The Reluctant Widow Group Read May 2018 Chapters 1-10

[Nick]

Teresa, I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. I'll be wishing you all the best in a tough time.

[Karlyne]

I can almost convict Elinor of duplicity when, at the end of Chapter 9, she seems determined to not stay at The Mouldering Mansion, but I think it's sub-consciously, so I'll let her off the hook. I think all of her protestations are made just so that Carlyon can overrule them, but I'm not sure she realizes it just yet. I do wonder how she would have reacted if he had agreed with her and insisted that she leave, but I think she's, again sub-consciously, sure that he'll convince her to stay.

Oh, and Bounder is funny on the pages, but I don't think he'd be in my list of favorite dogs...

[Nick]

Karlyne wrote: " I think all of her protestations are made just so that Carlyon can overrule them, but I'm not sure she realizes it just yet."

I think this is absolutely right. I can't think of one specifically now, but I'm sure that there were a few occasions where she was miffed at him, but immediately got over it when he offered to let her back out.

[Susan in NC]

I find myself skimming along over Elinor’s scenes with Nicky and Bouncer - I’m sorry, but he bugs the bejesus out of me - she wants to get the house in order and loses a whole day through Nicky’s shenanigans! He’s cute and funny, but I’d never have her patience...

[Barb in Maryland]

I always thought of Nicky as being about 12 years old--well, that's how old he acts... and Bouncer, as someone said up thread, is a fun dog on paper, but in real life {{shudder}}. Here's where I am all in sympathy with Elinor.

[Susan in NC]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "I always thought of Nicky as being about 12 years old--well, that's how old he acts... and Bouncer, as someone said up thread, is a fun dog on paper, but in real life {{shudder}}. Here's where I am..."

Agreed.

[Susan in Perthshire]

Totally agree Susan - he acts like a really juvenile 12 year old but he must be 18 because he has just been sent down from Oxford. His first appearance is funny and really well written (naturally) but there can be too much of a good thing and in this case Nicky is centre stage for too long. I also tend to skim him now!

[Critterbee❇]

Nicky does act in very immature way, and I remember being irritated by him during my first read, but he sure advances the a plot. I was also irritated when Elinor was trapped all day by the dog - the dog's personality closely matches Nicky's!

[Critterbee❇]

And I just realized I have not posted yet, so this is my second read, and I am reading it on my kindle.

[Hana]

Rosina wrote: "The turning point in Elinor's resistance was the arrival of Nicky, with the confusing talk of bears, and bagwigs, and stabbing Eustace to death ..."

Yes! And another turning point was the drive with Carlyon when he remembered that Elinor's father was a famous whip and even remembered the matched pair of greys he drove. I think the sudden recollection of the pleasures of her former life and status began to shift Elinor's determination to serve out her 'sentence' as a governess. An then, without a worry, Carlyon hands her the reins at the stop for the parson trusting her to walk the horses. I just loved that moment.

[Hana]

Karlyne wrote: "And the "brandy" part... Can you imagine the eyebrows raised all the way to the moon?!" I laughed out loud at that line :)

[Hana]

Does anyone know how Carlyon should be pronounced? Is it two syllables "Carl-yon?" or three "Car-lee-on?"

[Rosina]

Hana wrote: "Does anyone know how Carlyon should be pronounced? Is it two syllables "Carl-yon?" or three "Car-lee-on?""

I would pronounce it Car Lion. Most of the pronounciation guides online favour American versions - This has an English person saying it as I would. https://forvo.com/word/carlyon/ It's in Cornwall.

[Alathea]

Hana wrote: "Does anyone know how Carlyon should be pronounced? Is it two syllables "Carl-yon?" or three "Car-lee-on?""

There's an Australian author and journalist called Les Carlyon, and apparently he pronounces it Car Lion :-) He's written about the ANZACs in WW1. I'd never heard of him until I went looking for the pronunciation, but I'm listening to a podcast interview with him right now.

[Hana]

Thank you, Rosina and Alathea!

[Susan in NC]

❇Critterbee wrote: "Nicky does act in very immature way, and I remember being irritated by him during my first read, but he sure advances the a plot. I was also irritated when Elinor was trapped all day by the dog - t..."

Lol, true - Nicky and Bouncer are quite a pair!

[Susan in NC]

Hana wrote: "Thank you, Rosina and Alathea!"

Yes, thank you, if I don’t know how to pronounce correctly my mind bumps to a halt every time I see the name...

[Susan in NC]

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Totally agree Susan - he acts like a really juvenile 12 year old but he must be 18 because he has just been sent down from Oxford. His first appearance is funny and really well written (naturally) ..."

Thanks Susan, I thought I was bring an old rag of a mom, but my son is 22 and graduating college, so I can’t help but compare his behavior to Nicky’s. I think Carlyon has done a good job raising his siblings, but Nicky is too immature. I know he’s youngest, and he’s been indulged, but the stories of people getting physically hurt through his impetuous behavior is a bit much. He needs to learn some self-control!

