A Court of Frost and Starlight
discussion
A case against the constant vilifying of Tamlin
I’m about 2/3 of the way through ACOMAF and I’m so dismayed by the abrupt and weird turn it took from the first book. I didn’t really know much about the series when I started ACOTAR, but I enjoyed it, especially once the Beauty and the Beast parallels started coming into play. I knew the series would deviate eventually, but did not expect...this.
Like many of you I was upset and confused at the way Tamlin was suddenly a complete jerk/mess/villain in ACOMAF after reading the first book where he was presented as overall kind, strong, and desirable. (Excuse my poor ability to express myself right now. I really should be sleeping.)
I’m also highly confused by the huge change in tone and use of language between ACOTAR and ACOMAF. In the first, the writing clearly suggests a the story is set at least a couple centuries ago. It fit with the premise of the book and, again, worked well with the Beauty and the Beast theme. So, unless I missed something, why does ACOMAF have so many contemporary references?
ACOMAF also has the feel of an “edgy” YA novel, which is not what I signed up for with this series. Overall, I’m just highly confused and growing steadily annoyed that I got attached to Tamlin for no reason.
Emily wrote: "I’m about 2/3 of the way through ACOMAF and I’m so dismayed by the abrupt and weird turn it took from the first book. I didn’t really know much about the series when I started ACOTAR, but I enjoy..."
Welcome to the disgruntled club, and the minority of the fandom. When I read it as well, I was shocked too. Tamlin's character makes an entire 180. Honestly, I believe that 1) Tamlin is a very broken person, he has severe PTSD and also isn't very good at sorting out his emotions/feelings in a healthy way. 2) SJM needed Tam out of the way to make room for Rhys so she makes him a 'villain' just to serve that purpose. But that is all my opinion and the only thing I can think of as to the 'why' she did it. Even though it really goes against the character. Although as some people would say: "that's the point. Tamlin is an abuser, he is supposed to seem good." to which I say the same thing about Rhys. But that is rant for another day. People excuse Tam's character assassination as 'he's an abuser, so of course we were misled.' Even though, again, I don't believe he is as evil as everyone makes him out to be. Not saying what he did was right, but he never hurt Feyre like Rhys did so there's that...
For the time period, since the book isn't set in our world so there is no clear boundary of what is contemporary and what is old? And if you are referring to Velaris, Velaris is supposed to be the coveted 'modern and progressive' city so it will have a more contemporary infrastructure because it is supposed to be this amazing wondrous city compared to the Spring Court which to my recollection, wasn't noted to have the same kind of infrastructure or culture. I think the Spring Court was supposed to feel 'archaic' to reinforce the idea that Tamlin's cultures and ideals are outdated and such.
That is sjm's style! She'll make you like a character and then completely change them into something else. I've picked up that that is a recurring theme in her books. Never get attached to the first male love interest you meet, my friend.
It’s funny you mention the modernism Emily because I thought the same thing. Especially by the time we got to ACOFAS. And it’s Not just that say Velaris is more technologically advanced, it’s the language of the narration and dialogue that I noticed. Modern phrases being used and things like Feyre wearing big sweaters, leggings and boots. I’m convinced it’s because SJM was working on Crescent City at the same time which is more urban fantasy and she couldn’t keep the voices separate. It really pulled me out of the world unfortunately.
Regarding Lucien, I think he’ll get his moment to shine in Elains book. So maybe he’s only a small role here? He’s one of my favorites too and I hate the 180 she did with him and his relationship with Tamlin. Lucien was never subservient to Tamlin in acotar then suddenly he is and is timid? That’s not due to Tamlin getting his power back that’s due to inconsistent writing. Really, Feyre could have realistically left Tamlin based on Tamlins actual flaws and not exaggerated ones. We didn’t need to 180 his character.
"For the time period, since the book isn't set in our world so there is no clear boundary of what is contemporary and what is old?"Thanks for the confirmation about Velaris. Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember it being described as modern or some such, but I think I was too confused and disappointed to really pay much attention to those details.
I'm not sure if I've read any other of Maas' books (I read a ton of this and related genres in high school and can't remember half of it anymore), but I'm very reluctant to seek out more with what I've heard about them. Which is kind of disappointing since I was looking forward to reading a new series. It seemed so promising at first.
Anyway, thank you for the information!
"It’s funny you mention the modernism Emily because I thought the same thing."Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking! Even when Feyre was still in the Spring Court, the tone, terminology, and way of speaking in ACOFAS was notably different. I know this is a weird thing to notice, but in the first couple pages when a toilet was mentioned, it completely threw me off. There wasn't any mention of things like that in the first book that I can remember.
I also found it weird when Feyre's language changed, from the beginning of ACOFAS, but especially once she was with Rhysand. It didn't make sense to me that her vocabulary would change so dramatically in just a few days.
It's funny that you mentioned the clothes, because I just read a chapter last night where Feyre is wearing an "oversized sweater". For some reason, along with all the other inconsistencies, really ticked me off.
Although this is more just preference, I wish Maas had stayed with the original era from ACOTAR. It fit with the fairy tale vibe much better. And honestly, there's already so many YA novels out there (although some of the content in this series obviously is more geared for adults), with edgy, sarcastic characters, that carry it off much better. This has a weird mix of adult and immaturity that just doesn't quite fit.
