A Court of Frost and Starlight (A Court of Thorns and Roses, #3.1) A Court of Frost and Starlight discussion


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A case against the constant vilifying of Tamlin

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message 1: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Jun 08, 2018 04:25PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Topic contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!

I know I am going to piss off a lot of people with these statements, but it is my firm belief that the reason why Tamlin is such a hated character in the ACOTAR series is due to lazy writing on Sarah J. Maas's part.

Now, I am not here to start a fight or offend anyone's opinion with my own, I am simply here to discuss an issue that has been bothering me constantly while reading this series and has only been amplified in ACOFAS.

And that is the constant vilifying of Tamlin's character.

See here, Sarah J. Maas was probably so excited to write a series revolving around Feyra - I know it's Feyre, but I call her Feyra cuz it's more convenient for me - and Rhys instead of Feyra and Tamlin, that instead of writing Feyra as gradually falling out of love with Tamlin and having them separate on more civil terms, Sarah J. Maas has magnified Tamlin's already existing defects and has constantly nudged the reader into thinking that Tamlin is an unredeemable character. Promptly making the reader forget the good he has done in this series.

I don't deny that Tamlin is unstable, I don't deny that he threw in his lot with the King of Hybern just so he can get Feyra back and I will not deny that he has hurt her. By A Court of Frost and Starlight, Tamlin has suffered the consequences of his actions and as a result, everyone has abandoned him, the Spring Court mansion is in a state of disrepair and the broken furniture around his house suggest that he has become more and more unstable as a result. Truth be told anyone put in the same position as him, of shame, loneliness and self-loathing would probably be just as emotionally unstable.

-----

I don't know if anyone has noticed these hints scattered throughout the narration, but Tamlin seems to be suffering from clinical depression.
As someone who has gone through a horrible stage of depression myself, I could empathize with him, more than I would normally, because I understood how he felt in ACOFAS. I understand why he is so dismissive of everyone, even Lucien, and why he is also really unstable and fluctuates between hollowness and rage in a heartbeat. What bothers me personally is how the main characters don't even try to listen to his side of the story. It's true he may be too unstable to say it out loud without throwing things, but his situation would lessen and not worsen if there was someone that actively sought to help him.

It just rubs me the wrong way the idea that as soon as you throw in your lot with the Big Bad you automatically become unredeemable in this series. I am sure that Feyra and Rhys have done their fair share of horrible things, such as lie, manipulate, kill, but they are not treated as unredeemable characters.


Fire heart Nicko wrote: "Topic contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!

I know I am going to piss off a lot of people with these statements, but it is my firm belief that the reason why Tamlin is such a hated character i..."


I agree! The part about Tamlin ruined the whole book for me. If anybody remembers, despite the fact that Rhys is with the woman he loves, he still helped bring him back. He still brought in his army which turned the tide of the war.
I think that Tamlin had already paid the consequences for his mistakes, and he is suffering more than he should. Nobody deserves to be in his position. The book clearly says that Tamlin was waiting for someone to kill him, and this broke my heart. I swear, I was on the verge of crying. Yes, Tamlin did some bad things, but he does not deserve this. And Rhys, he made everything worse. I think that if the other characters bothered to help (Lucien does, but the others could help too) Tamlin would be feeling much better about himself.
And it also angers me that everybody forgives Rhys for his sins simply because he is Feyre's mate. Most readers mistake Tamlin for the villain. I truthfully think that Tamlin is not a villain, but a hero in need of help.


Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Fire heart wrote: "The book clearly says that Tamlin was waiting for someone to kill him, and this broke my heart. I swear, I was on the verge of crying. "

That scene DID make me cry and not because I cared about Tamlin in particular (Heavens know I can find a lot wrong with him and I will readily admit it), but what that scene represented to me. It was my realization that Tamlin was going through severe depression and, as someone who's just gotten past a truly grueling period of depression myself, seeing Rhys be so unnecessarily cruel to him and not even think how much his words will mark Tamlin was just too much for me.
It brought flashbacks of my twin sister telling me how happy she was with her boyfriend, shoving her happiness in my face while I was feeling like I don't deserve to even exist in this world. So I started crying and I was in the subway station and I didn't care. I felt too personally hurt to care what those people around me thought.

That is the thing with the ACOTAR series, isn't it? Rhys is put on this pedestal wherein no one questions his actions or calls him out for being a complete dick-wad of a person, because he is just SO speshul and yet we have Tamlin who's just been constantly beaten down and had everything around him crumble.
FFS! Feyra doesn't even apologize - nay - acknowledge the fact that she utterly ruined him and took it a step too far. And both Rhys and Feyra's actions towards him come with complete disregard to the fact that he ruling other people and their actions have consequences on THEM as well.


Lara Melissa I agree with everything!!!!!


Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Lara wrote: "I agree with everything!!!!!"

Aww you're so enthusiastic, I like you :3


mariam Nicko wrote: "Topic contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!

I know I am going to piss off a lot of people with these statements, but it is my firm belief that the reason why Tamlin is such a hated character i..."

I know righttt!! But and however, I think Tamlin's character standing will change. J maas previewed him in not quite a villainous light, more of a pitiful one. I think things will get better with him in the next book... hopefully...



Lara Melissa Nicko wrote: "Lara wrote: "I agree with everything!!!!!"

Aww you're so enthusiastic, I like you :3"


Thank you, I just think that you've made a pretty valid point. I never really thought of Tamlin as the villain, and I always thought I was a horrible person for thinking that and could never tell any of my other friends that are also fans of ACOTAR, so I'm glad I at least get to share my opinions with you. :)


Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) (Sidenote: I declined your invitation by accident because I didn't check my feeds before I checked my friend request, so technically I didn't knew you when I "declined" your friend request) ^^;

Well, I am of the belief that it's a shame to not fully explore a character, whatever his personality because you, as an author, like another one better. The Feyra-Tamlin > Feyra-Rhys transition was handled really poorly from a writing pespective, because it does not show objective and understandable reasons for it occurring. Yes, Tamlin threw in his lot with Hybern but there has to be an ulterior motive, because just saying that Tamlin was evil all along IS NOT a reason. It's an excuse the author came up with in order to not write a compelling reason.
One theory that circulates around Tamlin (that I have yet to confirm - haven't reached that part in my rereading yet) is that he is using his "love for Feyra" to act as infiltrator to Hybern, in order to help the other courts defeat him. If that's the case then Feyra is genuinely a dimwit for not picking that up! As well as the readers for believing her.
See here, Feyra's personal hatred for Tamlin is what's MAKING the reader hate Tamlin! And this is where I come in and say that it's the fault of the author, yet again, for using 1st person limited narration.


message 9: by AJ (new) - added it

AJ I completely agree with your point. I was actually both horrified and disappointed to see how Sarah handled Tamlin - and Rhysand, to be truthful - in ACOFAS. As you said, Tamlin already suffered and paid for his mistakes. The natural route for him to take as a character would be to grow and learn, but instead I feel like he was completely broken as a character. One thing is to suddenly heel turn a character,who was almost defined by his rage to a character drowning in depression; another thing is to then also treat that depressed person awfully. To be honest, there has been so many inconsistencies surrounding Tamlin as a character, for example the way his and Feyre's relationship was handled in the end. You know, there has never really been any closure for Tamlin and Feyre's relationship. Even seen only from Feyre's perspective, the sudden break was actually not very thoughtful writing. Personally, I was really confused as to why Feyre never spoke with Tamlin again. Like, I understand why she didn't want to give him the opportunity to trap her again, but she was ready to marry this dude at one point, she loved him, and then their relationship, of course, went down the drain, but how the hell did she leave it behind so open-ended? Psycologically speaking, that is just really unusual. A romantic relationship like theirs is a strong attachment, and it was just snipped?? Instead of exploring the emotional and psycological fallout from their relationship, Sarah sped through the process by making Tamlin a villain and a hated character (I am not excusing his behaviour, sisters, but the portrayal was heavily biased). And, I think, considering how well a lot of the other characters' mental states and traumas were handled, it is strange that Tamlin has not recieved any of that same attention from the author. I thought the portrayal of him in ACOFAS was pitiful and poorly written.


Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) AJ wrote: "Instead of exploring the emotional and psycological fallout from their relationship, Sarah sped through the process by making Tamlin a villain and a hated character."

Like I said, the author was probably too excited with the idea of Feyra and Rhys in ACOMAF to actually bother to explain or justify anything Tamlin thinks, says or does. The idea that so many people are on board with what Feyra readily thinks about Tamlin in ACOMAF is really alarming, making me wonder if the readers are actually paying attention to the character and not the image of the character painted by Feyra.

