Series: Machineries of Empire by Yoon Ha Lee ("Ninefox Gambit")

[Silvana]

The explanation about voidmoth in chapter 5 made me reconsider my decision last year to classify the trilogy as fantasy. Now it seems more SF to me.

[Anna]

Ariana wrote: "I'm not seeing an audio version of Revenant Gun available. Am I just looking in the wrong places?"

It's now on Audible.

[Anna]

Silvana wrote: "The explanation about voidmoth in chapter 5 made me reconsider my decision last year to classify the trilogy as fantasy. Now it seems more SF to me."

I still have it on my scifi shelf, but since the author has publicly said that the whole calendrical thing is magic, I think it's safe to consider it space fantasy?


RG, chapter 11.

(view spoiler)[ A Labyrinth of Foxes! :D I can't get enough of the humor, this isn't even the best example. Sadly the second half of the chapter was extra dark in contrast. (hide spoiler)]

[Silvana]

Just to be safe, I'll put it in both shelves :))

Still at chapter 7. What would I give to be inside a Nirai moth. 😲

[Anna]

I would freak out if I found myself on a moth! They creep me out a bit. We do find a lot more about them in RG, though, and that's super interesting.

[Anna]

I just finished chapter 18. I'm hesitant to continue, because I feel like it's starting to approach the conclusion. Yes it's just a tiny bit over 50%, but that means less than 200 pages left. I'd wanted to finish today, but I think I'm okay with taking at least one more day.

I'm weirdly nervous about this, which I hadn't expected. It took me ages yesterday to fall asleep, I had to break out the big guns (Catwings narrated by Ursula herself) to finally settle down. It's been a long time since I've read a series at the rate it's published, and thus had to wait for the finale for a long time.

I'm going to take a scallion pancake break now. Meaning I'll go make some!

[Jordan]

I'm partway through chapter nine right now. I'm definitely interested in some of the information that we're getting about moths. It seems like we're seeing a whole lot more of the universe and how it functions in this book, which is great!

[Anna]

RG, chapter 22.

(view spoiler)[ I'm a bit disappointed with how the moth thing went. I was expecting there to be something more, because why else leave it unsaid for so long? The first hints (othersense, hearing the moth) came so early, and then the immortality fairly soon after, it would have felt more organic to have the "reveal" sooner. It just feels so un-Ninefox to hint so glaringly at something, only to have it be exactly that. Not a major complaint, it just felt like something out of any random book. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I stayed up very late last night and finished the book. There was a point of no turning back, I felt like I had to read it in one sitting. So spoilers for all of Revenant Gun.

(view spoiler)[ I'm still trying to sort out my feelings. For now I've rated it 4 stars. I liked it, but I didn't love the second half.

First of all, where was Mikodez?! He's such a great character, I needed to see him at least a little bit every now and then. I understand that not everyone could have POV chapters all the time, and Mikodez got his turn in Raven, but I missed him so much! I would have traded everything with Dhanneth for some Mikodez action.

On the plus side there was more Kujen, but I had problems with his background. Why couldn't he just be evil without the very stereotypical "I was an innocent child and a bad man turned me into a monster" trope?

As I said about chapter 22, the foreshadowing was so un-Lee. Those of us who've made it to the final installment surely appreciate having to work things out without everything being handed to us? I mean my first question about chapter 1 was about Jedao's body, it seemed obvious there was something meaningful about it, and from then on it became so obvious. Too obvious, and I thought that meant it was something else entirely, but it wasn't.

The moths were interesting, and since Jedao had a connection with them, I would have liked to know even more about them. I do like that Revenant didn't give any fox about screwing Jedao over in the end.

But, for the love of little foxes, the humor is still on point, and I loved Hemiola as a new character. I would totally watch its fanfic videos of Kujen dancing!

Oh, I said earlier that I wanted to know more about the relationship between Jedao and Kujen. Then there was a chapter about it, and I realized I didn't want it after all.

I can't sort out my thoughts better than this, but I know I'll reread it eventually, and maybe I'll come to terms with some of my problems. It happened with Raven, which I thought was too "normal" after my first read, but I simply loved it when I reread it. (hide spoiler)]

[Silvana]

Anna wrote: "RG, chapter 22.