Apologies for my rambling rant!
All Feyre needed to complete her look was a Starbucks coffee and iPhone to take some selfies for her IG. Lol I agree though, a more classical medieval fantasy seems more appropriate. I literally thought the same thing about the toilet! That was the first thing that made me scratch my head. It just takes me out of the world too much.
WinterRose wrote: "Regarding Lucien, I think he’ll get his moment to shine in Elains book. So maybe he’s only a small role here? He’s one of my favorites too and I hate the 180 she did with him and his relationship w..."wasnt a toilet mentioned in ACOMAF? I was also sure that in the same book that was when the mentions of 'leggings' and 'sweaters' and stuff started which actually did surprise me. I just wrote it off that it was because Velaris was so wildly different than the Spring Court which is supposed to be 'backward' I suppose.
And I wasn't aware that Elain was getting her own book. Which I have to admit I'm not really that excited for. I highly doubt that she'll end up with Lucien and I think Lucien deserves so much better, romantically and friend wise. And I think Azriel deserves better than Elain while were at it as well. I'd rather read a book about Tamlin and Lucien mending their relationship and rebuilding their Court and moving forward in a positive direction. But with sjm, I think that is too much to ask. Wishful thinking :')
Yes, the toilet (and modern outfits) came into play in ACOMAF. So did the more modern language, I think. I could maybe excuse the toilet, even though it really still doesn't fit for me, but the clothing was just too similar to how we dress today. I mean, I wear leggings, boots and long sweaters daily lol.SJM hasn't technically announced Elain's book--I just assume she will get one since Nesta is getting one. I'm actually more excited for Elain's story than Nesta's. I'm interested in her Seer abilities, and I'm just more invested in her than Nesta. Plus, I want to see what happens with Azriel, Lucien, Vassa, the band of misfits--she's kinda tied to all of that and I like all those characters.
To bat a bit for Elain, I think she's often overlooked because she's not as "typical" for YA fantasy females. Maybe I just need a break from the Aelin's of fantasy lol. But I admire someone who can go through suffering and hardship and still come out kind and gentle. Plus, she did kill the king. I have to give her credit for that.
I don't think her and Lucien fit at all and I hope they just quickly realize this and can move forward with relationships that make more sense for them. For Lucien, I think that's Vassa. A fierce, strong willed queen. For Elain, I do think that's Azriel. There's an understanding between them, and a sort of...sense of contentment and comfort. I honestly love their dynamic and scenes together.
Elain is stronger than she gets credit for I think bc it's a different strength than we usually see--she didn't let hardship make her bitter and angry like it did Nesta and Feyre. I think her book will surprise us and I actually hope she becomes a spy. She has the ability to charm anyone, and that can be very useful in spying. (But I agree on Lucien and Tamlin, I really want part of Lucien's story to be about reconnecting with Tamlin. I still think that's where he belongs, back in the SC. Just not sure where Vassa fits into that just yet bc I do think that's who he'll end up with. Lucien is one of my favorites and I think SJM did him real dirty. I want him to be happy in the end.)
Speaking of Elain and Lucien, I'm curious how the pov's will be. Azriel is getting a bonus chapter at the end of Silver Flames, but he's so secretive I'm not sure SJM would give him a pov through an entire book. It's hard for me to even imagine his pov. I wonder though if the next one will feature Elain, Lucien's, and Azriel's? Personally I'm not a fan of duel pov between two love interests. I find it pretty repetitive because you basically have to go through scenes twice. I wish this next book was only in Nesta's pov.
While I don't agree with you entirely, I can see what you mean and I understand.Tbh, I am also tired of the 'Aelins'. Not all badass female characters have to have the same attitude and annoying behavior, which is why I think Elain could possibly have some potential at being a strong female character in her own way. But I was always curious as to why people shipped her with Azriel. I get that they are both quiet and have kinder personalities, but none of the scenes with them felt remotely romantic at all. Friendly yes, but not romantic. And honestly, since neither of them can get over the other person they have an unrequited love for I just would rather them find happiness on their own or with different people?
Ugh sjm did Lucien so very criminally dirty. If Elain and Lucien were never going to get together then why even make them mates? Just to prove the bond could be broken? That's honestly just entirely unnecessary or maybe sjm just wants to make Lucien suffer because it sure seems like it!
I also thought it was very oddly interesting that Lucien is shipped with Vassa? I thought Vassa and Jurian would be more logical together because isn't Vassa human? And I thought they would kinda make a good match. Ugh, I just don't want any more heartbreak for Lucien. But I feel like asking for his and Tamlin's happiness is way too much to ask apparently.
For sure, the Aelin's can be taxing. I've had my fill for a while. I could probably write a novel on why I ship Azriel and Elain but nobody has time for that, haha. In short, I just really like their dynamic and the sheer ease in which they seem to click. It feels refreshing from the bickering, hot/cold we see in so many fictional ships, including Feysand and Nessian. But you're right, both of them have people to get over, though I think they're on the right track from what we've seen so far.