[Hana]

Ha! I was wrong about the pronunciation of Cheviot as well! The Britisher in this link says the "ch" as in chat or cheat.

http://heracleums.org/tools/pronuncia...

[Hana]

I have to say I find Nicky (and Bouncer) rather amusing--as Ellinor does, even though she finds both exasperating as well. But our Susans make a good point on his immaturity!

I checked out the remedies:

Basilicum powder is actually ground basil leaves. It was thought to help prevent wound infections.

Here's a US Civil War era recipe for white wine whey. It sounds odious!

WHITE-WINE WHEY — Dilute half a pint of new milk with an equal quantity of hot water; boil both together, and while boiling pour in at the moment two wineglasses of white-wine. A curd will form, which, after boiling the mixture for two or three minutes longer, will settle at the bottom of the saucepan. The whey must be strained carefully from the curd; it should be perfectly clear. Sugar may be added to please the taste. Warm white-wine whey promotes perspiration, and hence is useful in the commencement of some complaints; but taken cold, it has a different effect, and often, in cases of low fever, it is an excellent beverage; also, in the early stages of convalescence, it is as safe and sufficient a stimulant as can be given.

More History at: http://www.accessible-archives.com/20...

[Karlyne]

Is there a reference to Nicky being sent down from Oxford? I assumed so, but Elinor mentions him as an "adolescent" later, which made me wonder. The only reference I can quickly find is his first explanation of why he was in Sussex, which mentions the Dean, the Bagwig, and the Nobs. Would that have to mean Oxford, or could it have been a prep school? He doesn't strike me as a scholarly type, and definitely not apt to be training for the ministry (I was surprised to read the % of "professional" including the ministry during the 1800s).
Anyway, I'd find his attitude and actions more understandable if he were 15-16, rather than late teens.

[Alathea]

Karlyne wrote: "Is there a reference to Nicky being sent down from Oxford?"

Chapter 2, about 5 pages in: Carlyon tells Elinor that his sisters are married, he has one brother in the Peninsula, another at the Home Office, and the youngest in his first year at Oxford. Later on Nicky himself says he's been rusticated, ie suspended for the rest of the term.

This is my third time of reading, and I'm finding Nicky downright irritating this time round, especially since he defends himself about the bear episode by saying he hadn't actually stolen the bear, only borrowed it, as though setting a bear to chase people was nice harmless fun.

[Abigail]

In those days, bright students might go up to Oxford or Cambridge at younger ages—I’ve read about some precocious fellow graduating at 16! So Nicky might be younger than 18. We also have to remember that he grew up in the depths of the country and was a lot younger than his male sibs, so he wouldn’t necessarily have grown up quickly or learned more mature behaviors from them.

[Karlyne]

Aha! I knew there was a reason I thought it was Oxford! Since his behavior is more in keeping with a mid-teen (I have an almost 15 year old who's near & dear to my heart who could pass for Nicky's twin and who's the despair of his slightly older brothers), I'm going to think of Nicky as a young 16 year old. There! Now I feel better.

[Critterbee❇]

Karlyne wrote: "Is there a reference to Nicky being sent down from Oxford? I assumed so, but Elinor mentions him as an "adolescent" later, which made me wonder. The only reference I can quickly find is his first e..."

Yes, Nicky was sent down because he could not control himself and borrowed / stole a dancing performing bear...

edited - changed dancing to performing

[Susan in Perthshire]

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but at this time, boys like Nicky would attend somewhere like Eton or Harrow between the ages of 13-18 and then gone to Oxford or Cambridge or Edinburgh. Only the very brightest and academically gifted would go up to University at a younger age. One does not get the impression that Nicky is academically gifted - so I think he is closer to 18.

[Critterbee❇]

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Susan in Perthshire
497 books | 28 friends
see comment history Sorry to be a wet blanket, but at this time, boys like Nicky would attend somewhere like Eton or Harrow between the ages of 13-18 and then gone to Oxford or Cambridge or Edinburgh. Only the very brightest and academically gifted would go up to University at a younger age. One does not get the impression that Nicky is academically gifted - so I think he is closer to 18. .."

...One does not get the impression that Nicky is academically gifted... Very diplomatically put, Susan! hahaha

[Karlyne]

I just can't reconcile 18 with adolescent, so I'll bury my head in the sand and resolutely think of him as 15. Ah, much better!

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Karlyne wrote: "I just can't reconcile 18 with adolescent, so I'll bury my head in the sand and resolutely think of him as 15. Ah, much better!"

My daughter turned 18 while still at high school, so I don't have a problem with that.

I don't think Carlyon would have let Nicky stay with Elinor if he was only around 15. That would be putting a child at risk.

[Karlyne]

Nope, nope, nope. I refuse to give in to logic or reasonableness. His behavior as a 15 year old i could find rather endearing. But as an 18 year old...?

