"The Moon and the Other" by John Kessel (BR)

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Here is the thread for The Moon and the Other. Please mark spoilers and label the chapters they come from so we know when it's safe to click!

[Rachel]

I’ll be starting t his soon!!

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Awesome! I’m really enjoying it so far. Some of the storylines seem a little disconnected but the main plot thread is excellent.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Just finished Chapter 5:

(view spoiler)[ I wasn’t too sure about Erno or Armestis’s (I’m spelling this wrong I’m sorry) story lines at first. The Carey and Mira one hooked me in right away. But after finishing this I’m hooked on both. I think they are great together as a couple. It feels like they have chemistry and they complement each other. Erno having been raised in the Society is very respectful of women (maybe even fearful in a way?) and she’s calm and confident. He lets her guide him when he is unsure of himself (your niche is to touch people, you got this, etc.). I don’t think Erno is a weak or emasculated character by any means but it’s nice to see this power dynamic in the book.

I’m curious about the Society. So far all I really understand is that women are in power, men have no rights and are sort of kept as pets. But I want to know more. What is the extent of their oppression? What prompted this societal structure in the first place? I know they point to war and genocide examples of what happens in patriarchal societies but this doesn’t really justify anything because they are a singular colony sharing the moon with 20 other societies and they are the only ones oppressing men- right? So do they think they could somehow avoid war with other colonies just by being a matriarchy? Negotiate peace with everyone while war breaks out around them? That seems kind of naive (and I guess is probably the point). Lastly- what stops the men from leaving the Society? Why can’t they just emigrate to another colony? (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Just finished Chapter 9:

(view spoiler)[[in reference to scooping bird poop out from under bird feeders] "...it gave men who sought the franchise something to do. So nine times out of ten, the person you saw scooping up birdshot from below a tree was a man. When he was seventeen he'd considered this grounds for revolution. Now that Erno had spent ten years doing such work and worse in the patriarchies - not because he was male, but simply because he was poor - he was not so sure."

This is sort of fascinating to me. I've never really thought about things in this manner. If we separate people by race, gender, sexuality, etc. it is undoubtedly oppression. When they are separated by socioeconomic class is it also oppression? Is being poor any more of a "choice" then the color of your skin or gender or sexuality? Socioeconomic classes are something that can change certainly, but truly- how often does it happen? The wealthy automatically have access to better schools, better resources, better opportunities/connections, etc. and often have done nothing more to earn it than any of their less wealthy counterparts (in case of legacy admissions in ivy league schools they've done arguably less to earn it).

I think I need some time to sit on this one. Looking forward to everyone else's thoughts on the matter. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Finished! I didn't mean to move through it so quickly but it was really hard to put down.

End of book (MAJOR SPOILERS):
(view spoiler)[Ugh! What a twist- I really didn't see that coming. I did sort of see Carey's resurrection coming, but I didn't expect it to come from Cyrus. And I also sort of wish the author just hadn't. I don't think it really added anything and it lessened the impact of Carey 2's death.

I'm curious about what happened between Erno and Amestris. It seems like they still love each other but just grew apart?

While overall I really loved this book- I'm curious what Kessel was getting at here. With the theme of "The One and the Other" ongoing clearly some exploration in difference between men and women. I was thinking he was leading us up to some grand conclusion about how utopia might be achieved, but in consideration of the conclusion it really was kind of a grim outlook. The patriarchies oppress women and "others" while the matriarchy oppresses men. He seems to conclude that the matriarchy's way is better overall but the men could not appreciate it unless they ventured out of society to see that people in general were no better off in other societies (as Erno had).

Then the patriarchy comes in and squashes all that anyway. It just felt sort of hopeless. Even the idea that one was doing it any better then the other while oppression occurred in both societal structures was kind of depressing.

I don't know- really curious to hear everyone else's thoughts. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Wait what?! You read it in a day?!

Well it’s up next for me...once we move...😐

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Rachel wrote: "Wait what?! You read it in a day?!

Well it’s up next for me...once we move...😐"

A weekend! I have to return it before tomorrow :(. Don't let that rush you or anything. I think there were a few others planning to join in. And I'll still be checking in for the discussion. I'm really interested to hear what everyone thinks. Good luck on your move!

