Chuzzlewit, Chapters 33 - 35

[Tristram]

Dear Fellow-Pickwickians,

Chapters 33 to 35 not only mark the end of the American episodes but also indicate some change in Martin's character, but they also, once again, offer Dickens a good opportunity of venting his spleen on the U.S.

In Chapter 33, we find Martin suffering from a devastating fever and being nursed by Mark. Dickens tries to enliven this rather serious chapter by introducing - for no plot-related reason at all - Major Chollop, another most remarkable man of the country, and a bully; and finally Martin convalesces and Mark is taken ill. In the course of Martin's nursing his companion, he comes to think about his past, his character and his relationship with others, and he resolves to overcome his egoism in the future.

A question we might disucss here is how convincing you think this kind of change in Martin and the way it is described by the narrator.

Chapter 34 sees our two friends on their way home again, and as usual Dickens introduces characters to criticize them as representatives of the U.S. Some of the criticism is rather harsh, whereas other bits are very amusing. I hope there are not too ardent admirers of R.W. Emerson here because I must confess that I laughed out loud at Dickens's persiflage of Emerson's pretentious, and mannered style:

"'To be presented to a Pogram,' said Miss Codger, 'by a Hominy, indeed, a thrilling moment is it in its impressiveness on what we call our feelings. But why we call them so, or why impressed they are, or if impressed they are at all, or if at all we are, or if there really is, oh gasping one! a Pogram or a Hominy, or any active principle to which we give those titles, is a topic, Spirit searching, light abandoned, much too vast to enter on, at this unlooked-for crisis.'

'Mind and matter,' said the lady in the wig, 'glide swift into the vortex of immensity. Howls the sublime, and softly sleeps the calm Ideal, in the whispering chambers of Imagination. To hear it, sweet it is. But then, outlaughs the stern philosopher, and saith to the Grotesque, "What ho! arrest for me that Agency. Go, bring it here!" And so the vision fadeth.'"

In Chapter 35, finally, the boys arrive at home, and one of the first persons they encounter is ... Mr. Pecksniff. Here the reader eventually learns how Pecksniff has managed to achieve his reputation as an architect - simply by plagiarism.

Will this be the end of Pecksniff? Or the beginning of his downfall, at least - because maybe Martin will try to prove that the draught Pecksniff has used was made by his former pupil?

By the way, I'd like to throw in a nice little sentence that even Raymond Chandler would have envied Dickens: When describing the little room of the inn they are staying in, the narrator uses this funny simile,

"It had more corners in it than the brain of an obstinate man ..."

... splendid!

[Tristram]

It is also very ingenious how Mark summarizes Martin's proud and self-centred character as that of "a man as is his own great-coat and cloak, and is always a-wrapping himself up in himself." [at the beginning of Chapter 33]. Here Martin is described in very few words, and they are befitting.

[Kim]

Mr. Tapley is Recognised by Some Fellow-Citizens of Eden

Chapter 33

[Kim]

Martin is Much Gratified by an Imposing Ceremony

Chapter 35

[Peter]

Besides the pleasure of reading a good book, it's interesting to follow the patterns and uses of the book's literary devices. Who is consistently better at symbolism, foreshadowing and pathetic fallacy than Dickens?

A curse (or blessing) of my university education was being introduced to the writing of Joseph Campbell and I've leaned on him before to further enhance my reading of TOCS. Well, here we go again ... . I've mentioned how Martin and Mark seem to be following the early stages of the Monomyth and right on time, according to Campbell's theory, we have first Martin, and then Mark become gravely ill. This stage of the Monomyth is the "Decent into Hell" portion of the theory. Nursed back to health, Martin seems to emerge as a kinder, gentler and more intuitive person. Martin aids the ailing Mark back to health, seems to be much humbled by recent experiences, and wants to return home. Thus off go Mark and Martin, still encountering challenges, but much better at adapting and overcoming them. At the end of this reading session we find Mark and Martin back on English soil. Will they still continue to track Campbell's Momomyth pattern? We will see.

And yes I do seem to be rather hung up on a "Campbell" interpretation, but university wasn't cheap and I'm just trying to get (decades later) my money's worth ;>}

[Peter]

England looks good to Mark and Martin. London is "fresh and full of motion; airy, free and sparkling" and even "the canopy of smoke ... was more brighter and more beautiful to them than the richest silks of Persia." It is evident that the smoke and crowded streets of London are preferable to the fetid miasma of Eden.

