Support for Indie Authors discussion
Marketing Tactics
>
Am I doing something wrong?
Mod
I know... I know... I shouldn't have gone there, but it was too tempting.
Mod
Happens to me once in a while, too.
If you give your book to a family member or a good friend, and then they don't read it, it shows they are not very interested in who you really are (even if it's not their genre). If they read it and then never comment on it to you, they have no class.
wELL, MY FRIENDS, LITERATURE´S WORLD IS HARD
Dennis, I take issue with your statements. If your family or good friends don't read much or like that genre, why are you forcing them into reading it? Ask before you give them a book if they are interested and don't be upset if the aren't. Don't expect family and friends to be honest or even like what you did if they don't read or like the genre you write in. It doesn't mean they have no class. It means you were pushing them to do something they didn't want to do.
Hi B.A.,I don't think anyone here is envisioning a situation where you push your book onto someone and say, "Here, read this and tell me what you think." But a family member (one who can read and does read books at least occasionally) who would not be curious enough (and supportive) and happy to take the opportunity to read a book of yours - they have made it quite clear that they have little interest in your inner life at all. And if a friend shows interest in reading it, but then never mentions it again, I'll repeat - they have no class. A true friend would have a conversation with you about it, even if it wasn't their cup of tea. I'm sure you still disagree, and that has to be because we have different standards of acceptable comportment on the part of family and friends. Not uncommon!
Mod
I take issue with your statements."
Keep in mind Dennis's statements are his and his alone. There may be few who view life this way, but I would guess it's very few.
Personally, my relationships are built on stronger, better stuff than my books. I am not my books, they are a part of me. I have told family members not to buy my work as I know they would not enjoy it. Even my wife hasn't read everything I write and she's probably my biggest fan. I didn't marry her to have an instant reader or an instant sounding board for my writing. I married her for much deeper reasons.
Mod
Putting aside the fact that my family can't speak English, even if I wrote it in my native language, I'd probably still need to explain some things that are, for a fantasy reader, quite basic knowledge and there would still be a chance they'd not grasp something and for that reason maybe even fail to grasp important plot element correctly.
Dan wrote: "I have tried what I have heard and known..."Everyone's experience is different. Some things work fine for larger markets (like the US) but over in the UK they're a non-starter (eg AMS ads).
Way back, John Grisham got great local support for his writing ambitions and his first novel: family and friends local media - he worked them tirelessy, and ultimately got his reward.
To break through you have to find the pressure points that yield and work them consistently. Success isn't overnight.
Where I live there are no in-town book shops (this is critical to even get on the map); libraries have no interest (50% of them were axed a couple of years back); local radio shows no interest; the local newspaper is cut to the bone so even if I get my story in the press, the article doesn't go online and with no bookshop to front up my books, they remain invisible... My means are very limited so I have had to put off ads and be creative.
The only place I get traction is writing groups - there are all kinds out there but find the right one and you get feedback on your progress... exercises to test and advance your craft and an opportunity to chew the fat with like-minded people at different stages. Groups near me don't do my genre takes (SF / Fantasy / Fiction) so I have had to be creative, bending genres to write and deliver something that a) interests me and b) is tolerable to the group. Outside of this I critique other works; as a bit of traditionalist I also dig into other stuff (writing theory being the most popular by a long distance).
Find what works for you, apply consistent pressure and keep writing.
I agree with Terence about the importance of writing groups. I belong to two of them (I live in different places, depending on the time of year) and have found them extraordinarily helpful for creative feedback and morale boosting. I basically use these writing groups as my editor. I've found that as you read your work to a group of other serious indie writers, the fundamental problems or issues will surface. At some point, you will realize, this isn't working and I need to try another approach. And, of course, it's comforting to be able to discuss your writing, marketing or publishing issues with people in the same boat -- much like these Goodreads groups.I also agree with what Dwayne and B.A. say about the unwisdom of encouraging (or pressuring) your family and friends to read your books. In my experience, you can only go to that well once, if at all. People have so many other demands on their attention. You can damage relationships by pressuring them to spend hours reading something that just doesn't resonate with them. It's like asking friends to burst into applause when you enter the room. I think its best to just let friends and family know what you're doing. If somebody takes the initiative to read your work, fine. But also fine if they don't. Relationships, as Dwayne says, should be built on stronger foundations.