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[Oh no, that sucks. I am glad I was taken by surprise by it. At first I thought his mothsense was just some nifty 'feature' Kujen added when he made him.

Wonder if Kujen knew about Jedao's mothsense. (hide spoiler)]

Again, on Kujen himself, (view spoiler)[I am glad we got more revelations about him but it is still unclear to me why he wanted to be immortal so bad. Is there any other motive? Or he's simply an evil genius who wanted to live forever? (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

re:Kujen and chapter 22

(view spoiler)[ Silvana wrote: "Is there any other motive? Or he's simply an evil genius who wanted to live forever?"

That's what it seems like to me. I said it in my final thoughts, but I was a tad disappointed in Kujen's backstory.

And the mothsense, I don't think he knew, because surely he'd have tried to control it? (hide spoiler)]

[Jordan]

On chapter twelve. I didn't get to read much yesterday thanks to migraines. :(

[Silvana]

Anna wrote: "re:Kujen and chapter 22

..."

Apparently we get more explanation from chapter 23
(view spoiler)[some sort of revenge.

I wonder what it was like during the heptharcate. Was it already opressive and Kujen made ir worse. (hide spoiler)]

Jordan wrote: "On chapter twelve. I didn't get to read much yesterday thanks to migraines. :("

Get well soon, Jordan.

[Silvana]

Finished and I echo your feelings, Anna.

(view spoiler)[I also miss the current Jedao, the one inside Cheris. The new Jedao was too sentimental for me, and since he did not have all the life experience who made Jedao Jedao his character became less impressive than the 400 year old version. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Silvana, yes!

(view spoiler)[ I've been trying to sort out how I feel about the two Jedaos in the end. I understand that we can't have him as he was before, but the young/moth Jedao was such a sliver of the real thing, it just doesn't feel like Jedao. I also wish we could've seen the two of them with some more meaningful interaction.

I'm telling myself it doesn't matter, and that it's magic, but I still keep wondering how it's possible that Cheris got such a functioning Jedao, and yet the other one still knows who he is, despite only having a tiny bit of the memories. (hide spoiler)]

[Jordan]

Just finished chapter 14:

(view spoiler)[ Poor Jedao. It's not enough that he's hopelessly confused about who he is, now he's been shot full of holes too. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I love my library. I asked if they were gonna carry Revenant Gun, and they looked, saw it wasn't on their lists and ordered it for me!

[Anna]

I didn't even realize I was doing a reread of RG until I was a good chunk into it. I'd only meant to reread parts to clarify some things, but here we are. I still have a few chapters left, but the glaringly obvious thing I completely missed the first time is almost embarrassing.

(view spoiler)[ So I complained about how Jedao's moth body was super obvious and there was basically a neon sign over his head. At the same time I managed to completely miss all the VERY obvious clues about Dhanneth. Yes I was wondering what was up with him, and yes I was wondering what happened to the previous commander, but I never put those two things together until a few pages before it was revealed. On rereading, it was so fricking obvious, I can't believe I missed it!

In my defense, I thought the whole Dhanneth storyline was unnecessary, and even on rereading I don't feel like it's adding much.

I still have some unanswered questions. It's possible I'll get it if I reread the whole trilogy at some point, but I'm definitely not going to do that right now. (hide spoiler)]

[Silvana]

Anna, I feel the same about Dhanneth.

(view spoiler)[I am not a fan of the mushy stuff between him and Jedao either. Maybe he was there to serve as Jedao's anchor/motivation for salvation or something? But that's pretty corny/tropey, right?

What is interesting for me about Dhanneth was the Kel's reaction towards his condition so I'd consider him being there is worldbuilding purposes, i.e. for us to know more about the Kel's psyche and how they perceive their commanders. Other than that, yeah he's pretty useless. (hide spoiler)]

[Silvana]

Jordan wrote: "Just finished chapter 14:

[spoilers removed]"

I wonder how (view spoiler)[all those bullets got removed. if at all. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

re: Dhanneth

(view spoiler)[ I was trying to find a reason for him, and maybe the whole "rape" thing was so we could see that this Jedao isn't a pure white dove. But there were other ways to show that, and the sex scene made me very uncomfortable both times. Well especially when rereading, because of what is revealed later.

