps going on about how alliances must be kept with spring. And Nesta mentioned how Elain would love Spring. So I dont know if somehow Lucien and Tam reconciles and Elain actually starts liking Lucien. ... But as much as I wanted Elucien, I cant see Elain ever liking him with the way she currently strings him along without giving him a scrap of attention

Also some crazy theories going around about how Gwyn could be Tamlin's daughter. Since her mother slept with the man that the magic had chosen. That plot honestly scares me. It means they could do away with Tam completely since another heir is there and that heir has the support of Night, Azriel 😰 ... though it seems odd that she doesnt have blonde hair or green eyes. I'm hoping that theory is completely wrong.
(hide spoiler)]

@Magdalena - I also think Tam has so much potential and if he had the right backing and support from council members he could actually change Spring for the better, make the place a haven for all kinds of species just like Velaris is ...but sigh he needs to heal first.

[Nicko Mocanu]

Ashara wrote: "Nobody ever apologized to her for treating her that way and yet she's the one forgiving them and loving them and becoming friends with them... "

Whut.... -.-
Most of her problems started because of them, they were never nice to her and yet she forgives them? NESTA? Forgives the Court of Hypocrites?

[Magdalena]

@Ashara I don't think Gwyn could be Tamlin's heir even if she is his daughters. I only think the HL's magic choses males. To make a High Lady the power must be given but that is my theory.
But we have already seen one secret HL ofspring so why not! It would give him something to anchor him.

How can there be so many abused priestess at the NC?

[Magdalena]

I can understand if Cassian and Azriel hates Tamlin as he was involved in the killing of Rhys's mother who took them in as children in the camp and gave them shelter. But you can't hate for ever Life is to short for that even as an immortal. Feyre thought so in the end of acowar.

[WinterRose]

I'm still inching my way through Silver Flames and this might just be me, but Nesta's character feels...off. I wasn't a fan of her before, but I was expecting her pov to be more...like Manon maybe? Idk her tone is just weird. I can't explain it.

What I don't understand is how every character minus possibly Amarantha and Hybern get some justification and even forgiveness but Tamlin can't. Is it because he was a love interest? Like I don't get it.

@ Ashara - I did read the Az POV though. (view spoiler)[ Honestly I still think Elriel is endgame unless SJM just retcons everything she wrote previously and can somehow link Gwyn to the plot so much that it warrants giving her 300+ pages of point of view. (I think Lucien will end up with Vassa, and they'll be the final book. And I HOPE Tamlin gets his redemption here, though I'd still prefer a novella.)

Tbh SJM needs to go back to YA. Those limitations made her a better writer. She goes too off the rail with adult.
(hide spoiler)]

Totally random, but was anyone else disappointed the whole "Tamlin has a heart of stone" thing was like, never explained? Feyre assumed it was how Amarantha was controlling them, but did that mean all the High Lords had these hearts of stone too? And like, why? What's a literal heart of stone have to do with binding magic?

[Sarah]

WinterRose wrote: "Totally random, but was anyone else disappointed the whole "Tamlin has a heart of stone" thing was like, never explained? Feyre assumed it was how Amarantha was controlling them, but did that mean all the High Lords had these hearts of stone too? And like, why? What's a literal heart of stone have to do with binding magic?"

That's actually a good question.

In the myth of Tam Lin after the heroine, Janet, saved his ass from the Faerie Queen, she (The Faerie Queen) lets the two love birds go BUT NOT BEFORE telling Tam Lin that if she had known that he would end up like this -- falling in love and having a relationship with a mortal woman -- she would have given him a heart of stone.

But there's also a different version where instead of saying that she would give him a heart of stone, she said that she would have petrified his eyeballs.

In really depends on what version you read/prefer.

But it still doesn't make sense for ACOTAR.

[WinterRose]

Interesting! Though you're right, it doesn't make sense for ACOTAR.

I've seen some people start hoping/theorizing Tamlin will die and the Spring Court will go to Lucien and I just...no. Can we please let characters redeem themselves and LIVE? Not letting characters live with their redemption is such a cop out.

(Yes, I'm still bitter about Star Wars. But seriously, Tamlin isn't even a villain. At what point will these characters stop shitting on him completely with literally every other character has done some shitty things?)

[[deleted user]]

Hi! I'm thankful/ hopeful to see that this chain is not dead! I am so happy to see others who see Tamlin from a different point of view from that bitch feyre. In the first book, I admit I did like her and was very excited about the romance between her and him. As I progressed in the story I realized all the terrible things about feyre, she's easily manipulated by others and is manipulative herself. She is selfish and rude and ALWAYS plays the victim. She refuses to acknowledge all the terrible things that happen to Tamlin. I do not like the author SJM for many reasons, her way of writing out and destroying Lucien and Tamlin's friendship was beyond disgusting and horrifying.I love and appreciate Tamlin, not only that but everything he did was of good intentions and well thought out. In my opinion, feyre is the true villain in these stories. The amount of pain and suffering she caused Tamlin all because she's petty and an idiot who couldn't see past his acting skills. He is the most human of all of them, he acknowledges his mistakes and doesn't know how to ask for help. He has suffered greatly and I truly struggled when finishing the series.

[Piper]

Sorry, the previous comment is from me! my account was accidentally deleted by yours truly :)

[Nicko Mocanu]

Piper wrote: "Sorry, the previous comment is from me! my account was accidentally deleted by yours truly :)"

Aw man... how do you accidentally delete your own account? Aren't there "ATTENTION! YOU ARE ABOUT TO DO THIS! ARE YOU SURE?!" boxes?