Maybe this is a little offtopic, but I will say this about friends and families. While you can't make your friends and family read and promote you, I think it is a shame we live in a culture where families don't rally together to help individual family members in order promote the well-being of the entire family. I've seen it where the whole family dumps all their resources into the success of one family member, who then boosts the rest of the family. It seems that we live in a culture of every man for himself even at home. It's kind of sad. But what can you do?
Ugh, come on, people. There ARE people out there that are interested in what you write, but you can't expect them to conveniently be in your family!Nobody in my family is interested in romance novels, erotica, paranormal or comedy (what I write) but they all love mysteries. Worse, they are hyper-critical, a tendency I have sadly inherited. So I say, keep reading your Agatha Christie for the umpteenth time. I don't even want them to know I write about characters doing oral sex and stuff, vividly detailed. They'd most likely kill my inspiration anyway.
Mod
You bet. I don't even want to know how would it feel coming out for authors who do non-mainstream erotica (BDSM, M/M, F/F, etc.)But at the end of the day, people who really care for you will have to accept you as who you are.
I've given free copies to family & friends and hear nothing back from them. I choose to think it's because it's not their cup of tea.I think someone needs to analyze this as it's a common thing. If we have self-published a paperback then there's a strong desire to give copies away to friends and family but we get very little, if any, feedback. My own impression is that they feel embarrassed by the thought of telling you, honestly, what they think. My best responses have come from ex-colleagues.
Mod
I probably mentioned it before: I am into fantasy (with some interest in SF). Father is occasional SF reader (though he prefers movies the last few years) and mother, in the time I remember her reading, was reading something I'd guess to be most likely historical fiction. My sister does not read at all, just watching series on TV. Letting them read my fantasy work would be ... counterproductive.
As for my classmates at uni, I admit I don't really know much about their preferences. I know one girl is into fantasy but I don't know if her English is good enough for reading my work even if she was interested (I am probably insane writing in my second language).
I have sisters who are extremely supportive of women's issues, and women's achievement. However, they were not interested in reading my books or giving reviews. On the other hand, I receive books from excellent writers which are just not interesting to me, and I am hard-pressed to read them. So, go figure.
Margret wrote: "Crap, I can't even get my own family and friends to read and share my links. It's humiliating. My own stepmother promotes for a famous author for free and would never even admit to her friends that..."Hi Margaret! You are not a 'complete loser'! In fact, very few people have written a book, or have any idea how to write one! Amazon is not a bad move. It has a gajillion books to sell. The key to Amazon is reviews. If you can acquire some good reviews, Amazon begins to sell your book, because they sell what people want. So, your books may simply not be purchased because no one knows they are out there - sans reviews!
I am probably insane writing in my second languageConrad did!
Mod
#WeirdMorningThoughts
I think friends and family are perhaps not the target market that you are wanting to promote your book to, regardless of the feedback. They want to support you, which means at worst they give you a review that is overly supportive, and at worst that they don't want to review and hurt your feelings. Unless you have a cut-throat friend/s who is prepared to be blunt, you need to send your book to review with reviewers in your genre. There are plenty out there, just see who you can find. And good luck - being an author requires tough skin and a strong sense of humour.
Tomas wrote: "I am probably insane writing in my second language..."Not at all. I did too. Ok, I've been in the US for 18 years now but I still make many mistakes with conjunctions and prepositions. I've noticed many English born people have problems too so... anyway, this is why I ended up hiring an editor. You can do the same...no need to pay thousands. of dollars either. Good luck. :)
V.K. wrote: "They want to support you, which means at worst they give you a review that is overly supportive, and at worst that they don't want to review and hurt your feelings."Keep in mind that friends and family reviews are against Amazon's TOC . Yes, they can easily figure out who has ties to who and no, they aren't monitoring your social media per the rumors past. Sometimes it's simply a matter of noticing that the account who gave you a too glowing review also sent you a package and signed it from great aunt Tilie.
But legalities aside, this really shouldn't be a topic that is even up for debate. Support doesn't mean your friends and family have to be your audience or marketing team. It just means that they're there to encourage you and tell you 'good job', but seriously, you shouldn't even rely on that.
A fun thread to read......the central challenge for writers after they’ve created their work is getting someone, please God, anyone to read it.
Regardless of whether family/friends do or don't like our work, probably most authors want to reach readers beyond their own small tribe.
