A Dance with Dragons
discussion
Sort of a girls only question...
The reason I'm asking is because I wonder if GRRM is a feminist and I've been reading the books wrong.
Moontea is a form of birth control. Both my dtepdaughters have been on birth control for years now. One has been having sex for a few years by now, the other, who knows? As I understand it, birth control is a "just in case" preventive, not necessarily indicative of sexual activity.
Right, I'm just wondering if GRRM is actually putting this in as a nod to the fact that birth control for many young girls is more of a "period control" drug. And if so, I think he's being really progressive and awesome.
So.......... My post just was eaten so I have to rewrite. As a doctor myself, I can say this: For women (or girls) who are not having any sexual activity, there are hormonal options for the control of the period, which have no contraceptive effect. The reason why ob-gyn docs usually give contraceptives is the contraceptive effect, because you really never know when sexual activity is going to start or happen, and it's not like you can start taking the pill today and you are protected tomorrow (which is good, by my book).In the books, I have seen moontea only used as contraceptive, but the truth is that no Maester has really explained exactly what it is and/or if it does anything else. Is it hormonal? Is it micro-abortive? We don't know. GRRM described Sansa having pain and a lot of bleeding during her first period, but nobody thought of giving her moontea to have it easier. Now, if that was because she was just a hostage or if that was because moontea can't help you with that, we don't know.
On the other hand......... Margery asked Pycelle for the moontea, but there's no evidence in the text that it was for her. She was always in a bunch of girls. Cersei herself acknowledges that the presence or absence of her "maidenheed" means nothing, because she must have ridden horses and hymen can break.
Keep in mind that, progressive as GRRM may have been, his setting is not. He is showing us a totally "retro" world, where I am even surprised to see that women had some sort of contraceptive whatsoever. I would bet that "period control" would be completely unrealistic in this [misogynistic] world and moontea, whatever it is, is already progressive with the little that we know.
Now, the fact that GRRM shows us a terrible, violent, misogynistic world doesn't mean that he's doing an apology of this world or stating that it's the right way to go. On the contrary, there is a very strong message against all that.
Laura, good to know, and it's cool to know that you are a doctor along with a brilliant photoshop artist!
Perhaps mad scientist would have been a better description, but well...
I thought the mention of Margery asking Pycelle for moontea was a lie. Pycelle is one of Cersei's pawns. But then I can't remember the context in which he said she asked for it. If he told Cersei, there's no reason to lie. If he told others, he was probably lying for Cersei.I don't think GRRM's inclusion of moontea as a contraceptive is progressive at all. I think it's just a plot devise to allow women like Cersei or Asha to be promiscuous and stay in the game.
I also don't think Margery needs moontea. If she really asked for it, she probably asked for one of her friends. She knows as well as Cersei does how easily she can be destroyed by having sex with someone other than her husband. Unlike Cersei, I don't think she's arrogant enough to think she can get away with it.
Julia wrote: "I thought the mention of Margery asking Pycelle for moontea was a lie. Pycelle is one of Cersei's pawns. But then I can't remember the context in which he said she asked for it. If he told Cersei,..."Pycelle was talking to Cersei. He was saying for what, and Cersei interrupted like "I know what it's for". Women in old times also knew of certain herbs that worked as micro-abortive or abortive. There were also herbs that kind of worked like contraceptives, so this is not entirely fantasy from GRRM's part. Of course, they weren't all that effective.
Google "Pennyroyal." Medieval women would drink this in a tea to cause a miscarriage. Of course many would get sick and/or die from it, but that was often their only option.
Blue cohosh, ginseng, licorice root and pennyroyal are the likely ingredients of 'moon tea'. The primitive ancestor of misoprostal.
No other book could raise this kind of conversation. Awesome. Shows how richly detailed the books are.
Oh, and to contribute to Tyrion's immunity to herpes, GRRM is a man and thus the concept of men contracting STDS doesn't exist in his universe. ::grin::
Brooklyn wrote: "Google "Pennyroyal." Medieval women would drink this in a tea to cause a miscarriage. Of course many would get sick and/or die from it, but that was often their only option."Lyrics to Pennyroyal Tea by Nirvana:
"Pennyroyal Tea"
I'm on my time with everyone
I have very bad posture
Sit and drink Pennyroyal Tea
Distill the life that's inside of me
Sit and drink Pennyroyal Tea
I'm anemic royalty
Give me a Leonard Cohen afterworld
So I can sigh eternally
I'm so tired I can't sleep
I'm a liar and a thief
Sit and drink Pennyroyal Tea
I'm anemic royalty
I'm on warm milk and laxatives
Cherry-flavored antacids
Sit and drink Pennyroyal Tea
Distill the life that's inside of me
Sit and drink Pennyroyal Tea
I'm anemic royalty
Quotes from the books:
Lysa to Littlefinger: "I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal."