I have started a reread of the ACOTAR series (Feyra's arc) to see if indeed Tamlin is what people believe he is. And apparently, as far as ACOTAR goes... no. He is not "evil all along" - because he says over and over that he does not want to become like his father, he is not putting on a facade (like Rhys is in the same book) he genuinely seems like he is doing everything for the good of his court and there feels to be no ulterior motive (maybe a few hidden stuff due to Amarantha's curse).
I am out to prove that everything that Feyra feels towards Tamlin is influenced by Rhys' personal grudge against Tamlin. That he has consciously molded Feyra (and the reader) into hating Tamlin with a passion. And that Tamlin seeing both the woman he loved and his enemy turn against him just cannot handle it from a physiological level. Does that mean I believe that he was always evil and that he throws in his lot with Hybern because he wanted Feyra back.
Actually no, because I believe this idea that he is using his "obsession for Feyra" in order to infiltrate Hybern's ranks. And I bet the other courts (EXCEPT the Night Court) know this.


Steph LaPlante Contains spoilers.
When I first read the title of this discussion I made a face and then after reading the discussions and the comments, I have to agree with you. Tamlin is definitely not my favourite character, however, but I do think he was treated pretty unfairly.
Every single character in this book did absolutely awful things in the name of love. Feyre killing the child and the mother, Rhys killing countless people to protect those he loved, and Tamlin went and sold out Feyre sisters to the king to get Feyre back in the name of love. I actually rolled my eyes when this happened, please explain how any sensible person would think winning back the person you love is to sell her sisters out?
The whole reason Rhys and Tamlin hate each other makes sense, however, choosing to only feel bad for Rhys is unfair to Tamlin.
It made me sad that at the beginning of ACOMAF Feyre is having a hard time dealing with what she had to do under the mountain, and Tamlin chose to completely ignore her nightmares and her waking up ill every night. However, that is who Tamlin is. That is how
Tamlin deals with his own pain, he doesn't, he hopes it will just go away. This is not what Feyre wanted, she needed someone who would talk to her and try and help her. Painting Tamlin as a villain for not wanting to talk to her is unfair, especially because I can't remember one instance where Feyre tried talking to him about it at all (correct me if I'm wrong).
Feyre did completely destroy the Spring court and accidentally aided in a lot of deaths that occurred there. Her and Tamlin's relationship was pretty abusive both emotionally and physically (obsession, rage) so I can see why she chooses not to go and visit him, but sending Rhys knowing he will be cruel to Tamlin was not fair on her part. He lost everything, clearly has depression, he needs help not taunting.
One thing I don't really understand about Feyre's character is how she can be extremely strong and independent, then all of a sudden can be extremely influenced by someone's opinion. She hated Rhys because both Lucien and Tamlin hated him. Then as soon as she goes to the Night Court she hates Tamlin, one because of how he treated her, but two because of Rhys. There are two sides to every story and with centuries of history both sides of the story kind of suck.


message 12: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Aug 21, 2018 12:11PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Steph wrote: "Painting Tamlin as a villain for not wanting to talk to her is unfair, especially because I can't remember one instance where Feyre tried talking to him about it at all (correct me if I'm wrong).
Feyre did completely destroy the Spring court and accidentally aided in a lot of deaths that occurred there."


I can't really correct you on that, because I haven't really reached that part of my rereading the ACOTAR series phase (I'm doing it for the sake of analysis and to see if which of Tamlin's actions are truly deserving of hate and which are not - I'm going on ahead and analyzing many of the other characters and seeing their strengths and weaknesses as standalone characters).

Also let us not forget that she basically facilitated the Hybern march on the wall because of her single-minded revenge plan, which was probably not even warranted given that (I don't really know if this is true or not, I need to reread ACOWAR for that - this) Tamlin was a mole. An infiltrator in Hybern's court in order to help the other courts which were his allies.
The fact that the Night Court don't even suspect that THAT is the case with Tamlin just goes to show how completely isolated from Prythian politics the whole Night Court is.

^ Umm... I am not completely sure on my fact for this last paragraph it's been a while since I read ACOWAR or ACOMAF so my memory of them is really fuzzy.

As for the Feyra being influenced part, I don't think it's a matter of influence so much as proof when it comes to viewing Rhysand in a negative light. Rhysand did 1. threaten lucien and his mother 2. made Tamlin and lucien grovel for Feyra's life and enjoyed every moment of it and 3. scared the living daylights out of her. In this regard, Tamlin's words about Rhysand are reinforced the very first time they are all in the same room.
Now as for the Feyra being influenced by Rhysand in order to view Tamlin as he views him is probably the most plausible reason as to why Feyra hates him so much. Heavens forbid, Rhysand is not above petty grudges that he seems to keep on Tamlin, even if he had a hand in his family's murder or not, and he DOES make sure that both the reader and Feyra feel pity for him and hates Tamlin. If ACOMAF was in reality one huge revenge plan against Tamlin for the petty grudge Rhysand keep holding against him, then by golly is is so unsubtle!


Emily Fire heart wrote: "Nicko wrote: "Topic contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!

I know I am going to piss off a lot of people with these statements, but it is my firm belief that the reason why Tamlin is such a hat..."

Ok this is not meant to piss everyone off but it does need to be brought to attention. While he does not deserve everything he has been through it is important to acknowledge that he trapped Feyre in an abusive relationship. Yes, she has done bad things...yes, Rhysand has done bad things and they have also suffered severe depression as a result. However, in my opinion, trapping someone in a highly abusive relationship IS inexcusable. Anywho, just some thoughts to put out there.


message 14: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Sep 22, 2018 05:05AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Emily wrote: "However, in my opinion, trapping someone in a highly abusive relationship IS inexcusable."

Well I wouldn't go as far as say trap. Because no one forced her into the relationship. And no one held her in that relationship except herself.
See here, as far as I remember Feyra has done much of nothing to change the status quo of her relationship. She saw that it was turning sour but she did nothing to either better it or get away from it, until it was too late. And yes, it's Tamlin who turned this relationship abusive, but it's Feyra who permitted the occurance of the abuse. If she'd had a bit of spine - depression notwithstanding - she wouldn't have permitted Tamlin to go as far as he did.

You know, she kinna reminds me of my own sister's relationship, that is JUST as abusive as Feyra's and yet, despite everything me and my family tell her, she simply does not want to change the status quo, because she has "hope" that it will sort itself out, if she sacrifices MORE of her sanity, MORE of her health, MORE her nerves for this dickwad of a person who's controlling every aspect of her life - even going as far as forbidding her to talk to us about how dysfunctional her relationship and getting mad whenever she does talk to us. It's a shame that she's in a long distance relationship else I'd put a restraining order on him, in her stead.

I am sorry for not sympathizing with Feyra. It's her own damn fault for not standing up to him and drawing a line between what she permits and what she doesn't permit in her relationship with him.

This idea of a abusive relationship she has with Tamlin is the primary aspect I really dislike from him, despite my vehement rejection (with pretty valid arguments, mind you) of everything ELSE he is accused for. I am NOT on board with how he treats Feyra. But don't expect me to hate him as a character completely because of actions that were basically enabled by Feyra herself. She had no obligation to put up with him after she sees that her relationship goes sour, and yet she does.


Cailey Mac I felt the same way! I'm REALLY hoping for a few scenes on Tamlin in the next installment, and I want to see him slowly turn around ( not just because he found someone to complete him, blah blah blah) but to see him actually come out of his depression. I think it would be sweet if Lucien and maybe even Elaine or Nesta steps in with him ( since one is his best friend, and the other two sisters definitely understand depression and have or are there currently in different ways ) to help lift him back up and become a different sort of happy and strong. I think it would be a good message to readers, to show that the "villain" may not always be "bad" and that there are redeemable qualities to each person ( mostly ) if given the proper chance to.

I HATED seeing him so down, and to me it seemed like Rhysand was very dismissive of it, despite all the supposed character growth they have both been through. I thought that part was very bad form on his end.


Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Cailey Mac wrote: "I think it would be a good message to readers, to show that the "villain" may not always be "bad" and that there are redeemable qualities to each person ( mostly ) if given the proper chance to."

What you're mentioning here is probably a plot-line taken out of Sailor Moon (Original Anime). And I am referring to the idea that with help even the darkest of characters can be seen in the light.

But god knows, Sarah J. Maas has a very black and white view of her characters. And most of them WON'T budge!
Celaena/Aelin had the potential to be a really interesting grey character but she was turned white, all her past deeds as an assassin forgotten!
Rhys was turned from a dark-grey into the beacon of white everywhere cuz he's a god damned saint and Tamlin who was previously whitish-grey turned grey-black, because of how Feyra sees him.

