A Court of Frost and Starlight
discussion
A case against the constant vilifying of Tamlin
FYI the first 6 chapters of ACOSF are posted. Man, I just really dislike both Nesta and Feyre. I'm ready for Elain, Azriel, Lucien, and Vassa's story.
Really, SJM needs to be told "you don't get to rewrite the narrative" because that's what she's done so badly with this series. I'm sure Rhys/Feyre was planned from the start, that's obvious, so why couldn't the fallout with Tamlin be smoother? Why did it have to be so contrived? I thought Chaol to Rowan was done much better, in comparison.
Nicko Moknu wrote: "You don’t get to rewrite the narrative,” I breathed. “You don’t get to spin this to your advantage.”"My advantage? Tell me, Feyra, does the thought of letting Hyburn slaughter their way into my court keep you up at night, or have you lost all shred of pity lingering in that blackened heart of yours?"
Holy shit. What I'd give to see that actually happen in ACOWAR. To see Tamlin defend himself and giving his side of the story and to win an argument. WHAT I'D GIVE!!!
No joke wish that was what actually happened in that book.
Spring Court feel a bit archaic with tithe and whipping. I am sure Tamlin will get a redemption. Feyre is a bit highhanded with her sisters. They should be allowed to live as they will. I don't have any sister but I would't want to live by siblings as an adult. I know Elain likes gardening and Nesta might have some monetary reward for killing the king. I like the thought of a High Lady to. It feels like Rhys is a progressive High Lord. All the High Lords are rather nice in some way.
Now Sarah, we know Tamlin isn't allowed to win an argument. We can't have that! lol I swear I have such a love hate relationship with SJM's books. My biggest gripe with this new one is the dual pov. Multiple pov is fine. But just two, between love interests, is always painful. We will have to relive their scenes twice. I still remember how awful she was at this in TOG, at least in the beginning. The ball scene in TOG (first book) was in Celaena's pov. So we hear about her dress from Celaena's pov. Then it goes to Dorian, and we hear about her dress again. Then it goes to Chaol and ONCE AGAIN we have to hear about that damn dress. Three times, the same scene. I just find that painful.
@Magdalena - I'd like to hear more about the actual court, personally. All we really saw was Tamlin's house. We have no idea what towns and cities dwell in there. We know there are some small villages, but that's it. Surely there's actual cities and towns. I don't think SJM fleshed out the court good enough in general.
The entire court isn't just ran by Tamlin. A court is going to have other high ranking positions that help run the court--treasurer, military advisors and commanders, spymaster, etc. I guess you could chalk it up to Tamlin keeping Feyre in the dark, but I think it's annoying how it's implied "everyone" abandoned him when we don't know who this "everyone" even is.
Now I don't really mind dual pov and rereading the same scene from different perspectives. That's just me though, I just find it rather interesting to see how people react to the same scenario.WinterRose wrote: "I guess you could chalk it up to Tamlin keeping Feyre in the dark, but I think it's annoying how it's implied "everyone" abandoned him when we don't know who this "everyone" even is."
I agree. It's also another sign of SJM's bias and preferring Velaris over Spring. It seems like she has that "Oh, why should I flesh out the Spring Court when Velaris is SO much better. Feyre won't even come back anyway!" mindset.
Also what happened to Alis? That tree bark girl who worked for Tam? I can't remember.
I find it interesting to get the other POV after the series is done, like a bonus. But not so much the entire book. Takes away the mystery if I know how everyone feels constantly. I like to be in the dark with the narrator so to say. In general I feel like SJM didn’t flesh out acotar compared to tog. Tog felt more like a fantasy world. Acotar borders urban fantasy too much for me. But definitely she neglected Spring.
Alis left for Summer Court with her nephews in acofwar. Tamlin did a good thing for her when he took her in.
@Magdalena Oh ok. I actually really liked her... Hopefully she's ok.
Let me Point out that the inner circle don't mind boozing themselves and for sure are having a lot of sexual intercousre. Pot calling black to kettle?
Sarah wrote: "Holy shit. What I'd give to see that actually happen in ACOWAR. To see Tamlin defend himself and giving his side of the story and to win an argument. WHAT I'D GIVE!!!"When writing that line I actually channeled, not Tamlin, because Tamlin is not like that, I channeled one of the characters from my personal Fantasy Project (used to be a novel, may become a graphic novel we'll see) who is called Aneeril Amrath, moniker "the Scarred King". He is a bitter character, very authoritative with a knack for completely demolishing people on a verbal level.
