A Court of Frost and Starlight (A Court of Thorns and Roses, #3.1) A Court of Frost and Starlight discussion

Does anyone else thinks that Rhysand is becoming Tamlin 2.0?

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message 1: by Thesushireader (new)

Thesushireader In my opinion Rhys is becoming posessive.

Alison♊⚜️✨ I don't get it, how is he becoming Tamlin? I didn't really see a change from ACOWAR and ACOFAS...

Monroe Brackey Alison wrote: "I don't get it, how is he becoming Tamlin? I didn't really see a change from ACOWAR and ACOFAS..."
I agree, I didn't see that much of a difference. He's just being protective just like all the other books they were together.

message 4: by Thesushireader (new)

Thesushireader Rhys isn't treating Feyre as his equal.
He won't let her go with him and sees her in this book more as a sex object (oh sorry his MATE).
Of course Rhys isn't really as abusive or controlling as Tamlin, but he's taking very tiny steps in that way.
I get it, Rhysand wants to protect Feyre, but in ACOMAF he explained that she's his equal and what happened in ACOFAS isn't what he explained he would do.

Madison No Rhys still treated her like an equal. He even asked her if she wanted to visit Tamlin with him even though he knew she was likely to refuse. He asked her because he wanted her to make that decision and to not have him decide for her. Also, he's protective of all of his friends, not just Feyre. He wasn't being possessive, he was protecting her as he would any member of his family. Also, he tells Feyre everything because he believes she's his equal, he even tells her stuff he'll withhold from Cassian who he views his brother

message 6: by Lauren (new)

Lauren Mongie Do you have any examples to back this up? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just not seeing any examples of what you're talking about in ACOMAF, ACOWAR, or the novella?

message 7: by Karla (new) - added it

Karla Absolutely not! I think that he is still the same, maybe he gave her space to heal after the war, but let her to decide how to move on, and just because he´s trying with different issues, such as the Ilarian´s rebelion, he´s being the perfect man for her

Madison Well in ACOFAS, Rhys knows that Feyre wouldn’t want to go see Tamlin, but even though he knows what her answer will be, he wants her to make her own decision and asks her before he goes to the spring court. Also, Rhys shares everything with her. Even when he’s withholding information from Cassian about the Illyrian armies, he tells Feyre. He tells Feyre because he tells her everything and doesn’t try to protect her or be possessive. Rhys is the opposite of Tamlin who shredded his entire house because he was upset that Feyre left him and took revenge on him for abusing her. And abused Lucien who came back for him. Rhys is nothing like Tamlin and is nowhere near becoming Tamlin.

Alison♊⚜️✨ Madison
I totally agree. Rhysand wasn’t stopping her from helping or doing something to help out Velaris like Tamlin did after Amarantha and Under the Mountain

Nikita I don't think so. Rhys isn't keeping Feyre from doing anything she wants. He isn't being abusive to her. He isn't keeping things from her. He cares about her needs and treats her with respect. He isn't expecting her to be just one thing like but educating her so she can find her own way as a High Fae and High Lady to help their people. He is possessive of her but that's because they are mates and that's normal.

Tamlin wanted to control her. He was abusive toward her, maybe not physical but mentally. He kept her from exploring and finding herself. He wanted to be just his wife and to give him heirs and not to be apart of the decision making of the court. He was possessive and didn't care about her needs.

So no, Rhys isn't like Tamlin.

Dazzling Rhys will never be Tamlin. Sex is normal for regular humans for Fae even more so. I don't even get why people liked Tamlin in book 1. All the red flags about his attitude, his anger management issues, and need for control were present. Feyre was blinded by love because he was the first person to really care for her. Tamlin sat on his sorry butt during Feyre's trials so I don't get his PTSD. I believe his attitude in ACOMAF is not because of the horrors Under the Mountain instead he is showing his true colors.

message 12: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Jun 08, 2018 04:16PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) I'll probably the odd one out of this discussion and state that I do believe that Rhysand is becoming more like Tamlin.... or better yet the bastardization of Tamlin we got in ACOMAF, wherein none of his qualities and all of his flaws were magnified. Unfortunately, not many people get to see this "Rhys becoming like Tamlin" thing as an issue because none of Rhys' defects are magnified. Not like it happened with Tamlin in ACOMAF prompting him to become a hated character.

message 13: by Dazzling (last edited Jun 09, 2018 10:17AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Dazzling What? The bastardization of Tamlin? He was like that from the start. People are blinded when someone that shows attraction to the main character appears. Rhys is becoming nothing like Tamlin. Unless I get a concrete example. All of Tamlin's "good' qualities in ACOTAR were, ironically, a mask. Which blinded a very human and naive Feyre. He was that stupid.

message 14: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Jun 10, 2018 02:17AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Atsushi wrote: "The bastardization of Tamlin?"