Yes, I think SJM wants to write a bond that is rejected. But I don't see it as heartbreak for Lucien, bc I don't really think he truly is interested in Elain. In figuring out the bond, yes. But not Elain the person. I think they'll BOTH reject it, not just Elain, because both of them will fall for other people. (And maybe that's how the bond breaks? Or, maybe it's not really a mate bond, but a carranem bond like we saw in Tog?)
For me at least, with Vassa, it was the fact that Lucien just seems genuinely interested in her, like she makes him happy and I want him to be happy. He blushed while talking about her to Feyre, and how her character from what we've seen so far seems to make more sense to me for Lucien. Someone a bit more fiery and strong willed. Plus, I think it's ironic that she's cursed, and Lucien's father is known as a spellbreaker. I think it's indicated Lucien has that ability too, so I wondered if that was a little Easter egg for us to put together, that he'll break Vassa's curse. I think she's human, but maybe something different because of the curse? We'll have to see.
Also, when thinking of ships, I try to think about where the characters will end up. I think Elain will stay in the Night Court because of Nesta and Feyre. I don't see Lucien ending up in the NC given his a) connection with Tamlin b) his connection with Vassa and Jurian and C) his connection to Helion. I lean toward him ending up as High Lord of Day, with Helion dying. (Though personally I'd prefer him in Spring.)
I saw an interesting post on Tumblr that said they predicted (based on Elain seeing Vassa and Koschei) that Elain is going to help Lucien break Vassa's curse, and Azriel is going to help Elain learn more about the shadows, since she might be another shadowsinger. Ugh, I wish their book was next!
Is it bad that I want Elain and Azriel to end up together solely for the purpose of reading cute fluff because I am TIRED of all the weird smut.I mean I would really like a break from Rhysand climaxing to the image of his unborn child and read about Azriel and Elain being soft and cuddly and holding hands.
That's all I want.
WinterRose wrote: "For sure, the Aelin's can be taxing. I've had my fill for a while. I could probably write a novel on why I ship Azriel and Elain but nobody has time for that, haha. In short, I just really like t..."
I just don't see why it had to be Lucien of all people to go through this. Yeah, he and Elain don't have feelings for one another but he is also very hurt by it as well. It hurts him to be rejected, which I think was very cruel of sjm to put this on Lucien rather than a character we aren't inclined to like, like Eris. If Eris and Elain were mates then I think it would be actually interesting to see that break. With Lucien, it feels like she is constantly punishing him and it hurts my heart as well.
But if you're right about Vassa then I think your theory is very interesting. I didn't even remember the part of his father being a spellbreaker. I think I just want Lucien and Tam to be happy, that's all lol. But like I said that is probably too much to ask. And tbh I think it would be interesting if Lucien ends up as High Lord of the Autumn Court--though I doubt that will happen because sjm--even though he isn't Beron's son, a lot of sjm descriptions of him were related to autumn and fire which I thought was interesting for a character who feels like he doesn't belong anywhere. And if he does end up with Vassa I would like to see that relationship play out rather than just be a side note. Maybe I just want a Lucien POV to this story! It just felt weird that a very fascinating character like Vassa with a clear story behind her was introduced at the very end of the book, so hopefully following the rules of 'chekov's gun' she'll have some relevance or a story in a future book.
And that would be so cool if Elain was a shadowsinger or if we literally had any Azriel content at all!
Sarah wrote: "Is it bad that I want Elain and Azriel to end up together solely for the purpose of reading cute fluff because I am TIRED of all the weird smut.I mean I would really like a break from Rhysand cli..."
Well, I'm pretty sure you would get some fluff but don't hold out on not reading weird smut when it comes to Azriel. SJM in her own words said Az was a freak in bed, so that being said, if there are ever sex scenes with Az involved there will be some sort of weird smut, I can guarantee it.
Sarah wrote: "Is it bad that I want Elain and Azriel to end up together solely for the purpose of reading cute fluff because I am TIRED of all the weird smut.I mean I would really like a break from Rhysand cli..."
Lol I can feel that. SJM made some comment about bodily fluids regarding Silver Flames and I just...no thank you. I imagine SJM can't write a book without weird smut unfortunately.
@ Julianna. Yeah, I definitely think Eris would have made a more interesting "surprise mate" story. At this point my guess is Elain is going to play a big role in helping Lucien save Vassa--and so is Helion. Helion may die saving Vassa for Lucien, and Lucien will then become High Lord of Day.
Did anyone feel like SJM kinda substituted Cassian for Lucien regarding Feyre? I like Cassian, of course, but Lucien and Feyre had a really strong friendship in book 1. (Like does no one remember him giving her that cloak and what happened in the trial and her giving up her name for him?!) And I feel like that just got brushed aside so Feyre could be with her new friends--and then she develops a closer bond with Cassian. Not that Feyre can't be close to both, of course. It's just Lucien got sidelined and I'm forever angry about it, haha.
Tamlin has to be given some sort of redemption the more I think about it. Because at the end of the day, he's the High Lord of Spring without an heir. The plot needs a High Lord of Spring. I feel like Lucien has to be part of Tamlin's arc--but Lucien is now entangled with Elain, Vassa, Jurian, Azriel, etc. I'm curious how SJM is going to balance that. Maybe Tamlin will play a minor role in Elain/Az/Lucien/Vassa's book, then get his own book after that.
