A Court of Frost and Starlight
discussion
A case against the constant vilifying of Tamlin
To me, making Tamlin a bad, controlling, and abusive character just seem to be a plot device to move pairing from Feyre and Tamlin to Freya and Rhys. It's like author just moved from one character to another...(that's just my personal opinion)...
Nicko wrote: "Topic contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!I know I am going to piss off a lot of people with these statements, but it is my firm belief that the reason why Tamlin is such a hated character i..."
I agree with this so much!
Abcd wrote: "It's like author just moved from one character to another...(that's just my personal opinion)...."I would argue that THAT is not a personal opinion or observation even. I think that is exactly what happened with full authorial intent behind it. That said, the transition from one relationship to another would have been handled better if it was more organic than instant U turn :/
Ooh, this thread isn't entirely dead! Let me just say I'm really glad I found it.A lot of what I feel in regards to this story is from hindsight after the fact but even when I was reading it, I never hated Tamlin. Not once.
People talk about there being red flags in the first book. I never saw them. When things started deteriorating, I mostly felt resigned because I saw it coming. It's known as the Second Act Breakup on TVTropes because it happens often. And when he trapped Feyre, all I really felt was sadness because I knew then that he'd fucked up.
But none of this villifying constant anger towards him. Even if it was blatant that Sarah was trying to shove readers towards Rhys. Rhys who was manipulative and kind of a son of a bitch when we met him.
There's more I can probably add but I'm gonna read this whole thing from start to finish and then come back.
Dinique wrote: "Ooh, this thread isn't entirely dead! Let me just say I'm really glad I found it.A lot of what I feel in regards to this story is from hindsight after the fact but even when I was reading it, I n..."
I think the "flags" were somewhat there but completely warped at the same time. For example, Tamlin snaps at Lucien in ACOTAR and Lucien snaps back. Then in ACOMAF, when Tamlin snaps at Lucien, it's presented as Lucien almost being afraid.
When Tamlin showed his claws and roared in ACOTAR, it was fine. It was fine with Rhys roared and raged at Cassian in ACOMAF. It's fine when Rowan does these things. But suddenly after ACOTAR, when Tamlin does these things, it's now problematic.
In ACOTAR, Rhys mocks Tamlin for letting Lucien "speak to him like that" and Tamlin says he doesn't enforce rank, to which Rhys says "Still?" As in, Tamlin has never enforced rank. And yet in ACOWAR, Feyre tells Lucien "we don't enforce rank HERE." As though the spring court did.
It's just stuff like this. This constant manipulation of actual events to paint Tamlin in a worse light.
And it's just...unnecessary. We could have gotten to the same end (Rhys and Feyre) quite easily without doing a 180 on Tamlin. It's not even just the 180, it's Feyre's dumbassery. (Seriously, how could Feyre truly think Tamlin was siding with Hybern?) Which again, is just SJM projecting what she wants the reader to think.
Another example of that is the high lord meeting. Tamlin brings up some very good points about not trusting Rhys. Given Rhys's track record and the reputation he himself created (WE know why, but literally no one else does), why shouldn't Tamlin and everyone else be suspicious of him? Yet when he brings this up, we get Nesta and the others saying things like "You can't be serious." As if he's crazy to think so.
And he's really...not? You know?
People so openly accept Nesta being a total bitch for no good reason (she is not the strong independent queen that SJM wants us to think she is, rather she is so abusive to everyone around her, and its just totally wrong) but Tamlin gets so much hate. Yeah, he has done quite a lot of bad stuff, but in the end, its just for Feyre, the woman that he loves more than anyone and anything. So yeah I dont hate Tamlin, but rather I feel bad for him. Sm.
Samiksha wrote: "People so openly accept Nesta being a total bitch for no good reason (she is not the strong independent queen that SJM wants us to think she is, rather she is so abusive to everyone around her, and..."I don't think that Nesta is being a total bitch for no reason. I see it more as this quiet, neglected girl ( yes she was neglected as their mother never cared for her daughters and her father couldn't have been bothered to do anything for them) who was now expected to raise/ cared for/ provide for her two younger sisters when he was a CHILD, who probably didn't know what to do and how todo about it. She was moody and angry, angry at all this responsibility suddenly be upon her without any help with her father. So when Feyre decided to take it upon herself to go hunt, what was Nesta to do?? I find that Tamlin and Nesta are mirrors of each other, both of which has had their share of experiences and both need a lot of help.
I totally agree with everything. Some fans hates Tamlin due Rhys and Feyre's biased point of view. I hope we'll get a Tamlin book.
Nadia wrote: "Samiksha wrote: "People so openly accept Nesta being a total bitch for no good reason (she is not the strong independent queen that SJM wants us to think she is, rather she is so abusive to everyon..."The thing is though, Feyre--being three years younger than Nesta--was also neglected, and also would have no idea how to take care of her family, and yet she did it because no one else did. Her father tried--not hard enough obviously, but he did more than Nesta (or Elain) did.
Nesta and Feyre are nearly the same age difference as Katniss and Prim. (Katniss was 16 and Prim was 12.) Imagine if Katniss would have rather her family starve and sat on her ass while Prim went out and hunted for them.
I'd have more sympathy if Nesta and Feyre were dealt different hands. But they were dealt the same hand, and Feyre was worse off because she was younger. We don't know their ages, but if Feyre was still old enough to promise her mother she'd take care of their family, she couldn't have been THAT young. I think she goes to the woods for the first time at 13? Which makes Nesta 16. Definitely old enough to do something to help. Help Feyre hunt, maybe offer to clean the meat, find a job, etc.
My guess is SJM will spin it so that Nesta got the worse treatment from their mother, and maybe the mother babied Feyre the most (being the literal baby) so that's why Nesta resents Feyre.
For me, I just can't excuse it. I can't imagine being the oldest of three and not only doing nothing to help your family survive, but mock and bully your baby sister who is trying--while also knocking your disabled father's cane away from him so he struggles to walk. She's just a very mean girl.
Dinique wrote: "Ooh, this thread isn't entirely dead! "Nah, it's not dead. If anything I come back to it to check how many views it still has and reply to new comments that get sent in. So it will LIVE ETERNALLY!
