Breaking Dawn (The Twilight Saga, #4) Breaking Dawn discussion


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The central point of the series is Bella being brave enough to take risks and earn her happiness, right?

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message 1: by Mari (last edited Jul 27, 2014 07:06PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mari Thats how I always understood it. She is a simple normal girl, although she has the potential for more. She isn't the "chosen one" like Buffy or something. She chooses her path. She could have just been a coward, and said; "Hey! I don't need to take that risk, I may love Edward, but Vampires are dangerous!" Then she would have had nothing. Later, she could have decided that she doesn't trust Edward. Because trusting someone is one of the bravest things you can do. Its scary. But she is brave and chooses to trust. Then later, she could have chosen Jacob, after all, Edward left her. She could have been selfish or spiteful, and say "Well Edward left me! I will just let him die! and stay with Jacob" Then she would have had nothing. But she chose to be bigger then that. Then she could have chosen to not have the baby, because of the great danger to herself. But she chose to have faith and courage and keep the child and fight……and in the end she is a powerful immortal, with a loving mate, and a daughter she loves. All because she was brave at every turn.
Would you say thats the central theme?


Iris Sure if that makes you feel better. lol, I guess it could be even though I didn't see it that way.


Mari Iris wrote: "Sure if that makes you feel better. lol, I guess it could be even though I didn't see it that way."

I feel fine either way. :)


message 4: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia Mari wrote: "Iris wrote: "Sure if that makes you feel better. lol, I guess it could be even though I didn't see it that way."

I feel fine either way. :)"


yeah bit of the same here a well.


message 5: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia what does everyone thinks about it?


message 6: by Lev (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lev I definetly did not think this but then again I rarely think about what the book actually means after I read it.


Nuran Did she really choose her path though? In her words (paraphrasing a bit, I don’t remember it exactly), “to be the vampire she was always meant to be”. She was born to be a vampire, not to live a human life. Fate brought Belle and Edward together so they can have Rensmee for Jacob, you know with the whole imprinting fate mate thing.

So, she was kind of chosen, she was chosen by fate and the universe. It made it sound like that was her fate, her destiny. Alice could see the future and she saw Bella was fated to become a vampire and to fall in love with Edward.

She was always destined to end up with Edward. I don’t think she could have fought what fate had in store for her, so did she really choose for herself, or did fate did?

I think the message is -

The universe has already predestined who you end up with.


message 8: by Ingo (last edited Jul 30, 2014 04:03AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Ingo Actually Bella is the reason I found Twilight lacking in depth, she was prone to accidents, clumsy, I thought there would be a revelation of an illness of which she is cured by becoming a Vampire. Nothing. There are examples for that in other Vampire books ( Interview With The Vampire ) so it might have been a path in the story to be explored.

And she is too devote and meek, she did not choose her path, she gets it chosen. As a female heroine she tries to fit in by becoming like the others, so she chooses the wrong boy and gets bitten to transform in a Vampire.

Someone wrote in an article comparing Hunger Games to Twilight, that Katniss is the better female. Found it: 5 Ways Katniss Is Better Than Bella.
This expresses my thoughts exactly, but Katniss also was manipulated into leading the revolution, so she is also not perfect, as she does not realize that.

I like my female heroines to be strong and willful, and Bella is nothing like that. Also there was the Buffy-Twilight-Mockup-Clip, where they rightfully showed how creepy Edward behaves by entering her bedroom and watching her sleep. That is also a theme left to be explored: Twilight as a tale of a bad Vampire stalking his would be Girlfriend.

Obviously Jacob was the right one for her, maybe in another fan-fiction-follow-up someone writes that story, where they kill Edward early ... just hoping.