Who looks like this:
I might have missed it but did anyone hear about the leaked chapters? I didn’t read them but my friend was telling me Tumblr fans were angry at SJM for having people like Feyre, Rhys, and Mor gang up on Nesta. More kicking while someone is down I guess.
Briana wrote: "More kicking while someone is down I guess."All her characters are like that, preying on characters just for the hell of it. I might read it, I might not and just wait for the book to come out. But it does not surprise me, I mean... it's a habit of hers. Tamlin is proof of it from ACOMAF onwards.
I skimmed it and read mostly the dialogue. Cassian's pov is a bit painful if I'm honest. Too lusty already and again, we get some repeated thoughts so 700+ pages of that will just about kill me, haha.Tumblr is full of Nesta stans so naturally they're upset if anyone says anything remotely negative toward Nesta. I don't want to spoil anyone who hasn't read it but...I think SJM set up her plot device in a way that makes everyone pretty OOC if I'm honest.
WinterRose wrote: "I think SJM set up her plot device in a way that makes everyone pretty OOC if I'm honest."I figured she would do that. Me and my friends were talking about that. She tends to make everyone around her MC completely insufferable. Or she is always extreme with plots. When she wants us to like someone then they're the most special snowflake in the world but when she wants us to dislike someone or focus on her MC then everyone else is up for attack.
Briana wrote: "I might have missed it but did anyone hear about the leaked chapters? I didn’t read them but my friend was telling me Tumblr fans were angry at SJM for having people like Feyre, Rhys, and Mor gang ..."Honestly I'm not surprised.
Sarah wrote: "Honestly I'm not surprised."Me neither.
Well it is interesting to see the IC from other POV. I wonder what Sarah really thinks of Tamlin. But I did read a interview where she calls him a super controlling alphahole. But he has good potential and is a lot more clever than people gives him credit for as he fooled Hybern. https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertai...
That interview disgusts me on so many different levels. Mainly the talk about sex. Listen, graphic and detailed smut scenes should not be in a YA book. Period.
The entire ACOTAR and on that note TOG too should have never been categorised as YA. It should have been New Adult.
Ugh, her use of the word alphahole is so annoying. I remember Bryce using it. What's weird to me is Tamlin doesn't even strike me that much as a true alpha male. I mean, he does have some controlling issues, but some of his thoughts were actually logical? And so much of his behavior is because he is absolutely terrified of yet again, watching someone he loves die? Not bc he just wants the power of control. Interesting interview though, thanks for sharing! This might sound odd, but does it seem like SJM is trying REALLY hard to push this idea of "equals" with her ships? Not that you shouldn't want that, but you don't need to spoon feed readers weird dialogue that one would probably actually say to prove it. I didn't notice this so much with the TOG characters but man, Rhys really laid it on thick and I'm sure Hunt did too. Seems like a more recent trend with SJM.
I mean, imagine if she had said "Rhys, I think I'm just going to go fight Hybern myself because I'm a WaRrRiOr" And he said something like "of course my love, that is your choice and I support your choice!" Lmao like would you support her when she's dead because she isn't experienced enough for that? I'm sorry but you can still say no to your partner.
Also also, since when was Tamlin controlling in Book 1? From what I've read he was just an antisocial dude who didn't want to be High Lord who also seems to be going through depression and mood swings.
And having mental illness or aggressive mood swings does not automatically make you a monster. It's not 'proof' that he's 'bad and evil'. It's proof that he's suffering and that he needs help.
^ I agree. I think you could make the case for book 2, but book 1 is a bit of a stretch considering the circumstances of the curse. I think you have to give Tamlin and even Rhys a bit of slack for book 1 actions. If I was in Rhys's position, I'd do more than twist Feyre's stubborn bones if she was the only shot I had at freedom lol. I don't get why sometimes it's "Under the Mountain broke Tamlin and he's not coping" and other times it's "Omg Tamlin is a controlling asshole." Like you'd think Feyre would recognize the root of Tamlin's behavior comes from the fear of losing everything he loves--again. Doesn't mean his decisions are right, but his intention is not monstrous.