It is up to the writer to decide what she'll do with Tamlin and as far as I can predict, she'll probably kill him off to save herself the time of writing an interesting redemption arc for him.


message 17: by Jetblack1999 (last edited Dec 20, 2018 11:05AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jetblack1999 Tamlin is a control freak with a nasty temper who does not love but gets obsessed and does not take NO for an answer. Just because he is hot and feels bad does not excuse his behavior. Locking someone in the house, not giving out information about outside world, not taking NO for an answer, thrashing the place and acting like a maniac, in his rage injuring his wife to be, ignoring her needs, feelings and clear depression. Typical domestic violence case! That guy is a psycho!


message 18: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Dec 20, 2018 10:57PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Relika wrote: "Typical domestic violence case! That guy is a psycho!"

Yes, but... who is filtering all the information the reader gets about him?

On a first level it's the author who is relaying this information to us, but on a second level it's Feyra who, I'm sorry to say, there's no denying she's a complete idiot and willfully puts herself in harm's way despite what other people say to her. She reads like a whiny teen that throws a temper tantrum whenever her parents don't meet her demands right there and then.

I am not condoning Tamlin's atitude, temper or his treatment of her (I said as much in my post, I don't like the way he lets his anger control him so completely - I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of such a relationship), but I cannot sympathize with Feyra when she is the one who chooses to ignore every warning she gets from other characters (yes, Tamlin included. In ACOMAF, in the first few chapters, Feyra wants to ride off to see her family and he tells her "no", because the forests are crawling with Amarantha's ilk - who more or less want to get revenge on HER, in particular - and yet she stubbornly drones on that she wants to go).

The reader, in ACOMAF, gets a subjective negative bias on Tamlin and the Feyra/Tamlin's relationship from Feyra herself. It's not unearned, by any means, however it a greatly vilifying bias, nonetheless. The flip of the coin is that Rhysand gets a completely sanctifying bias from Feyra as a result of this, despite him torturing her in ACOTAR (he twisted the bone shard lodged in her shoulder to goad her into accepting the bargain - I did a careful reread of ACOTAR a few months ago, that part is undeniably there). I don't think Tamlin went as far as purposefully harming her physically to get what he wanted. Rhysand however did and it's him that Feyra chooses in the end... makes you wonder.

As a sidenote there are people who are control freaks in real life and can be decent people if they want to be. My sister is in a relationship with one. He CAN be a decent person, but he's verbally and mentally abusing my sister and he doesn't care when I call him out on it, so I have a negative bias against him and for good reason, because I love my sister. That's my subjective opinion of him.

In the end she chooses to be with him, because she has hope that he isn't always like this. I can't say who's right in this situation me or my sister, but the fact of the matter is that my sister's boyfriend has some serious control freak tendencies and anger management issues that do not bode well with me, personally, and are not good for my sister's mental health, no matter what I say (she's just a shell of the person she used to be, her self-confidence is in shambles, he's isolated her from me and my family, he's methodically entered her social media accounts and blocked me from all of them, with her permission ofc, cuz her relationship is more important than the idea that I can't even send my sister a cute cat picture once in a while, and all she ever does or speak about is relative to her boyfriend or her relationship with her boyfriend) - these are my personal reasons for despising him.

How this relates to Tamlin is as such. He may be a control freak, and have a nasty temper and all that, but seriously Feyra isn't really a saint herself so why should I judge him based on the subjective view of the author and a character that I do not sympathize with. In my rereads of ACOTAR I try to objectively find reasons for why the characters act the way they act, and the conclusion I've come with is that Tamlin loves Feyra too much that he errs into overprotectiveness, he wants to help her, but doesn't know how because Feyra is a pretentious little shit and he's started to be fed up with her constantly ignoring what he tells her to do, even if it is for her own good.


Jetblack1999 And the conclusion I've come with is that Tamlin loves Feyra too much that he errs into overprotectiveness, he wants to help her, but doesn't know how because Feyra is a pretentious little shit and he's started to be fed up with her constantly ignoring what he tells her to do, even if it is for her own good.

People still need to be able make their own decisions. Because he loves her and thinks that he knows whats best for her does not make it OK. Also he is selfish, he has ZERO Feyra interests in mind, he only cares about how it makes HIM feel if he lost her etc. He disregards her wants/needs/feelings completely. How many times have we all made decisions that our family/friends dont care for, understand or think its plain dumb.

At that point of the book Feyra fell in love with the first thing thrown at her - Tamlin who is hot & powerful and sexy - meanwhile she is immature, grief stricken, yearning for belonging and appreciation and just easier life - or so she thinks at the time. Also since she is in love and Tamlin keeps apologizing she keeps
going back to the bad relationship and making excuses for his behavior.

Tamlins constant rage fits at everything - the throwing of the stuff, tearing apart things, executing the guards who "let her go" with night court. If she would have stayed he would have killed her in the fit of rage on purpose or by accident, or she would have withered away.

The flip of the coin is that Rhysand gets a completely sanctifying bias from Feyra as a result of this, despite him torturing her in ACOTAR (he twisted the bone shard lodged in her shoulder to goad her into accepting the bargain - I did a careful reread of ACOTAR a few months ago, that part is undeniably there). I don't think Tamlin went as far as purposefully harming her physically to get what he wanted. Rhysand however did and it's him that Feyra chooses in the end... makes you wonder.

In answer to that Rhys hurt her on purpose and for a reason, it was not miscalculated - OOPS I almost killed you in my rage fit, thankfully ur a Fae now and can take the hit. Rhys is doing under the mountain the whole time what he needs to keep her safe from the present threat, not the MAYBE threat that Tamlin keeps imagining and then "protecting" her from.

I thought that was completely stupid for Feyra to go under the mountain like that, but again - she is young and immature and stupid, in love. And Tamlin like a duche Is sitting there the whole time and does NOTHING, does not even try to do anything. But then selfishly tries to make out with her - so protecting her only works when you are not horny? So selfish!

Also talk about selfish and bad decisions Tamlin selling out to the evil king and his stupid priestess selling out the sisters and Tamlin is still OK withe the priestess bullshit after that. Tamlin only cares about Tamlin.

And yes I feel bad for Tamlin now - all haggard and messed up and remorseful, but if she would have not left I bet she would have been dead by now. He needs a quiet mouse wife who follows his every rule and whim without question.


message 20: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Dec 21, 2018 08:58AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Jetblack1999 wrote: "And the conclusion...."

I'd appreciate if you'd put my quotes in italics please so I can understand which points you're discussing.

Tamlin was handled poorly, as a character and as a potential antagonist to Feyra and Rhysand. That's because we never get any other POV character EXCEPT for Feyra and Rhysand - who are both really negatively biased towards Tamlin.

And because of the idea that Maas uses both these characters to try to make me hate Tamlin, I reread ACOTAR with an objective lense. Trying to piece together, from an objective point of view, Feyra, Tamlin and Rhys's reasons, they motivations and their characters. I read a lot between the lines and dug deep into their conversations, what they are expressing and HOW they are expressing it. And lemme tell you, Tamlin is a much rounded character read this way. (In ACOTAR at least, haven't gotten to ACOMAF yet, but I will)

You are basically perpetuating the idea everyone has of Rhysand by finding excuses to his torturing Feyra, you do realise that, don't you? Whatever the case, he STILL tortured her. She should not be willing to accept him as an escape from Tamlin so easily.

Why is Rhysand so easy to forgive and not Tamlin? Haven't they both done terrible things to people around them and to Feyra too? Aren't both of them perpetuating the same "Stay in the kitchen, woman, and let a man do everything" mentality? Aren't they both massive assholes and extremely primal and territorial beings? Why is Rhysand considered swoonworthy and Tamlin is considered a tool (what does that even mean btw, gotta go check urban dictionary)?


Jetblack1999 Thanks for the tip about Italics - I'm totally new here on Goodreads ;).

And I will just agree to disagree at this point about Rhys. Hopefully we will see/read more of Tamlin and also his back story and see how it was, why he is the way he is and maybe he is able to redeem himself. Right now he seems kind of suicidal in his broken castle.

Also lot of times I notice that if I don't dislike a character at some point of the story, then the story is not written well.

Cant wait for the next book.

What are you reading meanwhile? Any suggestions @ Nicko?


message 22: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Dec 21, 2018 09:42AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Jetblack1999 wrote: "Hopefully we will see/read more of Tamlin and also his back story and see how it was, why he is the way he is and maybe he is able to redeem himself. Right now he seems kind of suicidal in his broken castle."