[Piper]

Actually not for idiots like me :( I had forgotten my password so i made a new account. I'm not the most gifted in memory.

[Piper]

I should probably mention that heading into whatever this conversation is I have read ALL the messages supplied and I have yet to read a court of silver flames for fear Tamlin will continue to be kicked while he is down.

[Magdalena]

I don't want to spoil for anyone but many of the thread has read "A court of silver flames"? Tamlin let Feyre end their relation with for more grace and ease than Graysen and Elain was. Be happy Feyre and resurrects her mate Rhys. Greysen to Elain take of that ring or I will kill you. A bit overstated but Tamlin let Feyre go of his free will?

[Piper]

Ah yes I remember although I have heard a lot about a court of sliver flames I dont think i need to read it considering that Tamlin will continue to be alone and sad and that disappoints me

[Joanne]

There’s honestly not much of tamlin at all. I think referenced once or twice and then appears once. Yes still angry and alone. But really not that bad. I really like silver flames. I think it’s the best of the series. Much better writing. Can relate to the characters a lot more.

[Piper]

Joanne wrote: "There’s honestly not much of Tamlin at all. I think referenced once or twice and then appears once. Yes still angry and alone. Agh I really hate SJM It upsets so much that Tamlin cant be happy and get his vengeance. Not just that but can we all agree that Feyre SUCKS she is at fault for a lot here but all because she seems like a victim and plays the victim card she is instantly forgiven. Not to mention she is selfish and a lack of empathy and understanding. She genuinely cannot see the other perspective.

[WinterRose]

Magdalena wrote: "I don't want to spoil for anyone but many of the thread has read "A court of silver flames"? Tamlin let Feyre end their relation with for more grace and ease than Graysen and Elain was. Be happy Fe..."

Ugh, that scene with Graysen was so brutal and painful. I felt so bad for Elain, especially since he's screaming at her in front of everyone.

Also, I was re-reading the scene in ACOMAF where Feyre is throwing punches with Cassian, and she's pissed that Tamlin "sat by Amarantha's side because he didn't want to risk it" and I'm like, do you not realize Rhys did the exact same thing and more for 50 years? Sat by her side, did her bidding, KILLED and tortured for her, because it was too risky to reveal his intentions?

Like I'm not blaming Rhys but I don't get how Feyre can be such a hypocrite.

And then being pissed he didn't crawl toward her and could only beg Amarantha. Bitch, you just STABBED him in the HEART give him a second!

[Sarah]

WinterRose wrote: And then being pissed he didn't crawl toward her and could only beg Amarantha. Bitch, you just STABBED him in the HEART give him a second!

And not only that!!! She STABBED him in the HEART with a DAGGER made of ASH , aka one of the materials that can STOP a Fae from healing, thus SEVERELY wounding them.

And what was he supposed to do?! Like no seriously?! WHAT WAS HE SUPPOSED TO DO?! Amarantha had a tight leash around his neck and one wrong move could KILL EVERYONE.

I'd love to have a conversation with this hypocritical bitch and just TEAR her to absolute SHREDS in a verbal beatdown.

Hell not even verbal, I'm down for a physical fight! I want to hurl insults and punches at this narcissist who destroyed an entire court filled with INNOCENT PEOPLE all in order to just get one man.

[WinterRose]

Right? Like I really don't know what else he could have done in that moment. When he did gather his strength and got his power back, he killed her.

Feyre also has no idea what was happening to him while she was a prisoner. Though I wish we had seen his shapeshifting ability come into play, where he was able to sneak into her cell disguised as someone else. (Really, we never got to see him shift into anything but a beast, which is disappointing. Like you have a Mystique on your hands and you do nothing with it. lol)

[Sarah]

Honestly I really wanna know more about his shapeshifting abilities. Can he turn into someone else or can he only just turn into animals? Is he able to pull a Mystique and turn into a carbon copy of someone else right down to the voice? Can he just make a new identity for himself?! Can he just shift into someone who doesn't exist?

Like what can he do?!?

[Piper]

Sarah wrote: "Honestly I really wanna know more about his shapeshifting abilities. EXACTLY if hes able to shapeshift into people he could very much fake his own death and come back as someone else. Especially since he needs to get away from feyre the bitch and her husband.

[Julianna]

It is so strange to me, all the very clear similarities of Rhys's behavior toward Feyre now which were considered toxic only when it was Tamlin. I tried to explain to my friend once the hypocrisy of it all but she admitted that she was obsessed with Feysand which is what I assume most of the ACOTAR fandom is so they simply refuse to see the logic only because it gets in the way of their favorite ship. I'm just so tired of it at this point.

Is it safe to assume Sarah hasn't started on the next book? Or knows where she wants the story to go yet? I read on Instagram recently that she wasn't sure if she wanted to write a redemption story about Tam because she didn't think he deserved it or whatever. Literally, even Eris is getting sympathy but not Tam? Make it make sense! Tam is nowhere near villain level or Eris's level, she just likes to project on him because of her personal feelings about her exs!

Everyone says she has a plan, but to me, sjm is a shallow writer, there isn't a deeper meaning or a grand 'plan' for Tam, at least not yet. With these latest books, she is just digging the salt into the wound and giving the feysand tools something to giggle about. I swear, I've seen fan theories that are probably more compelling than what is actually going to happen. I understand it's her novels and she wants to project her fantasies in them, but so much actual good 'subverting the reader's expectations' possibilities are going to waste. I mean, come on, ACOSF was pretty predictable, better than the other ACOTAR books but still predictable. If she is continuing this pattern then I think we can predict where the next book is going to end up and it's just really.....disappointing.