June 2018 Buddy Read of The Frost and the Flame

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Sorry guys,

I have fallen behind. I’m playing team bingo with another group and have fallen behind there.

Re up to page 79

The prince keeps urging Katia to (view spoiler)[ take “the potion,” probably laudanum or some other opiate. Is Oleg deliberately trying to make an addict? (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Lukewarm attempt if so. Maybe just wants her to get better.

[Mel]

Can you see my spoiler, it seems to have disappeared my end?

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Melita,

I have to go back and read the comments.

It’s a few minutes to 6am in my neck o the woods. I’m going to try to get some reading in as I have the morning off from work.

[Mel]

Fantastic, always great to have time off. It is nearly 8PM here. Very wet and cold (not as cold as it would get there I imagine).

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Melita wrote: "Fantastic, always great to have time off. It is nearly 8PM here. Very wet and cold (not as cold as it would get there I imagine)."

It’s winter in the Southern Hemisphere, right?

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Doris wrote: "Melita-I don’t think your spoilers are working.

I got bogged down at the point where Oleg is going to assault/rape Karita. I’ll get back to reading again. This isn’t a page turner for me. I find ..."

Doris,

This is the type of info that should possibly be in a spoiler. I haven’t reached the point where you are in the book. You are ahead of me.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Insta-lust galore:

P 88

(view spoiler)[First Katia is sure she loves Alexei because of his courtly bow, now Alexei might be in love with her. I can see his admiration for her forthright ness and her courage to stand up to Oleg when he would have had the old fortune-teller killed. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Sorry, these spoilers do not work for me.

In answer to above, seems like infatuation to me. Too little time spent together.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Melita wrote: "Sorry, these spoilers do not work for me.

In answer to above, seems like infatuation to me. Too little time spent together."

I saw your “test” spoiler and it worked.

You did the tags correctly.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Melita wrote: "Sorry, these spoilers do not work for me.

In answer to above, seems like infatuation to me. Too little time spent together."

Alexei is a grown man and should know better...

[Mel]

Winter here , by the way. I think I will snuggle up now and keep reading.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Melita wrote: "Winter here , by the way. I think I will snuggle up now and keep reading."

Lucky you!

I really hate summers where I live. It’s still spring, so it hasn’t been too bad.

Summers are very humid here. I hate it.

Have a good snuggly read!

I’m reading in bed while listening to satellite radio tuned to a 70s pop station.

Ahhh

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Respond to Blondie p 122/Mess #56

Blondie,

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by (view spoiler)[aunt’s lack of concern. Do you mean a lack fear/danger to Katia of/from Elizabeth, Oleg wife? Or lack of concern of danger from Oleg himself? (hide spoiler)]

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Blondie wrote: "pg 131

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[I think auntie is having symptoms of an impending heart attack. Once I realized this, I think she’ll die before tells no Katia anything.

Aunt has been buried in the boondocks for years, now she’s giddy with “town” pleasures. She’s loving the luxury of the prince’s house. A very poor chaperone for Katia. (hide spoiler)]

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Blondie wrote: "pg 143

[spoilers removed]"

What is Princess Elizabeth’s game? I’m fascinated by her. However, I fear her demands will only make (view spoiler)[Oleg determined to kill Alexei. (hide spoiler)] I think Oleg crazy and hate-filled enough that (view spoiler)[that he’ll still try to kill his cousin if he can do it without causing problems to himself. (hide spoiler)]

I just had a thought, (view spoiler)[maybe Elizabeth wants to “help” Alex by getting rid of Oleg so that Alex cand take over Os property. Alex is rich, but has no land. Alex is an aristo by lineage, but land is the status of aristocracy. Alex is wealthy via commerce. This is not arostocratic. (hide spoiler)]

Whether true or no, Elizabeth is an interesting twist.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

P 142-3

It looks as if Oleg could have had a really happy (view spoiler)[ marriage with Elizabeth. She brought him her wealth, they were sexually compatible, and she’s intelligent. (hide spoiler)] He threw it all away. They could have been a good (view spoiler)[team. (hide spoiler)] I don’t think either of them are (view spoiler)[ nice people butthey could have had marital happinesses (hide spoiler)]

Elizabeth is sympathetic to me.

[Mel]

Yes, I agree. I feel the same way about her.