WinterRose wrote: "If I was in Rhys's position, I'd do more than twist Feyre's stubborn bones if she was the only shot I had at freedom lol."LMFAO. SAME. If I were in the faeries position I would not hesitate to even stab Feyre if it meant freedom for my people.
WinterRose wrote: "Doesn't mean his decisions are right, but his intention is not monstrous."Interviews like this give great insight into an author's mind and how they view their stories and characters. Here, the fact that she is a superficial author is mirrored so well in how she talks about her characters and especially the themes of her novels. An author cannot play favorites with their characters, because then the characters become satelites and have no real personality, motivation or personal story of their own.
For an exact opposite of what you read there, I would recommend Brandon Sanderson's interviews and university lectures on creative writing to see how this man's mind works when engaging in wordcrafting. Not only is he super like-able as a person, but his ideas are solid and you can see them on the page :D.
Tamlin is not evil and he was just not was Feyre needed. I woldn't like to sit inside in a manor all day sewing or gossiping like fine ladies did like 150 years ago. There are real evil people in the book. And Feyre might explain to the Spring people that she decived them?
^ I agree, people are exaggerating Tamlin's deeds and act as though he is the worst person to have ever been born as though other characters didn't do shit.They're too caught up in their own personal prejudices that they're blind to the real villains and actual threats.
Tamlin isn't a threat. He's got nothing left. Don't bother him and he won't bother you.
No matter how much I think about it, I can't imagine anything SJM might possibly be thinking for the future of this series.Let' s say we're lucky and we do get a Tamlin novel/novella and redemption. Well sjm has been constantly shoveling down the fandom's throat about how Tam is evil, how he is the worst, how he deserves nothing. ACOFAS was a painfully long beating of a dead horse of how we should hate Tam and think of him as pitiful-that being said, those of us who actually take a minute to actually think about characters and are not a part of the Court of Double Standards (as i call them), would be all for it but I don't think this book will be received well by the general ACOTAR fandom at all. And if the majority of the fans don't care or don't want to read about Tam then will sjm ever actually write it?
[trigger warning about mental health in this next paragraph!!]
Can we also take a minute to talk about labeling people with mental illnesses as evil and deserving of death??? Everyone will say, oh who cares it's Tamlin and we just hate him and maybe even sjm would have that rationale but as the author whether she realizes it or not, she has written Tam to suffer severe mental health problems especially after all that he has gone through, and I the reader am supposed to be overjoyed with Tamlin suffering eternally or getting killed off? SJM are you kidding me? Why isn't Tam deserving of a character redemption? is he just the go-to laughingstock villain?
And once again, I have to point out in the novels that not once-not Feyre or anyone else ever mention or think about how Tam might have suffered. How broken he is and that maybe he needs help? No, Feyre was the ONLY victim and it's all Tam's fault. This is what confuses me about SJM, if we are supposed to hate Tam then why did she write him the way he did? Yes Tam is pitiful and has some serious toxic masculinity problems but he isn't this psycho abuser that the rest of the fandom loves to preach about. Especially when Rhys had and HAS abusive tendencies. But that means nothing in the Court of Double Standards.
To be honest, the ACOTAR fandom is so incredibly toxic. Every time I see artists say they want to make fanart of Tam or Elain they also mention how they are afraid of the backlash. SJM has cultivated this bizarre fandom to hate a character that is not deserving of all this strange hate. I guess people like their shallow colorless characters or can't see past the closed minded POV of the untrustworthy narrator that is Feyre and her court god-complex jerks.
I think this may have already been spoken about before but, another thing I was thinking about the other day but forgot to mention to you guys, was the depth of Feyre's fickleness. (I don't have direct quotes so take everything I say with a certain grain of salt) but in the first book, I feel like Feyre made a big deal about challenging Amarantha, not just for Tam's sake but for the people of the Spring Court. For a moment she seemed to view the members of the Spring Court as her people. That she wanted to go home with Tam AND her people.Then we flash forward to the second book where Feyre is put off by how the people of the Spring Court view/treat her. And when she moves to Velaris, suddenly they are 'her people' because for some reason that god only knows why, they understand her more or whatever even though they probably only treat her differently because they know she's with Rhys.