Jacque That's how I've always read it. People tend to be so hung up on hating the movies and because of hating the movies hating the books, and not seeing there actually are some good things Meyer is trying to say (what I like to call literary goodies). Now I am in no way arguing it should be read for any literary projects in school, if you try to find that you're going to terribly disappointed on presentation day and all you have are a few parallels (most of which I mostly disagree with) that were not only explained for you, but really aren't the best connections. What I am saying though is Twilight is not as bad as all of the haters say it is. Yes Bella is irritating at times, but to add to o.p's argument, her whininess is part of the theme.


message 10: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia Jacque wrote: "That's how I've always read it. People tend to be so hung up on hating the movies and because of hating the movies hating the books, and not seeing there actually are some good things Meyer is tryi..."
very well point there.


message 11: by Iris (new) - rated it 3 stars

Iris Nuran wrote: "Did she really choose her path though? In her words (paraphrasing a bit, I don’t remember it exactly), “to be the vampire she was always meant to be”. She was born to be a vampire, not to live a hu..."

Alice also saw Edward kill her, so I don't think that fate was big there. The two made the conscious decision to be together.


message 12: by Iris (new) - rated it 3 stars

Iris Ingo wrote: "Actually Bella is the reason I found Twilight lacking in depth, she was prone to accidents, clumsy, I thought there would be a revelation of an illness of which she is cured by becoming a Vampire. ..."

I disagree with the article. I give it to Bella. She may be dependant on Edward and a bit asinine but at least she knows herself. She has no problem making up her mind (something the indecisive Katniss cannot do) and then burning down hell to get it. Bella is stronger than Katniss also, I think, because by the end Katniss has practically lost her mind whereas Bella had gained mental strength and physical power and can now defend those she cares about. So Bella wins for me.


message 13: by Ingo (new) - rated it 2 stars

Ingo Bella never needed to defend those she cares about if she had left the whole group of Vampires and Wolves well alone. They where only in danger because of her choices. But actually that is one of the underlying themes of Meyers writing which I absolutely hate: family values.
While not being obvious about it, Meyer invented a supernatural family with moral values. Give me real bloodsucker anytime, or even a mindless serial killer ( Dexter ).
While it was an interesting change to the kind of Vampires as we are used to, like vegetarians vs. meat-eaters, it was overdone, at least in Edward (the rest of his family where way better).
This is one reason why my favorite character is Victoria with her bloody revenge - better to go down fighting than live happily ever after (so boring).
If you want this kind fairytale live for her and Edward, yes, you can say Bella has won. Gives me the creeps, thinking they are safe, no more fighting, no dangers, and this forever?
Wow, perfect nightmare, most boring life I can imagine. Somehow I do not think that will happen, but if more books in the Twilight-Saga where written, I am not so sure I would read them. My idea would be a secret affair between Bella and Jacob, probably a divorce or (and) Edward finally succeeding in killing himself.


Sandra Hofmann Let's start with saying that while I not love the books, I didn't hate them either. They were entertaining enough to read all of them. But if I'd have to drag out a central point or a morale out of it (which I rarely attempt to do with books I've read solely for my entertainment), it would be something like: Your actions don't have consequences! .. You have to go through a gruesome stage of lacking self-control when you are a newborn vampire? Well, not Bella. You have to choose between your mortal family and your new immortal vampire clan? Not Bella. You can either have the werwolf or the vampire in your life? Not Bella. If you become pregnant, you might have to deal with all the hardships of motherhood in the long run? No, Bella's kid conveniently grows fast enough to avoid that.
I won't even start on the things the other books in the series have teached me: stalking guys who break into your bedroom to stare at you are the most romantic guys ever, it's okay to be so dependet on your boyfriend to totally give up on life when he leaves you..


message 15: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia Sandra wrote: "Let's start with saying that while I not love the books, I didn't hate them either. They were entertaining enough to read all of them. But if I'd have to drag out a central point or a morale out of..."

quite true there. almost all the books that on twi its was quite slow, half of book is about her, if she was brave or not? i woulnd't think so. just saying.


message 16: by Mari (last edited Aug 04, 2014 02:24PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mari Sherlocked wrote: "It's mostly about being in love in a codependent level (as shown in New Moon), the risks that dating a dangerous being brings, and the consequences that the main characters actions had with those a..."

