Books 5 and 6

[David]

It looks like my attempt at naked beach ball cliche humor was a poor one and failed to get much of a response. So here are the more serious questions I was hoping it would lead to.

1. What is the significance of Odysseus' nakedness?
2. What is the significance of Nausicaa and her maid's nakedness?
3. What audience is Odyssey aimed at and what audience in particular was this scene aimed at and what kind of response was Homer going for? Male, female, young, mature, or old?
4. Is this meant to be an erotic or shocking scene at all, why or why not?
5. And what is the significance of the little poems describing those about to meet?

Artemis sometimes roams the mountains— Immense Taygetus, or Erymanthus— Showering arrows upon boars or fleet antelope, And with her play the daughters of Zeus [VI.105] Who range the wild woods—and Leto is glad That her daughter towers above them all With her shining brow, though they are beautiful all—

and

A weathered mountain lion steps into a clearing, [VI.130] Confident in his strength, eyes glowing. The wind and rain have let up, and he’s hunting Cattle, sheep, or wild deer, but is hungry enough To jump the stone walls of the animal pens.
Lombardo Translation

[Lia]

David wrote: "What is the significance of Odysseus' nakedness?"

My first (rather uncharitable) thought is that he sounds like those guys who "accidentally" sends you nudes, text to apologize for "wrong recipient!" And then awkwardly follows up with, "now that you've seen it, and I'm SO embarrassed ... but, hey, listen, I've noticed you look like a palm tree ..." (potential winner of worst pick up line ever.)


But then Odysseus' been through the "deep clean" laundry cycle for two days, Emily Wilson calls it an "ordeal" (sounds religious.) He crawled into a forest and emerged a hungry lion (he fasted). He just left behind 7 years of dormant, not-dead, not-alive existence.

Pardon my Freudian slant, I’m so embarrassed, but this sounds like some kind of symbolic rebirth, especially since this chapter ends with Odysseus entering Athena’s temple, after “cleansing” and fasting for a few days.

So this seems to signal a new beginning, an end to his “old self”. Calypso literally means “to conceal,” he was hidden from the world before, forgotten by all. Gods see through everything, even when you’re “concealed” in Ogygia. They can “hear” your unspoken thoughts. (river god “hears” his prayer “in his heart.”) Covering up is pointless when you are with the gods.

Ino also gave Odysseus an invisibility cloak, I don’t think it’s in his possession anymore, but again, the symbolism of emerging from hiddenness, from being unseen, is clear.

In front of other humans, nakedness makes you incredibly self-conscious. He’s seen, he’s self-aware that he’s being seen, and he needs to package his presentation. He’s learning what it takes to reintegrate into human society, the next phase of his life.

It’s interesting to see Thomas’ interpretation of the palm tree scene, because I interpreted that in the completely opposite direction. I don’t think Odysseus is actually fearful of Nausicaa, he’s just saying that to manipulate her — before that he wondered which one should he choose — touch her knees, or charm her with rhetorics. He chose to charm her, and puts on a show, his thoughts and intentions hidden.

Homer calls him a “mountain lion” that “trusts its strength.” His hunger “drives it” to come upon the girls. Which seems to imply Odysseus had other options too. He could choose to act the beast. This reminds me of how Odysseus was not seen in the first four books, and Telemachus had to imagine what Odysseus is, by looking at what he is not (Not Menelaus, not Nestor.) Here, Odysseus has to figure out what it is to be human, by deciding against what it is not (neither beast nor god.)

[Lia]

Rex wrote: "" In Homer’s poem, Odysseus grounds his argument that Nausicaa might be one of the immortals on a logically impossible non sequitur. He declares that he once saw something like her, a young shoot o..."

This one is talking about Phaedrus right? I remember having read this, I just don't remember what it is about (story of my life.)

Thanks for both of the quotes, I'm completely floored. It's amazing what they can read into, I'm simultaneously skeptical and awed.

[Thomas]

Lia wrote: "It’s interesting to see Thomas’ interpretation of the palm tree scene, because I interpreted that in the completely opposite direction. I don’t think Odysseus is actually fearful of Nausicaa, he’s just saying that to manipulate her..."

I think you're right about that. Wilson's translation makes his manipulation clear -- it's far more subtle in the Greek, just one word, kerdaleon, meaning crafty or wily -- but it changes everything. (Sachs translates "carefully," which isn't sufficient.) It's hard to see Odysseus as "reborn" after this. He's the same man, just in a slightly vulnerable state.

[Lia]

I don't think any rebirth or deep-clean cycle could wash away the trickster in Odysseus. I suppose Freudian terminology was a bad idea.