It's really nice to see that people are still invested in this subject I thought that this discussion would have died down after a while, but no it just keeps going. Sure, there is nothing new added to the discussion but just being able to throw shade at Rhys and Feyra is enough for me and I'm guessing for a whole lot of people.
WinterRose wrote: "I can't imagine being the oldest of three and not only doing nothing to help your family survive, but mock and bully your baby sister who is trying--while also knocking your disabled father's cane away from him so he struggles to walk. She's just a very mean girl."WinterRose, I am honestly glad you are keeping the discussion alive and insightful. Imma give you a hug through the internet. *uploading hug*
That said, your point on the idea of Nesta being a nasty piece of work is valid. But let's take into account this idea. Maas has always been terrible at highlighting a character through their own traits and has always relied on putting other surrounding characters in a bad light so that thee characters she wants to highlight look good. She's done that with Chaol and Lysandra contrasting Aelin in TOG series, with Tamlin and Nesta contrasting Feyra and Rhys in ACOTAR series. I'm not surprised by this direction, because Feyra in an of herself is a pretty bland character even at the beginning of the novel. Yes she's pragmatic and cares about her family and loves painting, but that's really just about all the the information that we get about her.
Feyra is genuinely a character that is really uninteresting to read, as she has ... no real character goals or desires and simply is molded by the general direction of the story.
Of course I take every opportunity to come along and bash Feyra, but here I think it's justified because she is not an interesting character to follow, despite seeing the entire story from her perspective. She is a character that is only made to "look" good, just because her actions are contrasted with actions of other characters. We are give time and time again evidence that she is not a character worth following (boring narrations, obsessive descriptions, sociopathic tendencies abound) and yet we are still in her head.
Maybe if Maas had made ACOTAR third person limited and instead let the reader decide what they should think about a character and not have a certain mindset being SHOVED at them, maybe we would have gotten a much more compelling story with consistent characterization, devoid of bias and dumbassery like that.
Nicko wrote: "WinterRose wrote: "I can't imagine being the oldest of three and not only doing nothing to help your family survive, but mock and bully your baby sister who is trying--while also knocking your disa..."We need more hugs in the world! *returns your hug*
SJM does have a horrible habit of shoving her pov onto the reader. And it does seem worse in first person, though I did notice it in TOG too. She doesn't tell things very..unbiasedly. Is that a word? lol
In hindsight, and I think if she had originally planned it to be say a 6 book series, third person multi pov would have been a good idea. I tend to prefer single pov's unless the multiple doesn't include say, a relationship pair. I get annoyed when I know both sides of a romantic pairing's thoughts. I like the mystery of not knowing the other ones thoughts.
How did you like Aelin? I actually found her more tolerable at times than Feyre, and less tolerable at others. It was once again SJM's bias of Aelin (Aelin of the wild fire, the wonderful, the best thing ever, the greatest assassin of all time, blah blah blah) that turned me off her most. Every character licked her ass every second they could and I haaaated it lmao.
When SJM likes a character, she makes sure you know it. She'll remind you every other page.
WinterRose wrote: "How did you like Aelin? "Ugh... I hated her the moment she hit the page back in book 4. Omg, Maas could not shut up about her and how special and wonderful her previously non-existent romantic relationship with Rowan is.
I have reviews going in depth about it if you're interested. I know it's a cheap shot but I've ranted so many times about Aelin while reading ToG that I'm tired of it and just refer people to what I wrote in the past (because it's still relevant to this day). Sorry for being utterly lazy on this regard, but I'm just so tired of talking about her.
Here are the links to them separately, you can also find these links at the end of each review:
Throne of Glass
Crown of Midnight
Heir of Fire
Assassin's Blade
Queen of Shadows
Empire of Storms
Tower of Dawn
Kingdom of Ash
I am so happy to have found this thread. I devoured all four books in two days and it left me yearning to read more. Not because it filled me with joy for reading, but because the utter character assassination of Tamlin destroyed me. I was so surprised when I found the fan reactions to a lot of it, and saw that Tamlin was being completely vilified. Like, was I the one going crazy? He seemed justified in a lot of what he did??For one thing, as a lot of people here previously mentioned, we don't know his side of Under the Mountain. He is shown in the first half of ACOTAR to be emotional, yet kind. He grieves Andras's death, he tries to save that lesser faerie, he buries the faerie himself when he fails, he sends Feyre away though he knows it will damn him and his Court. The only time he is silent and withdrawn is when he has to kill the beasts in his territory. He and Lucien seem to hold each on equal footing and is implied to have never enforced rank in his Court. So throughout Under the Mountain, I was genuinely concerned with what Amarantha was doing that had him silent again. He couldn't have protected Feyre, he was under too much scrutiny. He knew he couldn't beat Amarantha, not with how weak his magic was. He is awkward, for lack of a better word, because he never learned how to be High Lord. He was raised to be a warrior, that was what he knew. And in a world that toxic, in a war camp, his anger was probably encouraged as power.
He watches Feyre die, her neck snaps. So of course he is terrified even after it ends, terrified for Feyre's safety- both from Amarantha's lackeys who may want revenge and the possibility that literally every other High Lord will want to kill her if it comes she has their powers. He most definitely becomes abusive in his control and tries to shut out whatever pain or nightmares he endured that clearly still disturbed him rather than talk about it, but he's a guy in basically a medieval settings, who was apparently disliked by his own family, save his mother. When would he have ever learned to discuss what was clearly PTSD, both as he suffered it and as Feyre did? Emotions like that in general?
In ACOTAR, Lucien and Feyre both show they're unafraid to argue with Tamlin. But now, all of the sudden, they won't speak up to him? Really? Even Lucien? Lucien's characterization faulted, but not nearly as bad as Tamlin's. Tamlin is said several times to have never wanted to be High Lord and never learned, all he knew was tradition, and probably thought a return to an old normal would help them all, with her being his wife, but not Spring's Lady, with the Tithe. And then when Rhys comes to make good on his bargain? This High Lord that has the power to control minds and then break them? This High Lord who has ruled for who knows how long, and has always put on the show of being a heartless psychopath for the entirety of his rule? Feyre only once tries to let Tamlin know she is choosing this - and does so via a letter, even though when last they spoke, she barely could read or write?? A letter, from someone barely literate, in the home of someone who can literally control her mind? 10/10 idea, Feyre, you idiot. There had to be a better way to handle that. So Tamlin, still afraid Feyre is being controlled, makes a deal with the devil to try to save her? And from what I understand, it was Ianthe who sold out her sisters, not Tamlin.