To that end, putting together some sort of marketing plan is helpful (doesn't have to be long!). For most indie writers, no one tactic will be terribly effective at promoting a book (even if it's really well written and edited with a fantastic cover), but the sum total of lots of incremental successes (book signings/readings, cool websites, credible reviews, clever advertising, judicious sales, etc) might just work to boost reader awareness given time. A marketing plan can help organize this effort.
Felix, aren't books in progress like Schrödinger's cat? Because you don't know whether they are to get a life of their own or be forgotten until they're out and same with whether they are good or bad?I think what you are saying is - a book is neither good nor bad until it's out there to be assessed by an observer (a reader) - which would be in accordance with The Copenhagen Interpretation.
PS - I am Schrodinger's Cat.
Debut self published author here. I have come to terms with the fact that until I have three or more books in the series, I'm wasting my time advertising. I've read through the earlier posts, and I want to add that there is nothing wrong with wanting or expecting a return on your investment of your time and soul. It doesn't mean you're writing for the "wrong reasons." I love to write, and I will equally love making money off of my writing when it happens (and I'm putting it out into the universe that it will).
I won't say I'll never do something, like put my book for free or 99 cents. I will say that when I do, I will have a market strategy in place to capture all the full price paid sells of the next books in the series. After all the research I've done, that seems to be the way to go, short of black magic.
P.J., I feel the same regarding the first sentences. And for someone as impatient as I, having to wait is killing me (I only have one book out!) I write 100,000 words novels so I can't see that happening before the end of the year! And as for the economic rewards, pen, paper, electricity and electronic gadgets, Internet connection and all the other expenditures need to come from somewhere. Nobody is being greedy by asking that you don't need to work an awful job for them!
And to everyone: I used to be a doctor. I was in practice for eleven years (I quitted this year). Thanks to that, I can pretty much imagine becoming an author is gonna be the same.
I remember a wonderful ad the year I graduated. It asked for a doctor of my specialty to move to a part of the country I really wanted to go. It offered free housing and a decent salary. So I applied, adding that I was ready to move there whenever. I got no reply. The ad was reposted a fortnight later. I reapplied, and got a very confusing reply (something about my petition being sent to an employment agency--insert a million '?'s here). So I was the perfect candidate, graduated from the best college in my continent, so I can imagine the reason for the rejection was ONLY the lack of experience.
Fast forward nine years...
Asked for a job from another ad. "How long ago did you graduate?" "Nine years ago." I was given the job in a silver platter. My patients there loved me, and when I quitted there almost was rioting in the streets. One of the comments I would often get was "You're such a wonderful doctor! It shows your great dedication and experience." No sir, I was the same when I graduated. The very same. A little bit less skills, maybe. But I would have treated you the very same back then.
So, bottom line...
P.S.: English is not my mother language either. For reference, I know a lot of non-natives that speak and write better than natives (I'm not including myself here)
Mod
That is one of the things I mess up the most, especially when I am trying to hammer my ideas out during a creative surge. I admit that I sometimes just take a shot at what might be the right one (all hail Grammarly for being able to point them out).
Three weeks ago, I decided that I'll try to do a bit of work (which was supposed to be THINKING, not WRITING) on the beginning of #3 just to have more of the trilogy's continuity at least somewhat firmly in my head before I dive into the hopefully last pre-beta revision of #1 (ETA: 21.7.2018, three year anniversary since I started writing).
What actually happened? As of this moment, I hammered out (maybe literally) 70000 words (in words: seventy friggin' thousand)! In other words, probably well around a third of the book if it is to be roughly the same length as #1 and #2.
Now, to the point. I exported it as PDF just so I can scroll up and down should I look back, without actually scrolling through the document. I think that I can open it at random place and find some far too obvious typo my pushed-to-overdrive fingers made and that's not counting messed up preposition, unbelievable typos, screwed out sentence structure or comma use I'll discover during the second draft.
Jenn wrote: "I too am struggling; But despite the fact that I do, I keep going and remain positive. I am still writing, both with my blogs and for other social media, as well as future eBooks. Don't ever give u..."This is a great thing to do as a lot of authors can get discouraged after awhile when their work is over looked after they've worked so hard on it. It's important to keep a positive attitude, otherwise you lose the focus on the big picture and miss out on the joyous part of it all, writing.
Tomas: That's completely normal. Now, if you said you got it all word perfect, now I wouldn't believe you :)
Mod
That irks me... a lot!
