City of Heavenly Fire (The Mortal Instruments, #6) City of Heavenly Fire discussion


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sebastion and clary?

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Aria C am i the only one who wanted sebastion and clary to be together?


Gauri As twisted as it sounds, I wanted that too. Especially in book 6 because in someway he made clary seem so special. And let's face it girls dig feeling supremely special.


Sarah I actually had thought that at the start when they first met like in City of Glass that they could be together... But then he started killing... Especially when he killed Max... But no you are not the only one, I had actually wanted that too a little


Christopher I know people want Clary and Sebastion to to be together but they're brother and sister thats a little sick even if they were't and sebastion wasen't evil they never really would match up like Jace and Clary.


The Bookworm's Reviews Isn't it Sebastian? With an a c:


Chelsey Morgan This is probably the most disturbing thing I've ever read. No offense... I wanted great things for Sebastian, he was my favorite character but everyone freaked out about Jace and Clary and they weren't even related. It would be disgusting and immoral for a brother and sister to end up together... I had hoped there would be a girl out there for him and NOT the double crossing Seelie Queen.


Naomi Speakman At first, in City of Lost Souls, I did actually want them to be together. I know incest is sick and twisted, and I know it's wrong and immoral, but I simply couldn't shake the fantasies of Clabastian.
I wanted them to be together because I wanted Sebastian to have everything he wanted, because I thought he deserved it. He was my favourite character. He was impossibly sexy, and attractive, and dark and humorous, and I loved him to the point where I was actually cheering him on to burn down the world.
I never considered for a moment what poor Clary wanted, and really I should have. When Sebastian died and was Jonathan at the last moment, my perspective changed dramatically. I no longer wanted them to be together; all I wanted was Clary to have the brother she'd always wanted, and Jocelyn to have the son she'd always dreamed of.
Shipping them in the first place was kind of wrong. Because I loved Sebb and thought only of what he wanted and never stopped to question what Clary did.


message 8: by Lev (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lev No I love Sebastian and The Seelie Queen perfect couple.


Naomi Speakman But have you ever questioned why, when Sebastian and the Queen slept together, he took a lock of her red hair and looked at it? He was thinking of Clary, and was probably fantasising about her when he and the Queen were doing it.


crystal sanchez No. I never wanted them to be together. Jace and Clary are perfect. If Sebastian and Clary were to be together i would cry but then again CLary would never, ever want to be with her REAL brother. And in the first 3 books the only reason her and Jace would sometimes kiss was because they never really thought they were siblings. I like Sebastian and the Seelie Queen together although it surprised me when they were together in City of Heavenly Fire


message 11: by Brit (new) - rated it 5 stars

Brit I never wanted them to be together either. The idea that they were related and that he wanted to be with her in a romantic way was a little old fashion/disturbing. I wish they could have been siblings like they were in her demon induced dream in City of Heavenly Fire, but even that would have been too good to be true.


message 12: by Nicole D. (last edited Aug 02, 2014 03:15PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nicole D. Never wanted them to be together.I hated Sebastian plus they can't be together because THEY ARE BROTHER AND SISTER and that is just wrong on so many levels.Next Sebastian is evil and can't love.Did people not read that passage about what he thought love was on page 577.He can't love because he doesn't know what it is.The Demon blood burned out his humanity.Three he tried to rape Clary.

I still can't understand why people love a character who wants to watch the world burn and is an attempted rapist.The only thing I ever felt for Sebastian and even then it was a small bit of pity for having been turned into a monster by demon blood and never having a chance to be human.


Nicole D. Lev wrote: "No I love Sebastian and The Seelie Queen perfect couple."

I agree they are the perfect couple both cruel and selfish and soulless.Mainly because I was happy the Queen was tricked somewhat about Sebastian.

MissMorgenstern wrote: "But have you ever questioned why, when Sebastian and the Queen slept together, he took a lock of her red hair and looked at it? He was thinking of Clary, and was probably fantasising about her when..."


Yes I already guessed that.But what surprised me is that the Queen didn't figure it out.I always thought she was smarter then that and bet she did also.


message 14: by Nicole D. (last edited Aug 02, 2014 03:23PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nicole D. Chelsey wrote: "This is probably the most disturbing thing I've ever read. No offense... I wanted great things for Sebastian, he was my favorite character but everyone freaked out about Jace and Clary and they wer..."