Then gets to the third book where Feyre has apparently learned the intricacies of High Fae Court well enough to completely destroy it? And she really, never once, considers that Tamlin is acting as a double agent? Never? She died for him and really believed he would throw his lot behind Hybern's cruelty? It is her fault that there was no resistance in Spring when Hybern's armies went for the Wall, yet that fact is just breezed by? She played her role so well, Tamlin genuinely never considered she didn't love him until it was too late.
It's said he gives her space when she is 'saved' from the Night Court in ACOWAR, this is not something a villain would do, he wouldn't care. He has realized his mistake in trapping her, too little too late, but does try to let her in more. And she eviscerates his life.
I really believe he was too blind, too emotionally undeveloped, to realize Feyre had stopped loving him, until he realized just how darkly she had painted him in the eyes of his people. And then when they meet to discuss Hybern and he's verbally abusive to her - I'm torn on this. Part of me feels like it was a way to make his position with Hybern even more believable, and also just a reflection of how hurt he was. He saves her in Hybern's camp and I was genuinely worried he was going to die there. And I would have 100% stopped reading the books then and there if he died. Had he really been the villain so many people wanted to paint him as, all he had to do was let Rhys die. But he doesn't - this simply isn't the action of a villain. Feyre was begging him, offering anything for Tamlin to save Rhys. Again, had Tamlin been a villain, he could have demanded anything. But he does it with no strings attached, only asking her to be happy.
Tamlin was hella getting into abusive territory and deserved getting called on his shit. In ACOTAR, Lucien and Feyre would've called him on it, much more firmly, and Lucien would not have backed down, because *Tamlin never enforced rank.* But SJM apparently made them both spineless.
I really don't care about the fate of any of the other characters other than Lucien and Tamlin, and I hate the rage Feyre seemed to have in ACOWAR, it was just kind of...out of character?
TL;DR: Feyre died, Feyre was in the hands of literal mind control, her power made life even more dangerous for her, and never really let him know she was safe in an effective manner. Tamlin is emotionally stunted and didn't realize he'd lost her already.
Aly wrote: "A letter, from someone barely literate, in the home of someone who can literally control her mind? 10/10 idea, Feyre, you idiot. "Yup, that's Feyra. She has a habit of seeing things only from her perspective and not considering why other people do what they do. This demonstrates a genuine lack of empathy. In my analysis review of my second reading of ACOMAF I've came to the conclusion that Feyra, for all the good things SJM says about her, is a sociopath. As I stated in my analysis review, Feyra displays many characteristics of sociopaths a la Cersei Lannister: ruthlessness, lack of empathy, lack of morality, intense hatred, inability to see things from other people's perspective, a disproportionate amount of self-importance etc. etc. And despite all this Maas still frames her as the protagonist of the series because... 1st person perspective limitations.
I've said this numerous times, this series should have not been written in 1st person because it gives the reader no chance to see other character's point of view and what they think.
Aly wrote: "And she eviscerates his life."
Ouch that is a painfully accurate way to put it. Well done.
Oh, no need for a TL;DR I read through the whole thing. You're right, Tamlin and other characters have been treated poorly by the author. I mean yea, an author can have favorites, but when you write characters in such a way that your readers turn on your character, because of a negative bias your main character has against them, that is overkill. Feyra does not even doubt her own feelings of resentment for Tamlin, like a properly depressed person should (depressed people doubt everything around them and give more importance to other people's lives instead of their own, that's generally what happens). She is so adamant in her view that Tamlin is the reason why she is unhappy that she does not even think of what her escape to the Night Court would result in.
And here's another thing, Feyra does not think about consequences! She does things out of impulse and spite. And when she is confronted with the results of those impulses she is clearly unfazed because "well at least I got to destroy Tamlin". Fack off, Feyra...
Aly wrote: "I am so happy to have found this thread. I devoured all four books in two days and it left me yearning to read more. Not because it filled me with joy for reading, but because the utter character a..."I totally agree on Lucien--it's frustrating that his character had to do a 180 JUST to villify Tamlin further. ACOTAR showed Lucien and Tamlin as a team, and Lucien never backed down of saying what was on his mind.
Tbh I think the biggest issue is SJM wanted Feyre with the Night Court so fast that she rushed the "downfall" of Feyre/Tamlin. I actually think this would have benefited from just having ACOTAR longer, adding a bit more post-Amarantha. That way Feyre can still get to the NC in ACOMAF when she does, but there would have been a better transition. (One that doesn't include doing a 180 on Tamlin and Lucien both.)
So what do you guys think about A Court of Sliver Flames? As I told my best friend , SJM better not come with the foolishness that she had Cassian say in ACOFAS. I am worried about Nesta, especially how people have taken to her during Feyre's POV. I have no idea how SJM is going to spin Nesta out from being a mean girl to a likeable character. Also I hope that Nesta actually develops some healthy coping habits instead of her just being beaten and killing her way through these Illyrian camps.
Nadia wrote: "So what do you guys think about A Court of Sliver Flames? As I told my best friend , SJM better not come with the foolishness that she had Cassian say in ACOFAS. I am worried about Nesta, especiall..."Eh, since I'm not a fan of Nesta, I'm not too excited about it. I feel like it's just going to be SJM fanning over her own character the entire time and I just have no desire to read about how "awesome, powerful, and strong" Nesta is. I would be more interested if it turned out she was setting Nesta up as a villain. To me that actually makes more sense.
Nadia wrote: "So what do you guys think about A Court of Sliver Flames?" What the hell even is that? I've never heard of it.
*Does a quick check.* Oh... OH. Maas finally gave a name to her new ACOTAR novel. Well it was about fucking time.
In my opinion the only way to do right by Nesta and also by Tamlin and Lucian is to see all three of their situations from their own points of view, preferably in third person limited, as 1st person is a plague that limits world building potential if your characters are sociopathic morons.