It is interesting to note the bookends of style that Mark and Martin have been involved in. The fraud and deception of the supposed city of Eden that duped them in America works as a good counterbalance to the lies and deception of Pecksniff's theft of Martin's design for the grammar school.

It appears that nothing, in truth, is as it is advertised. Will Martin be able to regain his place and re-establish his place and clarity of vision?

[Kim]

Tristram wrote: "It is also very ingenious how Mark summarizes Martin's proud and self-centred character as that of "a man as is his own great-coat and cloak, and is always a-wrapping himself up in himself." [at th..."

I too absolutely loved this description of Martin, I was a devoted Mark fan after that. Oh, you have once again managed to use two words that, although I knew what they meant I have never heard anyone actually use in conversation: persiflage and befitting. I am disappointed however that both were only three syllables long. :-}

[Kim]

If Americans actually treated Dickens even close to how they treated Martin and Mark when he visited America, I am surprised he stayed here as long as he did. I would have been on the first boat I could find back to England. They can't go anywhere without someone bragging about what a wonderful country we have, which although I also think my country is wonderful, I wouldn't go up to every stranger I ever see and make sure I tell them that. As I said, I would have been on my way back to England, especially with all the constant disgusting spitting.

[Kim]

In Chapter 34 Mark and Martin have this conversation:

'Why, I was a-thinking, sir,' returned Mark, 'that if I was a painter and was called upon to paint the American Eagle, how should I do it?'

'Paint it as like an Eagle as you could, I suppose.'

'No,' said Mark. 'That wouldn't do for me, sir. I should want to draw it like a Bat, for its short-sightedness; like a Bantam, for its bragging; like a Magpie, for its honesty; like a Peacock, for its vanity; like a ostrich, for its putting its head in the mud, and thinking nobody sees it--'

'And like a Phoenix, for its power of springing from the ashes of its faults and vices, and soaring up anew into the sky!' said Martin. 'Well, Mark. Let us hope so.'

That got me wondering if we had other national symbols, like a national animal or tree or some such thing, so I looked it up. Our national animal is the same as the bird which seems unimaginative, our national tree is the oak and our national flower is the rose. I would have picked the turkey, everygreen (any one that looks good at Christmas) and the poinsettia. This got me wondering if other countries had national birds and here are some:

Australia is an emu
Italy and Germany is a golden eagle
United Kingdom is the European robin
Austria is the Barn swallow
Ireland doesn't have one (sorry Hilary)
And Peter, Canada says: None. See list of Canadian provincial and territorial birds

[Kim]

I love Mark's responses to Mr. Chollop, just another one of America's treasures:

'You won't half feel yourself at home in Eden, now?'

'No,' said Mark, 'I don't.'

'You miss the imposts of your country. You miss the house dues?' observed Chollop.

'And the houses--rather,' said Mark.

'No window dues here, sir,' observed Chollop.

'And no windows to put 'em on,' said Mark.

[Kim]

In Chapter 33 when Mark is sick this happens to Martin:

"It was natural for him to reflect--he had months to do it in--upon his own escape, and Mark's extremity. This led him to consider which of them could be the better spared, and why?"

This led me to consider how awful it would be to sit beside the bed of someone who may die and thinking which of us could be better spared find that the answer is "the other person", on the other hand it would also be awful if I could answer "oh myself definitely I am a much better person". Neither answer is pleasant for me.

[Peter]

Kim wrote: "In Chapter 34 Mark and Martin have this conversation:

'Why, I was a-thinking, sir,' returned Mark, 'that if I was a painter and was called upon to paint the American Eagle, how should I do it?'

..."

Well, trust Canada to leave a few blank spaces. If our money is any indication we have the beaver on our nickels, a caribou on our quarters, a loon on our dollar coins and a polar bear on our two dollar coins. In the old days we had a robin on our two dollar bill until it was pointed out the full (non Latin) name for a robin was the American robin. Needless to say, there was quite a flap (I couldn't help not using the word flap) over this in the press and government, but, like many things Canadian, we decided to do nothing until our paper currency was changed to coins.