I was thinking more in terms of Persephone (and vegetations) reemerging after being "hidden" over winter, or a soldier returning to his senses after a long bout of PTSD funk.

So what is changed is his relationship with the "cosmos" (? Not sure if that's the right term, by that I mean his relationship with Gods and men and whole "history" of the four ages etc.) He was consorting with gods and goddesses before; he was promised immortality, he's leaving that "hero age" stuff behind and resurfaced in the iron age.

[Susan]

Lia wrote: "David wrote: "What is the significance of Odysseus' nakedness?"

My first (rather uncharitable) thought is that he sounds like those guys who "accidentally" send you nudes, text to apologize for "w..."

I was thinking “rebirth”, too, Lia, but I like your description of a new beginning better — a return to human society after seven years (another good round number) with Calypso.

Surely, there’s a reason Athena picks Nausikaa, a young woman dreaming of her marriage, to meet Odysseus, and I’m thinking there’s a deeper reason than because Nausikaa has some fresh laundry that will fit him. Maybe it is because Athena is a virgin goddess that she picks Nausikaa to be her representative, to aid Odysseus and to give him good advice.

Erotic? Odysseus’s focus seems to be elsewhere, but certainly there are undertones, and Nausikaa is attracted to him. But he doesn’t seem here to be focusing on anything but how to get on with his journey.

[Ignacio]

Thomas wrote: "Odysseus also distrusts Leukothea, who offers him her shawl of immortality. He says he won't use it until the last minute, when his raft is smashed to bits, in case the shawl is just another one of the gods' tricks. On the other hand, he openly prays to the river god without being prompted, with no sense of disbelief or distrust, and his prayer is answered."

I wonder if we are meant to take Odysseus's distrust as a sign of his cunning and prudence, and it is thus something the gods actually admire, even as they gently chastise him. It's interesting that Telemachus is presented as being "his father's son" in so many ways that gods and mortals immediately recognize.

[Tamara]

I think Athena picks Nausicaa because she is young, naive, and impressionable. She plants ideas of marriage in her head in the dream and sends her off. She orchestrates it so Odysseus looks more "god-like" after bathing, and Nausicaa takes one look at him and thinks of marriage.

Athena arranges it all so Nausicaa willingly helps Odysseus because she thinks of him as a potential spouse. And Odysseus succeeds in working his charm on a young, impressionable girl. A more seasoned woman, for example, Nausicaa's mother, may not have been quite so susceptible to his smooth-talking words.

I think this is just another example of Athena and Odysseus using people as a means to an end.

[Ignacio]

Patrice wrote: "anyone who has been to greece is struck by the beautiful blue of the ocean. it is exceptional but not at all like wine. maybe at sunset the change is striking.. that royal blue sea surrounds everyt..."

I never thought about this too much before, I just took it to mean "the wine-like sea" in a very broad/vague way... I guess in my mind I imagined they meant the sea at night, or in the early hours of the morning when the ships take off... But I find the whole discussion of color that is going on fascinating!

[Christopher]

I didn't think your reflections on this episode were far fetched, Lia.

I did notice the maidens seemed a little more interested in catching a glimpse of a naked man, than the naked man was interested in letting it all hang out.

For all its nobility (the princess and the hero), there is something bourgeois about this episode. Not just washing day, but especially when Nausica contrives to maintain respectability rather than simply give this wild stranger a ride in her dune buggy.

[Lia]

Christopher wrote: "I did notice the maidens seemed a little more interested in catching a glimpse of a naked man, than the naked man was interes..."

Oh I agree. I just find it funny that Homer came up such contrived plot twist to strip Odysseus in front of some maidens.

I hope they named their beachball "Wilson."

[Lia]

Susan wrote: "Surely, there’s a reason Athena picks Nausikaa, a young woman dreaming of her marriage, to meet Odysseus, and I’m thinking there’s a deeper reason than because Nausikaa has some fresh laundry that will fit him."

Like Tamara said, Athena put the marriage anticipation in her dream, and essentially magicked her into facing Odysseus when the other maidens were running.

I think Athena picked Nausicaa simply because she is the princess of Scheria. Remember Zeus' plan for Odysseus:

Go tell the goddess
our fixed intention: that Odysseus
must go back home—he has endured enough.
Without a god or human as his guide,
he will drift miserably for twenty days
upon a makeshift raft, and then arrive
at fertile Scheria. The magical
Phaeacians will respect him like a god,
and send him in a ship to his dear homeland,
with gifts of bronze and heaps of gold and clothing,
more than he would have brought with him from Troy
if he had come directly, with his share
of plunder.