WinterRose wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Is it bad that I want Elain and Azriel to end up together solely for the purpose of reading cute fluff because I am TIRED of all the weird smut.I mean I would really like a break fr..."
Oh wow I didn't even realize that but you are completely correct! All that happened between Feyre and Lucien is like forgotten? To even Feyre herself apparently. Cassian kinda became the night court version of Lucien, there's a lot of similarities between them if you compare the two.
I always thought the inner circle was really cliquey so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Feyre has chosen Cassian over Lucien even though shes been through more with Lucien (no hate to Cassian, he's great this is all really on feyre and sjm)
I still think all of you are being optimistic about Tamlin getting his own book, I doubt sjm will be that kind or care that much. But if you all are right then I will give you my soul and never question you again because Tamlin's own book? It's what he deserves! But if sjm listens to her fans a lot and most of the fans hate Tam and she hates Tam then.....I really don't know what is going to happen. I really have never been so uncertain about an outcome of a book.
@JuliannaWe're not sure if Tamlin is getting his own book but it won't hurt to dream and pray. Personally, I'm manifesting for a book, if not a book at the very LEAST a mention that he's doing fine or a chapter in his POV where he get his side of the story. I don't really mind. I'm just desperate at this point. XD
~ Manifesting Tamlin gets something ~
I will attempt to manifest with you but with sjm I am terrified of getting my hopes up. Theres just so much potential for Tam as a complex character, I really don't want to see him go to waste. I just want to see him become a better person and move on and be happy, that's all I want in my life lol
@JuliannaMe too. Me too. Tam deserves better.
I honestly feel like if SJM gave Lorcan and now Eris (potentially) redemptions of sorts, surely she will do the same with Tamlin--who was never at any point an antagonist. Like I mentioned above, his role is too important to ignore. As High Lord of Spring (with no heir to replace him), and quite literally the court that borders the human lands, his role is a key component to the overall story. And he'll have to function and perform that role, which he can't do as a broken male. (Plus I think the novella was a taste of what was to come, and SJM included two scenes with Tamlin.)Maybe we won't get his book and pov, but he'll play a role in Lucien's book and we'll see his arc through Lucien's pov, assuming he will get one. I'd personally prefer his own book, and maybe we'll get it once the right female is introduced--whoever his love interest is. Could be someone new, could be Emerie, could be that human (Briar) he helped save at Hybern's camp. I feel like there might be a reason SJM took the time to give her a name.
I REALLY want him and Feyre to truly have closure. He needs to explain his perspective and own up to what he did wrong--and so does she. (And frankly, she needs to help rebuild Spring. Those people were innocent.)
I agree. Feyre needs to help the people of Spring because that was so very selfish of her to bring down the entire place just to hurt ONE PERSON. And they both need closure. And by closure I mean face to face closure and not sending short AF notes saying 'Hope you find happiness too!!' because most of the time that ain't enough.
Speaking of happiness,
happiness by Taylor Swift from her recent album, evermore, is a Feyre/Tamlin song.
And on that note, exile, too.
We know what happened to Feyre, Under the Mountain... even Rhys & Lucien. What we don't know is that what Tamlin went through. Was that really him beside Amarantha? Did Amarantha harass him as she did with Rhys? Did she use his love for Feyre like a torture device? How many nights did Tamlin spend chronically thinking he would never see Feyre again? Wondering if her death would be his fault? Was it hard for him to watch people being lashed while he sat there(that is if he was indeed present and not held captive), incapable?I'm, in fact, looking forward to his history and potential REDEMPTION ARC in Acosf.
I think it might help, sharing this with you guys... Last year I was sick, like really sick. Medicines, various procedures made me feel even more poorly. My parents were fussing over me and their overprotectiveness didn't help. They would tell me what to do, what to eat, when to sleep. I was trapped inside my mind. I was kept a tight rein on so I couldn't possibly get the illness again. They wanted me alive but what they didn't know was that I wasn't living, I was just surviving. My bedroom walls felt like they would close around me, suffocating and drowning me in the process. I wondered if I were Feyre, but that meant my family was Tamlin and it made the whole schmear worse. I hated every inch of my existence for thinking like that. My parents loved me and were trying to save me, what was wrong with me then?... Days passed, and I wouldn't say a word, wouldn't smile. Obviously, my family noticed. They would ask me frequently but I would tell no one of my sufferings. There was no Rhysand for me. In that state of self-loathing & feeling confined, Books gave me 'hope' which I was seriously lacking. When I read, I wouldn't be in my room. I would be roaming the streets of London or wandering the countryside of Wales, on a rooftop in Paris or the highest peaks of mountains, in abandoned castles or a dark forest. It was books that made me feel perhaps I was not completely alone.
So... I just got notifs that this post was still active and decided to take a look, the first post on this page got me livid.Eris... Eris is in the new book!!!
So for one, I loved his character from the moment he was introduced. He came across as evil but we know he isn't. Though, that doesn't mean he's super nice and sweet under that mask. And I kinda loved that hint of darkness within him, and I wanted to see more develop with his character.