I agree about it being disturbing and even more disturbing because more then one person wanted a brother and sister to be together plus if the first thing wasn't bad wanted someone to be with there attempted rapist.I wanted Sebastian dead from the moment he killed Max and then as he became more horrible I wanted him dead even more.I was hoping he would die a more horrible death then he did.In fact I was a little disappointed about him not suffering more.


Nicole D. Gauri wrote: "As twisted as it sounds, I wanted that too. Especially in book 6 because in someway he made clary seem so special. And let's face it girls dig feeling supremely special."

Yes almost being raped is special right?I don't think so but maybe you do.


Naomi Speakman Nicole D. wrote: "Never wanted them to be together.I hated Sebastian plus they can't be together because THEY ARE BROTHER AND SISTER and that is just wrong on so many levels.Next Sebastian is evil and can't love.Did..."

Most people wanted them to be together because it was presented to pose as a possibility. Also because those who worshipped Sebastian wanted whatever he wanted: Clary.
For someone to love Sebastian, they need to come to an understanding of his character. And to do that, you have to look beyond his actions for the reasons behind them. There really are no excuses for what he did, no words that could repent, but it's like watching an autistic child kick a puppy yet understanding why the child did it.
It was Valentine's doing. He created Sebastian out of pure greed because he wanted power. He used Sebastian as a tool. It's horrible even to think of someone bringing a child into this world not with the intention of loving them but to use them as a lethal weapon. I mean, it's not like Sebastian had a choice in the matter; he was an innocent baby turned into an evil monster who lacked empathy. Valentine beat him for the first 10 years of his life, apparently not recognizing that his son was corrupt enough and lethal enough without driving him down further into more darkness.
Because of Valentine, Jocelyn told Sebastian he was a monster and left him with Valentine, despite her having witnessed what Valentine made him!
Sebastian had nothing his entire life, no sister to take care of and no love to cherish. And he couldn't. Because he didn't understand it. Due to him being raised without that kind of affection, he really had nothing to go on. He even stated in CoLS: "In the end, you always go back to what you know."
If Jocelyn had simply given him a chance and raised him with love and passion, then maybe he wouldn't have turned so wicked. Also in CoLS, he said: "If you loved me, maybe you could have saved me. And to Clary: "What do you think would have happened if Valentine had brought you up along with me? Would you have loved me?"
Most of what he says is a farse, I'll admit. But there must have been some depth of truth behind them for him to sound so convincing.
Even Clary said she'd noticed how lonely Sebastian truly was.


Kariny 'Books of Fandom' MissMorgenstern wrote: "Nicole D. wrote: "Never wanted them to be together.I hated Sebastian plus they can't be together because THEY ARE BROTHER AND SISTER and that is just wrong on so many levels.Next Sebastian is evil ..."

yeps i totally agree! sometimes i kind of felt bad for Sebastian:(


Gauri Nicole D: I can't quote you because I am posting this from my cellphone and honestly I don't know how to do it anyway. You say that Sebastian was evil and he didn't have the capacity to love but that was because he had demon blood in him. When jace was under influence of dark forces he did many bad thing too. But people still rooted for him. Anyways that is not the point, what you are saying is absolutely right and Sebastian and clary's relationship would have been wrong on so many levels. But when I was reading the book I couldn't help but think the way I did and I thought expressing my opinion in front of few strangers won't really matter. Your rape point really did shut me up. I liked your opinion but it would be nicer if you could have phrased in a less harsher manner. After all we should all respect each other's opinion. I am not trying to be mean, I assure you that. It really is a genuine request.


Nicole D. @Gauri
I am sorry I was harsh but rape has always been a sensitive subject with me.2 of my aunts were raped.


Gauri Sorry to hear that. Rape is a horrendous crime and no one should be subject to that. I can understand your outrage. No harm done. Cheers :)


Naomi Speakman That is understandable why you feel that way.
But Sebastian didn't actually rape her; he sexually assaulted her. I know that doesn't excuse what he did, but Sebastian was also part-demon and was only capable of wanting.


