The Reluctant Widow Group Read May 2018 Spoilers thread.

[QNPoohBear]

I agree with Amy. This was much better as a reread. I was expecting a romance novel when I first read it and got a mystery. Now I know Heyer well and know what to expect. I agree with many of Amy's points. I understand the predicament both Carlyon and Elinor are in from a historical perspective, but the whole plot hinges on a strange misunderstanding and Carlyon's scruples.

I liked Nicky and Bouncer. They're basically the same. Nicky will grow up nicely, like my little cousin, in a few years. I suspect he got along best with Harry and Georgy. Georgy seems like the female version of Nicky-very flighty and energetic.

I especially love the witty banter between Elinor and Carlyon. That's something Heyer excelled at. I do believe we know what Carlyon is feeling because he tries his hardest to help Elinor and he goads her into losing her temper and tossing off sarcastic remarks. He loves their verbal swordplay and it makes him love her. I am willing to buy into the romance after a week just because of the situation they were in.

Francis is absolutely blood chilling. I can't believe he murdered his best friend in cold blood and doesn't even feel remorse. He was the worst houseguest ever and didn't even get why he seemed that way even with everyone not knowing why he was there. I do not think Louis was his lover. A bromance not a romance. It would have been way too risky for Francis and his beloved reputation. Homosexuality was one thing the ton did not accept. Usually there are hints like a character moved to the Continent (especially Italy) and that's a clue that the character is participating in behavior unacceptable to the English ton on English soil. Apparently attitudes were more lax in France and Italy. Supposedly anyway. Not to say that there weren't any homosexual couples running around England at that time, I just don't think it makes sense for the characters.

Also, didn't Georgette Heyer's brother say she was too much of a "square" for that kind of thing? She was too prudish to acknowledge such shocking behavior especially among her characters. She was fond of generalizations and stereotypes that may make us assume certain things about certain characters given modern day behaviors. You know what they say when you assume [ass-u-me] something! ;-)

[Hana]

Good point about Georgy, QNPoohbear! But I also liked how perceptive she was, catching on to the budding romance between Carlyon and Ellinor, and letting us readers in on the secret at the same time. I don't think Nicky has quite her degree of emotional intelligence, or Carlyon's for that matter.

Francis really is one of GH's most chilling characters. That cold-blooded murder of his friend. Not to mention the fact that he seems to have threatened his father with death! Brrr... I wonder which member of the Horse Guards found the papers in his office and whether his career was destroyed as a result. As Carlyon put it, Francis is a very dangerous man.

[Hana]

Patrick O'Brian (who is even more famous for his meticulous historical research than GH) deals with the subject of homosexuality in several of his Aubrey-Maturin sea saga books set in Regency Britain and France. It existed, of course, but very much in the closet in Britain--and carried the death penalty, at least in the Navy. Continental Europeans, especially the French, were more tolerant. One character, De Mothe, was the sort of flaneur one might see everywhere, often escorting women friends who felt very safe consulting him on dress and decorating and accepting his protection in difficult social situations.

Francis? Well, maybe. Whatever his inclinations and appetites, Francis' first and only love is himself!

[Jenny]

I don't think there is any reason to suppose Francis and Louis were lovers either - don't forget that Francis's extravagant display of 'unmanly' grief at the news of his death was completely fake, since of course it wasn't news to him at all.
I'm not sure why he did it, even (faked all the woe I mean), unless it was to make himself look harmless by exaggerating his unmanliness.

[Jenny]

Carol ꧁꧂ wrote: "Point number 3 is a good one - although I think Carlyon had faith in Francis's intelligence. Clocking Elinor -er- with the clock was a surprising lack of judgement." It was a paperweight, not the clock!

[Critterbee❇]

Elinor was clocked next to the clock!

[Hana]

lol Critterbee :D

I think Carlyon appreciated both Francis' intelligence, his ruthlessness, and his access to the halls of military governance. It was a matter of expediency.

Carlyon was focused on the family reputation and family members' ambition. Carlyon also had enough of a hard edge to judge and act in the ambiguous place that always lies between several morally complex alternatives.

[Hana]

Also, in answer to what Amy said earlier, Carlyon had clearly judged Francis to a very fine degree. Francis was unlikely to do anything that would injure his own standing in Society. Killing Elinor in the home she had inherited from her 'spouse' would have precipitated just the sort of fuss Francis was trying to avoid.

Carlyon probably underestimated both the danger and Francis' ruthlessness and I do fault him for this.

[Alathea]

Hana wrote: "Good point about Georgy, QNPoohbear! But I also liked how perceptive she was, catching on to the budding romance between Carlyon and Ellinor, and letting us readers in on the secret at the same tim..."

To me it seemed as though Heyer had been forced to introduce the Georgy episode in order to show that Carlyon's feelings for Elinor were changing. She spent so much effort emphasising his imperturbability that she didn't allow him to show any feelings for Elinor at all, and so she had to bring in Georgy to tell us that he had any.