Then it got me thinking about how the Spring Court suffered under the mountain too? Like no wonder they treat Feyre the way they do, almost god-like, considering she helped end their suffering and now they suffer from PTSD as well but since Feyre doesn't love Tam anymore so she could care less about the innocents in the Spring Court and turn them against their leader and ruin their own court. And no shit Feyre that the people of Velaris are different, none of them ever went through the horrors of Amarantha because they were always protected, they had never seen war like the other courts so of course they are going to see her differently. But of course the only 'good' people are those who conform to Feyre's standards of beliefs or are attached to Rhys. What do I know anyway? It's so obvious that Velaris is supposed to be the 'better than everyone else' kind of place that it comes off as incredibly tone-deaf and condescending. I think this just goes back to what you guys said earlier about sjm being very superficial.
Just going back to this:WinterRose wrote: "Another annoying that I noticed is every time Tamlin made a legitimate point, SJM throws in a one liner to remind us he's "crazy." Examples:"
I always knew they never took him seriously but when all these dialogs are stacked up in this way.... SJM seriously has a bone to pick with her own character that is Tamlin. All of his words were so true but SJM somehow manages to take something of meaning and turn it into a joke. And if those dialogs were switched around we wouldn't hear the end of how much those characters are such a Queen or King for saying those things. The amount of times I eyeroll about the things SJM does, I'm surprised my eyes aren't stuck in that position.
Regarding her interview - I watched the beginning of a recent instagram live of hers and honestly her attitude and the way she speaks is .... for a lack of a more appropriate word, disgusting. She seems so obsessed with sex, weird ass sex. She should be in erotica and certainly not ya. And then all that talk of equality in relationships, I feel like she doesnt even know what equality is.
@Julianna I love how you refer to them as the Court of Double Standards lol very appropriate and fitting.
I really dont think the fandom will like a Tamlin book, it will probably be as hated as Tower of Dawn in tog, purely because everyone hated Chaol (why is it that I always find myself loving the characters the rest of the world hates, sigh). It will become another trend, the fandom will state all the books they are re-reading and mention how they skip acotar and if we ever get it, the Tamlin book. Who wants a book that properly fleshes out a morally grey character when you can just have more horny scenes by the MOST powerful and the MOST handsome and the MOST perfect man in all the world ... sigh...
To be honest, I feel like SJM doesnt see Tamlin as someone with mental health issues. I feel like she's just labelled him an alphahole (rolls eyes for the millionth time) and thats it, thats his personality. Its not mental, hes just an alphahole and we must hate characters that are alpha because this means that we arent their equal. The end. Sigh. ... I dont even see the alphaholeness but whatever...
Feyre is a selfish and disloyal asshole with a major inflation of that ego of hers. I cannot stand that woman.
It's so incredible sad to see artists paint Tamlin. Whenever I see artworks of him there's always a long ass caption explaining why they like him and how they dont condone is behavior, etc, etc. Because if you dont explain yourself the fandom is going to come for you. 🙄 ... fuck the fandom!
@Ashara A Court of Double Standards or the Court of Hypocrites because I can't stand them anymore lol. I am also very shocked that my face hasn't fixated in a permanent state of scowling or irritation after the absolute 'sjm-isms' I've read. Let me tell you, while reading her books I've almost sighed so hard to knock the wind right out of my lungs.I hate how right you are, and I just don't get it. You would think people would love actual character development and a good story but no, just this endless Feysand jerkfest that I am exhausted at reading about. There is so much potential there with Tam and literally any of the other courts, but no. 'Tamlin bad' and the rest of the fandom follows suit while putting Feysand up on this pedestal they definitely don't deserve to be on. Which is why I was confused as to why people love ACOFAS so much? Half of the book is Feyre bragging about how rich they are and the other half is Rhys being annoyingly horny 24/7. With each book, sjm makes me like Rhys a whole lot less. Her whole, here is a morally grey character who is kinda a villain but JUST KIDDING he was actually a good guy this whole time and is a wonderful person. I think that really diminished his character into something bland and unconvincing. Instead of a character with depth, Rhys is now this soulless husk of horniness who only exists for fan service now and to remind us to hate Tam.