[Silvana]

I have two books to finish before this, but I'll be here.

[Rachel]

Ok I got sidetracked when Artificial Condition (Murderbot 2) came in for me at the library but now I’m ready to dive into TMatO - anyone else starting soon?

[Silvana]

Apparently my current read is rather hard to finish quickly. It's a Mieville book so I should have known.... *grumbling*

I still need a few days.

[Silvana]

Okay, just bought it and starting.

[Rachel]

I think I’m about 100 pages in - need to get to a laptop to check previous spoilers etc.
So far pretty impressed- good characters, interesting working with genders, good but subtle world building

[Silvana]

I'm still at page 50. Too many work trips nowadays. Too knackered to read in the evening :(

[Silvana]

But I like the harsh environment survival story like this! And Society of Cousins is fascinating. Can't wait to know more.

[Rachel]

I recently read Herland and of course there’s the Amazons - both interesting comparisons to SoC

[Silvana]

End of chapter 3

(view spoiler)[shocking. Is that typical for anyone in Persepolis? I think it is some sort of rebellion against her dad but boy that proposal was so weird. (hide spoiler)]

I liked that social experiment in the Society of the Cousins. Of course there will be flaws but if it can reduce sexual violence towards women I'm all for it.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Silvana wrote: "End of chapter 3

[spoilers removed]

I liked that social experiment in the Society of the Cousins. Of course there will be flaws but if it can reduce sexual violence towards women I'm all for it."

Ha! I loved that part but I do remember being weirded out by it at first.

In regards to chapter 3:
(view spoiler)[I think it has to do with this fetish she has of being dominated. She likes it, but with strict limits that the man is not taking advantage or being abusive (which is how it should be, but likely hard to find in the one night stands she seems to have). So she saw a man from the SoC that could suit her needs perfectly and seized the opportunity for multiple reasons.

In regards to your question about marriages (it’s sort of told later in the book so don’t read if you’d consider it a spoiler), I got the impression that marriages are more of a contract on the Moon than a gesture of love. (hide spoiler)]

[Silvana]

I'm on page 118 or 19% in my Kindle.

Ugh, I don't like Carey.

Also I found a weakness for the society (view spoiler)[if they're being so amazing sisterhood and all, why they let Mira raised her bro by herself? And they blamed her for not looking for help. (hide spoiler)]

But the way they're being so casual about past relationships is rather refreshing.

Love the detailed worldbuilding.

Sarah wrote: "Silvana wrote: "End of chapter 3

[spoilers removed]

I liked that social experiment in the Society of the Cousins. Of course there will be flaws but if it can reduce sexual violence towards women ..."

I see. I can see that. Especially with the episode on the pool (but that was crossing the line for her)

As for the marriage being (view spoiler)[contract-like (hide spoiler)], funnily it also happens in Ian McDonald's Luna series - which now I know you also follow :D We love this moon books.

[Silvana]

Rachel wrote: "I recently read Herland and of course there’s the Amazons - both interesting comparisons to SoC"

I have Herland and plan to read it. Is it a long read? Like, hard to get into?

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Silvana wrote: "I'm on page 118 or 19% in my Kindle.

Ugh, I don't like Carey.

Also I found a weakness for the society [spoilers removed]

But the way they're being so casual about past relationships is rather r..."

Ha I know right!! I feel like half of the stuff I’ve read this year has been set on the moon. Yes I loved McDonald’s world building in that and I feel like there are lots of similarities between them, but this book is happening on a smaller scale. I can’t wait for book 3, though I’m a little sad as I think it’s been pushed back to late next year.

[Rachel]

I think Herland would be great to read with this! No it’s pretty short - it’s really an academic thought experiment not s novel if that makes sense.

[Silvana]

Sarah wrote: "Just finished Chapter 5:

I wasn’t too sure about Erno or Armestis’s (I’m spelling this wrong I’m sorry) story lines at first. The Carey and Mira one hooked me in right away. But after finishing t..."

I think...I liked the Erno and Armestis pair better. Mira has not been very appealing to me and so does Carey. I agree with your observation of Erno and we got to see more proof of that in the later chapters.