That being said, I'm feeling so pissed off that we're getting more of him in book 4, a character that was hardly mentioned, essentially a btw character. And yet there no guarantee that we'll even see Tamlin in this new book. ARGHHHHH. I think based on SJMs biasness we will probably get more story out of Eris (maybe even a pov) then we will ever get for Tam.
As much as we'd all like to believe that Tam will get his chunk of the book where a healing arc will take place and all other wonderful things will happen. But, with the way SJM is just constantly brushing over her book 1 characters, it makes me heavily doubt this.
I do believe he will probably get his hea, even Lucien. My belief is hanging on by a thread. Though, it definitely isn't going to be something fleshed out, or romantic or anything worth gushing over. Because only those belonging to the IC can have nice things, nobody else.
That much can already be seen with the pairing of Vassa and Lucien, they're both very interesting characters on their own but because they arent of importance and arent related to the IC, they are glossed over. One can hope for more of their side of the story to be told but I think sjm will favor more scenes with her "important" characters like Elain and Azriel and probably throw in some rather odd Feysand sex scenes before she could spend precious lines on a page dedicated to Lucien.
Talking about sex scenes, I'm rather dreading whats to come in the new book. And that mention of Azriel and kink - oh dont make me vomit now. As much as I love Lucien, I really dont want an Elain book because then I'd have to read about Az.
I really like that theory of Lucien helping Vassa break the spell with the aid of Helion - this actually makes me so excited for these characters. There just so much potential for Lucien's character and story - and they are so much more interesting then some of the mains that sjm has. It just saddens me that he'll probably get a total of a chapter and have his story be over with.
The whole choosing Lucien to be the character that sjm show's how a mating bond is rejected is indeed cruel! She could have easily chosen someone of less significance, someone who we wouldn't have felt so attached to. It really does feel like she's purposely torturing her book one boys.
Also, the whole "Can we be done with the Aelin's of ya"!!! Agree 100% - All of SJMs female leads are so freaking annoying. They start off as these badass, nice girls, where you're almost like I wanna be her. And they ALWAYS take a turn for the worse. And it's usually when the majority of the fandom starts going "YAAAS QUEEEN" that you realize damn, she's such a bitch. It's almost like "Are they reading the same book as me?" or "What are they seeing that I am not?!" Which makes me dread the new book because I'm one of the very few that actually like Nesta and I think SJM is going to turn her into the exact replica of Aelin/Feyre/Bryce. Not looking forward to it, though will read just to see if there's any mention of Tam lol
The modernization of Prythian.... Sigh... I've always said this. Velaris sounds exactly like a city in our current world. Nothing really special, nothing that makes me go oh wow Velaris is amazing. Except for the fact that they have... uhm.. ghosts that shoot across the sky and happens to look just like a meteor shower.... uhm.. yeah not impressive for a fairytale. Once we got to that side of the world I felt like the fairytale kinda ended and we just rescinded back into the normal modern world of ya. From their buildings, to their clothes, to their food, literally everything.
All of it is just so saddening. So much potential in this whole world that SJM has built but she'll never explore it due to her blatantly obvious favoritism.
Do any of you guys know how many more books SJM intends to publish for ACOTAR?
Like just for ACOTAR.ToG and Crescent City don't count
Menahil wrote: "We know what happened to Feyre, Under the Mountain... even Rhys & Lucien. What we don't know is that what Tamlin went through. Was that really him beside Amarantha? Did Amarantha harass him as she ..."And the sad thing is I don't even know if Feyre ever wondered these things. Knowing Tamlin's personality, the worst thing that could happen to him is for him to be helpless in protecting what he loves. Which he obviously went through. But we really have no idea what else happened to him behind closed doors.
@Menahil - I'm glad you were able to find hope in books! Appreciate you sharing your story. <3
@ Ashara - You know, I don't mind Eris being in there so much only because I think it makes sense for him to be in the next book, especially since he was given a scene in ACOFAS. Eris is now roped into the IC because of his bargain of sorts with Rhys about ascending the throne. I don't think he'll play a huge role, but I definitely think we'll get his side of things.
In a way, this could rope Tamlin in as well actually. Eris is the one that suggests to Rhys to visit Tamlin since his court borders the human lands.
Regarding Lucien and the mate bond, I'd honestly be more irritated about the possible rejection if I thought Lucien truly had any genuine feelings for Elain. (Or if I thought there was chemistry there, or there could be chemistry. As it is, they're just so awkward to me and quite literally forced mates. Whereas the other mate pairings had chemistry long before the bond snapped.) I imagine he feels relief in her disinterest. I truly think the rejection will be 100% mutual--but they'll have a really good friendship. Maybe more brother/sister like, or like Cassian and Mor. (I will die on the hill that Cassian and Mor should have just been a couple.)
Ugh, I haven't finished CC because that book is all over the place and Bryce is super annoying. And I haaated Celaena. I think she got a little better as the books went on, but Manon was hands down my favorite. I liked Elide and Lysandra too. (Overall I think TOG had better world building and characters, tbh. And it felt more like fantasy. But for some reason I discuss ACOTAR more. Weird.)
Going back to Lucien and Elain for a second. I do wonder if there's another reason they were chosen. As it is, to me, they don't remotely click. Like I'd never have thought to put them together, whereas I did think Lucien and Nesta would work. So why them?What's interesting is how Elain has seen so much regarding Vassa. She's seen Koschei, the fact that Vassa is a firebird, the girls at the lake, etc. That's a lot of detail for someone who played a small role.