I think co dependent is one of those words that no one really knows how to define, but they throw it out there when they have nothing else to say, really. Any close relationship, even a non romantic one is co dependent. Bella and Edward are not in an unhealthy relationship, however co dependent it may be. They manage to argue without resorting to anger, which is a good sign. They never actually force any decisions on each other. Edward of course lets Bella know what he would like, such as he would feel better if she didn't see the shape shifters, but thats healthy. Telling someone what you think is best is not forcing them to do anything. Its just communicating. I sure wouldn't want a mate that didn't want what is best for me. As for dangerous, yes. He is dangerous. So is everyone. The thing is that Edward was never any more dangerous to Bella then a human male. He was just AFRAID that he was. The potential to be dangerous is meaningless if someone isn't going to hurt you. Just like being with a big strong man is more potentially dangerous then being with a weak, sickly one. However, if the strong man is determined to NOT hurt you, then what difference does it make? Edward showed commitment to not hurting Bella, even though he feared his own potential. She realized there was no real danger there, just a potential for it, which would never be exercised.
The weirdest part is the "consequences to those around them" What kind of looser would forego their own future just so they friends and family were appeased? What kind of friend or family member would want their loved one to forego their future on their account? People go to find their life away from their family, and become part of a new one. Thats how it should be.


message 17: by Mari (last edited Aug 04, 2014 02:37PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mari Ingo wrote: "Bella never needed to defend those she cares about if she had left the whole group of Vampires and Wolves well alone. They where only in danger because of her choices. But actually that is one of t..."

Actually, the only person that was in danger besides Bella was her father and mother. Bella certainly didn't know that would happen, but as it did, sometimes you have to take a stand. After all, your parents are not your ultimate family. They are the family you leave to create your own.
Dexter isn't a mindless killer. He is a conflicted man, who has so many similarities to Edward I don't even know where to start. He has a demon of sorts inside of him that needs to kill, and Dexter tries his best to only kill those who deserve it. he is basically a good man with an awful dilemma. Unlike Edward its not blood he needs, its death.
As for needing to always be in danger to not be bored…well, how are you going to enjoy life? Looking at you I wouldn't think you had ever done anything particularly dangerous. Are you bored? What a sad thought, to need bloodshed. Most of us would never waste immortality in constant battle.


message 18: by Mari (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mari Lev wrote: "I definetly did not think this but then again I rarely think about what the book actually means after I read it."

Very wise.


message 19: by Mari (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mari Jacque wrote: "That's how I've always read it. People tend to be so hung up on hating the movies and because of hating the movies hating the books, and not seeing there actually are some good things Meyer is tryi..."

Agreed! Good thing some of us are smart. ;)


message 20: by Jessica (last edited Aug 05, 2014 09:46AM) (new)

Jessica Mari wrote: "Bella and Edward are not in an unhealthy relationship, however co dependent it may be. They manage to argue without resorting to anger, which is a good sign. They never actually force any decisions on each other."

Hello Mari! I hope you don't mind me making a counterargument to somethings you've posted.

Right off the top of my head I can remember two very distinct topics that they forced the hand of the other on, very important ones that were life changing choices. For Bella she forces the decision of when she turns and how because she was impatient and wanted to be turned when she wanted to and not when he was comfortable with changing her. For Edward he forces the decision of college on Bella, going so far as to forge her signature on the applications.

Edward and Bella's relationship isn't healthy, which I don't think is a subjective opinion. I don't know if you've seen it anywhere, but their relationship has been compared to the list of about fifteen signs of an abusive/unhealthy relationship and it matches every point on the list. Many people think that the relationship is unhealthy because Edward emotionally abused Bella and to an extent manipulated her. Their relationship is unhealthy for a lot of reasons besides that, it's also paired with people viewing Bella as mentally unstable and very codependent. Being codependent on someone like Bella and Edward were is unhealthy. They had a great power imbalance, and people view not being your partner's equal as signs of an unhealthy relationship.

Yes, it's your opinion that it wasn't unhealthy, but so far what you've said doesn't exactly convince me that their relationship wasn't unhealthy.

"Actually, the only person that was in danger besides Bella was her father and mother. "

The whole town of Forks was in danger, as seen by Victoria, Laurent, and James killing humans, and then the Voltori killing humans. If Bella didn't interact with Edward all the people that died wouldn't have died.