[Mel]

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

I thought that these passages were interesting juxtapositions:

1) Katia
Prologue/Page 1-3
Still later in the afternoon, in another part of the woods, she saw a boy and girl walking hand in hand and followed after them secretly. The boy had hair the colour of autumn, a rusty red; and the girl was pretty, graceful and young. She seemed happy; and the convent girl—who had known only woman and girls all her life—was strangely envious. She made a hiding place in some prickly bushes and watched as the boy spread a rug on the grass and urged his girl to sit beside him. But she was kittenish. Clearly, through the brambled bushes, the convent girl could see the look of impy mischief on her pretty face as she ran in and out of between the beech and oak and maple trees. When they were exhausted, they laughed and fell back on the rug together.
…their laughter filled the lonely woods and ended in a long and lingering kiss. Blah Blah Blah
Snip
She told herself she had to look away. The nuns had taught her that to be purposely in the presence of sin was in itself a sin. But her sense of right and wrong was affronted by this religious maxim. Surely the boy and girl were not sinning! They seemed to love one another tenderly, joyously. How she wondered, could this be sin?


Book II/Ch 16/Page 168
Elizabeth
(view spoiler)[
She was recalling the first of Oleg’s conquests. He didn’t know it, of course, but she had seen him with that Finnish servant on the sand of a deserted cove near their summer house at the shore. Elizabeth had been scarcely nineteen then; but the girl with Oleg was younger still, perhaps no more than fourteen. She had watched, knowing that the girl was frightened and that Oleg—with his powerful hands and unstoppable will—took obvious delight in her terror. Elizabeth crouched behind a boulder, her eyes riveted to the scene. She had bitten her lip to keep from screaming at the pain their passion aroused in her. She had thought Oleg would desire her and for always, and when she knew that this was not to be, she believed her heart would break.
(hide spoiler)]

[Blondie]

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Respond to Blondie p 122/Mess #56

Blondie,

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[I meant lack of concern that Oleg would be a threat to Katia because he is already married naive though it may be (view spoiler)[ I am farther along now and can see I was wrong about that though (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Blondie]

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I thought that these passages were interesting juxtapositions:

1) Katia
Prologue/Page 1-3
Still later in the afternoon, in another part of the woods, she saw a boy and girl walking hand in hand an..."

I did not catch that but I see what you mean very interesting

[Blondie]

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Blondie wrote: "pg 143

[spoilers removed]"

What is Princess Elizabeth’s game? I’m fascinated by her. However, I fear her demands will only make [spoilers removed] I think Oleg crazy and hate-fill..."

I am very interested in both Elizabeth and black Jakes stories

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Same here Blondie,

Elizabeth is verrra verrra interesting.

Jake is interesting to.

I keep forgetting to look up the name of his island to see what we’re calling it these days. The name the author is using, I’m unfamiliar with it.

[Blondie]

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Same here Blondie,

Elizabeth is verrra verrra interesting.

Jake is interesting to.

I keep forgetting to look up the name of his island to see what we’re calling it these days. The name the autho..."

Tasmania :)

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Thanks Blondie,

I had a feeling that Jake’s homeland was Tasmania.

I think the British killed all of the indigenous people. I think I read that unlike the Aussie Aborigines and the NZ Maori, the people indigenous to to Tasmania no longer exist.

Three cheers for the proliferation western “civilization!”

[Blondie]

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Thanks Blondie,

I had a feeling that Jake’s homeland was Tasmania.

I think the British killed all of the indigenous people. I think I read that unlike the Aussie Aborigines and the NZ Maori, the ..."

I looked it up but I need to go back and read more about it when I have time

[Mel]

It used to be penal colony and called Van Dieman's I think, now called Tasmania. I am surprised that he did not trade in Sydney, even now Tas is not a major trading centre by any means.

[Gurl]

Hi Buddy Readers...I kind of dropped out but will keep reading to the end.. eventually. Melita I got Trade Winds as I saw it was one of your favs and started that should be good ; )

[Hot Mess Sommelière ~ Caro]

so, I'm finally doing some catching up!

p 157

wow I didn't think (view spoiler)[ Oleg would actually get to rape Katia. I thought his badly planned shenanigans would run into sand (hide spoiler)]

at the same time I'm disappointed (view spoiler)[ that Katia is such a cookie cuttered goodie two shoes and keeps monologuing about Alexei while they literally don't know each other. And meanwhile Alexei is running around heaping flashbacks into his narrative that don't add anything to the story anyway unless it's to make him appear like more of a white knight. (hide spoiler)]

Aunt Nikki (view spoiler)[ is clearly way too oblivious to be trusted to take care of herself and much less others and I'm not sure what kind of idiot allowed her to be in the know on an important secret. she would be the last person I would entrust a secret to smh (hide spoiler)]

the only interesting character (view spoiler)[ is of course Elizabeth who I hope will have a chance to stand in the sun while her persona is still important to the storyline that seems to be going nowhere (hide spoiler)]