*
Afterward, Asha had the sense to find a woods witch, who showed her how to brew moon tea to keep her belly flat.
*
Women only drank moon tea for one reason; maidens had no need for it at all. "My son has been betrayed. Margery has a lover. That is high treason, punishable by death."
Moon tea is mentioned only as being used as a contraceptive, not as an remedy to ease the cramps of a menstrual cycle.
I had wondered if Margery was using it to keep regular. I mean these girls are all expected to get married and produce children at the ripe old age of 14. So maybe much like today's American teen, her periods are intense and unlike today's teen she has no birth control pill to keep her regular or to lessen the pain and swelling. IDK. Just throwing and idea around.
Annemarie wrote: "So let's assume that Margery was actually drinking Moontea once a month. We are either left with the impression that this chick has a lot of sex, or she's using it as a means to ease the blow of a ..." I was hoping for some Margery chapters in ADWD. It would be interesting to finally see this story arc from her perspective
@Ray - agreed. I really want to hear something from her voice. Particularly about how she was not held captive by the church and what she may have been able to accomplish while Cersei was in custody. (or at least how happy she was to watch Cersei's walk)
As a dude, I'm going to chime in. I thought that there was 2 options here: 1. Pycelle was lying to Cersei because he knew she wanted something against Margery. Pycelle has long been a Lannister crony. We also know he's also not a meek bumbling Maester from Tyrion's attempt to get him off the council, but a skilled player. Cersei is bats*** crazy in her chapters here so her perceptions of how Pycelle is hesitant to tell her are obviously circumspect. Also, why would Margery not be going to her own Maester, who is in King's Landing for something like this? It just seems silly.
2. It was being used to moderate her moonblood.
3. The third option that she was using it in an attempt to hide her pregnancy is so out there that that is just weird. Everyone accepts her claims to never have consummated with Renly but then suddenly she needs Moontea on a regular basis? That is more of everyone playing to Cersei's absurd paranoia than likely to be true.
4. She was getting it to moderate some of her handmaids' misadventures. This also seems silly.
I'm also of the theory that Pycelle was lying for Cersei's sake. It wouldn't be the first time.Especially given the fact that moontea did indeed contain pennyroyal.
Lysa to Littlefinger: "I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal."
There is no way moontea was used to regulate menses. As far as I know, until modern medicine, the only options were willowbark and laudanum. Bed rest was really the most common treatment... for the rich.
Pennyroyal was a dangerous poison that was ONLY used as an abortificant. Hence why Lysa only needed a drop. If anyone was drinking it monthly, they'd be dead in no time.
They call it moontea because it BRINGS the moonblood (miscarriage), not becuase it would ease it.
Curious, but from the Lysa to Littlefinger quote, I interpreted that moontea doesn't have pennyroyal normally, but that it was added to Lysa's moontea (with the tansy and mind and wormwood and honey...) for abortive effects.As I see it, moontea by itself is just like a hormonal contraceptive, and can be used as most hormonal contraceptives from our real nowadays, which includes the "morning after pill" (Asha thinks that she will need to drink some right after having sex with a guy). However, adding pennyroyal and other stuff meant that Lysa was already pregnant, so she needed stronger stuff, a truly abortive substance.
From that point of view (excuse the doctor in me), it is not impossible that moontea could have been used to regulate cycles, but it's VERY unlikely. There was a stigma in maiden ladies requiring moontea, in the same way that some people still go tong-in-cheek when a young girl takes contraceptive pills.
I'd even think that girls have no clue that the same moontea that helps them "keep their belly flat" can help them with their cycles' irregularities. I'd doubt even maesters from the Citadel know this, being an issue about making women comfortable about something that's inherent to their being women.
infael wrote: "Moontea is a form of birth control. Both my dtepdaughters have been on birth control for years now. One has been having sex for a few years by now, the other, who knows? As I understand it, birth c..."My daughter was put on birth control to ease her pms symptoms
Margery struck me as one who slept around
Jeanine wrote: "Margery struck me as one who slept around"Probably the Margaery from the show. We truly know next to nothing about the Margaery from the books (other than what Cersei says, which isn't much, and the seven gods know she's strongly biased), who is also like a decade younger than her TV counterpart.