I would definitely want a book that clarifies him better as a character.
I have this theory - and bare in mind it's just a theory - that Tamlin was never at Amarantha's side. I'll quote what I wrote in my review of my ACOTAR analysis reread.

Speaking of things that make no sense, I couldn't understand Tamlin's constant apathy and impassiveness towards Feyra, Under the Mountain. His characterization throughout the book and at Feyra's third trial displays him as full of resolve and resistance towards Amarantha, and this part is not consistent. Lucien's explanation - that he is impassive because he doesn't want to let Amarantha know how well she can torture Feyra - is a good explanation, but I have my own theory.

And this goes back to Alis' words that Feyra cannot trust her senses, nor anyone, including Tamlin, Under the Mountain.
So who is to say that as soon as Feyra appeared on the scene, Amarantha hasn't glamoured a random faerie to sit impassively, looking like Tamlin by her side just to mess with Feyra? Who's to say she has NOT imprisoned him and that first true time Feyra actually sees him is at her third trial. Because THERE, more than anywhere else during the Under the Mountain part, is where Tamlin is the most consistent with his characterization, up until then. I'm surprised no one ever brings this possibility up.


This is simply a theory I came up with, because we never get to see Tamlin's side of the story, when it came to what happened to HIM Under the Mountain. He doesn't talk about it, I don't remember him mentioning anything about it, I might be wrong tho as i've forgotten most of what happened in ACOMAF.

Currently I am planning to finish Scythe and have The Liar’s Key and Ash Princess in pending. Other books I plan to read until the year is out is Blood of Elves and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (reread). I dunno what to recommend you as i dunno your tastes not really. But you can give Scythe a try, very thought provoking read.


Jetblack1999 Hmmm, maybe. The whole thing is fishy.
First of all with Tamlins temper - all of the sudden he is able to sit there without blinking an eye as Feyra almost dies during the trials. Also after her being injured not sending ANY help... Lucien did all of that on his own.
But at the same time the make out scene at the party he did seem himself.
In the end, when they took the hood off of him and he saw her in-front of him about to stab him, I think he would have been more shocked if he was just let out from under some enchantment etc.

But I agree - under the mountain part does not match the usual Tamlin characteristics. But again, we don't know what went on in his head & what was happening to him behind the scenes.


message 24: by Nadia (last edited Jan 02, 2019 11:17PM) (new) - added it

Nadia Uzoma Jetblack1999 wrote: "Hmmm, maybe. The whole thing is fishy.
First of all with Tamlins temper - all of the sudden he is able to sit there without blinking an eye as Feyra almost dies during the trials. Also after her b..."



First , Happy New Year!!
I think that his actions under the mountain was for her safety. Amarantha, had the hots for him for 50 years and all of a sudden this fragile human waltzes through and claims that she is in love for him. I feel at that moment the idea of cheering for her, or even the fear of seeking her out wouldn't be a good idea.


As for the vilifying of Tamlin, I think that the person we got in AMOTAR and ACOMAF are fairly consistent, but there is something that I feel is missing in SJM's mind. That Tamlin went through something traumatic and heartbreaking under the mountain. He wasn't coming back this half-hidden character as he was in beginning of ACOTAR, both physically and mentally. That's what is so frustrating about this series, the idea that one perspective is the right perspective In Feyre's eyes.

I think that we are missing as readers is Tamlin's POV. We don't know what he knew about anything. His mindset, his backstory. This depressive nature could have easily been something that Tamlin has been dealing with since his father and brothers were alive. There is something suspect about the idea that Rhysand's mother and sister were killed and we only heard it about in detail through Rhys. We never got the motivation or story about why it took place the way it did. I say this because there is Rhys's story and then there is Tamlin's story and there is the truth. Which could very well be the actual truth. The fact Rhys would actually go into spring to kill Tamlin's parents the same way with no remorse, or would wait until these is a big war meeting with all the High Lords to let that the FIRST TIME we would explain himself to Kallias about the children during this tenure under the mountain, are red flags for me.

And the fact that with everything that has happened within this series, the actual fact that Rhys had the nerve to walk to into that manor and sneer at the man who has lived also the same life that he has, and have no sympathy, no compassion for him is shameful and beyond cruel. No matter what he's done & Tamlin has done some dumb and hurtful things to both Rhysand and Feyre, Rhys should still have some respect and dignity, as he should relate to the way that Tamlin feels.


message 25: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Jan 03, 2019 03:48AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Nadia wrote: "I think that we are missing as readers is Tamlin's POV.."

Thank you, Nadia. Yes, that is exactly what this story lacks and it is, again, down to the execution.

Could the story have been better if we had a non-biased third person narration from any of the other characters and not just Feyra, starting ACOMAF onward? I think yes, because heavens know Feyra loves fangirling over the Night Court, so much so that she pushes away all the other people who seem to care about her (her sisters, Lucien etc).

I would have much preferred limited third person POVs from Nesta or Elaine, or Lucien or Tamlin or even other members of the Court of Dreams. I don't usually like sticking to one PoV character if that PoV character is not an interesting character to follow (best displayed in the climax of ACOWAR and Feyra's participation in it). Tamlin would be a really fascinating and conflicted character to explore, if Maas would just consider giving the readers a chance to know him better.

I am not a reader that takes for granted everything the author gives to me. I do not like Rhysand just because Feyra and the author sing his praises, I do not hate Tamlin just because Feyra's pissy and has to blame someone for her depression. And I will not take everything Feyra says as truth, because she is a reckless moron, who always seems to get into trouble, no matter what she does, has a complete and utter disregard for her family and friends if it suits her and is easily influenced by the sob stories of her lover.


message 26: by Nadia (new) - added it

Nadia Uzoma Nicko wrote: "Feyra says as truth, because she is a reckless moron, who always seems to get into trouble, no matter what she does, has a complete and utter disregard for her family and friends if it suits her and is easily influenced by the sob stories of her lover.
"


Yes, Nicko. I feel like Tamlin and Nesta are two sides of the same coin when it comes to Feyre. I feel like if Feyre didn't have to, she was never going to seek out Nesta. She will never have the emotional maturity to look at a situation from someone else's side. The whole idea of Nesta becoming a alcoholic and not feeling anything, isn't a real problem for Feyre. She would rather have sparkly eyes at Rhys, then try to fix or maintain a relationship with Nesta. All I need, at the very least, is a conversation, ( a REAL, DEEP, and emotionally mature conversation). Just for a little more communication between these characters.


WinterRose I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread because I had been wanting to discuss Tamlin upon my re-read.

The fact that the Night Court don't even suspect that THAT is the case with Tamlin just goes to show how completely isolated from Prythian politics the whole Night Court is.

This is what really bothers me and I think it's just plain bad writing. Bias aside, there's no way Rhys wouldn't have suspected this. Even Feyre can't be that blind by her own bias. Regardless of Tamlin's flaws in how he handles relationships, he is not some evil overlord that suddenly wants humans dead.

He's killing two birds with one stone: saving Feyre and gathering information on Hybern--information that no one else had. How could Rhys, who spent years as the enemy's right hand man, not realize Tamlin could be doing the same? Like not even suspect it?

He should have. If he was in character, he would have. But Maas has a tendency to write in a biased way, pushing the readers to think a certain way. And it was a plot device.

Now speaking of Hybern and Tamlin's involvement, why does no one (characters and fans) think about WHY Tamlin is so adamant about saving Feyre? Maybe because Rhys spent years playing the villain who tortures for kicks and rips apart minds and also, not only (to everyone's knowledge) was left unscathed from Amarantha, but aided in the death of Tamlin's family?

Rhys PURPOSELY wanted everyone to think he was a monster. So why is it a surprise that Tamlin does, and acts accordingly?

From Tamlin's perspective, he has a very good reason to worry about Feyre being with Rhys. So IMO it makes perfect sense for him to deal with the king when he also intends to betray him.

Feyre destroying Tamlin's court was also a really stupid move. How am I supposed to cheer about that? It's petty revenge, and the ones who suffer aren't just Tamlin--it's his entire court. Children and families now no longer have a functional army of soldiers to protect them. They have no functional "government." (Maas didn't develop the Spring Court at all, but we can assume there are cities of people there.)

Not only that, but did Feyre really not think they would need the Spring Court to fight Hybern? Really? I didn't cheer at all when she destroyed the court. I wanted to throat punch her.