In a way, it's because of Elain that Lucien even met Vassa. So what if Vassa is crucial to defeating Koschei (who becomes the next villain), and Lucien will be the one to break Vassa's curse, and so the cauldron mated Elain and Lucien just so Elain can help lead Lucien to Vassa? And play a role in defeating Koschei, likely with Azriel as well? Or something along those lines?
I thought the Cauldron just mated people because a combination of their genes would make strong babies?
Sarah wrote: "I thought the Cauldron just mated people because a combination of their genes would make strong babies?"I think that's Rhys's guess on how it originally paired mates together. But that seems a bit inconsistent to me if we're basing it on strength and power. My theory is that it's more...fate based. As in, what the universe needs to bring balance by using two people.
Like taking Feyre and Rhys for example. Rhys sensed they were mates when she was a human--not necessarily a weak one, but certainly not say, a badass powerful human that would make you think, yes, these two will produce some tough babies lol. It's only after she dies and is Made that she becomes his equal in terms of powerfulness. But they were mates before that happened, and would have still been mates even if that never happened and she remained human.
Idk if I'm making sense haha. I just find it very ironic that Elain and Lucien are just two very unlikely people to get together, and Elain basically led her own mate to his potential lover.
Well the mating bond is confusing AF. In fact, the entire world building is wonky.
Nicko wrote: "Topic contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!I know I am going to piss off a lot of people with these statements, but it is my firm belief that the reason why Tamlin is such a hated character i..."
My favorite part about all the comments condemning Tamlin is that they don't also condemn Rhys for manipulating Feyre into selling herself to him for X amount of time every month. Upon a second readthrough of ACOTAR, I was actually appalled by Rhys's behavior when Feyre was lying broken and battered, dying in her cell. He refused to help her out of the kindness of his heart. He had to get something he wanted from her first. That rubbed me the wrong way.
In book 1, I really liked Tamlin and Feyre's relationship, and I found Rhys's behavior a turnoff. Now, do I like Rhys's portrayal in the subsequent books? Yeah. Sure I do. But there was an obvious disconnect from Tamlin's and Rhys's character arcs between the first and second books. So I have to agree with you. Call it lazy writing, call it an editorial oversight, but the whole shift felt forced and unnatural to the story at that point in time.
Also another thing, if people try to point out Rhysand's faults, the fans keep bringing up how Tam is an abusive bitch.Nearly every single time. They didn't even MENTION Tam but the fans keep bringing him up. Putting someone down in order to make someone else they like look like a GOD.
Sarah wrote: "Also another thing, if people try to point out Rhysand's faults, the fans keep bringing up how Tam is an abusive bitch.Nearly every single time. They didn't even MENTION Tam but the fans keep bri..."
This seems to be a trend with this fandom. I see it personally a lot with Nesta. If you point out her faults, then you hear "but Feyre!!" Like it IS possible to talk about one characters faults without talking about another lol.
I always feel like I'm in the minority regarding Rhys and Tamlin. I liked Rhys more in ACOTAR and Tamlin more after ACOTAR. I think it's the more morally gray motives and choices that I find interesting? Rhys had to play a very strategic game in ACOTAR in order to free himself and everyone else. Tamlin had to do the same in ACOWAR. This means things will get messy and lines will be crossed. But it's what has to be done for the greater good. I liked that aspect of their characters, even if SJM didn't want me to, haha.
The difference I think in the narrative is Rhys is allowed to explain his motives and actions. Tamlin isn't.
WinterRose wrote: " liked Rhys more in ACOTAR and Tamlin more after ACOTAR."In ACOTAR Rhys is the sort of character you love to hate (a la Cersei Lannister) and he does some truly despicable things in that book that don't even warrant an oversight from the readers.
But unfortunately that doesn't happen, and most of the times, a hot body is enough to make the fanbase forgive the atrocities commited by a character, because WHY should I have a thinking brain when I can be horny instead >.>
Eris is a big part of Mor's past and the trio or triangle with her, Cas and Az needs to be broken up for Nessian to happen, For me it makes sense that he plays a small part. It would be difficult to have a Autumn Court scen without him. Maybe Beron allies with Kochei and The human Queens and Tamlin fights them?
Nicko wrote: "WinterRose wrote: " liked Rhys more in ACOTAR and Tamlin more after ACOTAR."In ACOTAR Rhys is the sort of character you love to hate (a la Cersei Lannister) and he does some truly despicable thin..."
Oh yeah, a character's appearance definitely plays a role in how much they can get away with. Especially in movies/shows where you can really see their attractiveness.
@ Magdalena - Good theory! I too was thinking Beron was going to ally with the human queens. Possibly Koschei, unless Koschei plays a larger role later on, in Elain's book.
I kinda wish Elain's book dealt more with threats outside Prythian and Nesta's dealt more with the internal issues of the Night Court. A more "civil war" so to say, with the Illyrians. Maybe it will. That book is a tome--768 pages!