A wink: there are hormonal pills that are not contraceptive, which can work just as fine for cycle regulation. Most doctors prescribe contraceptives just to be on the safe side, which is not at all bad.
Now how are you going to assume that all boys will naturally get squeamish by this question? Okay, I did, but it's a GOT theory and I can't resist such things! Supposing Margaery was just trying to control her... ulp!... monthlies with Moon Tea, that would mean that she is in fact NOT having illicit sex within the Keep and making a cuckold of Tommen, yes?And it would also mean she has a defense if and when the Sept chooses to have a trial and she is able to answer the charges. But I am surprised she would not have offered this as a defense sooner, like when she was first taken in by the Grand Septon and accused of adultery.
Also, I wasn't aware Moon Tea could be used for this purpose, a la modern-day birth control. I would think it would cause a more heavy... you know what!
Silja wrote: "I think she got it for some of her maids. I believe she has lost her virginity to Renly but they only did it once."
Renly? Her homosexual husband? What makes you think she lost it to him? The strongly-implied narrative is that that marriage was never consummated. But of course, I could see why they'd want to keep that a secret, since it would open the way for a marriage between her and Joffrey later.
Silja wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Silja wrote: "I think she got it for some of her maids. I believe she has lost her virginity to Renly but they only did it once."
Renly? Her homosexual husband? What makes you thi..."
True, he still could have brought himself to do the deed. Gay men who live in criminally intolerant societies are forced to do it everyday. But very little info was given on that front, both in terms of Margaery and Renly's marriage, and the alleged relationship between Renly and Ser Loras. Was there any indication that she was deflowered by him? Because if there's one thing they've pimped the hell out of in the show, it's Margaery's level of experience when it comes to matters carnal.
Matthew wrote: "Silja wrote: "I think she got it for some of her maids. I believe she has lost her virginity to Renly but they only did it once."
Renly? Her homosexual husband? What makes you think she lost it t..."
It's not outside expectation that Renly, while a homosexual, would have sex with his wife to produce an heir.
Annemarie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Silja wrote: "I think she got it for some of her maids. I believe she has lost her virginity to Renly but they only did it once."
Renly? Her homosexual husband? What makes you thi..."
Oh yeah, we certainly agree on this. Hell, in medieval culture, such a thing happened ten times a day. I do however lament that there's so little to go on so that damn near impossible to know. For instance, Margaery and her family arranged her marriage to Joffrey under what I assume was the condition that she was still a virgin.
But of course, this could easily be a lie since this is exactly what they would want the Lannisters to believe in order to make the alliance happen. And the Lannisters, being in need of them as allies, would be all too willing to accept it. It would have helped though if there had been whispers that they did in fact consummate. Didn't Cersei or someone say that Renly was a fool for not consummating when he had the chance?
One thing though, re: my earlier question. Would Moon Tea really help regulate... you know... as opposed to taking hormones today? Wouldn't it make for a much more messy... you know...? Have I been sufficiently guyish here? ;)
LOL I don't know what you mean by the "you know"s... Periods? Pregnancies? Libido? Sex?According to the text, the effects of Moon Tea could be very similar to our modern hormones, and pimped up with other (stronger) herbs could help a miscarriage. That means that, in the right dose, it could regulate the cycle. However, I seriously doubt there was such knowledge or even concern. Not many decades ago, girls who had irregular cycles and painful periods were told to just take a painkiller and suffer it.
Laura wrote: "LOL I don't know what you mean by the "you know"s... Periods? Pregnancies? Libido? Sex?According to the text, the effects of Moon Tea could be very similar to our modern hormones, and pimped up w..."
You know... the issue of flow? Yeah, you know what I mean, please don't make me spell it out. It's hard enough for me to be in here as it is ;)
Matthew wrote: "Laura wrote: "LOL I don't know what you mean by the "you know"s... Periods? Pregnancies? Libido? Sex?According to the text, the effects of Moon Tea could be very similar to our modern hormones, a..."
That's what I thought the moontea was for actually, regulating the flow and intensity of her menstrual blood. It's less awkward when you are just blunt, but you are a guy, I get it. I don't want to talk about penises so fair is fair. :)
I don't understand why so many people seem intent on arguing that Margaery is a virgin. Does the thought of a 16-year-old who acts on her sexual urges actually bother you that much?