We have the Canada Goose which is a rather large and majestic bird until a flock finds a place with lots of grass and nearby water. (parks, golf courses and the like) Then people learn to dislike it rather quickly. Lets just say the bird does not wear diapers ... but should.

[Kim]

Peter wrote: "Kim wrote: "We have the Canada Goose which is a rather large and majestic bird until a flock finds a place with lots of grass and nearby water."

Ugh. Whenever I see a flock of geese wondering around I cringe. They should definitely wear diapers, or have a designated bathroom area. I love that your one dollar coin is called the loonie by the way. As for robins, the bird that keeps flying into my window over and over and over again is a robin. Until you told me so I didn't know it was an American robin but I should have guessed. :-}

[Kim]

Thinking of national symbols got me to thinking of Pennsylvania symbols so I looked them up and was amazed to see what some of the things Pennsylvania has as a state symbol:

Animal White-tailed deer

Beautification and conservation plant - Penngift crownvetch

Beverage - Milk

Dog - Great Dane

Electric locomotive - GG1 4859

Fish - Brook trout

Flower - Mountain laurel

Fossil - Phacops rana

Game bird - Ruffed Grouse

Insect - Pennsylvania Firefly

Song- "Pennsylvania"

Steam locomotive - K4s 1361 and K4s 3750

Tree - Eastern hemlock

We actually have a state locomotive, dog, bug and fossil? I learn something odd every day. Now I have to go try to find our state song, I certainly never heard it before, I didn't even know it existed.

[Hilary]

Oops I was sure that I'd commented on this section and now it's all a bit of a hotchpotch! Maybe later...

[Hilary]

Thanks for the bird info, Kim. I tried several sites......no, no, none. I eventually stumbled on one for N.Ireland: a Tyler Dong. Don't even know if it exists!!!

Anyhow, in Ireland we don't so much NEED a flying National bird as we have more than our fair share of flying National flags, especially in N. Ireland!!! This little divided country is not content to have Irish and Unionist flags flying, but they have also added Palestinian and Isrseli flags; again segregated!!! So it begs the question: Are you Palestinian Irish or Israeli Northern Irish (more usually: are you a Palestinian Taig or an Israeli Prod? Oh yes, no one can do divisions quite like us. (We have a Carlsberg ad. here that always begins something like: If Carlsberg did friends, they'd probably be the best friends in the world. Here in N.I. substitute the punch line: they'd probably be the most divided friends in the world.) :D

[Tristram]

Kim wrote: "In Chapter 34 Mark and Martin have this conversation:

'Why, I was a-thinking, sir,' returned Mark, 'that if I was a painter and was called upon to paint the American Eagle, how should I do it?'

..."


That sounds interesting, Kim. As far as I know when it comes to a typically German tree, most people would probably name the oak as well. I also once read that in the 19th century the garden cornflower was the Prussian national flower.

[Kim]

Tristram wrote: "As far as I know when it comes to a typically German tree, most people would probably name the oak as well."

Yes, you have a tree and a flower. You're right about the oak, lots of us have the oak.


The oak is a common symbol of strength and endurance and has been chosen as the national tree of England, Estonia, France, Germany, Moldova, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, the United States, Basque Country, Wales and Serbia.

The cornflower (or cyani flower) became a German symbol for its Prussian blue color in the 19th century, although it is not as common as the Oak as a national plant.

[Miss Amelia]

So...Martin does appear to undergo a character change. I was expecting it to happen, but I was surprised that his change of heart was more the result of a (somewhat sudden) epiphany rather than a gradual change over time.

Maybe some might doubt his sincerity because it does seem so sudden? While I do think it's definitely possible for people to change their outlook on life suddenly, I think it's more common for the change to occur very, very gradually! :)

[Miss Amelia]

Oh, and what an interesting coincidence seeing Pecksniff strutting around London! The man actually BUILT something (wink, wink)

[Everyman]

Kim wrote: "...like a Magpie, for its honesty..."

The magpie is generally regarded as a sneak thief. No honesty there, as Mark well knows.

Rosseni even wrote an opera, La Gazza Landra (the Thieving Magpie).

Then there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxXJeF...