And the Kel thing, it's kind of similar to what happened at the start of Raven, and it didn't really play a part in the end, so it didn't work for that purpose either. I vote that Lee rewrites this book without Dhanneth! :D (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

In ur threads, messin with ur flow.

Stratagem, Ch 2
(view spoiler)[ I've only just started but I wanted to say how pleased I am to be back. I liked the quick rundown of what is going on, because it's been a minute since I read NG. I'm also super impressed/scared by the Vidona Deathtouch!! Oh man! And then she just straight up origami-ed him!! What! Really enjoying seeing snapshots of how the cultures work and what the other factions are like. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Yay, you're reading Raven! I did post some (mostly fangirly) comments earlier in the thread.

When I first read Raven, I'd forgotten one tiny crucial bit about Ninefox, and it exploded in my face, that's why I decided to reread both before starting RG. And now I feel like I need to reread the whole trilogy several times, because I have one small detail I can't figure out.

[Jordan]

Allison wrote: "In ur threads, messin with ur flow.

Stratagem, Ch 2
[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ Yeah, the whole bit with the origami definitely made me do a double take when I read that. It wasn't enough to just kill him with a touch, I guess. The Vidona are definitely a bit terrifying. (hide spoiler)]

[Silvana]

The series is a good reread series.
I just reread Extracurricular Activities yesterday and still feel like I have so much to learn from the world.

Also, there is something in there that may or may not be related to (view spoiler)[the revenant gun especially the (view spoiler)[lubricant stuff (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

OK here's my end of trilogy question about Kujen.

(view spoiler)[ Why did Kujen not use the moth body he'd made for himself? Why did he rely on the form of immortality that was so dependent on the high calendar? The only reason I can think of is that he was still experimenting with it, and didn't want to jump into a moth body before he'd perfected it. I tried to pay attention to this as I reread, but I'm still not sure I understand. Did I miss something, or is there no perfectly logical reason? Seeing as he was so careful and worried about formations and weapons that could kill him, you'd think he'd use the truly immortal option. (hide spoiler)]

[Jordan]

I promise I'm still reading this!

I'm on chapter 22 right now. I meant to finish it this weekend and ended up reading pretty much nothing instead. Too much other stuff going on.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I need help, please! RS page 59 (view spoiler)[ why is jedao not set up for composite work? he's in cheris' body. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Allison, I think it just means (view spoiler)[ that back when Jedao was alive, formation instinct and composites weren't yet a thing, so he lacks the necessary brainwashing? Also, despite being seconded to the Kel, Jedao is Shuos, and composites are a Kel thing. But I could be wrong. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Hmm...so Lee is saying that (view spoiler)[Jedao's whole being has taken over Cheris? He keeps calling her dead, so I guess that makes sense. (hide spoiler)] (As of Ch 22)

Ch 22 RS
(view spoiler)[ I'm still really liking it but some of the new info is making me review old info and I'm not sure I can mesh them. Curious about the last 25% and how all the motivations and political aspirations will pan out. Also, Jedao in the Black Cradle asking for someone to talk to 3 (hide spoiler)]

[Jordan]

Okay, finished Revenant Gun!

(view spoiler)[ Wow. That was good. I see there's been a lot of discussion about Dannath. I thought it seemed like he was there as a reminder for Jedao about the dangers of power and becoming like Kujen where people were there to be manipulated for his own use. It's his moment of just kind of accepting that he has power and control and the ability to have things the way he wants them and rejecting it. Instead of accepting this cruel illusion world that Kujen is offering him, he rejects it and sees the evil in what he's done and chooses to face reality even if it isn't perfect and under his control. Without Dannath, Jedao really faces no temptation. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Allison wrote: "(view spoiler)[some of the new info is making me review old info and I'm not sure I can mesh them (hide spoiler)]"

(view spoiler)[ It will get easier! (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ch 25 RS

(view spoiler)[ OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I almost decided just not to sleep last night so I could learn about what Cheris is doing!!! AH!!! (hide spoiler)]

[Silvana]

I liked your take on Dannath, Jordan. I will reread later with that in mind. Now we wait for Lee's next novel.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I just got a notification that I'm next in line for Revenant Gun!! Should have it in a day or two :D

[Silvana]

Looking forward to know your thoughts after you finish then :)

[Ariana]

Raven Stratagem, Ch. 2.