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Karlyne wrote: "Nope, nope, nope. I refuse to give in to logic or reasonableness. His behavior as a 15 year old i could find rather endearing. But as an 18 year old...?"

I still find his youthful freshness & innocence endearing.

[Rosina]

Given how students behave these days, I don't find Nicky peculiarly irresponsible or juvenile. He is one of my favourite junior characters, so much more endearing than Jessamy or Felix ...

[Jackie]

I found humor in both the antics of Nicky and Bouncer but I don't know that I'd want to live with either one. I'm OK with pretending Nicky is younger as a way to enjoy the book more: I do that with the nephew in Sylvester, who is supposed to be six or something and I like him MUCH better if I think of him as half that.

[Critterbee❇]

Jackie wrote: "I found humor in both the antics of Nicky and Bouncer but I don't know that I'd want to live with either one. I'm OK with pretending Nicky is younger as a way to enjoy the book more: I do that with..."

That is right, he does seem much younger than 6!

[Jackie]

Hana, I really like what you said about the moment when Carlyon hands Elinor the reins, thus showing trust in her ability to handle his horses. since we are all Heyer fans, we know how important someone's horses can be!

I think I need to keep pronouncing the name Cheviot as a "Sh" at the beginning. I'm just used to it.

[Hilary (A Wytch's Book Review)]

Thinking of some the the first year undergrads here in Cambridge - they do seem to regress about 4 years during Freshers Week - so yes I think Nicky is 18 but reliving fun times at Uni!

[Rosina]

Hilary S wrote: "Thinking of some the the first year undergrads here in Cambridge - they do seem to regress about 4 years during Freshers Week - so yes I think Nicky is 18 but reliving fun times at Uni!"

Like the Oxford tradition of jumping from Magdelen Bridge on May Day morning, in three foot of water, resulting in severe injuries, or any youngsters tombstoning, or that thing with the pig's head. 18 year olds are known for their maturity and rational actions.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Rosina wrote: "Given how students behave these days, I don't find Nicky peculiarly irresponsible or juvenile. He is one of my favourite junior characters, so much more endearing than Jessamy or Felix ..."

I like Nicky more than Felix and Jessamy as well.

[Susan in NC]

Karlyne wrote: "Nope, nope, nope. I refuse to give in to logic or reasonableness. His behavior as a 15 year old i could find rather endearing. But as an 18 year old...?"

Exactly.

[Susan in NC]

Rosina wrote: "Hilary S wrote: "Thinking of some the the first year undergrads here in Cambridge - they do seem to regress about 4 years during Freshers Week - so yes I think Nicky is 18 but reliving fun times at..."

Damn that unformed prefrontal cortex! What do they say, not until a young person is in their mid-twenties? I can’t judge, my son is an only child and has always been a worrier and more anxious and reserved - if anything, he overthinks things. At least Nicky is cheerful and kind! But I agree, I wouldn’t necessarily want to live with him.

[Elza]

Karlyne wrote: I laughed out loud at that cover! It's way beyond "simpering miss" style.

I had to laugh too. That's a pageant pose, y'all. Not very Elinor.

[Amy]

This is my second reading and the first time I read it I only rated it two stars. I'm enjoying it more this time around.

Nicky and Bounder. Ugh. I really don't like that dog.

[Abigail]

Oh, I love Bounder! He can come live with me anytime. He’s just so . . . dog.

[Susan in NC]

Abigail wrote: "Oh, I love Bounder! He can come live with me anytime. He’s just so . . . dog."

Lol, I like that! Yes, he is, isn’t he?

[Critterbee❇]

Nicky and Bounder have the exact same personality...

[Margaret]

Nicky is not a bounder, but he is a "Bouncer"! :)

[Amy]

Margaret wrote: "Nicky is not a bounder, but he is a "Bouncer"! :)"

Hahaha. I'm listening to the audiobook and the narrators accent makes it sound like Bounder.

[Elza]

Re-reading as an ebook, after a number of years -- this is one that I like, but it's not a top-tier favorite. Have to admit that I find both Elinor and Carlyon a bit annoying. Elinor for her constant complaining and sarcasm (she is a bit of an Eeyore, isn't she), Carlyon for his constant dismissal of said complaining and self-described lack of "sensibility."

Heyer shows us from the beginning that Elinor is in a very vulnerable position, and then has her jump from the frying pan into the fire by ending up at the wrong destination. When you think of how very badly that could have ended up for her, had she encountered someone less scrupulous than Carlyon, it does make you shudder.

[Elza]

Teresa, I wanted to add my condolences on the loss of your mother. Praying for peace and comfort for you as you grieve. I can only add that after losing my mother, reading was an escape that helped me get through a very difficult time.

[Teresa]

Thank you so much Elza. The comments here are helping me a lot. I've picked up some light reading at the moment. Not in the mood for anything I have to concentrate on. But yes, books do help.