The Czar (view spoiler)[ is so anachronistic and non linear in his thoights I suggest him as a great grrom for aunt Nikki. or maybe He is Katia's father together with Oleg's mother, making Alexei her cousin. would make sense because who else would be idiotic enough to think Aunt Nikki would keep a secret and act according to somebody else's wishes and/or best interests? the czar seemed crazy enough with his foolish dilly dallying between pompously wanting Alexei in St Petersburg (to be executed? brought to trial? whatnot?) only to later drag Oleg around and call Alexei DA MAN for the job ... huh (hide spoiler)]

[Hot Mess Sommelière ~ Caro]

also p 157

also idk but Alexei's (view spoiler)[ characterization seems somewhat disjointed and inconsistent. it's like from page 50 we have an author who no.longer values economic writing but rather monologues upon flashbacks upon more monologues, and instead of giving Alexei any kind of depth he is consistently shown as a dubiously 20th century modern man with poilitcal views which dont seem to interfere with his radical humanism (wonder where he got that bcuz 19th century eaton must have been a cesspool of colonial apologetism, true? anyway I dont know how I can justify his libertarian ideas, they seem to make no sense in his political context and also form a contrast to his childish antipathy for his cousin Oleg, who of course is a jerk but why bother with him if alexei is so damn liberal? strange. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

I found it irksome that author mentions a few too many times that Katia is 18 years old. So what? At the time, it would have held no meaning.

[Mel]

I find Oleg is too one dimensional a vilian, he is almost twirling his moustache. Katia seems better drawn.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Ch 23/ The Ball

I would think that Alexei knows how (view spoiler)[evil and depraved his cousin is, what he’s capable of. <\spoiler>Yet Alexei warns K not to trust Oleg as if he Alexei believes that Oleg won’t force her and that K likes O or mistakenly trusts O.<\spoilers>

This shows that Alexei truly doesn’t (view spoiler)[know Katia, or is in sensible to her plight. Alexei is naive about how dangerous his cousin is?<\spoiler>

Further, if Alexei “knows” his cousin—what O is capable of (view spoiler)[A seems insensible of the danger he’s put Katia by risking being seen tête-à-tête with Katia to risk O being angry with her. (hide spoiler)] now A wants her to (view spoiler)[risk sneaking off with him! (hide spoiler)]

Also, why would Katia risk (view spoiler)[ Mary’s safety by agreeing to an hour-long trist with A, and making O angry enough to hirt Mary. (hide spoiler)]

Am I being to analytical? All of this seems illogical to me. This has been jarring. Oleg is a lose cannon. He’ll do anything. (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Melita wrote: "I find Oleg is too one dimensional a vilian, he is almost twirling his moustache. Katia seems better drawn."

I guess the author doesn’t want to give him any backstory to to make him a “complex” villain or give any sympathetic element to his background. The author has made him an unmitigated villain.

There is something about him that could be cause for sympathy, at least for me: (view spoiler)[he had an opportunity with his wife, but he’s so horrible and it redeemable that he threw away a chance at a happy marriage with her. (hide spoiler)]

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Mess #132/Caro/p 157

1) I was not surprised that O (view spoiler)[ raped Katia. <\spoiler>That one of the hallmarks of bodice ripper and why most people don’t care for them. The only thing that surprised me was that he didn’t He’s such a brute. He strikes me as the sort who would pull wings off of bugs and baby birds as a child.

2) Early in the book I didn’t see her as s (view spoiler)[ goody two shoes. (view spoiler)[ She seemed petulant and childishly rebellious and not open to advice at all. (hide spoiler)] At one point Aunt N shared with K some questionable gossip about (view spoiler)[ gossip is gossip, but Katia is dopey. She doesn’t follow any (view spoiler)[advice about behavior and how to go on. (hide spoiler)] She childishly follows her own inclinations in everything. Later on, she actually goes against N advice and tries to ask Alexei about what N told her. He realizes how childish she is to give credence to servants gossip— (hide spoiler)]the lowest form of gossip in their world.

However, I think it’s typical in HR in an effort to make an heroine relatable to modern audiences to make her rebellious against the mores of the time period in some fashion.

Also, I think we get flashbacks about Alexei to flesh him out and also to show us why his political beliefs are counter to those held by his sociopath-economic class. Also these flashbacks give us info about the origin of Jake.

3) Aunt N is a bird-brain and shouldn’t be trusted as a chaperone in even the best of circumstances.

4) Elizabeth is very interesting. If she had more pages devoted to her, she’d put the heroine in the shade. I think it’s an accident that she’s so attractive or interesting as a character to me as a reader.

5) I think in one of my posts in this b-r I posted a wiki link to Nicholas I’s wiki page. I don’t read every detail, but to get the gist of him but glancing at it, explains helps explain some things that are a part of the backdrop of the story.