I think most of the High Fae are traumatized by things that have been done to them or haunted by things they have done themselves. And I don't mean just under Aramantha. It must be awful to live under Beron's thumb or rule for 500 years. I wouldn't call either Tamlin or Rhys totally mental stable. It most be horrible to be reminded of awful things that happened hundred of years ago by even see or talk to the one that did it to you! So yes I can see why some of the things Tamlin did makes sense. Are High Lords just awful as fathers? From what I heard of Rhys and Tamlin's fathers I wouldn't want to meet any of them. Maybe Tamlin and Rhys made each other a favor by the killings of their dads. In a way they were made free to live their own lives and do what they wanted. I know Tamlin didn't want to be High Lord but you can't say no to that kind of job promotion. I would like to know Tamlin's reason for selleing out Rhys mother and sister. There are things behind his motives that we don't know. So his POV please. We just see him from others POV that are biased.
WinterRose wrote: "I kinda wish Elain's book dealt more with threats outside Prythian and Nesta's dealt more with the internal issues of the Night Court. A more "civil war" so to say, with the Illyrians. Maybe it will. That book is a tomb--768 pages!"It's TOME not TOMB, then again considering how many pages you have to dig through to get to most of Maas' actual plot, that description of it genuinely fits XD
At this point in time, until the book is released for read (quick check: wow! It's releasing in less than 2 weeks I'm not back to reading yet!! noooo) we can only ASSUME and hope that what Maas puts into her story will at least tie SOME loose ends left by Feyra's arc OR address the certain situations that some of the characters are in OR go more daring with the premise.
BUT (there's a huge one here) I've already read most of the books Maas has published (sans her most recent series) and I can safely say that I will not be putting my hopes up for A Court of Silver Flames, because if I do then I'll be disappointed. Somehow there have been surprisingly few books that disappointed me despite having low expectations for them, book 6 of TOG comes to mind. I hope this one is not another Tower of Dawn.
^Omg good catch. Editing that now, haha. Yeah I feel like her quality of writing has kinda gone down. (Heir of Fire and ACOMAF are probably my favorite of hers. Haven't read Tower of Dawn.) I still blame Crescent City a bit for the tone shift. Maybe she just couldn't distinguish the two good enough. It's been a hot minute since I read Cassandra Clare, but I do remember a stark difference in her Mortal Instruments and Infernal Devices. Like they definitely felt like different time periods.
Or maybe she just doesn't do first person very well. I think the new book is third person.
I'm trying CC again and it just seems like such a mess to me. Like she just went off the rails and threw everything in there and no one edited it/scaled it back. It feels like a project she did for fun and then said what the hell, lets publish it. lmao
Totally random, but there's an author that's massively underrated you guys might like. Her name is Annette Marie and she has a few series out. All urban fantasy. I'd say they're somewhere between YA and NA. There's no ridiculous sex scenes, and the characters are more mature even if they're technically in the YA age. I think they're 17-23, somewhere in there. I've read her Steel and Stone series, and need to finish her Demonized series. They're just fun books I found pretty entertaining. (And I love her love interests. There IS that too, haha.)
I would like to know Tamlin's reason for selling out Rhys mother and sister.Same. I'm sure there's more to this story than we're led to believe. (It's kinda annoying how Feyre always hears one side of every story and believes it, without even considering there's another side.) I wonder if his mother was threatened. Even though they were mates, his father might have been awful enough to hurt her. Otherwise, you're right--what's the motive? Or maybe he gave that information without realizing what his father was going to do.
Also the entire Tamlin selling out thingy, it might be probable that he was forced to do it instead of willingly. Maybe his dad gave him an ultimatum? But of course we'll never know because apparently Rhysand's word is law and we don't even need to hear Tamlin's side of the story
When Rhys 'sold out' to the bad guys, Amarantha, he was doing it for the people he loved and that was ok.When Tamlin did the same thing for the same reason, he is a traitor and unforgivable?
I will die on my hill that this fandom is made of only double standards.
I feel like Tamlin's entire stance of doing solo espionage on Hybern was very helpful and a smart move for the collective Prythian army if they helped him!! But no, The Night Court saviors have their own plan and everyone is forced to do their idea because they are obviously the best and most intelligent court. Tamlin risked everything doing this little spy act and it is just brushed over as him still being a traitor even though that's not true? Then Rhys forcing his people in Spring Court land is the cherry on top of this rotten cake of favoritism and god-complex Night Court.
Tamlin lost everything and suffers immensely from his past trauma but still fought, still helped Feyre and Rhys, and sjm just gave him absolute shit in return. I'll never forget that line in ACOWAR where Feyre is mentally complaining that everyone only cared about Tamlin's brokenness and not hers when it is the exact opposite. I feel like that is only further proof that Feyre really didn't give af about what happened to Tamlin under the mountain or the PTSD he has been suffering for literal centuries.
I read an interesting theory online that Elain and Tamlin would be a good pairing and now that I think about it, it does make sense? Elain I think would be considered Tamlin's type and the details of her affinity of gardening would match up with the Spring Court and I like the idea of Lucien and Azriel pursuing other people that better suit them. But to be honest, if Tamlin would be given a love interest by some miracle of the gods, I would have wanted it to be someone who challenged him or helped him grow because Tam needs a lot of healing first.