As for the Society
(view spoiler)[they did however give men a chance and facilities to pursue their interests and excel on it. And it is not like every man is wholly a subject of women like in a normal real life harem, the sex needs to be consensual as far as I can tell.

The voting part is of course the other big drawback I could see.

As for the migrating part, not sure yet... (hide spoiler)]

Also I was reminded of lions, the young males have to leave the pride but this time it is the lioness.

[Silvana]

I am at the end of chapter 7

Erno's storyline is getting more interesting.

And the (view spoiler)[Tyler Durden thing (hide spoiler)]
was just hilarious.

Carey reminds me of Lucasinho from Luna series.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Silvana wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Just finished Chapter 5:

I wasn’t too sure about Erno or Armestis’s (I’m spelling this wrong I’m sorry) story lines at first. The Carey and Mira one hooked me in right away. But aft..."

(view spoiler)[In retrospect I actually agree with your evaluation of Carey and Mira. Carey is kind of pampered by the many powerful women around him and Mira is very bitter. What drew me in about their story was their rebellion. I thought that whole story line was going somewhere else, but by the end it was Erno and Armestris that won me over.

As for the society- I think you are much more astute than I am, haha! I have the benefit of looking back and knowing the story but you seem to be picking it up quicker than I did. This is why buddy reads are good. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Silvana wrote: "I am at the end of chapter 7

Erno's storyline is getting more interesting.

And the [spoilers removed]
was just hilarious.

Carey reminds me of Lucasinho from Luna series."

Ugh I know. All he needs are a few outfit changes. lol.

[Silvana]

Sarah wrote: "Just finished Chapter 9:

."

I kind of look at it from a different way.
The perception of the work is what differentiates the Society. What other colonies see as menial and degrading jobs are considered 'important and dignified' in the Society.

I do see your point that class difference is not based on choice. Then again the Mita jobs are optional, unlike in Persepolis, where if you are already at the bottom of the ladder then you got much less choices and it is already a survival matter.

Also from this chapter, that Sirius is so mysterious!
I need to read Uplifted by David Bryn. Have you read it?

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Silvana wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Just finished Chapter 9:

."

I kind of look at it from a different way.
The perception of the work is what differentiates the Society. What other colonies see as menial and degradin..."

Oh yeah that’s a great point too! As for the class differences, I don’t know that I was even thinking about it in terms of the book but just applying it to my own world views. I’ve kind of taken a liking to novels that examine utopia, what it would look like and how it would operate and so far I can’t think of any mentions of specifically that.

I haven’t read Uplifted yet! We can always add it to the list for the end of the year... or next year. Lol

[Silvana]

The Dispossessed has a slightly (?) more depressing utopia. But I liked the anarchist social experiment there.

I am almost finished but have some notes:

chapter 11
I was wrong about the Society. Men still had (view spoiler)[voting ability, albeit with conditions. (hide spoiler)]

also on the same chapter, the explanation on Hierarchy in patriarchal society, that's similar with Sarah's question.

chapter 12
Apparently I was wrong again, the Society did (view spoiler)[offered Mira help. Another brownie point. (hide spoiler)]

chapter 13
(view spoiler)[Holy crap, what a revelation! (hide spoiler)]

also in that chapter, what's a noögendered?

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I’ll have to check out The Dispossesed. It’s been on my list but I have tendency to gravitate towards newer rather than classics for some stupid reason so it always gets pushed back.

In regards to the noogendered- I don’t recall. I do know there were (view spoiler)[instances of men who were castrated (I think I’m remembering that correctly, but it was by choice of the men) as I believe it earns them more rights, or could it be a Moon term for queer? (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Chapter 13 is that about Carey? I’m sorry- I’m feeling like such a jerk for not having my copy on hand.

[Silvana]

It could be a typo for nongendered but just want to make sure.

Yep about Carey.

[Silvana]

Forgot to post a message here. I finished two days ago. Really, really liked this book. The ending was rather (view spoiler)[meh with the marriage thing - like, really?

But I am glad the Society is trying to get up again.... Those damn patriarchist invaders! Absolutely no sympathy for them.
(hide spoiler)]

On the characters, I think Carey had the best character growth. Remember when I said I don't like him? :)

Au contraire, Erno disappointed me. So did Amestris.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Silvana wrote: "Forgot to post a message here. I finished two days ago. Really, really liked this book. The ending was rather meh with..."