Ewe people complaining about yore spellcheck ken jest turn it of.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, kind of thing. I've just finished a book and have notified all those on FB in three groups I think would be interested in it. It's on preorder for a couple of weeks. I got some responses saying how much they liked my add notice but went to have a look at the preorder stats - non, so far, have ordered the book, although one or two said they'd definitely look forward reading it, so it'll be interesting to see how many preorder it. But with so many self-pubbing, comptetition is hard.
We are very small fish - in a very large pond.
Keep writing everyone... I know it sounds weird, but I needed to read this thread today. Indie publishing is hard. I feel alone in this vast world of publishing. On top of that, I am a poet, so you can guess how hard it is to get people to read my books. All I can really say is that you are not alone...
Great topic, it's comforting to see I am not the only one that is feeling the frustration of the seeming fight against all odds. It's funny because my debut book is a self help about the power of beliefs. I feel discouraged at times but every once in a while something positive happens and I run with that. It seems like everybody that wants to help also charges are fee. Beware of those who prey upon our desperation! I keep learning expensive lessons.The key is to believe in your book and yourself. I truly believe that God is shining God's light to the world through my book. Because I believe this there is no failure and I can overcome all the obstacles raining down in sheets.
BTW - A friend and I starting experimenting with google ads and in the last 5 days I spent $70 and have sold more books than the $20,000 I gave to westbow press marketing services 5 mths ago. We need to trust ourselves more and quit listening to the so call expensive experts!!!!
David wrote: "Great topic, it's comforting to see I am not the only one that is feeling the frustration of the seeming fight against all odds. It's funny because my debut book is a self help about the power of b..."How do you go about doing google ads? Can you direct me to a tutorial on it?
Mod
David wrote: "Great topic, it's comforting to see I am not the only one that is feeling the frustration of the seeming fight against all odds. It's funny because my debut book is a self help about the power of b..."Yes, David, I have often said that much more money is made by those offering author "services" than is made by the authors themselves. And most of it is a complete waste and ripoff.
Dennis wrote: "David wrote: "Great topic, it's comforting to see I am not the only one that is feeling the frustration of the seeming fight against all odds. It's funny because my debut book is a self help about ..."
It is comforting indeed. I can't seem to write and market at the same time. There is one person out there, Mark Dawson, who offers courses on marketing one's books. I've looked at MANY of these folks, and he's the only one I've found who seems to be truly helpful. His courses are not cheap. But they're worth it.
It is comforting indeed. I can't seem to write and market at the same time. There is one person out there, Mark Dawson, who offers courses on marketing one's books. I've looked at MANY of these folks, and he's the only one I've found who seems to be truly helpful. His courses are not cheap. But they're worth it.
The best $25 or so that you can spend is to buy a copy of John Kremer's "1001 Ways to Market Your Books, 6th Edition." It is a resource beyond belief. Even if you only take one promising idea away from it, it will pay for itself many-fold.
Dennis wrote: "The best $25 or so that you can spend is to buy a copy of John Kremer's "!001 Ways to Market Your Books, 6th Edition." It is a resource beyond belief. Even if you only take one promising idea away ..."
Thank you, Dennis. I'll look for a copy!
Thank you, Dennis. I'll look for a copy!
Christina wrote: "This topic is pretty broad and has been approached over and over again. I would suggest reading through past posts to get some ideas of what others have done, but keep in mind that success in this ..."Dan:
While I don't mean to throw shade at Christina, and I agree with some of the things she said, (your question was a little broad, but I'll work with it anyway.) I think it would encourage you to hear that the writing business is more than just pure luck. There is a lot of skill involved.
Your situation puts me in a good place because I happen to have a lot of knowledge in this field: marketing. I want to assure you that I have done my research - otherwise, I wouldn't try to help, because my word would be of no use.
Since you have a Goodreads account, your already doing some things right. I suggest taking to your social media and actively promoting your book, whether by limited-time deals or by free giveaways or drawings. There's one going on right now for a book called The Sun They Called the Moon. The author is giving away 100 coppies!
I think you'll find that no one can resist a good deal, or even some free books, especially book lovers. And though you won't be making any money from giving away books free-of-charge, you'll be spreading word of your title to people who otherwise wouldn't have cared. Maybe even ask you winners to give a review on the selling sight (Amazon?), or have them suggest it to their friends.
If you have a Youtube account, try booktubing. Even if you don't have much of an audience now, you learn how to make good quality videos and gain popularity in a matter of months. At that point you can start promoting your book on your channel. I know this sounds like a bit of a long game, but trust me, the harder you try, the better the results will be.