Gauri @missmorgenstern- first of all I like your username. I agree a lot with what you have said in this thread. I also thought jace and clary's relationship didn't have much depth. Jace liked clary from the first time they met. It was more like love at first sight. I am not a huge believer in that. Secondly he never really justified why he liked clary except that he felt he belonged somewhere when he was with her but how? he never explained that part. Whereas Sebastian at least had an explain that he thought they were both alike. Both ruthless and cold hearted. Also Sebastian made a lot of efforts to get clary and he was always seeking for her approval. Although most of this stuff was his irrational thinking but still his want for her seemed more legit that jace's love. I also found jace's character very weak. It was like he was the damsel in distress most of the time in the story. He was emotionally broke, clary saves his sorry butt a number of times whether it be with heavenly fire or when he in dies in city of glass or when he gets tied up with Sebastian. Overall he really wasn't as strong as he was claimed to be through out the story. Definitely not the kind of character one roots for in a story, neither was he the underdog like simon so you would want to support him out of pity. That just leaves Sebastian I guess, maybe that's why I supported him.


message 23: by Ness (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ness I never even thought of them together. I always wanted her with Jace. When they said that they were brother and sister in the first book, I was just completely crushed. I asked my sister who had just started the fourth book at the time if they really were because I just couldn't stand it. I was so relieved when they weren't. Then I was just searching City of Ashes and City of Glass waiting for them to realize that they weren't siblings. When she met Sebastian the first time I new he was going to try and be with her so I hated him. When I pick a side of a love triangle, I pick a side and it rarely ever wavers! So I was never team Sebastian. I wish that Sebastian was like he was in the dream and that Jocelyn had taken her "normal" son and had Clary in New York and it all played out from there, and then Jace, Jonathan, and Clary could have fought Valentine as a team. And even if Sebastian did have demon blood in him when Jocelyn took him away from Idris, they would have been there together and be there for each other. But Sebastian did sexually assault her, and among other things. And I never realized that yes, when Jace was connected to Sebastian, most everyone dismissed all the horrible things Jace did. He even murdered someone and I felt bad for him because he had to go though that, that Sebastian made him go through that. I want to say that I want to open a new eye when I look at this or when I reread the series, but I doubt that I will. I love Jace and I will always be on his side.


Naomi Speakman Gauri wrote: "@missmorgenstern- first of all I like your username. I agree a lot with what you have said in this thread. I also thought jace and clary's relationship didn't have much depth. Jace liked clary from..."

Thanks:) I like my username too!

Jace felt a sense of belonging with Clary because the two were bound by extra angel blood. The Seelie Queen explains that in City of Fallen Angels.
There really is no possible way Jace can explain his love for Clary. He loves her because she is brave and wears her heart on her sleeve, unlike himself, and that is what made her the better part of him. He was afraid of caring and getting it thrown back in his face, whereas Clary showed him it was better to love and lose than never to love at all.
Love (and I know I'm going to sound extremely melodramatic) simply cannot be explained in terms of words. It can be explained through music, through poems, through art, but not words. It's like trying to explain what water tastes like. It just goes to prove how much Jace really did love her and how wrongly Sebastian mistook it.


message 25: by Ness (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ness MissMorgenstern wrote: "Gauri wrote: "@missmorgenstern- first of all I like your username. I agree a lot with what you have said in this thread. I also thought jace and clary's relationship didn't have much depth. Jace li..."

That was well said. You nailed the part on Jace and Clary's relationship.


The  Bookmarked One MissMorgenstern wrote: "Gauri wrote: "@missmorgenstern- first of all I like your username. I agree a lot with what you have said in this thread. I also thought jace and clary's relationship didn't have much depth. Jace li..."

I totally agree with you!! I can see how you made TMI a part of yourself( I mean everyone does it,but still...)
I also wanted Sebsatian and Clary to be together... I guess it was mostly because I really hoped Sebastian would live and Clary is like an opposite of him in each and every way possible.. And they (would) make a perfect couple.. But nonetheless... I kind of miss Sebastian.. I never wanted CoHF to end (nor did I want TMI to).. Sebastian never was the person he could have been.. If only he would have been raised the way Jace was raised we could expect a completely different Sebastian.. But I still love this Sebastian... If only Sebastian could have feelings.. But even in his animate emotions and him being feeling-less I find him as a really good person... Demon blood really was the worst part and all the things he ever did were truly unforgivable... But let's face it there would be no TMI if Sebastian never existed...
It's not like the others didn't matter but Sebastian was the one who stood out to me throughout the series.. I only hoped that I could get more of him in the series... I really miss him... :(


message 27: by [deleted user] (new)

Ariauna wrote: "am i the only one who wanted sebastion and clary to be together?"

