Discussion

[Camille]

If you want to talk about this book, share your opinions about things you like or don't like about it, don't hesitate !

[Tania Reads]

Hey, so is anyone interested in discussing "problematic" themes in the books we read? It never seems to come up during the livechats and I'd like to acknowledge them. And I didn't wanna make a new topic because 1) I didn't know if anyone else would appreciate that :/ and 2) I'd like to start off with our current read, Lord of the Flies.

So, I first read this book like 10 yrs ago (don't worry, I won't spoil) and upon my re-read there's some stuff that makes me uncomfortable. Mainly that Golding equates nakedness, face paint, making spears, etc. to "savagery". I mean, clearly, that's racist. They're Native stereotypes. Native people are not savages. The thing is, though, I don't think it's unlikely for a group of boys (or just kids, especially of this time) to imitate the stereotypes they've learned about Native people. This book seems to really toe the line between reinforcing those stereotypes and making a commentary on them. Golding definitely challenges what it means to be "civilized", but as the boys grow more violent, the more they adopt Native stereotypes so, personally, I don't feel like Golding is particularly challenging what it means to be "savage". And the language itself ("civilized", "savage") is bad. I mean, I'm loving the themes and I still think they're relevant to this day, but being a book from the 50s, I find the language/writing to be severely outdated (something I feel for every RR book I've read) and question why we can't just read another book that has the same themes but doesn't toe the line of "is this racist or is it commentary?". Because, I think it's both tbh. But I would just like a clearer distinction, and I'm sure are other books that have that. (Idk I guess this last part is just a personal thing.)

Sorry if this is not 100% coherent, or if no one wants to talk about it, it's fine lol. I'd just thought I'd bring it up, because personally I really wanna get into the meat of these books, and the lives seem to go by so fast! even though it's an hour, they feel so short!

[Camille]

Tania Reads wrote: "Hey, so is anyone interested in discussing "problematic" themes in the books we read? It never seems to come up during the livechats and I'd like to acknowledge them. And I didn't wanna make a new ..."

Hello Tania !

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. I agree that the lives go by very fast, and I would love to talk a little more deeply about some topics. I'm not always very critical towards books and I believe that sharing opinions on them is really helpful. I'm always open to new point of views :)
Also, I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner... I needed to finish the chapters for this week.

I think it's a very interesting point that you mentioned. To be honest, I didn't really paid attention to what you are pointing out until the 8th chapter, even though some things that were written made me cringe a lot.

Chap.8 made me uncomfortable. With « and then hunting and all that — being savages I mean — it must be jolly good fun » and the way it echoed to a part before in the chapter, where Jack and his group were hunting the pig, when they were all « excited by the long chase and the dropped blood », how Jack was giggling because his hands were full of blood. I thought the scene was very stereotyped and awkward, and maybe somehow echoed with what you were saying (if I'm wrong, don't hesitate to tell me). It's weird, and like you say, unlikely, to see children acting like that.

But the way you explained things made me reconsider everything. I don't really have something to say right now, but I'll keep your point of view in mind while reading the next chapters and I'll tell you how I feel after I've finished the book, if that's okay with you :)

[Tania Reads]

Camille wrote: "Tania Reads wrote: "Hey, so is anyone interested in discussing "problematic" themes in the books we read? It never seems to come up during the livechats and I'd like to acknowledge them. And I didn..."

It's fine, take your time! I hadn't yet read ch8 when I posted my comment and since then I've had A LOT to reflect on.

I agree that when the boys are talking about how being "savages" is fun or in ch7 when Maurice says "We ought to have a drum" "then we could do it properly" those are examples of what I was getting at, but I think the actual killing of pig is more reflective on how the boys would have treated girls if they were on the island, or how men in their society treat girls/women. Because Golding deliberately uses female pronouns when referring to the pig, and the pig is also in peaceful maternal bliss, and here come these boys to ruin that. Which was uncomfortable to me, just for different reasons (and in a different way).

The uncomfortable part for me, in terms of racism, was the whole ritual thing where Simon sticks the pig's head on the stick and how the vocabulary Golding uses, like the boys calling themselves "tribes", is much more prominent in ch8. And maybe there's something to be said about how the most violent chapter so far is the one with the most stereotypes. Idk who is was, but someone in the live commented on Golding's background, him coming from a British colonialist society is what shaped a lot of how he chose to explore his themes. So I understand better why he wrote what he wrote, but it still doesn't make it okay. Like, we can understand a writer's motivation while also being critical of their execution.

Also, I'm glad Alberto touched on some of these things! And he was getting at something that I forgot to mention in the live! Oops! But I think Alberto was trying to say that the boys are basically regressing. And if we look at the beginning of ch7 Ralph has bit his nails "Ralph turned his hands over and examined them. They were bitten down to the quick though he could not remember when he had restarted this habit nor anytime he indulged it. 'Be sucking my thumb next-.'" Would have been interesting to see this angle explored more!

[Camille]

Tania Reads wrote: "Camille wrote: "Tania Reads wrote: "Hey, so is anyone interested in discussing "problematic" themes in the books we read? It never seems to come up during the livechats and I'd like to acknowledge ..."

Hello !

I finally found a little bit of time to comment your reply but to be honest, I don't have a lot of things to say, as I actually agree with everything you said.

I've haven't realized that he was using female pronouns when referring to the pig until you talked about it during the last live and here, in your comment. I re-read this passage your referring to, and I just realized it sounds like a sexual assault... and that's really disturbing and messed up. It makes me feel sick.

Reading the last chapters, I kept in mind what you were saying about everything related to racism. I understood a bit more what you were saying about Golding toeing the line between being commentary on this behavior, and reinforcing those stereotypes of Natives people being violent, savages and blood-thirsty.
And I totally agree with you: we can understand a writer's motivation, and also be critical of the way they're doing it.

Same thing with this regression theme you were mentioning (I couldn't find the right word but I thought about it too). It would have been interesting to see it more developed, as it's probably a more accurate and realistic behavior for kids than them turning into violent, blood-thirsty people and killers (in my opinion).
But then, it's a book and it's also supposed to show something more deep than boys turning into killers because they stranded on an island with no adults !