I enjoyed your comments! You’re a natural at communal reading. (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Hot Mess Sommelière ~ Caro]

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Mess #132/Caro/p 157

1) I was not surprised that O raped Katia. That one of the hallmarks of bodice ripper and why most people don’t care for them. The only thing that surprised me was that he di..."

You may be right about some of those points.

I have no problem with Oleg (view spoiler)[raping Katia (hide spoiler)] as such. It's just that I didn't think he'd (view spoiler)[succeed because he's such a buffoonish clown with no depth or intelligence whatsoever. Also, it was the blandest rape I've ever read. As for impact, it might not have happened were it not for Katia's bemoaning monologues (hide spoiler)]

Elizabeth appears vastly more intelligent than him and I'm really surprised (view spoiler)[a woman like her would put up with his shenanigans. (hide spoiler)]

I totally get what you mean about Alexei's (view spoiler)[background being explained and stuff. From a literary standpoint though, I think flashbacks like these are bad form. I don't like to read flashbacks, and these were particularily heavy on the info dump side. (hide spoiler)] But I'm super critical, others won't feel like that I'm sure.

But I can't help feeling let down. Pretty sure had the book been about (view spoiler)[ Elizabeth (hide spoiler)] instead, it would have been 5 stars from me.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

@ Caro/ mess # 139

Yeah, the author unintentionally upstaged Katia with Elizabeth. Times such as they were, Elizabeth didn't have a choice but to put up with her husband. There was nothing that she could do. But maybe,...I still have about 60 pages to finish.

I wish that I had writing talent. I write a FF using this story, but letting Elizabeth be the heroine, trapped in a horrible marriage, then rescued by the hero to ride off into the sunset after kicking dirt on Oleg's grave. I don't know if he'll really die or not but I wish he'd be arrested by the Tsar and tortured. Tsar Nicholas I was a nasty piece of work.

Caro, I think that you have a higher sensitivity for writing than I do. I have said many times while chatting on GR that "if I notice writing is poor,... It's REALLY bad. If I notice that writing is good, ITS REALLY great writing. If the writing is competent or fair to middlin' it doesn't call attention to itself. I don't consider myself good at written communication, though lately I've been blasting messages far and wide on GR (really screaming from the mountain top!) that I am chatty on GR. The people on my flist, when they saw these messages, they were probably thinking "No Sh!t, she's chatty!"

There have been some passages in the book that really impressed me. I'm going to post one later for everyone to see. I think this writer has her moments as far as writing is concerned, but I'll concede that there have been issues--but not too bad for me.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

I really liked this passage from p.273/ch 27

The All at once, she was crying out and trembling like a leaf floating down from a high place. Somewhere beyond reality she was curling and turning and quivering with pleasure, rising again, falling again and again and again until, at last she lay still and all the world was silent with her.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Finished Book II

Alexei is scarcely any smarter than (view spoiler)[ Aunt Nikki! (hide spoiler)]
What a dumb idea telling (view spoiler)[ Elizabeth how he feels about Katia! When he’s been carrying on with Elizabeth! What a dimwit! (hide spoiler)]

If he weren’t so stupid, I say he should cast his lot (view spoiler)[with Elizabeth! (hide spoiler)] But she deserves better.!

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Uh oh!

The same spelling of Tsar or Czar is NOT being used.

I just noticed on p 314 Czar. Earlier in the book, it was spelled with a “T.”

[Hot Mess Sommelière ~ Caro]

Andrea, I just read your spoilers, they were mild and kind of in line with what I expected from Alexei dearest. The author DOES have her moments, with her prose, but it's clear that she has less grasp on her plotting and character building (there IS a lot of silliness going on and Aunt Nikki is just one example of the face-palmery. Still have hopes for (view spoiler)[ Elizabeth though (hide spoiler)].

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Caro wrote: "Andrea, I just read your spoilers, they were mild and kind of in line with what I expected from Alexei dearest. The author DOES have her moments, with her prose, but it's clear that she has less gr..."

I agree with yr assessment of the author’s plotting and characterization.

I finished the book this afternoon.

[Hot Mess Sommelière ~ Caro]

Ugh I need to catch up quick but I've had a meeting today and tomorrow too so a lot of PowerPoints to prepare and no down time for reading!

[Mel]

Sorry, been a bit slack as I am reading another book which is heaps better/more interesting.

[Mel]

I agree that Alexei (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

I still fee that (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Page 220

I still feel that <*spoiler> Katia and Alexei barely know each other despite their very few meetings, I do not feel the love or something is missing. The scenery of the story is not too bad but the romance, is lacking so far (too bland?) <*/spoiler>

[Mel]

Well, my spoiler did not work. I give up.

[Mel]

Should have said the background to the story. I actually find it more interesting than the romance.