(view spoiler)[

... she should have known that even a four-hundred-year-old Shuos who had spent his adult life in Kel service would display the Shuos obsession with competence.

So I would clearly make THE WORST Shuos (abysmal liar), but I totally have an obsession with competence! I think this is why I get so annoyed at main characters that are bumbling idiots. (Maybe I should cut you some slack, Alif the Unseen, we can't all be master manipulators/tacticians/assassins.)
(hide spoiler)]

Speaking of, has everyone taken the quiz to find out what faction they belong in?
http://www.solarisbooks.com/post/2065

A few of the questions have some references I'm not super familiar with and had to look up.

[Ariana]

oops, just saw the old link to the quiz.

[Anna]

There can never be too many mentions of the quiz, or too much Ninefox/Raven/Revenant talk in general! Which faction did you get? Are you happy with the result?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

LOL, Ariana! I like to know how people come to their conclusion. (view spoiler)[ Like, Alif was a moody bastard, but I saw why each decision he made happened. Some of the "hyper competent" folks in stories I can't follow their logic. It's just either so much more sophisticated than I am, or we had some sort of quantum leap that I think someone ought to try to measure...

All that said, I love YHL's sort of competence :D (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Anna wrote: "There can never be too many mentions of the quiz, or too much Ninefox/Raven/Revenant talk in general! Which faction did you get? Are you happy with the result?"

Nirai! Which is actually rather apt. Although I think the first time I took it I got Liozh. What about you?

[Anna]

I'm not 100% sure if I remember correctly, and I'm too lazy to check the original Ninefox thread, but I think it went something like:

Liozh (after first read)
Shuos (after first reread)
Nirai (straight after because wtf)
Shuos (after second reread)

So we decided that I'm a devious fox assassin, and that's when Allison asked me to co-mod with her!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Can confirm. So everyone be good or I'll let the space ghost out of the coffin

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Also this test is wrong and I want a new one.

Does that mean I'm automatically nirai?

[Jordan]

Apparently I'm a Kel.

[Rachel]

I don’t remember what I got last time - Nirai maybe? But this time it was Shuos....

[Ariana]

Jordan wrote: "Apparently I'm a Kel."

"How many Kel does it take to change a candlevine? The whole company. There are no survivors."

From http://veliseraptor.tumblr.com/post/170431974931/hexarchate-lightbulb-jokes

[Anna]

Trying to resist opening that link, I need to dash out of the house five minutes ago.

[Jordan]

Ariana wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Apparently I'm a Kel."

"How many Kel does it take to change a candlevine? The whole company. There are no survivors."

From http://veliseraptor.tumblr.com/post/1......"

Yes, all the Kel jokes!

[Ariana]

RS, Ch. 12
(view spoiler)[

You couldn't pull the hexarchate apart and change it for something better. The fact that heretics always lost was proof of that. So you had to do the next best thing, the only thing left: serve, and hope that serving honorably made some small difference.

So this is a little on the nose, but I still kind of like the difference in philosophy between Jedao (Hexarchate = bad, so BURN IT DOWN) and Brezan. But it brings up a plot point for me, which is actually from the end of NG:

So Jedao got himself put in the black cradle in purpose so that he could become immortal and play the long game re: taking down the Hexarchate. But to do this he had to kill all the people at Hellspin Fortress. This doesn't seem particularly internally consistent if he's pissed at the Hexarchate for being cavalier with people's lives, right? Is it just "I'll kill these 1 million+ people now so I can stop the Hexarchate later, and it'll be a net gain?" This just doesn't feel true to the other stuff we so about Jedao caring about his soldiers, vs. Kujen or even Mikodez who seem more amoral and dispassionate when it comes to executing their political moves. Am I missing something?
(hide spoiler)]