That's Zeus' "lot" for Odysseus. To get to that, he must shipwreck and wash up on this Island, and he must somehow impress the ladies (at least based on Nausicaa's leaked intel.)

[Thomas]

Lia wrote: "I was thinking more in terms of Persephone (and vegetations) reemerging after being "hidden" over winter, or a soldier returning to his senses after a long bout of PTSD funk.
"

This is the direction I was going in, but now I'm not so sure. But it might be that Odysseus is not so sure either, but psychoanalyzing Odysseus is bound to be a tricky business. Wilson's translation leans heavily toward the notion that Odysseus is manipulating Nausicaa for his own ends, and that's part of it, but it's only part of it. Odysseus is also concerned that might anger Nausicaa by violating social norms, so he speaks to her gently (the term for gentleness, μειλίχιον, is used three times in six lines; at the same time, the term for craftiness or advantage, κερδαλέον or κέρδιον, is used twice). It may be simply that Odysseus is in a precarious position and he needs help from an unlikely source. I guess we'll see soon if he has any further difficulties adjusting to social norms.

[David]

Could there be some shame for Odysseus in seeking help from a woman, who is not a god?

Could the little poem. . .

[VI.130] Confident in his strength. . .and he’s hunting Cattle, sheep, or wild deer, but is hungry enough To jump the stone walls of the animal pens.

. . .be interpreted as Odysseus being strong enough to be self-reliant, but desperate enough to take an easier road and ask for help from Nausicaa?

[Lia]

One interesting idea is that Homer is adapting battle-scene patterns for an unusual scenario:

In many ways, the situation on the shore of Scherie falls outside the parameters of what is normal in Homeric epic and the world it describes. There is no obvious place in the structure of things for the encounter between a naked hero and a marriageable young girl. Accordingly, there is no type scene that could unproblematically capture the situation. What we find, instead, is an adaptation of familiar patterns for the purpose of describing an unconventional scene in all its danger and absurdity. The encounter between Nausicaa and Odysseus is cast in the form of a typical battle scene: Odysseus approaches like a lion, ‘trusting in his strength’, a typical image of the Iliadic warrior. He is ‘ready to face the girls’, just as his counterpart Nausicaa is ready to ‘face’ him, thanks to the ‘courage’ inspired by Athena. These elements of a traditional battle scene capture well some aspects of the situation: like an Iliadic warrior, Odysseus is in mortal danger; he must turn the encounter to his advantage or else perish miserably on a foreign shore. Yet, there are other ways in which the traditional register is jarring, even comical: Odysseus, the great warrior, is ‘ready to face the girls’!

It goes without saying that it is not in Odysseus’ interests to kill Nausicaa; on the contrary, he must persuade her that she has nothing to fear: this is hard to do when you look like a ravenous lion. The dramatic flight of her maids raises the spectacle of Odysseus’ failure and leads the hero to consider supplication as a last resort. In Homer, the defeated warrior typically supplicates his opponent in a desperate (and usually unsuccessful) bid to escape death. The ironies of supplication in this different context are obvious: Odysseus thinks about it because he appears too strong, not because he is about to be killed. Yet, in a less direct sense, his life does depend on Nausicaa’s good will. The problem, for him, is that supplication may not be appropriate in the circumstances: he realises, for example, that the girl may not like it if he touches her knees. In the end, Odysseus decides to adapt the traditional supplication scene: he speaks as a suppliant, but talks to her from a distance.
Source: Homer: The Resonance of Epic

I would tentatively add that a young girl playing with her companions is a typical prelude to divine rape (I don’t know if this is anachronistic though, I know it’s very common in later Greek plays and also Roman depictions of Greek myths, I’m not sure if this was already an established “motif” in Homer’s time.) Zeus did decree that Odysseus be “respected like a god” when he’s in Scheria. It sounds almost as though Homer is setting audiences up to expect a brutal rapey confrontation, instead, we get supplication.

Speaking of, Artemis had a very similar encounter with a different outcome — she and her consorts were bathing naked in a spring, when pious Actaeon walked in on them. According to Ovid, Artemis (Diana) transformed Actaeon into a stag for “watching” (?) her nudity, and he was almost immediately killed by his own hounds — extremely brutal divine punishment for unintentional peeping. Again, I don’t know if a similar myth predates Homer, so I don’t know if the Artemis reference might set audiences up to anticipate some kind of confrontation.

Nevertheless, I love to think of this as a battle of wit, elevating Nausicaa to Odysseus’ equal. She lost the battle of wit, his (or rather, Athena’s) agenda is now in motion. The Trojan Horse (TM) got its ticket into the city of Scheria. Even if that’s the case, I love the idea that Homer is treating this young, naive, sheltered girl as Odysseus’ worthy opponent in a “battle.” And Nausicaa still became famous, without being abducted.