Yael wrote: "I don't understand why so many people seem intent on arguing that Margaery is a virgin. Does the thought of a 16-year-old who acts on her sexual urges actually bother you that much?"Well, we were actually discussing the uses of moontea, but it's obvious that we have no information to say whether Margaery was a virgin or not. We have Cersei claiming that she wasn't and herself claiming that she was. Nobody in this thread seems actually bothered by the thought, but there's no evidence about it in the books.
I think you are projecting. None of us are 'bothered' by it. But when discussing Maegaery's use of moontea, it's kinda, sorta impossible not to bring this up, you know.
An author like GRRM wouldn't throw in a big hint like "moon tea" and then turn around and say "oh, haha, she's just taking it for cramps." Plus, if it could be used for that purpose, I'm sure other characters (ie, Cersei) would already known that.
What, would you say the same thing if we were talking about who Jon Snow's mommy is? That unsolved puzzle invovles sex too with underage girls too. "
Jon Snow's mother might have potential plot ramifications. Plus, the books have all but put a giant flashing neon sign saying "Jon Snow's mother's identity is important."
Annemarie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Laura wrote: "LOL I don't know what you mean by the "you know"s... Periods? Pregnancies? Libido? Sex?According to the text, the effects of Moon Tea could be very similar to our mo..."
Me neither! I mean, I know I have one and all, but talking about it is the last thing I like to do. If I did, other guys might start talking about theirs, and then there's no end to the amount of dicks in the conversation! ;)
Yael wrote: "I think you are projecting. None of us are 'bothered' by it. But when discussing Maegaery's use of moontea, it's kinda, sorta impossible not to bring this up, you know.
An author like GRRM wouldn..."
Actually, whether or not Margaery is a virgin has plenty of plot implications. For one, it would mean the Tyrell-Lannister alliance would be nullified since Cersei would forbid that Tommen be married to a woman who wasn't a virgin. And GRRM's intent in introducing this is not something we're privy to, so assumptions at this point seem a bit overreaching.
But I think the real question is, why do YOU have such a problem with people arguing that Margaery might be a virgin? Why do you assume its because they don't like the idea that she isn't? Can't people entertain theories that run against the mainstream theory?
Matthew wrote: "Actually, whether or not Margaery is a virgin has plenty of plot implications. For one, it would mean the Tyrell-Lannister alliance would be nullified since Cersei would forbid that Tommen be married to a woman who wasn't a virgin."That doesn't so much hinge on whether or not she really is a virgin--it hinges on whether or not people believe she is.
Plus, there are many more plot repercussions if she really isn't a virgin. The person (or people) she had sex with might very well become another minor "player". Whereas if she's having cramps, there's not much the book can do with that plot-wise.
But I think the real question is, why do YOU have such a problem with people arguing that Margaery might be a virgin? Why do you assume its because they don't like the idea that she isn't? Can't people entertain theories that run against the mainstream theory?
From what I've seen, people are more likely to go to great lengths to argue an unlikely theory if a) it's mind-blowingly awesome, b) coming up with "original" theories makes them feel smart, or c) they want it to be true. "Margaery has cramps," isn't impossible, but it's also extremely underwhelming, and ASoIaF doesn't usually do "underwhelming." Hence, option (a) is out. I suppose option (b) is possible, but given how "meh" the theory is, I doubt anyone here is trying to impress us. (Note: I'm not trying to call anyone stupid by saying their theories are unimpressive. On the contrary, a lot of the people in this thread are seem very insightful and knowledgeable.)
So I wondered if some of it was due to people wanting Cersei's accusation to be untrue--either because they like the idea of Margaery being pure, or because they simply want Cersei to be wrong. Apparently, given people's annoyance at my response, that's not the case.
Yael wrote: "Actually, whether or not Margaery is a virgin has plenty of plot implications. For one, it would mean the Tyrell-Lannister alliance would be nullified since Cersei would forbid that..."Exactly, and if they believe she isn't as a result of this scandal, it will end badly. Denial is one thing, but not when the royal court is openly embarrassed. As for there being more repercussions to her not being a virgin, that's entire debatable. Personally, I think her being innocent would be just as interesting.
And to be clear, no one here insisted on her being a virgin, just that Pycelle's assistance with moon tea might have been to do with something other than extra-marital sex. It wasn't based on people wanting Margaery to be pure.
As for the rest, it sounds like we're on the same page. And I know the annoying tendency of theorists, people who argue just about anything because they can. But some people truly do think an idea is plausible. Case in point, R+L-J. That may not make sense to you, I don't know yet.