(To be fair I don't think what Feyre did was so amazeballs that Tamlin's court and soldiers would just up and leave, but that's another author/writing problem.)

The Rhys/Tamlin scenes in ACOFAS was actually one of my favorites, not because I delighted in Rhys kicking Tamlin while he was down, but because I think it's setting Tamlin up for a novella. At least I hope so. He and Feyre haven't had closure and that really needs to happen. They BOTH need to own up to their wrongdoings.


WinterRose I also agree that we have absolutely no idea what happened to him Under the Mountain and the sad thing is, no one cares to find out. To be fair, Tamlin isn't the type of person that opens up. He and Feyre both tend to ignore their trauma and keep their guard up, especially in the beginning ACOMAF. They're very alike in that regard, which is a reason their relationship struggled.

Rhys is able to (over time) help Feyre and put some cracks in her armor so she opens up and faces her trauma. Feyre is not able to do that for Tamlin--no one is. Another reason they were doomed from the start, is Tamlin does not trust easily at all. He doesn't let people in. Even Feyre, whom we can all agree he did love, he keeps at a distance. Feyre's personality was never going to be able to fully open him up.

That's a very interesting theory that it was never Tamlin under the mountain until the end. While I think if that was the case it would have been mentioned by now, I do think we don't know what happened to him and there is more to it than we saw.


message 29: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Feb 02, 2019 01:41AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) WinterRose wrote: "Rhys PURPOSELY wanted everyone to think he was a monster. So why is it a surprise that Tamlin does, and acts accordingly?
From Tamlin's perspective, he has a very good reason to worry about Feyre being with Rhys. So IMO it makes perfect sense for him to deal with the king when he also intends to betray him. "


You! I like you! Why? Because you're a logical minded thinker.
It's really sad to say this, but most people who read ACOTAR series and enjoy it, don't want to see anything outside of Feyra or Rhys' perspectives. Because quite frankly their perspectives don't require much brain power to understand. Through their eyes, the world is cataloged neatly into what THEY think is black and what is white. Maas has made sure to make most readers think of Tamlin as being a bad guy.

Let's correlate Tamlin's situation with a case of a person who caused a car accident. It's really easy to demonize the person who caused the car accident, but if the person is fair and honest, spends time in prison for their mistake, gives compensation to the family of the deceased, is genuinely regretful of their own actions it's hard to actually VIEW him as a demon, from a logical and objective point of view.

This is the same situation with Tamlin. I cannot understand the frantic hate directed towards him. Because objectively speaking, he is not an evil character. He is not. It's more complicated than that, but Tamlin is painted in such degrading terms by every other character surrounding Feyra, further validating her own opinion of Tamlin, that it's not actually a wonder most people hate him. And this is the fault of the author.


WinterRose Thank you! I try to be fair. :) It's funny because back when ACOTAR first came out, I was defending Rhysand constantly because I knew he was clearly endgame and a good guy, but wearing a mask. Tamlin I was always indifferent to.

I completely agree with you as well. Tamlin is raked over the coals by everyone in the book, even the other high lords, as though they forgot who he is. It makes no sense they would trust Rhys quicker than Tamlin at that high lord meeting.

It's simply Maas trying to manipulate the reader. Based on ACOFAS, I do think she's setting him up for his own story. At least I hope so, because she does like to break her characters before bringing them back up. I know we're getting 3 novellas, so my guess is the first is Cassian/Nesta centered, the second is Elain/Azriel/Vassa/Lucien centered, and the third is Tamlin centered with a new love interest, or possibly Briar, that human he helped save in ACOWAR with Azriel and Elain. But we shall see.


Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) WinterRose wrote: "Based on ACOFAS, I do think she's setting him up for his own story."

I'd really like to see a story from his perspective. But not a romance story, fuck that! I want a story concentrating on him building himself up again after Rhys and Feyra destroyed everything concerning him.

With all the things she's done Feyra is not a saint or a pillar of virtue, nor is Rhys. They are both self-centered assholes, that have complete disregard for other people and the consequences of their actions. They destroyed another character's life because of their petty single-minded revenge.

I would even go as far as calling both of them villain protagonists. All they've been doing is be antagonists to everyone around them, from Nesta to Elaine to Lucien to the various Highlords of the other courts.


WinterRose Lol I wouldn't mind a romance story that aids in his growth. I actually hope Lucien ends up back in spring or at least, they end up friends again because I think Maas way overdid it there. They had a good friendship in book 1 and Lucien never hesitated to snap at Tamlin (and Tamlin never reprimanded, even Rhys pointed this out that he should discipline Lucien.)

This is an interesting interaction too:

“Come now, Tamlin,” Rhysand said. “Shouldn’t you reprimand your lackey for speaking to me like that?”

“I don’t enforce rank in my court,” Tamlin said.

“Still?” Rhysand crossed his arms.

Still implies that Tamlin has never operated this way, and yet in books 2 and 3 he suddenly does. Again, it's bad writing meant to demonize him.


message 33: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Feb 05, 2019 10:41PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) WinterRose wrote: "Again, it's bad writing meant to demonize him. "

Sloppy writing has a big part to play in Sarah J. Maas' books. If she had more integrity and more fucks to actually give the stories she wants to tell, she'd put more efforts into making her characters consistent and not treating some characters with so much bias. In my opinion, bias for a character in your own gods damn story ruins the potential for other characters to truly become something.

Tamlin, Lucian, Nesta and Elaine all have development potential and complexities that both Feyra and Rhys lack severely. They are not perfectly white sparkly characters, and that's what makes them complex characters.

Tamlin is willing to become a mole if it means it gets him closer to Hybern, but suddenly Feyra has to fucking poke her nose into his business and fuck that up royally!
Lucian has some really palpable struggles with being accepted into his family and understanding who he is. His identity is a mystery even to himself. Add to that a supposed mate that wants nothing to do with him and a court of assholes that shun him because he used to be Tamlin's friend and you have a character constantly dealing with rejection!
Nesta's strong will and temper often is what makes her inaccessible to other characters and I think it disturbs her greatly that her own sister doesn't even want anything to do with her. We also have Cassian tailing her and acting like he owns her and the court of assholes explicitly mocking her and belittling her... I would be constantly pissed off too, thank you very much.
Elaine doesn't seem as oblivious as she lets on. She is clearly bothered by this mating bond that was clearly thrust on her without her consent and by the constant nudging of Feyra and Mor. I don't know if she's expressed this, but I think she should tell Feyra that her treatment of Nesta is less than familial (I mean fucking hell, I am really bothered by the fact that Elaine was the only one to give Nesta a present for the Winter Solstice! You have no idea).

Four characters with immense developmental potential. I hope we get more story revolving around them. I hope it's handled well.


Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Ida wrote: "My honest feelings right now is are y'all really sure Feyre is not the villain of the story? "

According to Maas' own statements Feyra is a Slytherin and Tamlin is a Gryffindor.
Now Horgwarts houses have nothing to do with one's personality but rather with one's values.

Yes Feyra displays some Gryffindor traits, but overall what does she value the most? Herself. Feyra is an astoundingly selfish character that will do anything to get what she wants. She will demolish an entire governing block if it will satisfy her need for revenge on this one guy who just so happens to be the High Lord of that district. The fact that she facilitated Hybern's advance through Prythian, into the human realms, does not phase her in the least.

Feyra is the type of character that is clearly a villain and yet people for some reason forgive her all her transgressions like she is to blame for nothing that happened because of her (Spring Court collapse, deaths of thousands of Spring Court Residents etc.).


message 35: by WinterRose (last edited Mar 20, 2019 04:13PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

WinterRose Agree--Maas definitely writes with bias. (I always thought she did that with Aelin in ToG as well.) I hate when authors do that. Even if I like a character, I don't want it to seem like the author is biased.

Now I do actually like Feyre, even though I think she can be very hypocritical and quick to judge. She's also narrow minded. IMO it was clear Rhysand wasn't a villain in book 1, yet Feyre was quick to villianize him. Then she's quick to turn the tables and villainize Tamlin in book 2-3. That's irritating. It's like Feyre can't see beyond what's right in front of her. Like how could she not realize Tamlin was playing double agent? And how beneficial that actually was?

I'm still annoyed they couldn't have just had a talk (that they both really need to do) and then work together to bring down Hybern. Feyre still could escape with Lucien, but we could eliminate the petty drama.

I also think she should be held accountable for the destruction of the spring court, and acknowledge how that affects hundreds if not thousands of people. Her revenge against one person hurts an entire court and she really should acknowledge that.