[Peter]

Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "So...Martin does appear to undergo a character change. I was expecting it to happen, but I was surprised that his change of heart was more the result of a (somewhat sudden) epiphany rather than a g..."


Hi Amelia

Dickens does seem to favour the rapid conversion of a character, the most popular would be, I imagine, Scrooge from A Christmas Carol.

As for Martin's rapid conversion it might be for practical plot reasons. Dickens is planning to bring both Mark and Martin back to England as much to rescue his flagging sales numbers as anything else. Dickens also needs to have a change in Martin's character to further the plot when they land back home.

For me, I'm interested in how the function of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth works in the novel. Naturally, I can't say anything now because we're not farther on in our reading yet ( ;>})but let's see what unfolds in the next few weeks.

[Miss Amelia]

You mean the Hero's Journey?
How interesting! I teach that concept to my students with THE HOBBIT, but I never considered looking at it using a Dickens book! Very cool.

[Hilary]

Ah the honourable, upstanding, righteous Pecksniff; and thief. He is truly despicable; cannot forgive his firing Tom only to save his own hide.

Jonas, though is an even baser character. What will happen to poor Merry?

[Tristram]

The Monomyth is indeed a very interesting pattern in terms of which to interpret Martin's journey. As a lover of Westerns I have seen it work quite often, although maybe not quite as often as one might suppose because it is mainly used in older WEsterns, e,g. "Dodge City" with Mr. Flynn but it can also be traced in those of my favourite director Anthony Mann.

However, we're not talking about films here, are we. With regard to MC, I think there are many aspects of the Monomyth, especially the descent into Hell, which goes by the way of Eden in this novel centring on the motif of hypocrisy and deceit. Apart from that some of the characters can even be seen as semi-mythical, even though this is probably just a coincidence.

The most obvious example is Mr. Scadder, whose two faces not only mark him off as two-faced and underhanded, but could also be a reference to Janus, the Roman god of beginnings and endings. Janus introduces Martin into Hell, which is the place where his old egoistic world-view ends and where he avails himself of the chance of making a new beginning by overcoming his major character flaw. - I'm sure Dickens, reading this, would probably say, "Now Mr. Shandy is going nuts ..."

At the same time, I have often wondered at Martin's passiveness. Although, of course, he takes the decision of investing their little money in the Eden enterprise, the American chapters place him mainly in the role of a mere observer. It's as though Dickens just needed a character to witness the pandemonium of his relentless satire; Martin and Mark are simply letting things happen to them, from time to time making a crisp comment.

As to the sudden nature of Martin's change, it appears quite clumsy even though we should not forget that Dickens covers several months during which Martin nurses his sick friend on two pages so that there is a big difference between discourse time and story time. Technically, it is not a sudden change but a slow development depending on Martin's introspection but for the reader all this happens rather quickly so that to us it seems as if some kind of switch had been flicked and a new Martin had been born.

A writer like Henry James would definitely have made more of it all; but still it remains interesting to see if Martin will remain true to his new resolutions or if there will be situations that put him to the test.

[Tristram]

Hilary wrote: "Ah the honourable, upstanding, righteous Pecksniff; and thief. He is truly despicable; cannot forgive his firing Tom only to save his own hide.

Jonas, though is an even baser character. What w..."

I still cannot understand why Pinch did not stand his ground during that infamous confrontation and expose Pecksniff for the mean villain he is. But then I'm not of a very meek character.

[Hilary]

Yes I agree, but then he IS Tom Pinch...'as a sheep before his shearers is silent...'

[Tristram]

He sure is a nice person, but also trying to my patience at times ;-)

[Miss Amelia]

Agreed. I can't help but be just a little disappointed when I get to a chapter that follows Pinch. He may be morally upstanding, but he's too meek for my taste.

Indefinitely prefer Mark Tapley to Pinch. :)

[Peter]

Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "You mean the Hero's Journey?
How interesting! I teach that concept to my students with THE HOBBIT, but I never considered looking at it using a Dickens book! Very cool."

Hi Amelia

Yes, The Hero's Journey concept is exactly what I'm referring to in my post. I'm glad to see that Tristram has jumped aboard in post 25 as well. If we track back to the beginning of the novel I think you will see Martin Jr. will fit quite comfortably into the first stages of Campbell's Cycle as well. Mary even gives him a ring for his journey to America!