Nope, honestly I wanted it too, the only problem was Clary was a terrible character and a terrible person and Sebastian was amazing so I would be rooting more for him and his sister if that sister weren't Clary or if she was different. But either way I am a fan of the pairing ...it actually makes the most sense to me in terms of who a girl would actually be attracted to but in terms of personality ..i guess she and Jace are made to be alike ... they are both boring and stupid etc. etc. but in rare moments Clary has shown she can be like her brother Jonathan and do smart things.


message 28: by [deleted user] (new)

Sarah wrote: "I actually had thought that at the start when they first met like in City of Glass that they could be together... But then he started killing... Especially when he killed Max... But no you are not ..."

Max was an accident, and even if he wasn't ... everyone in this series has killed someone , the rest of the characters are hypocrites and just need to get over it.


message 29: by [deleted user] (new)

MissMorgenstern wrote: "But have you ever questioned why, when Sebastian and the Queen slept together, he took a lock of her red hair and looked at it? He was thinking of Clary, and was probably fantasising about her when..."

Which book did that happen in? lol also i prefer Clary with brown hair and eyes like in the movie... looks much prettier .. especially compared to how awful she looked with red hair in that book trailer.


message 30: by [deleted user] (last edited Aug 11, 2016 03:45PM) (new)

Chelsey wrote: "This is probably the most disturbing thing I've ever read. No offense... I wanted great things for Sebastian, he was my favorite character but everyone freaked out about Jace and Clary and they wer..."


It would not be disgusting or immoral for them to be together..... that's just an idea... a way you have been conditioned to think by generations of idiots. Hypocrites really, considering they will let people do dumb shit these days ... they let two men and two women be together or switch their gender... and you're trying to tell me that this subject in the book is what's wrong? jeez people like you ...which is the majority... are so twisted.


message 31: by [deleted user] (new)

The Bookworm's Reviews wrote: "Isn't it Sebastian? With an a c:"

yeah.


message 32: by [deleted user] (new)

MissMorgenstern wrote: "At first, in City of Lost Souls, I did actually want them to be together. I know incest is sick and twisted, and I know it's wrong and immoral, but I simply couldn't shake the fantasies of Clabasti..."

It's not sick , twisted , or wrong. It's actually the most natural thing in the world. But anyways yes Sebastian/Jonathan was the most amazing character in this book and presented all the characteristics and depth that you would want in a male character in a book ... he's so realistic it pulls you in and he is a sophisticated character unlike all the rest.
Clary was an idiot from the start , she had a brother!! if she ever took the time to realize it but just like her bitch of a mother Jocelyn she was too busy thinking how it could have been what he could have been .... just like so many people on this post ... honestly it reminds me of those bad parents who only have an idea of what their child should be in their minds instead of appreciating who their child really is. What i love about Jonathan is that he didn't change for anyone and wanted people to accept him as he was because he was perfect just the way he was . ...and what i find very deceitful about so many fans of this series is the truth is they probably want someone to love them for who they are and not who people want them to pretend to be yet they hated that aspect in the book, maybe because they did become who others wanted them to be and left who they were behind them.


message 33: by [deleted user] (new)

Lev wrote: "No I love Sebastian and The Seelie Queen perfect couple."

Not at all.... considering not only did he not love her , but he was just using her for her army and her resources... an ally . And I'm glad that's all she was to him ... because he made it very obvious that the only one he ever loved was Clary.


message 34: by [deleted user] (new)

Nicole D. wrote: "Gauri wrote: "As twisted as it sounds, I wanted that too. Especially in book 6 because in someway he made clary seem so special. And let's face it girls dig feeling supremely special."

Yes almost ..."



First of all...i doubt they were referring to the "rape" but i know you people have a stick up your ass about that lol. puns.
But there were many other scenes they were probably referring to ... also that scene with him making advances towards her was literally one of the hottest scenes in this entire book series , I just wish Clary wasn't so hypocritically getting disgusted by him the entire time... she is so full of shit. i cant stand her. Honestly if i was in her position things would have gone a lot better.


message 35: by [deleted user] (new)

MissMorgenstern wrote: "Nicole D. wrote: "Never wanted them to be together.I hated Sebastian plus they can't be together because THEY ARE BROTHER AND SISTER and that is just wrong on so many levels.Next Sebastian is evil ..."

(Valentine was an intelligent and loving yet misunderstood and rash husband)

Jocelyn was a terrible mother and wife
Clary was a terrible sister
Jonathan was the perfect son.

That's what the book should have said on it ... like the cover in small letters before the title. lol.


message 36: by [deleted user] (new)

Nicole D. wrote: "@Gauri
I am sorry I was harsh but rape has always been a sensitive subject with me.2 of my aunts were raped."