I'll be honest, I don't have much good to say about Nesta, lol. I actually think she's more harmful than Tamlin ever was, but that's another story.


message 36: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Mar 21, 2019 01:09AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) WinterRose wrote: "I also think she should be held accountable for the destruction of the spring court, and acknowledge how that affects hundreds if not thousands of people. Her revenge against one person hurts an entire court and she really should acknowledge that."

There are many things that are simply hand waved in this series. It's as if the characters of the Night Court live in their own little world where consequences are for lesser people.

Tamlin, Nesta, and Lucien are the only only characters to have suffered consequences for their actions. It appears that the more disagreeable the actions are in Feyra's mind the more these characters suffer. Tamlin in particular suffers consequences unbelievably disproportionate to his actions and his intentions.
Let's break down what those were:
Action 1. He forbade Feyra to leave the Spring Court for fear that Amarantha's scattered lackies come and kill here.
Action 2. He told Feyra there is no such thing as High Lady because that is the tradition with High Lords (as we can see a woman of a court rarely has any sort of authority). He is abiding by that tradition to be in line with the other High Lords.
Action 3. He snaps and locks up Feyra in the manor because she is insistent in ignoring his wishes for her, even if they are for her own good and is probably certain that Rhys has worked his way into her mind, turning her against him.
Action 4. As an attempt to help his High Lord allies, Tamlin uses his own personal fallout with Feyra to pose as a desperate lover and fool Hybern into thinking that he is on his side. The act works for Hybern and the unfortunate side-effect is that Feyra ALSO believes it.

If there is something that I've come to understand about Tamlin is the fact that he rarely does things without a reason - yes he may come across as a boring character at first glance, but dig a little deeper and he is actually decently fleshed out as a character. All these actions that LOOK unreasonable to Feyra are all grounded in Tamlin's experience with the Fae world and Feyra herself. Why would he constantly refuse Feyra if she weren't so bloody predictable?

In my analyses of ACOTAR I am trying to decipher the subtext behind the various words and actions of characters like Tamlin, Nesta and the like.
And I've come to this conclusion: The reason why Feyra doesn't realize that Tamlin is a double agent is the fact that Feyra is too dumb to see beyond words and actions. She takes everything at face value. This makes me so mad because I hate reading about idiot characters. Feyra's revenge is grounded in her own idiocy and it's that idiocy that costs thousands of lives and completely destroys Tamlin.

I personally don't have much of an issue with Nesta.. but maybe it's because I don't like Feyra and would much prefer to read about Nesta.


message 37: by Anna (new)

Anna H. Ah. I am so pleased to find some more level heads as regarding this series and the character of Tamlin. I read ACOTAR, loved it because I'm a big fan of old ballads coming to life...read ACOMAF and was 100% horrified at the crappy and completely unbelievable plot reversal. So I basically threw the series away until recently I got curious and picked up ACOWAR. Well, I'm halfway through it and still hating stupid Feyre and her stupid narrow POV, so I went looking for similar minds and have read a lot of excellent points here.

Tamlin's no hero, he's managed some pretty dumb feats of cruelty in the name of 'love,' and as it seems he never had a single legit example of ACTUAL healthy love growing up, I didn't expect him and Feyre to actually last, even at the end of ACOTAR. He needed years of therapy to recover from being that maladjusted, as do most of the characters (really, would the series BE new adult/young adult if folks were healthy and mature? lol).

But I absolutely despise Feyre. All this buildup in book one to her being some kind of strong independent female goddess... HAHAHA ok. The author screwed up: like any predictable boring romance novel, Feyre required a man to put her back together after trauma...she couldn't manage to do it by herself. Rhys had to come sweep her off her feet, bolster up her self esteem, and teach her everything all over again like the basic devilishly handsome billionaire prince that features in a million paperbacks at Walmart. That made me lose all my respect for what Feyre went through in ACOTAR as a defiant, ballsy, "I'll do it my way" woman. Meh. Some fighter if you pee your pants the first time you have to knuckle down and do some relationship-mending. "High Lady" my hiney.

Someone further up in the thread said "He needs a quiet mouse wife who follows his every rule and whim without question." That could not be more wrong. Tamlin actually needed someone much STRONGER than Feyre was -- someone to force through the communication issues, to use her Machiavellian powers to continue to put off the wedding indefinitely while mentally healing, to put her big girl pants on and give fair warning by saying "Hey, I'm changing as a person because of this horrible experience, and if you love me, you will respect that, or I'm leaving." THEN she could have supportively been there as a friend as Tam rebuilt his kingdom, THEN she could have taught him how to be a merciful ruler, how to spot snakes in the grass like Ianthe, how to find trustworthy people and lean on them for advice instead. THEN once he was established she could have let him down firmly but gently and revealed the mating bond with Rhys, and Tamlin would have had a better support net in place to deal with it. Tam was clearly still able to be influenced by her before she disappeared, still gave her a say in things albeit grudgingly (um I'd find it hard not to be a control freak in his position of near-loss too), still proved that he needed and wanted guidance. It would have been an uphill battle to build HIM back up again but what could have been a better statement of true strength than a *woman* rebuilding a *man*, even if only as a friend?

But no. She crapped out, continued to let Tamlin think things were happening via Rhys against her will, and sparked a massive amount of violence and upheaval because she couldn't woman-up for two freaking seconds and actually tell him how things stood. Also of course she couldn't be separated from her maaaannn because everyone knows that two people in lurrrrve can't be parted to do adult tasks like rebuilding kingdoms hundreds of miles apart for any amount of time. Dear god. Rhys and Feyre are immortal; they had all the time in the world to Get It On...what a huge difference in outcome it would have made if she had taken a year to slowly transition from Spring to Night.

I well understand that Maas had to do it that clunky, stilted way to milk an additional who knows how many books dealing with WimpGate's fallout, but it does not make me respect her as an author, and I think it really did a promising feminist storyline a major injustice. Everything 'strong' Feyre did after that rang totally false with me since she ran from her promises, straight-up dumped someone obviously struggling that she claimed to love, without even trying to be honest with him that her feelings were morphing. And hasn't even apologized for any of that so far.

"Feysand" could have happened in a mature, non-skullduggery, non-teen-drama-ridden way, and I'd have been thrilled. Despite Maas practically god-moding Rhys so we all had no choice but to grovel at his feet, I could have taken it in stride had she not made Feyre wimp out at the most critical moment when Tamlin needed help holding his shiz together as his kingdom finally came back to life. It was her inability to regrow a backbone during those few weeks that caused alllllll the ensuing problems. Nice job, you little brat.

The switch between "You can literally flay me alive and I won't break" in the first book to the second book's opening of "I can't talk about my feeeeeelings which I'm feeling too hard every second of the day to see outside myself to more important things that need doing" -- yeah that was like a complete cast change in the middle of a TV series. Such poor writing. Such a crap transition. I will be furious if Maas doesn't get busy pointing out that Feyre is at least partially responsible for letting Tamlin down at a crucial moment when he needed at least a FRIEND.

Like you said...Nesta's way more interesting at this point. Bye Fake-ra.


Samuel AJ wrote: "...she was ready to marry this dude at one point, she loved him, and then their relationship, of course, went down the drain, but how the hell did she leave it behind so open-ended? Psycologically speaking, that is just really unusual. A romantic relationship like theirs is a strong attachment, and it was just snipped."

Come to think about it, I do wonder whether Feyre really did love Tamlin as much as she thought she did. Remember, in order to break the curse, all she had to say was 'I love you too' but she just couldn't find those words in her. Maybe it's because she never felt that way towards him to begin with. Also, given her life before the Spring Court, the hardships and poverty she endured, as well as her sisters' attitude, it's also likely that she became infatuated with Tamlin over the course of time, because life in his care (?) was far better than what she had before.

I don't find the fact that they split up on unpleasant terms that odd. Admittedly Rhys's sudden appearance and the mate bond is a bit on the deus-ex-machina side, but still, Rhys and Feyre becoming a thing seemed like the natural course of action.

And yes, just to concur with everyone here, the way everyone treated Tamlin was a massive d*ck move.


WinterRose ^I agree. I think it goes to show how ultimately Feyre wasn't the right person for Tamlin. He opens up to her some, but not fully. He's so guarded, even more after the events under the mountain. I was re-reading ACOMAF and it kind of made me sad, when Tamlin was begging Feyre to give him time to get over what happened.

It's sad because it's like he knows he needs to move forward, but doesn't know how. And Feyre can't get through to him, either. Rhys is able to be what Feyre needed, to help her--but Feyre isn't able to be that for Tamlin.