"Edward of course lets Bella know what he would like, such as he would feel better if she didn't see the shape shifters, but thats healthy. Telling someone what you think is best is not forcing them to do anything."

I would like to bring up the time in New Moon when Edward dismantled Bella's car so that she couldn't go see Jacob. Edward's jealousy was not healthy, nor was his obsession with her and her obsession with him (which also made their relationship unhealthy). Edward has no right to try to make Bella not see the tribe. He has a right to his opinion but it was fueled by jealousy. He should not be forcing her to do what he wants because that would make him feel better and thus not taking her wants into consideration.

"The thing is that Edward was never any more dangerous to Bella then a human male."

Edward states on several occasions that he's a danger to her and there are instances where it is proven that Edward and his kind is a danger to Bella because of her blood and how it attracts vampires and thus danger to her. He's more dangerous than a human to Bella.

"The potential to be dangerous is meaningless if someone isn't going to hurt you."

He has hurt her, on several occasions.

"What kind of looser would forego their own future just so they friends and family were appeased?"

Your train of thought is very troubling. Nevertheless, it's not appeasing anyone, it's making sure that no one dies because of one's selfish actions. Bella has made selfish actions that has hurt others both physically and mentally, and has killed other townfolk.

"Agreed! Good thing some of us are smart. ;) "

And lastly, your backhanded comment is uncalled for and very rude. Differing opinions does not mean that those who don't agree with your are "Loosers" or are not smart. No one insulted you nor said anything bad about you, calling those who do not have a similar opinion of yours are not stupid. Please drop that opinion and act more mature.


message 21: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia JesseBrooke wrote: "Mari wrote: "Bella and Edward are not in an unhealthy relationship, however co dependent it may be. They manage to argue without resorting to anger, which is a good sign. They never actually force ..."

ok. look like some diff people, have their diff pov from time to time.


message 22: by Ingo (new) - rated it 2 stars

Ingo Mari wrote: "After all, your parents are not your ultimate family. They are the family you leave to create your own."Wow, you totally lost me here. That is a choice, to leave your family to create your own. To have a family on your own, if you really want that, you do not have to leave your family. If you do, you do it by choice. If you are in a relationship, the family just gets bigger.

Mari wrote: "Are you bored? What a sad thought, to need bloodshed. Most of us would never waste immortality in constant battle." I read so I am not bored ... this is a discussion about a fiction, a book about Vampires and immortality. Of course my life may seem boring to you, and I do not take risks, I have no problem with that in reality as opposed to fiction. And that is what we are discussing here (at least I am trying).
Immortality is luckily something we do not have to bother with, it gives me creeps.

I want the people in the books I read to be different, after all, reading is way to flee from reality. If I read a book that is boring, I consider wether there is something worth reading on, Twilight, all 4 books where not boring, but I would have liked a different ending or Bella having taken a different choice somewhere in the story. In comparison I liked the films, as they where like the books and for me they where well filmed close to the books (certain changes allowed, although I cannot remember there being changes). So I cannot hate the films, as for me the books could be better, but that is not the fault of the films.


message 23: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia Ingo wrote: "Mari wrote: "After all, your parents are not your ultimate family. They are the family you leave to create your own."Wow, you totally lost me here. That is a choice, to leave your family to create ..."

that kind of true there..


message 24: by Amber (last edited Aug 06, 2014 08:42PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Amber http://io9.com/5413428/official-twili...

Some of the points are reaching a little bit, but others are pretty spot-on. It only takes a single point to make a relationship an abusive one, so the reaching points don't really matter. I have always thought the relationship was very unhealthy and to me it kind of displayed how easy it is for teenagers to be very obsessive in a relationship. And sadly, their relationship is very similar to how teenage relationships can get, I have seen it happen so many times. I think that's why people have a problem with it being displayed as true-love or romantic, it only encourages people to accept abuse rather than avoid it which is kind of scary. I enjoyed the Twilight series for what it was but the more I see the abusive points, the more I've pulled away from being a fan of it.

It's scarily easy to gloss over/ignore these points too. Which bothers me even more.


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