See here, I am not denying that Tamlin does not have issues. Oh yes he does, he is unstable, petty and angry. And he can be down right hate-able. But I don't think a person who has these defects CANNOT also be a decent person, if they so want.
What I mean by bastardization is that Feyra chose in ACOMAF to focus ONLY on the negative aspects of his character and ignoring the few things that made him a decent person in the end. Demonizing him and magnifying his already existing defects so that the reader can subsequently hate him.

Keep in mind that ALL we ever see about Tamlin in ACOMAF and ACOWAR onward is filtered through Feyra and Rhysand's perspective. Two people who subjectively hate Tamlin,
The reader does not get an objective or at least neutral perspective of Tamlin, so they can make their own minds who he really is.

A really good example of what I am saying here is present in the Song of Ice and Fire series. Robert Baratheon hates Raegar Targaryen because he stole Lyanna Stark from him. He has always demonized him for it, going as far as saying that he raped and killed her. Ned Stark, on the other hand, holds no particular grudge against Raegar and does not hate him, he does however fault him for starting Robert's Rebellion.
See what I am saying? We do not have a Ned Stark kind of perspective, to actually judge Tamlin fairly.

message 15: by Dazzling (last edited Jun 10, 2018 06:57AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Dazzling Feyre chose to focus on his negative aspects? Did we read the same ACOMAF? Feyre has what she calls a 'human heart'. She underwent 3 months of mental breaking in the Spring Court. She endured all of his foolishness for a long time ( for a human that is). She justified all his actions and even blamed herself multiple times. She forgave him for hurting her physically and in his fits of brutality. She even labeled herself as a traitor when she left Spring after Tamlin failed her so badly. So, yeah, wrong. She actually chose to see the GOOD in Tamlin and when he went over the limit and she could not take it anymore, she left.

Dazzling Heck even Lucien's potential was wasted in that poisoned Spring Court. He even said that the life, the court he expected at Spring was not present. I do agree that SJM did him dirty by still making Tamlin a hateful coward after the war. But it does not excuse his ridiculous shades of behavior in ACOTAR, and his true colors in ACOMAF. Yes, Feyre's perspective is credible to know the real nature of the High Lord of Spring. Feyre loved him deeply, and spent months with him and in his bed.

message 17: by Dazzling (last edited Jun 10, 2018 07:55AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Dazzling People in the Spring court look at him with respect and FEAR. Tamlin was a very milder Beron. He was not evil by any means it was just his stupid personality.

message 18: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Jun 10, 2018 10:30AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) I do understand your point. Like I said Tamlin does have flaws and they are many! I do not deny that nor do I deny that their relationship was based more on perception rather than seeing the defects of the person and calling them out on it.

However I would like to dispute a few things:
How Feyra displayed her subsequent feelings about him to the reader in ACOMAF and onward, left no room for interpretation on the part of the reader. I don't believe that Feyra being a Fae or being a human had anything to do with this shift in perspective - if anything it felt like she needed a reason to justify her own gullibleness. The experience itself Under the Mountain made her see him differently. It brought to light certain aspects of him that were promptly ignored before hand and that has nothing to do with what race Feyra was when she considered them. It has everything to do with her experience Under the Mountain and the aftermath of that experience.

I would also dispute your claim on the idea of Feyra being a credible perspective to show Tamlin's real nature. It is not because it falls into two extremes: absolute love (her perception of him was changed by her love for him) and absolute hate (her perception of him changed by her hatred for his actions before and after the events Under the Mountain). There is no middle ground to this. Thus it is not credible.

You mentioned that the people both feared and respected him. That is a rather contradictory statement as respect is seldomly won through fear. If his people indeed respected him then the fear they held for him concerned only that part of his personality that was flawed and was a result of that. I have to disagree with your statement about him being a milder Beron.
Beron was something that Tamlin was not and was beyond merciless. If Tamlin is capable to empathize with Feyra's grief the end of ACOWAR then that makes him less like Beron than you might think.