Not, of course, that a person needs someone else to help them but shit, when you're at rock bottom sometimes you DO need someone to reach a hand and help you up.


message 40: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Apr 09, 2019 03:09AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Simó wrote: "This being said, I am not trying to justify Tamlin's actions towards Feyre. The way he treated her was wrong."

I would argue that the reverse is also true. How is Feyra's trauma more worthy of help than Tamlin's? Did Feyra actively seek comfort in him or comfort him back, when he was pressure by everyone around him with his High Lord duties immediately after the Under the Mountain ordeal? No. Her self-centered way of thinking in ACOMAF and her complete lack of giving a fuck about anyone but herself makes her very unsympathetic. And that's why, seen from an outside perspective, many of Tamlin's actions make a whole lot of sense.
The woman is a freaking idiot, ffs! How else can he react if she tells him to his face that she doesn't care that he'll put herself, him and everyone arround them in danger if she goes with Tamlin to the front and flashes her powers for all the High Lords to see. She is a coveted vessel of power, but Feyra doesn't care because it's better to do stuff and then maybe - but not really - apologize for them later, instead of taking precautions.

Also, how is Tamlin's treatment of Feyra any different from Rhysand. I've recently reread ACOMAF and I've found and highlighted multiple instances of him ordering her around, making her do things that he wants to. Feyra even outright calls the things Rhys tells her to do "orders", so... I don't see how Tamlin's neglect of Feyra (if you can call it that, the guy had a court to run and had responsibilities Feyra didn't even WANT) any different from Rhysand bossing her around those few weeks before Rhysand takes her away for good from the Spring Court?

Tamlin and Rhysand are two grey characters that are skewed so as to fit the author's own view of them. Sarah J. Maas has molded Rhysand to be the perfect man, that does everything for his woman, his whole life revolves around her, he is always there for her, put her wants and wishes first and whatnot. Tamlin's actions however are painted in a very negative light because he DARES! have a life outside of her.

Do you see my problem here?
Tamlin's way of dealing with his High Lord duties and his trauma are not wrong in and of itself. That makes him a more compelling character, I would argue, because his life does not revolve around his love interest exclusively. In my opinion Rhysand is boring because he becomes a Satellite Love Interest to Feyra in ACOMAF and continues on like this.

To quote TV Tropes here "The test of course, is to ask, "What does this person do when they're not being a love interest?" ...if it's hard to answer, you probably have this."


Tessi I very much feel like this is exactly what Sarah wanted to make us feel. After Tamlin kind of redeemed himself in ACOWAR she wanted to make us feel pity for him in ACOFAS so that people would stop hating on him so much... I'm pretty sure (and I very much hope!!!) Tamlin will get his happy ending after all and it will play along with the Lucien/Elain part.


Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Tessi wrote: "After Tamlin kind of redeemed himself in ACOWAR she wanted to make us feel pity for him in ACOFAS so that people would stop hating on him so much...

The fact that the author NEEDED to do this, says a lot about her way of writing Tamlin.

A good writer does not pull a character twist out of their ass without first planning it, foreshadowing it, making the readers aware of it and lastly incorporating it into the character development of that specific character. Tamlin, plainly speaking had his character development (what little there was) completely butchered for the sake of making Rhysand endgame in ACOMAF.

Would have ACOMAF been better if it was split into two parts? One that focused on the slow and steady development of Tamlin into the abusive asshole everyone thinks he is and the second part Rhysand coming along to help Feyra after Feyra herself tried and failed to come to a consensus with Tamlin. The fact that Rhysand appears to sweep Feyra away, in the first (what?) 10% of the novel is cheap and the author unwittingly tells the reader that Feyra doesn't need to deal with her problems at all, so long as Rhys is there to save her ass out of tight situations.

Now I don't know what she'll do with Tamlin in future installments of the series. But personally I expect better for him and other secondary character than we already got in Feyra's arc (ACOTAR #1 > #3.5).


WinterRose Tbh I think this serious needed to be four books. Even acotar was rushed at the end. We should have spent more time under the mountain.

And we should have seen a more gradual falling apart of Tamlin and Feyre. His character was warped so Feyre would leave faster.


message 44: by Alina (new) - rated it 1 star

Alina Oh my goodness yes, this topic strikes so close to home for me because I have spent the entire time reading ACoMaF and ACoWaR in a permanent rage over the Tamlin character assasination. And this novella... piece of insipid, ridiculous, unecessary fanfic escalated my rage TO THE MOON.

Every time I think I could not be more angry with SJM for how she treats this character, I find that she can still surprise me.

Reading through the comments, I see how many people have articulated all the problems and all the shortcomings in the writing of Tamlin's character much better than I could ever. But see, we are all looking at it from the perspective of objective, mature readers, who are used to choherent narrative and need to see and understand the reasons behind character trajectories. In short, we want intelligent stories.

SJM does not write that. I am sorry to say, but SJM writes all her characters without substance, only black and white and cardboard cuttouts, supremely imature and almost always carricatures of what they should be. I would say her books are for children... if not for all the gore and the cataclismically bad smut. Everyone in these books is selfish, narrow-minded, petty, vindictive, narcisitic, full of delusions of grandeur and most of all, utterly dripping with hypocrisy.

Even without the case of Tamlin (which is a clinical case, give the man a million hugs and a century of therapy), I would have loathed the everloving fuck out of Rhysand and most of his chronies and especially Feyre... who is ever the victim and ever the immaculate snowflake who got treated so poorly and therefore every miserable thing she does is perfectly justified. The Saintly couple never stop to think about anything from anyone's perspective, never once see beyond their own interests, never question themselves and absolutely would never apologise for any of the foul things they do. No one is to question them, only love them unconditionally and good god, I probably hate them more than those sparkly shits from Twilight.

I might have given them some leeway if not for Tamlin. Because how in the world can they go on thinking he deserves to be a husk of a person, alone and practically inviting death? How can anyone agree with this shit??? What the hell did he do that was so bad? Feyre wishes him unending misery (she is a lying sack of shit at the end of ACoWaR when she says he should be happy too), Rhysand gloats over him and shows what a small and petty person he truly is. Everyone seems perfectly fine with the fact that a whole swath of their continent is a ruin and a very powerful wielder of magic is wasting away when he should be helped to rebuild by practically every other fucking court out there.

But nooo, let Tamlin rot because... why? Because the writing is shit and the authoress keps insulting our intelligence. Also, spitting in the faces of everyone who ever raised a hue and cry about how tiresome the Feysand jerkfest has become... and how we want A STORY THAT MAKES SENSE for the money we pay.

Anyway, Tamlin. Even with all his foibles and character flaws, he was never given a chance by anyone (except Lucien, which is why I adore Lucien and I hope he somehow escapes the shackles of being bonded to an Archeron). Tamlin was never sat down by anyone (forcibly, if need be) and made to talk. While no one pointed the finger at him, but only listened. In a better book (or fanfic!) I like to pretend that Rhysand is not merely a walking erection... on contraceptives! OMG, that explains so much about him! I like to pretend that Rhysand is a person and not just an extension of his mate's ego... and so, when he goes to make sure Tamlin is not dead, he stays for more than just cutting steaks. A better person than canon Rhysand would do that. For the the sake of peace, but also because he knows what it's like to be broken and powerless and hopeless. I'm gonna go ahead an pretend that he stayed and if Talmin raged and roared, Rhysand shielded himself and did not move an inch and that for once in existence, he could rise above his own pride and selfishness.

Ah well, wishful thinking. But enough to keep me coming back to this crap, just for glimpses of Tamlin, the true victim of the series.


Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Alina wrote: "I like to pretend that Rhysand is a person and not just an extension of his mate's ego... and so, when he goes to make sure Tamlin is not dead, he stays for more than just cutting steaks. A better person than canon Rhysand would do that. For the the sake of peace, but also because he knows what it's like to be broken and powerless and hopeless.

Maas' writing unfortunately does not lend itself to deep, meaningful and beautiful scenes such as the one you've described. And quite frankly it's better than what Feyra's story arc - written by Maas herself - deserves.

My guess is that book 4 is probably one that will arrive in the next 2 years. I want a story that sidelines the Night Court as a whole and focuses on Tamlin, Lucien, Nesta and Elaine. These are my favorite characters in the series, they have so much potential and I want the author to acknowledge that and do right by them. Especially Tamlin, because holy hell does that guy need a personal journey of self-discovery as a story arc. :|


message 46: by Maria (last edited Aug 07, 2019 08:51AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Maria First of all,I never understood what Tamlin did so bad that he deserves what like one year of depression.Yes,he locked Feyre.But why? Because,he thought Rhys infiltrated and twisted her mind and he might come and take her away.And why did he think that? Because that is what Rhysand literally does.He always puts on his monster mask and saunters around.ONLY the inner circle knows that he is a special snowflake.He is never himself around the rest of the prythian.But still,when people points fingers at him or reacts to him the way his fake monster persona should be reacted to,why the hell does Feyre and the inner circle get offended?