They are all suffering through hardships, Nesta - depression, Tamlin - depression, Lucian - homelessness. What I would really like is for Maas to have Lucian insist on helping Tamlin, even though Tamlin does not want his help. It would consolidate their bond as friends and give us more insight into them as characters.
But that's wishful thinking. I'm around 90% convinced that that is NOT going to happen, because ooooh Romance. Why have meaningful character development and character studies when we can have boring ass romantic relationships and dramas.
WinterRose wrote: "I would be more interested if it turned out she was setting Nesta up as a villain. To me that actually makes more sense.."To tell the truth I would have much preferred Feyra to be the one who turned into a villain given her sociopathic tendencies, but we can't all get what we want.
Though a villain CREATED by Feyra and the Night Court's actions. OHHH YES. That would be SPECTACULAR! And it would also make Feyra think twice before rubbing everyone else' misery in their face by indifferently showing off just how good life has turned out for her.
Why can't you be more like me, Nesta? Look I gave two shits about my family, dumped my boyfriend for another man who is perfect for me, got my revenge, destabilized a court and probably led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people, but I'm better off for it. Why oh why can't you be more like me, Nesta?!
Well, tbh no one really has to turn Nesta into a villain--she's been a horrible person from the start lol. It doesn't seem much a stretch to me for her to fall that direction. For me, Feyre and Tamlin are very flawed, but their intentions are more or less good. Many of Nesta's intentions are to hurt and cause pain. If Tamlin loved Feyre too much, Nesta did not love her enough, if at all.
My personal feelings for Feyre aside, and you know she's certainly not my favorite, what Nesta did to her for years and years was shitty. That's my biggest thing with her. Her turning into a Fae didn't cause this--she's been this way from the start and hasn't really shown any regret or remorse. (Elain has, which is good for her character growth. But I'm still waiting to see this with Nesta.)
I do think her POV will help, but I want to see her put on her big girl pants and own up to her shitty past. It's really the only way she can move forward and grow. Otherwise, she'll remain a stagnant character, too stubborn to actually grow.
(And Feyre needs to own up to things with Tamlin. That bugs me too, the fact that she doesn't seem to see the issue with destroying his court. She sees it, but doesn't want to acknowledge it. This seems to be a thing with SJM. She doesn't always let her characters, especially her favs, own up to their shit.)
I also hope Lucien will help Tamlin. Tbh it seemed OOC for him to run away with Feyre to begin with. I can't for the life of me see Lucien being part of the inner circle. I see him back in Spring, back to how he and Tamlin were in ACOTAR. (Ugh, SJM really murdered both of them, didn't she?)
So I am going to die on my hill when it comes to defending Nesta, huh. That's okay. This is me generalizing but I think people fail to realize that Nesta is a horrible person, she is a deeply flawed person who has done horrible things. Yesshe abused and neglected Feyra, but so did Elain ( not abusing but neglecting her all the same). She has grown from that. By the time we see in ACOWAR, she is holding her tongue back from Mor, who by the way was completely out of line as well. We see her stepping up and helping soldiers. We literally saw give herself as bait for the King of Hybern. And that is the ones that just comes to my head. You can take whatever you want from Nesta in ACOTAR but you also have to take into consideration the person she became in ACOWAR and ACOFAS. Honestly Nesta just needs a friend. Not Cassian or anyone in the Inner Circle, but an outsider. She needs a honest to god, will always be there for you, lets you cry and eat a gallon of ice cream for two days then makes you take a shower, best friend. She also needs a hobby, Feyre has painting, Elain has gardening, but Nesta?? I am thinking event coordinator or etiquette teacher.
WinterRose wrote: For me, Feyre and Tamlin are very flawed, but their intentions are more or less good. Many of Nesta's intentions are to hurt and cause pain. If Tamlin loved Feyre too much, Nesta did not love her enough, if at all."Damn, So I don't care about the books like that, but honestly, did we read the same book?? Am 100% NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE OR MEAN but am truly puzzled about how you got there.
Nadia wrote: "So I am going to die on my hill when it comes to defending Nesta, huh. That's okay. This is me generalizing but I think people fail to realize that Nesta is a horrible person, she is a deeply flawe..."Lol I will say this, I do think she has her moments. I don't really give her credit for doing something any halfway decent person would do, BUT I give her credit for standing up for humans at the high lord meeting, which took some guts, and for her role in the war. 100% in agreement there. For me, her flaws outweigh her moments--for now. I imagine this will change once she gets her arc/journey.
Where I struggle with her is her attitude, sense of entitlement, and overall rudeness. I struggle with the fact that she still can't seem to own up to what she did to Feyre. Where Elain differs here (for me) is she owns up to that neglect:
"And as for Feyre’s hunting during those years, it was not Nesta’s neglect alone that is to blame. We were scared, and had received no training, and everything had been taken, and we failed her. Both of us.” - Elain in ACOMAF
This shows me that Elain acknowledges her wrongdoing. She gives Nesta an opening here where Nesta could have at the very least, nodded in agreement, thus showing us she too sees the wrongness, but Nesta either a) is too proud or b) really doesn't see what she did was wrong. Because she just stiffens her spine and says nothing.
This is where I'm hoping to see growth. I think we haven't seen much social/relationship growth from her yet. And I don't think she can move forward and grow in this regard until the past is reconciled, if that makes sense? (Random, but what I've never understood and I know there's more to it, but why she blatantly favors Elain over Feyre. Not just favors, but coddles, and abuses Feyre.)
Tbh I think Nesta would be a very hard person to be friends with. She's mean to most people, even ones who don't deserve it. She very proud, doesn't seem to ever think she's wrong, and is ungrateful. She doesn't want to hang out or visit, but demands things like rent money and can't even say thank you. I think she has to learn how to BE a friend before she could ever have a true friendship. (This might sound unhealthy, but I kind of think she'd do best with someone who didn't take her shit and threw it right back. I think Nesta is super guarded, and will only lower her shields to someone who earns her respect.)
I do think she needs a hobby though, for sure, and a purpose. But...she shows no interest in these things, which makes it difficult again for her to grow. She seemed at her most involved with whatever she was doing with Amren and the book, which makes me think puzzles might be good for her. This might sound odd, but I can see her having a good mental game for war strategy.