Also, briefly talking about them being rich, I love how in the book where Feyre is talking about how some parts of the city will take many many years to rebuild and then in the first chapter of ACOSF her whole ass mansion was fully built and I'm assuming the events of ACOSF occurs not long after the winter solstice, I just think about how narcissistic these people are. With all the money Feyre mentions constantly, you would think Rhys would use is to build his entire city back up immediately because apparently, he has the ability to, it seems like he doesn't want to.
I think you are spot on, and god did I cringe at 'alphahole'. ACOTAR is the only SJM series I've read so I didn't know that was an actual term she coined but should I be surprised with her? And I absolutely agree, Tam doesn't come close to an alphahole but Rhys does with his weird dominance god-complex in this fake veil of 'feminism' (he's not a feminist in the slightest, don't get me started lol). It seems like SJM is trying too hard to be progressive instead of actually giving her characters flaws and depths and growth to being an actual progressive instead of odd extremes.
You know, Ive been wondering, to me Feyre's narcissism is so blatantly apparent, I wonder if sjm sees it? I wonder does she approve, does she think that all of her behavior is justified and correct or does she recognize that her main faves are toxic? I worry about what the answer might be.
I didn't realize how bad the fandom was until I tried to participate online. This is one of the most toxic book fandoms I've ever seen, it literally baffles me.
Ok, I once mentioned that I noticed 'lines' that proves that Tam may not be in a good mental state BEFORE events of UTM and these are the lines. Warning, THIS WILL BE VERY LONG.~
Lucien slumped in his seat, wholly undignified for a Fae lord. “Tamlin gets into … moods.”
“He doesn’t want your help hunting the Bogge?”
“He prefers being alone. And having the Bogge on our lands … I don’t suppose you’d understand. The puca are minor enough not to bother him, but even after he’s shredded the Bogge, he’ll brood over it.”
“And there’s no one who can help him at all?”
“He would probably shred them for disobeying his order to stay away.”
~
“Did you kill the Bogge?” My voice was hardly more than a whisper.
“Yes.” A dull, empty answer. As if he couldn’t be bothered to remember to be pleasant. As if I were at the very, very bottom of a long list of priorities.
“You’re hurt,” I said even more quietly.
Indeed, his hand was covered in blood, even more splattering on the floor beneath him. He looked at it blankly— as if it took some monumental effort to remember that he even had a hand, and that it was injured. What effort of will and strength had it taken to kill the Bogge, to face that wretched menace? How deep had he had to dig inside himself—to whatever immortal power and animal that lived there—to kill it?
He glanced down at the map on the table, and his voice was void of anything—any emotion, any anger or amusement—as he said, “What is that?”
~
I thought of what Lucien had told me about his isolation, that burden, thought of what Tamlin had mentioned about how these estates should not have been his, and felt … sorry for him.
(Yeah, sure Feyre, you feel sorry for him)
~
“I just want to know what you think you’re doing.” It was Lucien—that familiar lazy viciousness coating each word.
“What are you doing?” Tamlin snapped. Through the space between the hinge and the door I could glimpse the two of them standing almost face-to-face. On Tamlin’s nonbandaged hand, his claws shone in the morning light.
“Me?” Lucien put a hand on his chest. “By the Cauldron, Tam—there isn’t much time, and you’re just sulking and glowering. You’re not even trying to fake it anymore.”
My brows rose. Tamlin turned away but whirled back a moment later, his teeth bared. “It was a mistake from the start. I can’t stomach it, not after what my father did to their kind, to their lands. I won’t follow in his footsteps—won’t be that sort of person. So back off.”
“Back off? Back off while you seal our fates and ruin everything? I stayed with you out of hope, not to watch you stumble. For someone with a heart of stone, yours is certainly soft these days. The Bogge was on our lands—the Bogge, Tamlin! The barriers between courts have vanished, and even our woods are teeming with filth like the puca. Are you just going to start living out there, slaughtering every bit of vermin that slinks in?”
“Watch your mouth,” Tamlin said.
Lucien stepped toward him, exposing his teeth as well. A pulsing kind of air hit me in the stomach, and a metallic stench filled my nose. But I couldn’t see any magic—only feel it. I couldn’t tell if that made it worse.
“Don’t push me, Lucien.” Tamlin’s tone became dangerously quiet, and the hair on the back of my neck stood as he emitted a growl that was pure animal. “You think I don’t know what’s happening on my own lands? What I’ve got to lose? What’s lost already?”