In ACOTAR,Tamlin was not perfect.He did not swag around and despite the act they had to put up to save the whole damned prythian,he tried to prove himself worthy of Feyre's love.He mentioned that he was not good at words,therefore,relied on Lucien on that front.He tried to truly make her comfortable.Despite of the facade,he grew attached to her and even Feyre was infatuated with him.The mistake he made was not telling Feyre about the act and amaranthas reign and her conditions to free prythian.When you look at this mistake from third person point of view,you realize that he had no other option.We all know that 50 years were about to end and the whole prythian rested upon Tamlin's ability to make a human fall in love with him.He should have have said it to Feyre after they got a bit closer,but he did not.WHY?Because he had no other freaking choice.He obviously thought that Feyre will leave him and that can't happen because time was up.That biting part in calanmai was clearly a sign of bad writing and SJM's obsession with animalistic kinks.Anywaay,Feyre actually fell in love with him and agreed to sleep with him.Her feelings for Tamlin might not have been love,but she ULTIMATELY fell in love.Now,Under the mountain,why did Tamlin just sit and watch?Yes.He did.Was that stupid?Yes.But what do you think would have happened if he actually ran down from his chair to hug and kiss her?Amarantha was obsessed with Tamlin,which means that she would have snapped Feyre in two,then and there.He treaded carefully because,again,he had no choice.And can we talk about that part when he grabbed Feyre and made out.I dont know about you all,but that felt very out of place when compared to pre-under the mountain Tamlin.It was as if Sarah suddenly remembered that he is not supposed to be the hero.

Ok,about the scenes post under the mountain,Tamlin was battling his own depression.I repeat,he was battling his own depression.But still,he should have helped Feyre but he not only had his own monsters to face,he had a whole state to run.And Feyre should have actually said him about her problems and feelings in a decent understanding manner instead of just opening her legs for him.I mean,Feyre and Tamlin had zero communicaton and they never worked that out,clearly because they had no chance and like I mentioned,Tamlin had trouble expressing himself.As a person myself who has a terrible tongue tie and stutters,I understood his problem of not easily opening up.Feyre should have understood that if she really love him..I mean,she was expecting him to come and hold her and stroke her hair when she was puking,so,she should have she should have atleast thought about this situation from his point of view.One should not expect something that he/she cannot give.In conclusion,both of them were wrong here.

Now,when Tamlin proposed her,she should have said no.He was not holding a sword at her throat,forcing her to say yes.She could have said no,but she didnt.When Ianthe was dolling her up,she could have said that she did not like it.Even before the day of the wedding,she could have atleast explained her feelings in a decent manner.If he was not being the decent one,she could have been that.There was nothing wrong with that and Tamlin would have respected her more.But no.She was petty.He was indifferent.They had a massive lack of communication between them and they ruined their relationship.Both were at fault but as Feyre was a saint here and Tamlin was a bad guy,this stuck and was never cleared up.

Enter Rhysand.He was everything Tamlin was not.He was smooth good talker,had a nice bunch of loving friends and a perfect sad backstory that was custom made to make people fall for him.He never ruled anything except his perfect Velaris and the rest of the night court was conveniently ignored.He twirled around Feyre,gave her alll the attention and nicely,they fell in love.Firstly,I am pretty sure that Rhys would have never blinked his eyes towards Feyre in her human form if he did not know(however vaguely) that she was his mate.Personally,I felt that I was unconsciously being forced to love him and the night court.He only gave her attention or made a bargain Under the mountain because he ASSUMED that she was his mate.He saw a chance,he took it.and our angel Feyre nicely fell in lovee because he was cookie cutter perfect.Not only Rhysand got his mate,but also he killed two birds with one stone by annoying his ex friend because they had petty grudge going on since centuries.Feyre completely forgot her past,her sisters,her thing with tamlin and Lucien while making moon eyes at Velaris and inner circle.That was too abrupt and unrealistically written.Instead of bringing out and highlighting new characters,SJM took a brush with dark paint and contoured away the first set of characters to make the second set shine.

My point is,Tamlin was an asshole because he had no other choice.OK,He made mistakes.But Feyre was not a pure angel herself.Just for her personal petty revenge for a mistake that both are responsible for,Feyre literally ruined a whole damned state.Imagine if your nation and its economy and everything collapses because of a very immature personal problem between your ruler and his fiancee.And people thinking that Tamlin got what he deseved when both were at fault is stupid.To some extent,till the end of ACOWAR,Tamlin deserved it.But him wasting away for a whole year when he has whole state to run and while Feyre,who is to be blamed too,is enjoying her pristine life,is too much.Now,after reading ACOFAS(wtf was that?pure dissapointment),the only characters left worth reading and exploring are Lucien and Nesta.I hope Tamlin gets a nice quiet redemption and healing without being pulled in another scandal.


message 47: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Aug 08, 2019 07:12AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Maria wrote: "... the only characters left worth reading and exploring are Lucien and Nesta.I hope Tamlin gets a nice quiet redemption and healing without being pulled in another scandal."

In my opinion the best thing to do with Tamlin is to address all these points you, myself and all these other people on this discussion thread have brought up. I would be very disappointed if the next book doesn't at least SLIGHTLY address some of these issues, because they warrant attention from the author.

Tamlin is not a perfect character nor is Feyra, so why is an imperfect character like her seeking perfection when she quite frankly does not deserve it. Tamlin is probably, with a few tweeks here and there, the most human character in this book (meaning that he makes a lot of mistakes and yet he generally has a good reason for them). He fucks up many times over and does wrong by Feyra multiple times, but he's not the only one at fault here.

Feyra is just a shallow, selfish character I cannot get by at all and I am very thankful that her arc has ended and we can go explore other characters that are worth exploring, and not the Inner Circle who, truth be told, are bunch of assholes.


message 48: by Murielle (last edited Aug 10, 2019 09:48AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Murielle I definitely agree.

Tamlin has done really bad things but again, so has Feyre and so has Rhysand and so have all the characters in the series.
I really hate the way Tamlin is hated on. At this point, the fandom mostly hates him for no reason.

At least for me, Tamlin has redeemed himself when he helped Feyre in ACOWAR on multiple occasions.
Like what more is he supposed to do? He even helped resurrecting Rhys and how can this phrase go unnoticed. "Be happy, Feyre."

I really hate the way Rhys treated him in ACOFAS and I really think he deserved better.
He was an asshole, yes, but not to that extent.


N.M I had to think a long while on this before posting, but I feel like it needs to be said. SPOILER ALERTS going up to A Court of Frost and Starlight, you were warned.

I think the relationship with Tamlin is more a commentary on gender roles, the responsibility of the upper class in alleviating economic disparity and the nature of abuse, and even love than an assassination of the character.

There's no getting around the fact that Tamlin exhibited many of the hallmarks of abusive behavior. There is no denying the fact that the collapse of his court was his own failing, he could have stopped it a few times but didn't. Had he sided with his sentry we might have had a very different story. As for blaming Feyre for choosing to leave and work on her own healing, https://bit.ly/2DFSQx2 I feel like this article says everything I feel on the subject. No one should have to put up with abuse, regardless of how well-intentioned it might be. People have the right to pursue happiness.

That said? Feyre crashing the court, and Rhys kicking Tamlin when he was down - no that didn't sit well with me. And Feyre had to arrive at her own conclusions and feelings regarding the marriage. But I also think that there are a lot of little things that still have to happen before any kind of forgiveness can be found on either side. Tamlin is perhaps the most flawed but I think that he isn't beyond redemption, and he has learned from the experiences or at least it would appear that he has. It just takes more time than one Novella could cover. I do hope that Maas chooses to write that story in the future.


message 50: by Rose (new)

Rose Thank you!!!!!!!!!!

When I was reading the second book I literally couldn’t because of all this.

SO GLAD OTHERS FEEL THE SAME WAY.

I had to give up on the series because I just couldn’t. I might come back some day but who knows because every time I get to an interaction between Feyre and Tamlin I literally want to start crying and take Tamlin away to recover from everything. And I really didn’t appreciate that Rhysand was deemed amazing as soon as a reader can start seeing the bond. Phenomenal writing, kept me hooked, but I can’t handle this poor character development. It hurts too much unfortunately.


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