P.S. We did read the same ACOMAF but I rated it 2 stars. It was really problematic for me. Same as this novella.

message 19: by Dazzling (last edited Jun 11, 2018 12:48AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Dazzling Your second paragraph proves my point that Feyre and most (or some idk) of the readers were blinded by Tamlin's true nature in ACOTAR. I brought up Feyre being Fae because even though three months feel like nothing to regular, Unmade Fae, it would still be an immense amount of time for enduring all of his indirect torture and the lack of freedom.
In the Fae world, respect and fear do go together. He is a High Lord, a very powerful one at that. He is also quite a good leader. Hence the respect. Yet his people also know of his rage and his somehow cruelty (Tithe) which is why they also look at him with fear. So, yes, fear and respect can go together. *cough* Hitler *cough*.
And yes he is exactly Beron but a million times milder. They are both controlling, possesive Hig Lords with anger management issues.
All of the characters have flaws and issues. Even more than Tamlin because they had a lot more personality. Like I said during my previous post, Tamlin was not made evil like some readers interpret, instead it was his personality all along.
And ACOMAF was a book of great character development, finding love and family. So yes, we did read completely different books.

message 20: by Nicko Mocanu (last edited Jun 11, 2018 07:12AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) I still don't really buy into the whole "Tamlin was evil all along" argument you're bringing. Because if you say that you also imply that characters in ACOTAR series can be painted in either white or black. And there is no grey. I don't actually believe that Tamlin is a black morality character and I believe he is a character which hovers around the grey morality marker and stays there for most of the series, either fluctuating from white-grey to dark-grey but never becoming one or the other.

I personally have no special liking towards Tamlin, because the author bothered less on showing his actual personality - which can be debated as being blurry even in ACOFAS. He is pretty superficial and unrelatable, being shown through the eyes of other characters.
Which come to think of it MAY have been the exact intention, and also had the unfortunate implication of there being readers that either 1. like him 2. absolutely hate him 3. are neutral 4. try to understand him as a character < I enter category 4, even though I do not approve of most of his actions.

In all fairness, ALL High Fae men (I know it's males, but thanks to SJM I've come to rather despise that word) appear possessive, controlling and have trouble controlling their anger to a certain degree (yes, even Rhysand too) so the arguments you're bringing on the "Tamlin being like a milder Beron" part don't even make sense to begin with because that's how the race is built. I have yet to see a High Fae named male character of some importance) that has not displayed at least 1 of these 3 traits.
I have already pointed out a distinction of between Beron and Tamlin that has nothing to do with the inherent behavior of the race, i.e. Beron being merciless. Not all High Fae are merciless, but they can all have one of these traits you mentioned above, even if it's not apparent from the get go.

message 21: by Dazzling (last edited Jun 11, 2018 09:44AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Dazzling I can't figure out if you actually choose to misinterpret what I say or you just simply just don't understand. First, I never said Tamlin was evil. What I said was I don't get the people blinded by thinking that Tamlin was Flynn Rider prince charming and he was MADE EVIL in the second book. When in fact, what was seen in ACOMAF is his real nature. Possessive, controlling, and power hungry. He is NOT EVIL, it's just his personality. And what you said about being controlling, merciless is Fae nature therefore Tamlin and Beron's actions are justified is utterly wrong and complete horsecrap. The only general animal controlling instinct of Fae is in mating. Yet both Tamlin and Beron do not have mates. Tamlin and Beron both rule by imposing fear and upholding even the most brutal traditions. Rhysand, Tarquin, Helion, Kalias and Thesan are loved by their people which they love also equally. Beron was overly possesive and protective because the blood of the Lady of the Autumn Court was powerful and it ran true. While Tamlin truly loved Feyre and thought she was defenseless and in need of unduly protecting. Which is right, to an extent. Being protective is nature of every living being. But having too much of something can and will kill you. You should be grateful we are talking about fiction here, becuase generalizing habits and personalities of races will land you in knee-deep crap.

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) Atsushi wrote: "I can't figure out if you actually choose to misinterpret what I say or you just simply just don't understand."

I am merely stating how I see this grey morality character. I do not expect you to agree with what I say.

I am truly perplexed that you are offended by the discussion of general characteristics of a fictional race. I am sorry that I have to state this, but one person's opinion is not a direct attack on you or your opinion. If you think that what I said with my first statement to this thread and my subsequent replies, were a direct attack on your own opinion, that is not my fault. I do not expect for people to share my opinion about this book.
I am happy to have a non-confrontational discussion with a person, but if that person will not explicitly state WHY they think their arguments are more valid than my own, then this isn't much of a discussion is it? It's just a fight. I am not a person that seeks to have fights with random people on the internet.