Nadia wrote: "WinterRose wrote: For me, Feyre and Tamlin are very flawed, but their intentions are more or less good. Many of Nesta's intentions are to hurt and cause pain. If Tamlin loved Feyre too much, Nesta ..."Lol no worries! I'll explain what I mean, but let me ask this first. What would you consider both Tamlin and Nesta's worst things they did to Feyre? If you had to name a few, what would you consider?
WinterRose wrote: "Nadia wrote: "WinterRose wrote: For me, Feyre and Tamlin are very flawed, but their intentions are more or less good. Many of Nesta's intentions are to hurt and cause pain. If Tamlin loved Feyre to..."Genuinely terrible things?
At this point I really don't care enough about Feyra, but for the sake of argument let's say... Tamlin thrashing his study in a fit of rage (yes, even worse than him locking her up and "siding with Hybern" - both if these were justified because 1. he was justifiably trying to keep Feyra from putting her life recklessly in danger because she stopped listening to reason and 2. that was a ploy to get close to Hybern and yet Feyra didn't see it like that).
That's the most out of control and hurtful he gets but keep in mind that she basically told him that her life in the Spring Court was torturous aliking him to Amarantha.
Nesta is less excusable. Not speaking up to her father and actively helping her younger sister in her activities. I know she was a child but siblings who truly care about each other's well-being do lend a helping hand, they do not act like Cinderella's stepsisters, claiming the rewards for all the hard work they do.
@ Nicko - Yes, I agree the bout with Hybern doesn't really count for me either when he was clearly a double agent. Feyre is a moron for not suspecting that. Really, Rhys is too, and I think this is SJM's own bias because Rhys isn't a moron. He literally did the same thing to a degree, playing the bad guy, so if anyone should suspect this, it's him.I agree with you, for me Nesta is not excusable. At the end of the day, Tamlin's intent was to protect Feyre and he didn't know how to handle his crippling fear of losing her. Nesta's intent was to hurt and cause pain by years of bullying, gaslighting, and abusing Feyre. (We also see Tamlin shows remorse and regret; Nesta does not.) For me that's the difference.
I kind of wish SJM would go a surprise route and have Nesta become a villain by joining the Illyrians as they uprise against the night court. A civil war, so to say. IMO Nesta actually has a good basis for telling a villain's decent. She COULD be a very good villain, better than any of SJM's other villains because she's got more layers. But I doubt SJM has the guts to do that, and Nesta has a long way to go even for that. Good villains have agendas and plans. They don't sit on their ass.
(Kind of off topic but kind of not bc it concerns Tamlin, but omg I was re-reading ACOMAF and when Feyre says "There was a part of Tamlin that was good..." Like this is a surprise. Really? Ya think so? Her way of thinking truly astounds me.)
HI again, okay. So we all agree that Feyre's is a unreliable, extremely bias narrator, and since we see things from only her POV, I think (and its so stupid and irresponsible and could be frankly insulting ) but I think that just like Tamlin, we could be missing something when it comes to Nesta. Again, I am really trying not to die on this hill but I somehow I just can't comprehend how someone would just do that. Maybe its my 21 year old brain.
WinterRose wrote: This shows me that Elain acknowledges her wrongdoing. She gives Nesta an opening here where Nesta could have at the very least, nodded in agreement, thus showing us she too sees the wrongness, but Nesta either a) is too proud or b) really doesn't see what she did was wrong. Because she just stiffens her spine and says nothing.I will push back on this, only slightly. Nesta doesn't know these people. Cassian, Rhys, and Azriel shows up to her house, judging her and her past actions, although wrong, as if they know her. They only know Feyre's side of the story Unlike Elain, she is clearly not comfortable with these people, who can hurt her. I wouldn't just declare all my wrongs to people who again, She doesn't know, but just has to help.
@ Nadia - Of course I am not expecting a heart to heart where Nesta apologizes for the years of bullying and abuse in front of mere strangers. But...a nod. Literally she could have nodded. She could have looked guilty, or in agreement. She could have given some teeny, tiny indication that she takes responsibility and acknowledges it was wrong.She also could have owned up to these things during the entire 3 book trilogy, privately with Feyre, and she never did. I just pointed that scene out because there was a blatant opening handed to her on a silver platter that didn't even require her to first bridge that gap.
While I do agree Feyre is very biased, if we take away Feyre's opinion on Nesta and her pov and just look at Nesta's actions (how she treats and talks to Feyre, and other people in general) they speak for themselves. There's really no "other pov" for telling someone (your younger sister, who is taking care of you, mind you) things like this and never seeming sorry for it:
“You’re just a half-wild beast with the nerve to bark orders at all hours of the day and night. Keep it up, and someday—someday, Feyre, you’ll have no one left to remember you, or to care that you ever existed.”
I'm sure SJM will try to justify why Nesta treated Feyre like garbage for years, but I'd honestly rather Nesta just say "I was selfish, I was shitty, I'm sorry." And then we can move on lol. Like that's it. No excusing, just owning up, apologizing, and we move on.
WinterRose wrote: "I'm sure SJM will try to justify why Nesta treated Feyre like garbage for years, but I'd honestly rather Nesta just say "I was selfish, I was shitty, I'm sorry." And then we can move on lol. Like that's it. No excusing, just owning up, apologizing, and we move on."Same. Honestly, I am just thankful that we are able to have this discussion, even though this started with Tamlin. I hope that SJM, if she wants to to go down this path of justification, that she doesn't take away this gray moral that Nesta has.
I also want Tamlin and Lucien to get better characterization as well.
Me too! I've talked to some hardcore Nesta stans, and some anti-Tamlin and they're all just nuts lol. Like you can't even discuss anything because they hate Feyre/the IC so much, or hate Tamlin so much.I read the synopsis of A Court of Silver Flames and it honestly bummed me out. It reads very romancy to me, more so than any other SJM book, so I'm hoping it's not just tons of smut. I love romance, but the plot is the driver for me. I still can't get through Crescent City and I was SO excited for it. But that book is just all over the place for me.