(view spoiler)[ I also think false supplication as a way to gain entrance into a social group, and eventually earning a way to the top, will become a repeated scenario later in the epic. So this could be a “practice run” before the “second sailing.” (hide spoiler)]

[Ian]

Lia wrote: "I don’t know if a similar myth predates Homer ..."

You're not alone. There are a lot of myths which one might assume that "Homer" knew -- that is, were already part of the tradition -- and just didn't mention, but proving it is another. Unfortunately, my best examples involve spoilers, as they come up (or fail to come up where they might be expected) in later books

Including a girl being carried off from among her friends, although this is an "arranged marriage" about which she was never consulted. The tale shows up explicitly in the second of the so-called Homeric Hymns, but whether it is part of the background to the epics is probably anyone's guess.

[John]

I had a slightly different take on the beach scene. That Odysseus is naked seems entirely to be expected after what he has come through. By contriving to make the girls naked as well does Homer lower them so that Odysseus and they can interact as equals? I think the dream is fairly common in which one is in a social setting and then discovers that one is naked - being the only one naked is awkward and vulnerable. Odysseus is already vulnerable, so is this a way to even the scales a bit in Odysseus' favor?

[Rafael]

John wrote: "I had a slightly different take on the beach scene. That Odysseus is naked seems entirely to be expected after what he has come through. By contriving to make the girls naked as well does Homer low..."

That take is an interesting one.

[Ian]

Lia wrote: "the podcast that Ashley shared in message 86 explicitly compared Ancient Greek's missing blue to what we know about Eskimo's sensitivity to blue (well, shades of white.)"

Picking up the problems of translating color words:

The BBC has posted (well, re-posted) an interesting brief discussion of the matter. It argues that our color vocabulary limits (or expands) the number of colors we can distinguish:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180...

[Lia]

John wrote: "I had a slightly different take on the beach scene. That Odysseus is naked seems entirely to be expected after what he has come through. By contriving to make the girls naked as well does Homer low..."

I've been thinking Scheria is strangely Edenic, in a prelapsarian sense. That is probably more suitable for book 7/8 discussion.

But looking back -- both Odysseus and Nausicaa are naked, Nausicaa cannot comprehend the possibility that a stranger man that looks like a hungry lion might harm her. She's also completely devoid of self-consciousness about nudity. Whereas Odysseus, having acquired self-knowledge, is now all dodgy about his dangly bits, and tries hard to assure her that he isn't going to rape her (I assume the Artemis allusion implies he is no threat to her virginity.)

Not sure why the Old Testament might have comparable scenes, but in hindsight, that seems really obvious (to me.) Odysseus knows shame, unfallen Nausicaa does not.

[Kerstin]

Lia wrote: "Odysseus knows shame, unfallen Nausicaa does not."

I am rather reluctant to over-sexualize the scene despite the sensual overtones. The women went to wash clothes and bathed. At the same time Odysseus is in a predicament, he lost his clothes in the storm and needs help. As a matter of fact, he has no possessions at all at this point. That's a pretty humbling situation to be in. I didn't get the impression he wanted to appear threatening to them. All he wants is clothes. Can't blame a guy for that.

[Lia]

Sorry Kerstin, I meant to say Odysseus is self-aware and anticipates that his appearance will be alarming to the girls.

Nausicaa, because inexperienced and sheltered in a Edenic place, turns out to be completely unconcerned about her own nudity, or Odysseus'.

[Kerstin]

Lia wrote: "Sorry Kerstin, I meant to say Odysseus is self-aware and anticipates that his appearance will be alarming to the girls.

Nausicaa, because inexperienced and sheltered in a Edenic place, turns out t..."

No need to apologize :)

[David]

Kerstin wrote: At the same time Odysseus is in a predicament, he lost his clothes in the storm and needs help. As a matter of fact, he has no possessions at all at this point. That's a pretty humbling situation to be in."

It is a humbling situation, but yet Odysseus is,

[6.130] Confident in his strength. . .

Is this one of Odysseus' superpowers, or could it possibly be a fault if it is in excess of what the situation calls for? (Aristotle is still stuck in my head).

[John]

Lia wrote: "John wrote: "I had a slightly different take on the beach scene. That Odysseus is naked seems entirely to be expected after what he has come through. By contriving to make the girls naked as well d..."

Not sure I can get there - the challenge, weapons of war, and the drinking all seem somewhat less than Edenic to me.