Let us concede that we may never understand one another's point of view, before things turn out more ugly than they already are.

message 23: by Dazzling (last edited Jun 11, 2018 02:23PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Dazzling After re-reading my previous reply, my first statement does sound kind of hostile but it was a genuine question from me and I apologize if you took it as an insult. I said my first statement simply because your replies were completely different from the matters I gave with the exception of the Beron/Tamlin parallel. In which you gave bland points and in my last reply I gave concrete ones. We are having a debate therefore we are attacking with opinions. You argued by generalizing characteristics of a race to justify the two characters' unacceptable traits, which is wrong and is a horrible type of argument. It's like saying because it is normal for humans or to be more precise, it's our nature to be greedy then the actions of money-hungry politicians are justified. See how flawed that reasoning is? You did not even give definite examples to back up your claims and yet you tell me that I don't validate my claims? Yet again, you stray away from the topic at hand. And again, I did not intend my initial statement in the previous post to be a personal attack.

message 24: by Sonagi (new)

Sonagi Here is my take on both of you: Atsushi's replies does seem unfriendly not just the first statement of yout previous post. But he did give out stronger arguments but I think he could have put it out in a better way and not sound hostile?

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) I do agree that Atsushi's arguments are stronger, because I myself am really negatively biased when it comes to the series and it has passed 1-2 years and no rereads. I have forgotten much of what happened (for instance only now I remember Tamlin being a bit rapey in ACOTAR and also made no effort to protect Feyra from Amarantha, or even to stand up against her).
I tried in my best to argument my point of view on the character of Tamlin, how I saw him as a character and as a literary device, with the knowledge that i could remember from previous books. My answers may not have come across as coherent, but I at least tried to justify my arguments with the limited knowledge of the series I now currently have. I am in no way inclined to reread ACOTAR and if I do so I will focus less on Feyra and Rhysand (because Heavens know the author already does that) and more one how they view other characters, like Tamlin, Elain, Nesta... Lucian maybe as well. (I do however believe that their narration is too biased and less reliable overall)

I do apologize for this discussion degenerating into something less like a discussion and more like jabs at the logical flaws each other have.

Fire heart No way! However, I think that Rhys has gotten a bit mean... BUT he can never become Tamlin

Alison♊⚜️✨ Yeah Rhys was a little mean towards Tamlin when he visited the Spring court but nothing Tamlin didn’t deserve, looking at all that he did to both Rhys and Feyre

Fire heart Alison wrote: "Yeah Rhys was a little mean towards Tamlin when he visited the Spring court but nothing Tamlin didn’t deserve, looking at all that he did to both Rhys and Feyre"

nobody deserves the kind of depression that Tamlin is going through.

Alison♊⚜️✨ Well didn’t he kind of bring it onto himself by being the way that he was??

Alison♊⚜️✨ But I agree with you on the point that even when Rhys was a little harsh with Tamlin, he wouldn’t do the stuff that Tamlin did...

Fire heart Alison wrote: "Well didn’t he kind of bring it onto himself by being the way that he was??"

I do agree that Tamlin made many horrible mistakes, but he is trying to come back from it. Tamlin has been a jerk to both Rhys and Feyre, but like I said earlier, he is trying to come back from it. Yes, he does deserve for something bad to happen to him, but I think that SJM went a bit to far.
Depression is a really serious thing, and it is obvious that he is going through it.

Alison♊⚜️✨ Yeah true but maybe he’ll get a book of his own where Maas could make Tamlin go through each of those issues in order to redeem himself or something so you see the change maybe...

Fire heart I would like that. I think we need a bit more from Tamlin's POV. I think that Tamlin is redeemable all he heeds to do is work through his issues

Fire heart *needs* not heeds

Alison♊⚜️✨ Yeah that and also apologise to the people he’s hurt along the way..

Nicko Mocanu (Elril Moonweaver) To both Alison and Fire heart:

I am not sure if Maas is going to explore Tamlin as he probably deserves: as a grey, broken character who has done much wrong but warrants his own recovery arc, in the end. Because, let's face it, Maas holds Feyra and Rhys and their Inner Circle, her white characters, in much higher esteem than her morally grey characters: Tamlin, Nesta and Lucien to some extent.

I can't say this enough, no matter how much Tamlin has wronged Feyra and Rhys, NO ONE deserves to suffer through severe depression.

Dazzling Though Tamlin brought all his suffering, which he deserves, upon himself, if SJ Maas does not give him the super character development a broken character deserves, then I'm out.

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