I think you're on the right track with the podcast idea, but you may want to try some of the more popular ones, especailly ones related to books and reading.
Another thing you can try is shipping complementary copies of your book to famous booktubers and reviewers, such as thebookowl or jessethereader. This should give your book a lot of momentum.
Remember, when it comes to advertising, there is a lot of skill required, but these are a few tips to help you get started. If you really want to commit yourself to selling this book, do some research for other methods of advertising. And mention your book by name at every chance you get (including this post, go ahead and edit it :)
Tip: When promoting your book on on social media, use trending hashtags, and lots of them. The more you use, the more people will see it.
Mr. Blue
I published with covenant books and they dictated the price. $14.99 for paperback and 9.99 for kindle. I have no choice in the price until my contract ends in 2 years. When I looked at all the other books they were priced way below mine. I think that is one reason why my book isn't selling
Hey Dennis, you'll want to unlink that address. Not just because of the no link policy,but also because the more we mention these types of publishers, the more likely they are to show up and defend themselves.
Christina wrote: "Hey Dennis, you'll want to unlink that address. Not just because of the no link policy,but also because the more we mention these types of publishers, the more likely they are to show up and defend..."I'll just let it drop, Christina. I occasionally try to bring a dose of reality to these forums, because I hate what the rip-off artists do to so many naïve authors, but on the other hand one would think that people would do a little more research before they waste their time, hopes, and money. But so many don't.
Margret wrote: "Crap, I can't even get my own family and friends to read and share my links. It's humiliating. My own stepmother promotes for a famous author for free and would never even admit to her friends that..."
I have to say I read these forums for inspiration and yours choked me up. I'm teary now. I'm in the same boat. One phrase I heard somewhere along the line was "You don't write a book to make money, you write a book to make conversation." I'm a Child development major and I write preschool and just completed a YA set. My inner giggle is "The kids in her story seem so old." They're 10, and thats what 10 years olds say and do, especially since theyre about me and my best friend and I remember those days clear as a bell. I don't have anyone giving me a pick me up except my mom... so just remember we write because we are artists, we have an inner story and a yearning to channel it. Write write write! We aren't marketers. I just blew through a sh*t ton of money I didn't have signing up for promotions, in hopes to get my YA series out there... but you know what? The odds are against us. The market is saturated. I came to terms this is my hobby, my joy, and I have enough kids in my life that read my books. I am a hair dresser and I give them to the kids, one mom told me "My son won't get out of bed every day unless we read your damn spider book!" THAT alone is why we do it. I just want kids to smile. Write for you and don't give up. They don't need to be best sellers. One day, someone will surprise you and say I loved your book! You'll see!
I have to say I read these forums for inspiration and yours choked me up. I'm teary now. I'm in the same boat. One phrase I heard somewhere along the line was "You don't write a book to make money, you write a book to make conversation." I'm a Child development major and I write preschool and just completed a YA set. My inner giggle is "The kids in her story seem so old." They're 10, and thats what 10 years olds say and do, especially since theyre about me and my best friend and I remember those days clear as a bell. I don't have anyone giving me a pick me up except my mom... so just remember we write because we are artists, we have an inner story and a yearning to channel it. Write write write! We aren't marketers. I just blew through a sh*t ton of money I didn't have signing up for promotions, in hopes to get my YA series out there... but you know what? The odds are against us. The market is saturated. I came to terms this is my hobby, my joy, and I have enough kids in my life that read my books. I am a hair dresser and I give them to the kids, one mom told me "My son won't get out of bed every day unless we read your damn spider book!" THAT alone is why we do it. I just want kids to smile. Write for you and don't give up. They don't need to be best sellers. One day, someone will surprise you and say I loved your book! You'll see!
Stephen King doesn't write like Danielle Steele doesn't write like John Grisham doesn't write like Margaret Atwood... books can be fiction, non-fiction, filled with pictures, have no pictures, be six pages long or maybe over a thousand, be a best-seller or a debut novel by an Indie author. If there are two books of the same genre or on the same topic, side by side, with the same number of pages, the style being relatively similar, the plot and characters being similar and so on, yes, I could see how the guy who gives his book away might be devaluing the book of the guy who charges $9.99. My offering a free short story now and again won't have any affect on the guy selling a book on medieval weaponry.