I really enjoyed this one too! I agree the (view spoiler)[marriage thing disappointed me too. I sort of wished I had just stopped reading before the epilogue because I felt like it didn’t add anything to the story and actually detracted a bit.

For Carey- do you mean Carey 2 or Carey 3 lol? I was so annoyed when he was resurrected. I agree that overall he probably experienced the most growth, but I thought Mira did pretty good too. Moving in with the family, getting over Carey, etc.

Also- what do you think of the uplifted dogs and such? Do they look like dogs? Or do they look more like people with fur and paws? That whole bit sort of grossed me out. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

I just finished - I’m still percolating- but really surprised this hasn’t gotten more attention. As a Hugo voter I’m kind of surprised that it is not on that list in place of a couple others.....

[Silvana]

It has not getting enough buzz. I only know this book since John Kessel was interviewed by the Coode Street Podcast.

I have not read The Collapsing Empire (one of the nominees) but knowing Scalzi, I doubt it could top this book.

[Silvana]

And Provenance is wayyyyy overrated. Ugh.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Silvana wrote: "And Provenance is wayyyyy overrated. Ugh."

I enjoyed Provenance, but I agree it wasn't as good as this. I have novels that I take seriously and try to read critically and analyze, like this one, and then I have novels that I appreciate purely for entertainment value, and Provenance was on that end of the spectrum. I enjoyed it as a entertaining diversion but didn't feel like I was given much to think about.

[Rachel]

I found out about from Locus magazine which thought highly of it and then my mom got it as a gift so...

I also found several of the Hugo nominees...more ‘fun’ books versus serious thoughtful books. And I generally feel that the Hugo at least should be more ‘serious’ since ‘fun’ seems to win popularity easier...if any of this makes sense. I greatly enjoyed both Provenance and Collapsing Empire but I think this book deserves to be up against books like The Stone Sky and Raven Strategem

[Silvana]

Sarah wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Forgot to post a message here. I finished two days ago. Really, really liked this book. The ending was rather meh with..."

I really enjoyed this one too! ."

Yep, the epilogue was unnecessary. Agree with that Carey. But it is kind of expected from Cyrus.

Also,i am actually disappointed that Sirius (view spoiler)[was among the villains. I was hoping he taught a lesson for the humans, Society or not, but yeah he is like Rocket Racoon, a bitter uplifted animal.

I think he looks like a proper Doberman but spend most time standing on his haunches or use a special chair (hide spoiler)]

[Silvana]

Rachel wrote: "I found out about from Locus magazine which thought highly of it and then my mom got it as a gift so...

I also found several of the Hugo nominees...more ‘fun’ books versus serious thoughtful books..."

Was it a Gary K Wolfe's column?

Stone Sky is great but I hope NK Jemisin won't win since she already got two in a row and Stone was not as good as the first two. Also, Raven Stratagem was fantastic.

I have New York 2140 to read too and have high hopes for that one.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Silvana wrote: "Rachel wrote: "I found out about from Locus magazine which thought highly of it and then my mom got it as a gift so...

I also found several of the Hugo nominees...more ‘fun’ books versus serious t..."

Is New York 2140 a buddy read? My library says it will come through for me in about 6 weeks (it’s been on hold for 6 already).

[Silvana]

Nope, but I have a BR schedule for it in early August. July is overpacked :(

[Ashley in Wonderland]

Behind on this too, but I’ve finished chapter 4 and I’m really, really enjoying it! The Society of Cousins is fascinating.

If y’all are serious about reading the Uplift series, count me in! The first book, Sundiver, is on my TBR cleanup challenge.

[Silvana]

Welcome, Ashley!
I am quite serious about Uplift... I have an opening in my schedule, but in October 😅

[Ashley in Wonderland]

My apologies for “necroposting,” guys! I’ve just gotten so behind since going on vacation. And my kids went back to school today so it’s been busy.