Matthew wrote: "As for the rest, it sounds like we're on the same page. And I know the annoying tendency of theorists, people who argue just about anything because they can. But some people truly do think an idea is plausible. Case in point, R+L-J. That may not make sense to you, I don't know yet. "R+L=J is so obvious at this point that I don't even consider it a theory anymore.
Yael wrote: "Matthew wrote: "As for the rest, it sounds like we're on the same page. And I know the annoying tendency of theorists, people who argue just about anything because they can. But some people truly d..."Well I agree that it's accurate, but there's still room for Martin to throw a big screw into the mix. He's good like that! ;)
For me, it's not really that I want Cersei to be wrong as much as I believe she might be. She is paranoid and has been wrong about pretty much everything lately. I don't trust Pycelle, but why would he lie to Cersei, instead of saying something like "Hey, let's say she asked me for moontea to make her look bad", if he was plotting against Margaery? Cersei herself acknowledged that the lack of physical virginity isn't proof of lack of actual virginity, as it can break while riding a horse (which is biologically accurate, too). We know very little about Margaery, but the show conditions us toward something that may or may not be total fanfic. We have to wait and see.
Well, Margaery was first wed to Renly Baratheon then to Joffrey Lannister and finally Tommen Lannister. I believe her grandmother had something to do with the death of Joffrey Lannister. This is just a theory, but maybe, just maybe, the reason for the moon tea is so that she does not become pregnant by any person other than who the grandmother intends her to settle for, since she all her husbands seem to die. The Tyrells may be saving Margaery's innocence for the "right" king and the "right" time. When or who that is, is unclear.
Juanita wrote: "Well, Margaery was first wed to Renly Baratheon then to Joffrey Lannister and finally Tommen Lannister. I believe her grandmother had something to do with the death of Joffrey Lannister. This is ju..."Now that IS interesting. Technically, she would have been unable to bed Joffrey since their wedding had not yet come to pass. But it makes sense that the Tyrells were trying to ensure that she didn't have any "accidents" until such time as they had a solid marriage with someone they knew they could trust/control.
Very interesting conversation!About Tyrion and herpes: There is a theory that he might be Targaryen (Mad King Aerys raping Tywin's wife, Lady Joanna, with whom he was obsessed). Targaryens are supposed to be immune to some illnesses, so why not also herpes?
I think this discussion flared up because of Tyrion's fascination with dragons, his "dragon dreams" as a child, Aerys wanting Joanna and the fact that he did not contract Greyscale falling in the river. The herpes argument may actually be another hint. I forgot about these details, so please help me here: Are there any cases of herpes that we know of in the books? To establish its existence in George's world.
Phil wrote: "Very interesting conversation!About Tyrion and herpes: There is a theory that he might be Targaryen (Mad King Aerys raping Tywin's wife, Lady Joanna, with whom he was obsessed). Targaryens are su..."
This theory makes too much damn sense. O:
I can't think of any specific cases in the books, though.
Phil wrote: "Very interesting conversation!About Tyrion and herpes: There is a theory that he might be Targaryen (Mad King Aerys raping Tywin's wife, Lady Joanna, with whom he was obsessed). Targaryens are su..."
You know, I think that STDs are one area in which George RR Martin's work is sadly lacking. Still, if you'd like to come through the many volumes looking for indications of "fire crotch" or "love wart", then power to ya! ;)
I do recall some minor character referring to some whores as being "poxy".
Randyll Tarly has a woman sentenced to "have her private parts washed out" with some awfully paingiving chemical for inflicting some illness of the man who accused her.So there are references in this direction in the book.
(I haven't my copy about me or I would look up the wording, it's in Briennes POV).
Holly wrote: "I do recall some minor character referring to some whores as being "poxy"."Those poxy whores! Find it, Holly, we need confirmation! :)
Game of Thrones scavenger hunt:#1 - Find a poxy whore
Matthew wrote: "Still, if you'd like to come through the many volumes looking for indications of "fire crotch" or "love wart", then power to ya! ;) "We should ask someone with an e-book to do that. Then it should be fairly easy. I - sadly - do not have those.
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I don't know why I've been thinking of this since I read the book (years and years ago.. hint GRRM). But do you think it's possible that GRRM is pointing out that Margery is using Moontea as a medieval sort of birth-control the same way that most young women use it, not to prevent pregnancy but to take the edge off periods because when you're a teen they are way worse.
PS - To the men who just read this and got all squeamish, yeah, that's why I said it was a girls only question. Now go talk about Tyrion's immunity to herpes.