~
I didn’t ask Tamlin anything more about the naga—about how many he’d killed before those four slipped away—didn’t ask him anything at all, because I didn’t detect a trace of triumph in him, but rather a deep, unending sort of shame and defeat.
~
“What would happen if I were to drink the water?”
Tamlin straightened a bit—then relaxed, as if glad to release that old sadness. “Legend claims you’d be happy until your last breath.” He added, “Perhaps we both need a glass.”
(When I first read this line my heart legit shattered. So subtle yet it speaks volume about his pain)
~
Not a sad quote but a memorable quote in general:
“If it grieves you,” he said, the words caressing my bones, “then I don’t think it’s absurd at all.”
~
“I’d realized from an early age that fighting and killing were about the only things I was good at.”
~
My mother, I mourned. The others …” A too tight shrug. “My brothers would not have tried to save me from a fate like yours.”
~
My favourite:
He picked up the small painting of the frozen forest and examined it again. “I’ve had many lovers,” he admitted. “Females of noble birth, warriors, princesses …” Rage hit me, low and deep in the gut at the thought of them—rage at their titles, their undoubtedly good looks, at their closeness to him. “But they never understood. What it was like, what it is like, for me to care for my people, my lands. What scars are still there, what the bad days feel like.”
That wrathful jealousy faded away like morning dew as he smiled at my painting. “This reminds me of it.”
“Of what?” I breathed.
He lowered the painting, looking right at me, right into me. “That I’m not alone.”
(In this scene alone he mentions scars, 'bad days' and loneliness. Goddamn the bad days line really broke me...)
And on that note, I've got two paragraphs from Alis further cementing my point that Tamlin is not fine.~
“When she first cursed him, Tamlin sent one of his men across the wall every day. To the woods, to farms, all disguised as wolves to make it more likely for one of your kind to want to kill them. If they came back, it was with stories of human girls who ran and screamed and begged, who didn’t even lift a hand. When they didn’t come back—Tamlin’s bond with them as their Lord and master told him they’d been killed by others. Human hunters, older women, perhaps. For two years he sent them out, day after day, having to pick who crossed the wall. When all but a dozen of them were left, it broke him so badly he stopped. Called it all off. And since then, Tamlin has been here, defending his borders as chaos and disorder ruled in the other courts under Amarantha’s thumb. The other High Lords fought back, too. Forty years ago, she executed three of them and most of their families for banding together against her.”
~
“He tried,” Alis said. “Even with her spies, he tried finding
ways to break the curse, to do anything against it, against
having to send his men out again to be slaughtered by humans.
He thought that if the human girl loved true, then bringing her
here to free him was another form of slavery. And he thought
that if he did indeed fall in love with her, Amarantha would do
everything she could to destroy her, as her sister had been
destroyed. So he spent decades refusing to do it, to even risk it.
But this winter, with months to go, he just … snapped. He sent the last of his men out, one by one. And they were willing—
they had begged him to go, all these years. Tamlin was
desperate to save his people, desperate enough to risk the lives
of his men, risk that human girl’s life to save us. Three days in,
Andras finally ran into a human girl in a clearing—and you
killed him with hate in your heart.”
These are great finds! I saw in a review of Silver Flames someone said something about Tamlin might have some involvement coming up, so I figured that was good news. I agree though, he has been struggling for some time and for some reason, he's not allowed to suffer mental illness like the rest of them.While this is random, I've been reading leaks of Silver flames and saw the bonus Azriel POV that's leading to the next book and I'm REALLY curious what ya'll are going to think about it lol. I'm glad I found this group because I feel like we can discuss the characters (all of them) without pitchforks flying at our heads.
WinterRose wrote: "These are great finds! I saw in a review of Silver Flames someone said something about Tamlin might have some involvement coming up, so I figured that was good news. I agree though, he has been str..."Aww thank you!! Also agree about the pitchforks, you can't have an opinion in this fandom unless it conforms with the majority of the fandom.
Sarah wrote: "Ok, I once mentioned that I noticed 'lines' that proves that Tam may not be in a good mental state BEFORE events of UTM and these are the lines. Warning, THIS WILL BE VERY LONG.~
Lucien slumped ..."