My hunch is book 2 will be Elain/Azriel/Lucien/Vassa centered. Then the third will be Tamlin's. I wonder if his love interest will be Emerie (that Illyrian female Cassian meets in ACOFAS) or that human Briar, that Tamlin, Jurian, Az and Feyre helped rescue from Hybern's camp.
Emerie would be super interesting considering Tamlin's hate toward Illyrians and the NC in general.
Am I the only one who doesn't want Elain and Azriel together??
Lol I actually quite like them together. They're so SOFT and pure. This may sound crazy, but they're almost more "mate" like to me than even Feyre/Rhys. The way they just seem to see and get each other in this quiet, unspoken way. This scene in particular I thought was a good example of their mutual comfort:Elain sat silently at one of the wrought-iron tables, a cup of tea before her.
Azriel was sprawled on the chaise lounge across the gray stones, sunning his wings and reading what looked to be a stack of reports—likely information on the Autumn Court that he planned to present to Rhys once he’d sorted through it all. Already dressed for the Hewn City—the brutal, beautiful armor so at odds with the lovely garden. And my sister sitting within it.
And of course, the "You came for me" and "I'm getting her back" and giving her truth teller and how she caught on to his headaches and I could just keep going on, lol. I think they could end up being my favorite.
Whereas Lucien and Elain...I got nothing genuine. Four books into the series, and they don't really have anything significant beyond a mating bond neither want. Like no actual development in comparison to Az/Elain. And I LOVE Lucien, but he and Elain feel like two pieces of a puzzle that don't fit. I always imagined Lucien with someone more fiery--so when Vassa was introduced, I thought she made more sense. I wasn't surprised he showed interest in her.
I could be wrong, but the way SJM hammered in how some mates are wrong for each other and a bond can be rejected, I can't help but think it's bc that's what will happen. That BOTH Elain and Lucien will reject the bond and maybe when both do, it breaks? Or lessens somehow? Becomes more family-like? It'd be interested to see how that would play out.
I read this whole thread after finishing ACOMAF. I plan to read ACOWAR and ACOFAS sometime this month and I'm so worried. My biggest pet peeve is when the author doesn't realize that their protagonist is an abusive sociopath. Compared to the protagonist from Throne of Glass, I enjoyed Feyre a lot in ACOTAR, not so much in ACOMAF. Hearing that she spends so much time burying Tamlin and destroying him when she is supposedly so happy with the Night Court and Rhysand just doesn't sit well with me. I know this isn't supposed to be some frilly happily ever after fantasy but with these books being so long and told from Feyre perspective, it's a bit much seeing her pretty much behave like a villain with no regard for the people around her. I was also interested in Cassian/Nesta and Azriel/Elain but now I just think it's kinda gross that SJM is trying to force all of the Illyrians to be with an Acheron sister. It feels almost like SJM wants to bang all of them and created the Acherons specifically to pair them off to fulfill some sort of fantasy. I think I wouldn't mind Tamlin's character arc so much if the author recognized that Feyre and Rhys are horrible people. A lot of what I'm reading about what happens to Tamlin doesn't feel deserved, especially when Rhys only wears the face of a ruthless and untrustworthy High Lord. Tamlin participated in High Fae politics so for everyone to turn on him in order to just go along with Rhys and Feyre who only showed this image of Rhys being a ruthless killer and Feyre being his whore just goes back to my other pet peeve, when everyone immediately jerks off the main character/coupling.
Rhys and Tamlin's relationship as of the start of book 3 is very interesting and complex in my opinion. I just wish that between them wasn't SJM jerking off her main character Feyre and her massive ego. Rhys and Tamlin have valid reasons to hate each other and I want more of that history between them and a real conversation but having Feyre making both of them even more stupid just gives me a headache.
I get that Feyre was meant to be a stupid girl in ACOTAR but how is she more irritating in later books than she was in the first one?
Tamlin participated in High Fae politics so for everyone to turn on him in order to just go along with Rhys and Feyre who only showed this image of Rhys being a ruthless killer and Feyre being his whore just goes back to my other pet peeveYou know, I think this is just another great example of SJM's own bias with her writing style. It just makes NO SENSE that the other High Lord's would suspect Tamlin was a traitor. It makes no sense that Feyre or Rhys would think that, either. (Eris is another obvious one. How can Rhys, who literally wore a mask of a monster for FIFTY YEARS not spot this??)
There's just no way all these characters would be this stupid.
I think she's done this with a few characters. She doesn't just describe things--she describes them in a way where she wants you to feel the exact way SHE does about them. Rather than being an objective storyteller, as an author should, imo. I thought she did this in TOG too, so I really think it's her writing style, unfortunately. :/
Personally, this is how I would have done the main ships:
- Rhys and Feyre
- Nesta and Eris (this would be the shocking mate pairing, rather than Lucien and Elain)
- Cassian and Mor (I think this was originally SJM's plan long ago)
- Azriel and Elain
- Tamlin and Emerie (the Illyrian female Cassian meets in acofas)
- Lucien and Vassa
- Amren and a female Illyrian warrior (I'm sorry her and Varian is so weird to me and forced)
Lot of cross/court relationships here, which would lead to some interesting stories, I think. As well as building an alliance between courts.
WinterRose wrote: "I read the synopsis of A Court of Silver Flames"I read it too. It's such a basic story Nesta gets there. Oh external evils, unresolved threats looming again over our heroes. Only Nesta and Cassian's love for one another can overcome these new foes.
Firstly. Fuck off!
And secondly. Why does Maas always add conflict to her story by having the threat be external, rather than internal.
Why can't we have a book in which the characters become themselves some sort of threat and the conflict arises when they have to choose which side they are on, theirs or their loved ones. How do their loved ones handle the idea of them being like that. Are they well and truly lost? Will Nesta become *gasp* a villain!
But no, Maas just took the most basically bland formula and stuffed her characters into that mold hoping they fit. Nesta is flawed and is not your average goodie two shoes, "I would do anything for you, you can step on my head anytime you want yas! queen" sort of female character that Maas is overly fond of. She has so much potential to break free of the mold. If Maas LETS her.
Wait... who's Eris?