I really enjoyed this. It was compelling. I struggled with choosing either a 4 or 5 star rating, and went with a 4 only because I just didn’t get that warm fuzzy feeling at the end so I can’t say I loved it. (view spoiler)[I think it was mostly what happened to Carey that turned me off. I feel very, not just sad, but deeply mournful for him. I can’t imagine what he’s been through. I can’t even tell you why I liked him, but he was probably my favorite character. The only good thing I could see that came from his second resurrection was that Val maybe benefitted from it. He never really had a proper father figure but now he has a best friend/brother/cousin type, someone who is just like him in so many ways, that he can go through life and experience everything with. (hide spoiler)] I thought all the world building was extremely well done but the SoC especially was beyond fascinating. I disagree with some aspects of it but overall I think it’s brilliant. Sirius was a really interesting character who I was always excited to see show up because I couldn’t wait to find out what he was going to do or say next. I hope Uplift gives us characters as interesting as him. I also thought the debate over whether or not we should uplift animals, and the fact that the SoC is against it, was really interesting too and I wish it was talked about more.

Sarah - That’s a good idea; I could’ve done without the epilogue, too. Also, your thoughts about the poor being oppressed - I feel very strongly about this and so I appreciated the author’s thoughts on it. It was really interesting to see what Erno’s life was like inside and out of the SoC. (view spoiler)[The way the SoC was overtaken spoiled it for me too, I think. Because like you said, it just seemed hopeless after that. I don’t know. It still gives me lots to think about. I’m just always kind of hoping for a “happy ending,” I guess. (hide spoiler)] I think you should definitely read The Dispossessed if you liked this so much. It has a similar feel to it, and it was an easy 5+ stars for me. I was in love with the writing, the world building, and the main character from the first chapter.

Silvana - (view spoiler)[I wanted Sirius to be a good guy too. That was disappointing. I was hoping he would be an inspiration! (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Love your thoughts Ashley! (view spoiler)[I think Carey’s resurrection was the single most disappointing thing for me. Like you said- he just deserved better. He went out a hero- he should be remembered for that, not for being the guy with the most clones.

It does bring up some interesting ideas- like, would you mourn a person who died but was also right there in front of you? Are they really the same person? Do you have a favorite between them? If so, is that fair to either of them?

And Carey 3 I vaguely recall seemed like a jerk, but it is sort of understandable also because he had just regressed in age to be a teen again. (hide spoiler)]

[Ashley in Wonderland]

Sarah wrote: "Love your thoughts Ashley!"

(view spoiler)[Right. It was very upsetting. It made his character arc take a steep downward turn because instead of ending up as the hero who seemed to have grown and matured somewhat, he's right back to being an angsty teen with ridiculous, debilitating popularity. And to think that he doesn't remember anything! All his memories, all his experiences, everything that has happened to him is just gone. He had a child for Christ's sake, but no recollection of it. That's something he can never get back. He literally skipped over several decades of his life and then just had to start over again, while everyone around him is older and has all this knowledge and memories he doesn't have. I hate it! And you mentioned how his loved ones might feel - I can't imagine that either! Other than, as a mom, I can assume his mom was more okay with it than others. I wasn't crazy about Mira but I still sympathize with her for losing her version of Carey. That had to be so hard, especially since she's a part of the family now! Like I said, Val is the only one I feel may have benefitted. But on the other hand, any wisdom Carey would've been able to pass down to him now that they're so close is nonexistent. I do like how they left the SoC for awhile though and got to explore other colonies. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yikes.

I have such a very different feeling towards this. Carey's story feels like the "best case" that men who have heard women are angry at them might take... TO MEN.

The whole Cousins society felt like a man's hot take on second wave feminism, and not a good faith effort to think through the desire to stop dick measuring from overtaking society.

Similarly, it's contrasted with a form of libertarianism that allows for bought-for violence and Sharia law, which I find does not not encompass the masculine experience, and rather all share the same hate of men and fear of their influence, which is that they can't stop that they are drawn to violence and seduced by access to a warm hole. What a terribly limited view of the masculine! This does not align with my understanding of gender or genitalia, and I think its crass misrepresentation speaks to a masculine that cannot forget its roots in violence and sex even if we're supposed to question that outcome.

Even Carey's recreation is part of a weird parsing of the feminine that is responsible for giving life that also encompasses what happens when men take that life away.

Not impressed.