Wow. Just....wow. I first read this book a few months ago and rereading your excerpts felt like a punch to the gut. These are really heartbreaking, especially your favorite pick. Not gonna lie, I might have cried a bit reading them now. Tamlin has always been abandoned, always had this massive burden on him and when he finally thought he found something good, he went way too far in trying to keep her that he lost her like everything and everyone else.
I think your excerpts also bring up an interesting side point to our argument that Tam isn't this massive villain. There he seems to really despise killing even the lesser fae, or killing in general. Which would go against everyone's protest that he is evil because he killed Rhys's family (which it was never stated that HE did) and think in those excerpts I feel like he remembers Rhys's mother and still regrets what happened and his involvement. He isn't the terrible monster who was awful to precious Rhysand. God, it really hurts to see that we have a true morally grey character who gets no attention or redemption. If Rhys did all the things Tam did you better believe the fandom wouldn't bat an eyelash.
To be honest, this thread is like my safe place. You guys read and understand how ridiculous this Tamlin hate is and we are unfortunately few. Wish people could see past their faves sometimes.I'm really nervous about any Tam involvement in ACOSF. I don't want to read what I read in ACOFAS again. If Tam is just in there so the characters and sjm can continually shit on him, then I don't want it. It physically makes me ill.
Guys, I found out a bit about Tamlin. Let me know if you want me to post about it in a spoilers tag.
I am also conscious of how Tamlin is viewed in ACOSF. Have read one mention of him so far.. maybe give it a few days then start discussing it? I’m cautious but keen to see if the author can redeem herself with the Tamlin story line.
Judging by what you both have said so far I am going to assume that the mention of him is.....negative. Or perhaps disappointing.Ugh I don't get my copy until Saturday!!!! This is torture!!!
Also I forgot to add lines from ACOFAS, these are definitely the worst seeing as its Tam at his very lowest.~
Tamlin answered the door himself.
I wasn’t sure what to remark on: the haggard male before me, or the dark house behind him.
An easy mark. Too easy of a mark, to mock the once-fine clothes desperate for a wash, the shaggy hair that needed a trim. The empty manor, not a servant in sight, no Solstice decorations to be found.
The green eyes that met mine weren’t the ones I was accustomed to, either. Haunted and bleak. Not a spark.
~
“Lucien claimed you would come,” Tamlin said by way of greeting, voice as flat and lifeless as his eyes, a hand still braced on the door.
“Funny, I thought his mate was the seer.”
Tamlin only stared at me, either ignoring or missing the humor. “What do you want.”
~
I made a good show of surveying the books, the vaulted, painted ceiling. “Where’s my dear friend Lucien?”
“Hunting for our dinner.”
“No taste for such things these days?”
Tamlin’s eyes remained dull. “He left before I was awake.”
~
I rose from the chair, Tamlin not bothering to stand. “You
brought every bit of this upon yourself,” I said, my voice still
soft. I didn’t need to yell to convey my rage. I never had.
“You won,” he spat, sitting forward. “You got your mate. Is
that not enough?”
“No.”
The word echoed through the library.
“You nearly destroyed her. In every way possible.”
Tamlin bared his teeth. I bared mine back, temper be damned. Let some of my power rumble through the room, the house, the grounds.
“She survived it, though. Survived you. And you still felt the need to humiliate her, belittle her. If you meant to win her back, old friend, that wasn’t the wisest route.”
“Get out.”
I wasn’t finished. Not even close. “You deserve everything that has befallen you. You deserve this pathetic, empty house, your ravaged lands. I don’t care if you offered that kernel of life to save me, I don’t care if you still love my mate. I don’t care that you saved her from Hybern, or a thousand enemies before that.” The words poured out, cold and steady. “I hope you live the rest of your miserable life alone here. It’s a far more satisfying end than slaughtering you.” Feyre had once arrived at the same decision. I’d agreed with her then, still did, but now I truly understood.
Tamlin’s green eyes went feral.
I braced for it, readied for it—wanted it. For him to explode out of that chair and launch himself at me, for his claws to start slashing.
My blood hammered in my veins, my power coiling inside me.
We could wreck this house in our fight. Bring it down to rubble. And then I’d turn the stones and wood into nothing but black dust.
But Tamlin only stared. And after a heartbeat, his eyes lowered to the desk. “Get out.”
I blinked, the only sign of my surprise. “Not in the mood
for a brawl, Tamlin?”