Briana wrote: "Hearing that she spends so much time burying Tamlin and destroying him when she is supposedly so happy with the Night Court and Rhysand just doesn't sit well with me." If there's one thing you have to keep in mind if you want to start reading ACOWAR it's this. Read the book, KNOWING that Tamlin is undoubtedly a spy and Feyra is too much of a moron to figure it out. And you're all set.
Why does Maas always add conflict to her story by having the threat be external, rather than internal.Because Nesta vowed she wanted the humans queens dead, so of course we get that. But this really should be a civil war story with the Illyrians vs the Night Court sort of thing. Then bring the queens back for Elain's book.
Nesta fits a villain mold far better, imo. This could have been an awesome villain decent story but no, can't have that. Twu luv shall conquer all. *gags* Seriously I gagged when I read the line about healing in each other's arms.
Eris is Lucien's older brother, the one Mor was supposed to marry. I get the impression we don't know the truth of all that history (surprise, surprise). There's enough bread crumbs there to show he's wearing a mask like Rhys did, though I think he's much darker--like Nesta. IMO Cassian is a golden boy and I LOVE him but I'd rather Nesta be with someone who is more...sharp of mind, clever, maybe a bit ambitious, and very morally gray.
WinterRose wrote: "IMO Cassian is a golden boy and I LOVE him but I'd rather Nesta be with someone who is more...sharp of mind, clever, maybe a bit ambitious, and very morally gray."I have no strong connection to the Court of Dreams, particularly Cassian and Mor. They are just too cookie cutter in terms of characterization for my taste.
You know your talk about Nesta having someone sharp witted, clever, ambitious and morally grey as a romantic fit for her may just be the best segway you can gimme for a sidenote recommending you watch Hamilton. Please watch it, it's such a good musical... and I say that as a person does not like musicals :D
Back on topic, what Maas could probably learn from a well crafted story, with distinct and memorable characters like Hamilton (which is based on real people) is that a character is much more interesting and compelling when their morality is not clearly defined as black or white, much like the main protagonist, Alexander Hamilton, and the deuteragonist Aaron Burr.
I can definitely see that. I think Azriel is probably the most layered, though we haven't peeled those layers off yet. (I would have said Rhys was in ACOTAR but that was clearly a mask. I was kind of bummed it was tbh.) I personally don't care much about Amren. Not that I don't like her, I just feel indifferent. If she wasn't there, I wouldn't notice. Lol I have yet to see Hamilton. Honestly I just had no interest. I'm not a big musical person either unless it's a Disney musical. (If you ever get a chance to see the lion king on Broadway do it!) So a historical one REALLY doesn't interest me....but I might check it out. :) I think it's great they put it on streaming.
I agree. Manon is my favorite of hers. I'm kind of hoping we get a spinoff with her as the protagonist bc I feel like her arc (and Dorian's) wasn't quite tied up neatly enough, haha.
WinterRose wrote: "So a historical one REALLY doesn't interest me....but I might check it out. :) I think it's great they put it on streaming."Well Hamilton is the sort of show you think you might hate because of the premise, until you actually get to see it for yourself. The only thing I'd recommend to you is go in blind.
The only thing I knew about it, myself, going in was the fact that it's a hip hop musical, that mere idea made me intrigued, even though, like I said, I hate musicals.
I'm not sure if I CAN watch the Lion King musical... I don't live in America so I have no access to it. But I'm hoping it's more intriguing than the animation which I don't like and think it's over-hyped in some respects (not all, but quite a few).
As for Azriel and Manon, well 1. I'm not really interested to learn more about Azriel, because all we've gotten is from Feyra and Feyra is not one to... present the reader with a lot of detail about characters that she is not obsessed about. That's probably why for the longest time, on my first readthrough of ACOMAF I could not distinguish between Azriel and Cassian because they felt and looked (in my head) so similar.
2. Manon's story I think is over, there's probably nothing new to add to it and so is Dorian's despite the seeming unsatisfying ending they both got. That said, you're absolutely right about the idea that we basically have no idea what's gonna happen to Manon after Kingdom of Ash, because I'm not sure Maas ever MENTIONED what she's gonna do.
I probably will watch it. I just have to get in the mood haha. Well if you visit America you'll have to! Of course they're in New York City, but they tour the states. (Who knows when that'll happen now though with this darn virus.) I've also seen Aladdin and The Little Mermaid. All are great, but The Lion King is still my favorite. (Broadway musical wise that is)
I think SJM left some threads open in case she wants to write more in that world. I'd like to see how Manon copes with losing the Thirteen and where she goes from there. And obviously with Dorian, him ruling now that the war is over. Then you have Aelin and Rowan rebuilding Terrasen--not that I want more Aelin, but still, there's a lot of space for a story.
WinterRose wrote: "And obviously with Dorian, him ruling now that the war is over. Then you have Aelin and Rowan rebuilding Terrasen--not that I want more Aelin, but still, there's a lot of space for a story."That would certainly make one boring story.
I am so happy that i found this! I read ACOTAR in 2017 and i remember liking it very much, Lucien was my favorite character and still is. Then i read ACOMAF and was heavily disappointed with how rushed and obviously played i was by the author, but i went with the flow only to finish the main three books and find myself way to relaxed and empty. various of the story and plot lines that were so interesting were cut or not shown at all just for the sake of having the main couple happy in their perfect bubble.
I WISH this books were written with more than one POV or maybe with neither, or at the very least changing of character for every book. But it is not, and it is frustrating because it has a lot of potential to be so much better. Thankfully she is moving to write in multiple pov again.
I realised now that i never really like SJM protags and reading all this made me noticed why since i never put a lot of thougt in why precisly.
I will say that i think that many of the issues of this series are a result of poorly planing and executing, since SJM said that at the beginning she saw Elaine and Nesta as the evil sister of cinderella, and later on she include them as part of the plot, meaning she didn't care about them enough to make them compelling characters until when the oportunity of making them romance interest for the others came.
I really hope for a redeption/healing arc of Tamlin, prefferebly with Lucien there to support him, they deserve so much more.
Nesta as a villan would be amaizing! at least a good villan in this series. Amarantha and Hybern where so bland and forgetable imo, and what is with express wars that SJM likes so much? all this courts, all the intrigue the politics, the interesting colors and traditions of each, souns like a payground for conflicts and yet it is a nobody that comes and threatens them.