No more can be said now as we must await further developments, but ...

Kate, another member of The Pickwick Club, who is a teacher in Australia, has interest in Campbell's concepts as well. She has not been posting for a few weeks, but her comments are also very insightful when Campbell is hovering over our heads. We had some fun earlier reading The OCS and watching Little Nell's journey with her grandfather. That ending was not so good for Nell.

Hopefully Tristram, Kate, myself and you and any other converts, even doubters, will jump aboard the good ship Campbell and see where it goes.

BTW How are your students settling in with The Hobbit and the Hero's journey?

[Miss Amelia]

Peter wrote: "Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "You mean the Hero's Journey?
How interesting! I teach that concept to my students with THE HOBBIT, but I never considered looking at it using a Dickens book!..."

It's definitely the most popular book I teach, by far. Most other teachers either use some classical myth or King Arthur-type story to teach the concept, but I try to put a novel in whenever I can. We do it from October-early November, which then gets the kids ready for the advanced vocab of Dickens for ACC.

In high school, I had an awesome teacher who tied in the Hero's Journey with LOTR (that was back when they were in theaters), so I guess my mind defaults on fantasy when I think of Campbell. But apparently traditional Westerns fit the concept nicely. I'd like to block the newest TRUE GRIT around the steps of the Hero's Journey, if I can find the time in the year to do it.

[Hilary]

Sad to say, I don't have a clue what you, Peter, Amelia et al. are talking about. I'm Irish you see! :D. Please though do not feel under any obligation to explain as I'm just happy to know that you understand.

[Peter]

Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "Peter wrote: "Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "You mean the Hero's Journey?
How interesting! I teach that concept to my students with THE HOBBIT, but I never considered looking at it using a..."

Amelia

For a "short story" Campbell I used Eudora Welty's "A Worn Path." It was a quick way to get the students' engines running.

[Peter]

Hilary wrote: "Sad to say, I don't have a clue what you, Peter, Amelia et al. are talking about. I'm Irish you see! :D. Please though do not feel under any obligation to explain as I'm just happy to know that y..."

Hilary

Oops! How could a Canadian not want to make you feel welcome ;>) I'd be happy to give you a quick peep at what were are rambling on about if you would like. Perhaps it would be better to do so on another thread of The Pickwick Club. Hopefully, Amelia might want to jump in as well. I promise that a wee chat about Campbell's Hero Cycle will be easy to get comfortable with. Now, if I could only find someone from Ireland to explain Joyce's Ulysses to me ...

[Hilary]

Haha, thanks Peter. I'm afraid I am a Joyce dunce - mea culpa.

[Tristram]

Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "Peter wrote: "Amelia, the pragmatic idealist wrote: "You mean the Hero's Journey?
How interesting! I teach that concept to my students with THE HOBBIT, but I never considered looking at it using a..."

Amelia,

whenever you have finished your text on TRUE GRIT, please let me know because not only am I an inveterate fan of the Western Movie but also of the Coens!

[Kim]

Hilary wrote: "Sad to say, I don't have a clue what you, Peter, Amelia et al. are talking about. I'm Irish you see! :D. Please though do not feel under any obligation to explain as I'm just happy to know that y..."

Don't feel bad not knowing what they are talking about, there's usually one or two on here each day that I don't understand, usually because of big, long words; but I don't let it bother me, it's like I'm hanging out in a room full of teachers. :-}

[Everyman]

Tristram wrote: "At the same time, I have often wondered at Martin's passiveness. Although, of course, he takes the decision of investing their little money in the Eden enterprise, ..."

But in a way, that's also passivity in that he doesn't go out assertively looking for a good investment, but passively lets the swindlers talk him into a lousy purchases because he's too passive to exert the energy to investigate.

[Tristram]

Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "At the same time, I have often wondered at Martin's passiveness. Although, of course, he takes the decision of investing their little money in the Eden enterprise, ..."

But in a w..."


That is a very good point, Everyman: Martin jumps at the first opportunity that presents itself to him instead of doing what probably nearly everybody would do, i.e. look about oneself and compare the different options one has. What struck me as decidedly odd was that he made a blind purchase instead of first going and see what Eden was really like. He might have scraped together the fare for an extra trip somehow. It is probably his idea that the whole world must be waiting for an architect like him that made him so gullible.