Well don't take your fucking emotional problems out on a book and twist characters into your image of a villain or a bad person.


message 37: by [deleted user] (new)

Nicole D. wrote: "Chelsey wrote: "This is probably the most disturbing thing I've ever read. No offense... I wanted great things for Sebastian, he was my favorite character but everyone freaked out about Jace and Cl..."

Man people like you is probably why more people don't speak up about the pairing they liked.... honestly there is nothing wrong with the Jonathan and Clary pairing ... except that Clary pretty much just sucks. Sebastian on the other hand was perfect . But anyways what i find disturbing is how many people who are fans of this series are so full of shit ... like how they rooted for Clary and Jace ... or for two men like Alec and Magnus.... so... yeah....


message 38: by [deleted user] (new)

Gauri wrote: "@missmorgenstern- first of all I like your username. I agree a lot with what you have said in this thread. I also thought jace and clary's relationship didn't have much depth. Jace liked clary from..."

Yes, obviously Jace and Clary's relationship was very weak....... but many of the people reading these books are brainless and blind... too blind to see which characters are strong and contribute to the plot and which ones are there to just look pretty and be all morally righteous when really they are full of shit. I can't stand the majority of fans of these books .


message 39: by [deleted user] (new)

The wrote: "MissMorgenstern wrote: "Gauri wrote: "@missmorgenstern- first of all I like your username. I agree a lot with what you have said in this thread. I also thought jace and clary's relationship didn't ..."

Yes they were opposites.... in real life though opposites don't attract which is why people look for something in common with them. But it's also about whether you have that part of whatever it is inside you that makes you similar to the other person though you try to deny it and struggle with it ... that tension and then letting go of the facade and admitting you are like them and embracing who you are is what makes a book great ... but Clary never had that potential and that depth to her that Sebastian thought she did... but if I was in Clary's position , let's just say their relationship would have gone the way some fans here wanted it to.... after all the tension between them .. mostly from him... and all the glances and the remarks ... it would have come to a mind blowing amazing ending . Honestly if i ever get some people together and find someone i think would portray him well along with others who were interested, i would make a movie of the series or at least the last few books with Sebastian in them... and give it the story and the ending it should have had. :)
And yes, you see that but many people don't see why Sebastian/Jonathan is such a perfect character.. he is realistic , he is understandable... and honestly it seems to me that only someone with a true understanding of people and their actions and emotions, someone who has been through dark times, could appreciate a beautiful character like this.


message 40: by [deleted user] (new)

Nessy wrote: "I never even thought of them together. I always wanted her with Jace. When they said that they were brother and sister in the first book, I was just completely crushed. I asked my sister who had ju..."

ugh! all you people and your obsession with "normal"
Sebastian was extraordinary!!


message 41: by [deleted user] (new)

No , i wanted them to be together too... But only if Clary improved as a character , then i would really love seeing them together .


message 42: by [deleted user] (new)

MissMorgenstern wrote: "But have you ever questioned why, when Sebastian and the Queen slept together, he took a lock of her red hair and looked at it? He was thinking of Clary, and was probably fantasising about her when..."

She could have easily had both , a brother and a lover/husband which is pretty much what he seemed to want with her... they cared about each other as siblings but they also liked each other as much more. They would have made a very interesting pair.


message 43: by Nora (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nora Davis Chelsey wrote: "This is probably the most disturbing thing I've ever read. No offense... I wanted great things for Sebastian, he was my favorite character but everyone freaked out about Jace and Clary and they wer..."

I totally agree! I was actually for sebastian, jace and clary being a super team instead! I loved them fighting together!


message 44: by L (new) - rated it 5 stars

L O Nora wrote: "Chelsey wrote: "This is probably the most disturbing thing I've ever read. No offense... I wanted great things for Sebastian, he was my favorite character but everyone freaked out about Jace and Cl..."

Nora! I love your perspective!


Vanna I mean, kinda.

I wanted the drama between them to go farther than it did. We saw that with Jace and Clary when we thought they were siblings, but Sebastian was almost instantly viewed as the new villain. I kinda expected more obsession from him. Or him wanting someone else like Izzy. I wouldn't had minded Izzy and Seb.


Magnus Castro I wanted them to be together at first because they met RIGHT after Clary caught Jace with another girl. Even though they weren't even dating yet, it made even me feel betrayed. So, I was just egging Clary on to get with Sebastian for awhile and leave Jace because Herondales are MESSES but how can you hate them?


message 47: by [deleted user] (new)

NO


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