But lets not forget that this was also a ploy device for the power couple to be the saviour OF ALL, because Rhys was a dreamer♥♥ since the very begining and we most love him for that.
i apologize for the typos, i haven't slept in a while and i am ranting in english
Belen wrote: "I am so happy that i found this! "Well this conversation has been going on for the better part of two years, with meanderings here and there, mentioning Throne of Glass, Feyra's stupidity and Hamilton recommendations, to name a few, but it has consistently brought in people who have an explicit dislike for SJM's ability to do justice to her characters and her stories.
I think SJM is probably the most unimaginative author whose books I've read, because most of her books fall into the same plot mold (female protagonist - external threat - savior of the world - lots of romance) BOOM. Rinse and repeat!
If I were to pick up Crescent City or whatever the name of her new series is, I bet 100 dollars that it follows this exact formula. Which has me thinking, if Sarah J. Maas does not impress people with her originality (like say Sanderson, Schwab or Jemisin do) why does she even write?
At so many points in my reading both ACOTAR and Throne of Glass I've had many eurika! moments in which an alternate plotline came to my mind, like say: Aelin killing Dorian's father and... the main conflict just ending there, with Aelin having no enemy to fight anymore and yet stubbornly going forward to take Terrasen which she claims it's rightfully hers, and sparking a civil war against her own country so she can conquer it. That would have been SO awesome, from a narrative point of view because it would mean that we've been following a villain this whole time, but unfortunately, Maas tries her darndest to throw uninteresting external threats and villains at her protagonists so we don't, not even for one moment, start thinking that they may become one themselves, even though all the signs are there, mind you.
I'm not sure Tamlin will get a redemption arc, or if he does it will probably be a generic save them with love storyline, which is kind of like bringing a random stranger to fix your own problems for you.
Nicko wrote: "WinterRose wrote: "And obviously with Dorian, him ruling now that the war is over. Then you have Aelin and Rowan rebuilding Terrasen--not that I want more Aelin, but still, there's a lot of space f..."Lol I just mean there's a lot of shit going on for some internal conflict. SJM does always do external, so it might be interesting to see a more internal, politically driven story. I must admit I'm a sucker for court intrigue. Usually, stories end after the war, so I'd like to see what happens next. Personally I think it'd be cool to see a crossover between her worlds, just to see the characters interact and face a common enemy.
Welcome Belen!
You know, I feel like ACOTAR would have worked really well if planned from the start as maybe 4-5 books, told from Feyre, Nesta and Elain--you know, as a journey of three sisters. I personally didn't care for the way SJM did multi pov in TOG in the first few books, so I'd lean on pov's of people who aren't romantically together.
So many author's do this--they retell the same scene more than once and give everything away, which annoys the shit out of me. This usually happens when you're following characters who are in a relationship. I remember reading a scene about Celaena's dress THREE TIMES bc I had to read about it in her pov, Chaol's and Dorian's. Same scene and dress three times. I hate this with a burning passion which is why I avoid dual pov books like the plague. I tend to like multi pov if I'm following characters who are not physically sharing a lot of scenes. Like, following different journeys, more so than hearing about the same scenes from different povs--if that makes sense?
Her new book is no doubt Cassian and Nesta's pov's, and considering they're going to spend a lot of time together, that's just going to be painful for me to read. I know some people like that, knowing what both characters are thinking, but for me it annoys me.
You're both right though, the ACOTAR villains were very weak and one dimensional. Amarantha was like a very watered down Maeve and the king was so generic. I think Arobynn was her best villain, tbh. Nesta really could be a great one, but SJM would never have the nerve.
WinterRose wrote: "Like, following different journeys, more so than hearing about the same scenes from different povs--if that makes sense?"Actually it makes a whole lot of sense because unlike many dual PoV books, multi-POV actually take the time to show us more of the world and give more personality into these characters we're following.
Atm my favorite multi-POV story is .. obviously, the Stormlight Archive and during its prologue it gives multiple points of view from several of the characters who were present on the day... (it's not a spoiler, it happens at the very beginning in the first book) King Gavilar is mudered and the trigerring of the war on the Shattered Plains. We see that very same night from: the murderer's perspective in book 1, the king's daughter in book 2 and a named Emissary sent to make peace with the king in book 3. It's all very fascinating because we never see the exact moments play out, because these people are very different and have vastly different ways of thinking and are NEVER in the same room, even though they are living the same event.
And I have to say Maeve is a very watered down version of Queen Azshara from Warcraft lore.
Short summary, Azshara was the queen of the Night Elf empire, back when they practiced magic and were called Highborne. She was the most powerful mage to have ever walked Azeroth, she was told that so often that she developed a God-complex that makes Kvothe (from The Name of the Wind) look humble by comparison. She made a pact with a dark titan called Sargeras to bring an army of demons through the fount of the Highborne's power, called the Well of Eternity, all because she wanted more power. When the demon invasion was repelled, the Well of Eternity imploded on itself, leading to the Sundering of Azeroth's massive singular continent. The Sundering lead to the destruction of Zin-Azshari, the capital of the Night Elf empire, that was built right on top of the Well of Eternity. The rest of what happens is told magnificently in this animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hndyT...
Sidenote: Yes, at the end of the video, the creatures you see there are the naga, as they are represented in Warcraft lore. So whenever Maas uses the word naga in ACOTAR, THAT's what I think about.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
The Liar’s Key (other topics)
Ash Princess (other topics)
Blood of Elves (other topics)
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
Scythe (other topics)The Liar’s Key (other topics)
Ash Princess (other topics)
Blood of Elves (other topics)
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (other topics)
More...
Well, I did eventually come back and read books 1 and 2 after I finished all of the book. I was coming back into the series with two things in mind: 1. analyse the characters and the story 2. maybe it was not all that bad as I remember it. Spoiler warning... Book 2 was, but I have a new found appreciation for book 1.
A Court of Thorns and Roses Anaylsis Review
A Court of Mist and Fury Analysys Review < I am particularly critical of this book.
(You may be wondering why I'm linking my reviews... well I don't think like you'd want to read a walltext of me quoting my reviews so I just linked them :P)