He didn’t bother to look at me again. “Get out” was all he
said.
A broken male.
Broken, from his own actions, his own choices.
It was not my concern. He did not deserve my pity.
But as I winnowed away, the dark wind ripping around me,
a strange sort of hollowness took root in my stomach.
Tamlin didn’t have shields around the house. None to
prevent anyone from winnowing in, to guard against enemies
appearing in his bedroom and slitting his throat.
It was almost as if he was waiting for someone to do it.
Who ever put Amren in the Prison?
I call this series the "The Tragedy of Tamlain"Once you detach yourself from Freye's perspective and start to think of why Tamlain does what he does given the context. It's just a really long tragic tale of Tamlain being broken down and losing everything until he has nothing, even the will to live.
What makes it really depressing, is that he's not even a bad guy. His actions cause bad things to happen. But he never does things with evil intentions.
Y'all... heads up. Tamlin is in the new book. ( Finished it in two days because I have no self control))
No spoilers...but its not good.
I pretty much agree with all of your points. Though I do have fun with her books, SJM has proven time and time again that she is a lazy writer who has no interest in developing complex plots. For some reason, she had to completely demonize Tamlin (who I don't think is perfect by the way) to make Rhys seem god-like. Also, the fact that they always made him seem completely unreasonable was always annoying. When he explained why he helped lure the IC to Hybern (if you take a step back from Feyre's perspective) it made sense. In his eyes, his fiancee was being mentally manipulated (remember Rhys has the power to manipulate people's minds) into staying in the Night Court. Even though she sent that note, I still don't think it was completely irrational for Tamlin to think it was fake because, again, the Night Court has been keeping up a ruse that they are evil and dangerous when they really aren't. So in his eyes, Feyre is in trouble and he went to extreme lengths to try and save her because in his eyes she needed saving.
SJM could have let them split amicably. If not, she could have let them split without making Tamlin out to be the devil. I want her to stop being scared of complex plot lines.
I have to constantly remind myself that it's not necessarily the characters I have problems with, it's the person who wrote them lol.
Nadia wrote: "Y'all... heads up. Tamlin is in the new book. ( Finished it in two days because I have no self control))
No spoilers...but its not good."
Yeah, I figured as much. Last we saw of him here, he was basically just waiting to die.
Heartbreaking really.
Nadia wrote: "Y'all... heads up. Tamlin is in the new book. ( Finished it in two days because I have no self control))
No spoilers...but its not good."
Scale of 1 to 10 how bad is it?
Ola wrote: "SJM could have let them split amicably. If not, she could have let them split without making Tamlin out to be the devil."Honestly, SJM should have just given Tamlin some sort of glorious death in ACOWAR, that would have been a mercy. Seeing him just utterly broken and worse being kicked while he was down by Rhys was just all-around depressing and cruel.
Sarah wrote: "Nadia wrote: "Y'all... heads up. Tamlin is in the new book. ( Finished it in two days because I have no self control))
No spoilers...but its not good."
Scale of 1 to 10 how bad is it?"
Its a 1. Its absolutely horrific what SJM did to him.
Nadia wrote: "Its a 1. Its absolutely horrific what SJM did to him."Welp, can't say I'm surprised. He's basically been her punching bag since ACOMAF.
Nadia wrote: "Its a 1. Its absolutely horrific what SJM did to him."
Ok, 1 is not that bad. I've read all the spoilers on Tumblr that I can find and I'm glad that I didn't buy it.
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Oh, this angers me to no end.
I had forgotten how self-righteous Feyra is in ACOWAR and how much she plays the victim card.
Tamlin is entirely in the right there and has every right to call Feyra out for what she did to the Spring Court, but of course, because it's Feyra's perspective, she has the final say, she is the victim and he the villain.
You know what I bemoan the most about Tamlin, is that Maas deliberately made him unable to win verbal arguements unlike Nesta.
Because if she had, his reply would be something along the lines of this:
"You don’t get to rewrite the narrative,” I breathed. “You don’t get to spin this to your advantage.”
"My advantage? Tell me, Feyra, does the thought of letting Hyburn slaughter their way into my court keep you up at night, or have you lost all shred of pity lingering in that blackened heart of yours?"
(Sorry there's a lot of venom in those words there. That's mine.)