^^^^ Julianna, I agree with every WORD you just said and I LOVE YOU!!!And Feyre saying that people care about Tam's brokenness than hers is an ABSOLUTE LIE.
NOBODY gave a FLYING FUCK about Tamlin at ALL and that includes Feyre herself. Her act of bringing down the entire Spring Court just to hurt ONE PERSON was the most selfish thing I have EVER read in a SJM novel yet people praised and worshipped her when she did it.
That was NOT a 'YAASSSS QUEEEENN!!' moment. It was selfish, stupid and horrible. If she wanted revenge she should have just stabbed or kicked Tam in the balls or JUST ANYTHING that does not involve any other innocent person.
When Rhys 'sold out' to the bad guys, Amarantha, he was doing it for the people he loved and that was ok.When Tamlin did the same thing for the same reason, he is a traitor and unforgivable?
This is the kind of double standard that annoys me. Basically, if a good guy does it, then it's fine. If a "bad guy" does it, it's not fine.
Another annoying that I noticed is every time Tamlin made a legitimate point, SJM throws in a one liner to remind us he's "crazy." Examples:
“Who is to say that Rhysand and his cronies are not agents of Hybern, all of this a ruse to get you to yield without realizing it?”
Nesta murmured, “You can’t be serious.”
- -
“Stories and words,” Tamlin said, lounging in his chair. “Is there any proof?”
“Proof—” Cassian snarled, half rising in his seat, wings starting to flare.
- -
“I bartered access to my lands to get back the woman I love from a sadist who plays with minds as if they are toys. I meant to
fight Hybern—to find a way around the bargain I made with the king once she was back. Only Rhysand and his cabal had turned her into one of them. And she delighted in ripping open my territory for Hybern to invade. All for a petty grudge—either her own or her …master’s.”
“You don’t get to rewrite the narrative,” I breathed. “You don’t get to spin this to your advantage.”
- -
A muscle flickered in Tamlin’s jaw. “I am here to help you fight against Hybern.”
“Bullshit,” Cassian muttered.
- -
“Perhaps you’re working with them, too,” Tamlin said to the Prince of Adriata. “You’re next in line, after all.”
“You’re insane,” I breathed to Tamlin as Varian bared his teeth.
That's disgusting. Not to mention if you made Rhysand say Tamlin's lines, everyone including the fans would praise him and call him a mad genius. The hypocrisy and double standards baffle the shit out of me.
Especially the line:
“I bartered access to my lands to get back the woman I love from a sadist who plays with minds as if they are toys. I meant to
fight Hybern—to find a way around the bargain I made with the king once she was back. Only Rhysand and his cabal had turned her into one of them. And she delighted in ripping open my territory for Hybern to invade. All for a petty grudge—either her own or her …master’s.”
“You don’t get to rewrite the narrative,” I breathed. “You don’t get to spin this to your advantage.”
If Rhysand did THAT^^^ Feyre would forgive him INSTANTLY and say "It was just a ruse, it was for the good of the people" but she was so biased and let her fury cloud her judgement.
"Another annoying that I noticed is every time Tamlin made a legitimate point, SJM throws in a one liner to remind us he's "crazy."
Is it just me or am I the one being crazy because what you said really reminds me of how people tend to gaslight women and accusing of them being crazy. And I HATE it. It's also a way of demonising mental illness which I ALSO hate.
Both Tamlin and Rhys are somewhat grey characters. I think Tamlin was a bit blind about Feyre's needs after under the mountain as training her magic but Rhys forcing her into dangerous situations like the Weaver and Summercourt. None of the guys are a clean hero. I look forward to Eris as Sarah said he dosen't worship thw ground that Feyre abd Rhys walks. I call that refreshing. Maybe Tamlin's mate is coming? Viviane's sister or Cressida?
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Also, that being said, I agree with you guys. Eris will probably get an explanation to his story of the 'oh I'm not actually that terrible of a guy' which is great, it makes him more complex and all. But what irritates me is that in four freaking books, Tamlin gets n o t h i n g. There were many parts in ACOWAR where Tam shows some improvement to going down the right path of redemption in ACOFAS it's like sjm said 'screw him' and just gives us a 'pathetic' Tam where everyone has abandoned him and Rhys shows his real monster side in his chats with him. I really love Tamlin, he has so much potential but I'm going to be the cynicist here and say that I doubt sjm will give him redemption or a happy ending. I bet she'll throw together some half-assed ending for him if anything at all or some unremarkable side note. I think in the first couple pages of this thread someone mentioned that sjm said she hated Tamlin as well? So if the very author hates him then I don't think she will give this character the justice he deserves. Although, I've never wanted to be proved more wrong in my life.
Also what really bothered me in the insta live tonight is how she kinda brushed aside Lucien's possible presence in the book? Maybe I was just reading into her facial expressions too much but I feel like Lucien will probably be just as absent in this next book as he was in ACOWAR and will get a half-assed wrap up as well, which is a real shame since Lucien is the most underrated character of that series!!! And ugh, I feel like she doesn't like him either? The way he's treated by all of the inner circle and how terrible of a 'friend' Feyre is with him, I just-- Lucien deserves soooo much better. He doesn't deserve any of the crap he's gotten and for some reason I feel like she's going to give him something incredibly unremarkable as well.