With regard to Jonas, the narrator explains how a selfish and distrustful man can be taken in by even greater a scoundrel than himself.

[Hilary]

Thanks Kim! That's reassuring. Now I can happily come out my dunce corner. Ah sure 'tis all great craic! (Our Irish word for 'fun' amongst other things!)

[Peter]

Hilary wrote: "Thanks Kim! That's reassuring. Now I can happily come out my dunce corner. Ah sure 'tis all great craic! (Our Irish word for 'fun' amongst other things!)"

Hilary/Kim

After so many traumatic experiences with teachers in your past, is it not refreshing to enjoy spending some time with a few whose worst fault is being, on occasion, just grumpy? ;>)

Now you have me worried that I have scarred 33 years worth of students with my enjoyment of Vic Lit.

[Kim]

Peter wrote: "After so many traumatic experiences with teachers in your past, is it not refreshing to enjoy spending some time with a few whose worst fault is being, on occasion, just grumpy?"

Oh, you are all definitely better than the teachers from my past. Do you know what I always wondered about my past teachers? At my high school there was the 100 hall, the 200 hall, the 300 hall, etc. Well us poor tortured students got into every room in every hall whether we wanted to or not (in my case not) except one in the 200 hall that had the words "Teachers Lounge" on the door. I've often wondered what they were doing behind that mysterious door. Were they thinking of new, extremely long words to use to confuse me even more? Or even longer math problems with not only numbers but also letters in them? Or even more ways to torture the poor students? Or do they just talk about the television programs of the night before? I'll never know.:-}

[Peter]

Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "After so many traumatic experiences with teachers in your past, is it not refreshing to enjoy spending some time with a few whose worst fault is being, on occasion, just grumpy?"

Oh,..."

Naturally, what happens in the Staff Room stays in the Staff Room. ;-}

[Everyman]

Kim wrote: "I've often wondered what they were doing behind that mysterious door. "

In my experience, a few of the grinds were actually marking papers, but the majority were smoking and gossiping about the students. And it was juicy gossip, too. English teachers especially can get some very juicy gossip from reading student papers and, especially, journals. If the students had realized what their teachers knew about them from putting all our heads together, they would have been appalled, and that was before Facebook.

[Tristram]

Yes, gossiping takes up a large portion of teachers' time in the staff room. It's only fair that not only students should make fun of their teachers but vice-versa. Then teachers also use some of the time to gossip about eacher other, let's not forget that ;-)

And they tend to interrupt each other, at least in Germany. This is my experience: I find it so annoying that whenever you talk to someone in the staff room, somebody else will come and barge into the conversation with something he or she happens to find more important. Teachers never hear anyone out!

[Hilary]

Haha Peter, never fear! After over 30 years of counselling I'm beginning to get over the trauma. Baby steps...

Ah there's nothing like good old-fashioned gossip, Everyman and Tristram. Oh and as for interrupting one another, that sounds just like our house. Too many with too many strong opinions that must be voiced 'Now!'

[Peter]

Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "After so many traumatic experiences with teachers in your past, is it not refreshing to enjoy spending some time with a few whose worst fault is being, on occasion, just grumpy?"

Oh,..."

Kim

What have you started? I've read the staff room confessions of Tristram and Everyman and the support of Hilary and it seems that I was in their staff rooms too. Perhaps at the SAME time! Yikes! Does that mean, in some parallel universe, I've gossiped with Everyman and Tristram while we were all on break/lunch?

If we were to write a sci-fi story could Everyman, Tristram and me actually be the same person?

Perhaps, I'll just go back to my Dickens now. ;>}

[Kim]

I am so disappointed to find after all these years of wondering that all you were doing in the staff room was gossiping. I could get enough of that at church. :-}

[Everyman]

Kim wrote: "I am so disappointed to find after all these years of wondering that all you were doing in the staff room was gossiping. I could get enough of that at church. :-}"

Ah, but in church you have to be careful what you say -- the big man is right there listening over your shoulder. But I'm not sure that even God is allowed in teacher's lounges.

[Hilary]

Haha Everyman, He would be well-advised to stay away.