[Abigail]

Good thought, Alathea!

[Alathea]

QNPoohBear wrote: "...She was too prudish to acknowledge such shocking behavior [homosexuality] especially among her characters...."

But she had no scruples about the men in her novels, including some (most?) of the heroes, having their bits of muslin / barques of frailty / birds of paradise... Relationships which were very exploitative - even though Heyer is often at pains to show the women as grasping (but if they were, who can blame them?)

I wonder whether it was normal at the time when Heyer was writing for rich men to have relationships with much poorer women in this way? Or was she writing about it as something specific to the historical period?

[Nick]

If I'm to believe what I've read by Nancy Mitford and her crowd then absolutely everybody was bed-hopping like crazy when Georgette Heyer was writing, and it only got worse as she got older!

On the other hand, yes, it was quite normal for rich men to had relationships with women who were not their wive (poorer or otherwise). Thinking of just Byron (he's on my mind because I've been reading his letters) he was having romantic and sexual relationships with women of his own class, his housemaids 9he got one pregnant), and turned down an offer from infamous courtesan of his day: Harriette Wilson.

Frankly the odd thing is that Heyer didn't write more of the aristocratic women straying which they did fairly often after they'd produced an heir. I think there are a couple of examples of a Heyer hero having an affair with a lady - but again, the lady is always presented as fairly unloveable. It's a bit of a bind for a romance author - you can hardly show happy and fulfilling extramarital relationships if you're going to end with a happy-ever-after wedding!

[QNPoohBear]

Bed hopping was a favorite pastime of the upper classes when Heyer was growing up in the Edwardian era too. People followed the royals and when the prince was profligate like "Prinny" and Bertie, then the nobles tended to follow suit. Adultery was not illegal per say and was permissible as long as one was discreet. Francis having a cherie amie or bit of muslin wouldn't ruin his reputation. Francis having an affair with a married woman wouldn't ruin his reputation unless he fought a duel with the wronged husband. Francis having an affair with another man would be shocking, not to mention illegal. There are rumors about Lord Byron but he was "mad, bad and dangerous to know" as in NOT good ton. Francis is VERY careful of his reputation and he just doesn't care about anyone or anything that doesn't keep him in good standing with the ton. Louis, apparently, siding with the French, is bad ton.

[Abigail]

Heyer does have some women who strayed or were rumored to have strayed, but they were mostly minor characters. There’s periodically talk of someone’s child not being of the husband’s getting. To my vague recollection, it was always as the result of a distant and unloving husband. Evidently in her world an unsatisfying marriage made infidelity understandable, so long as it was discreet.

[Carolm]

I believe it is in the Unknown Ajax where a comment is made about the troubling resemblance of an uncle to a man who was not the uncle's "official father".

[Critterbee❇]

Carolm wrote: "I believe it is in the Unknown Ajax where a comment is made about the troubling resemblance of an uncle to a man who was not the uncle's "official father"."

That was my favorite line from the book, but I think it was from the Quiet Gentleman? At least, the one I am thinking of is:

(view spoiler)[ "And as for your conduct in not wearing the Frant ring, and causing the Indian epergne to be removed from the Smaller dining-table, I am sure it is all of a piece, and just what anyone would have expected!" she said. "I daresay it is the influence of Lady Penistone, but on that head I shall maintain silence, for although I never liked her, and, indeed, consider her a fast, frivolous woman, I do not forget that she is your grandmother; and if I am persuaded that her third son was fathered by Roxby, as no one could doubt who had ever clapped eyes on him, I am determined that nothing shall prevail upon me to say so!" She then startled Miss Morville, as much as the Earl, by bursting into tears; and Gervase, who had stiffened at this all too probable answer to the problem of his Uncle Maurice's curious likeness to my Lord Roxby, relaxed again, and only said, in a coaxing tone: "It is very bad, ma'am, but although I had not enough good taste to get myself killed in the late wars, at least you may be sure that I shall never accuse Martin of attempting to put a period to my existence." (hide spoiler)]

[Carolm]

That's the one I was thinking of. I didn't have any of my books in front of me, so couldn't remember which one it was.

[Abigail]

I’d forgotten that bit. Hilarious!

[Karlyne]

Heyer's talent at its best!

[Hana]

That's a wonderful moment! Thanks Critterbee. I've tried for years to find an image of an Indian epergne like Lady Pensiston's to no avail. I can only assume it was melted down after her passing to spare future generations the sight of those tigers!

[Jenny]

Hana wrote: "That's a wonderful moment! Thanks Critterbee. I've tried for years to find an image of an Indian epergne like Lady Pensiston's to no avail. I can only assume it was melted down after her passing to..."
It's probably lurking in the family attic to this very day!

[Abigail]

Lurking indeed! Imagine going up there as a small child and being confronted with such a monstrosity—I’d have nightmares for days!