"Shadow Man" by Melissa Scott (BR)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

This is the second Inclusive Book Bingo Buddy read of the month as we selected the group read for our first pick.

You do not have to participate in the Bingo challenge to join in the buddy read! However, if you do, this satisfies the "Intersex" square.

Please list what chapter you're on and use spoiler tags for any specifics.

[Meredith]

My copy is on its way!

[Anna]

I want to start this, but I'm feeling so tired and cranky about everything, I don't want to ruin the book. I think I'll read some (hopefully) fun novellas first, and get to this once my mood improves.

[Ashley in Wonderland]

I want to read this one too!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Mine should be in shortly, but I'm a little nervous now...

[Ashley in Wonderland]

Why nervous? Mine’s on its way too.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Just some of the things I've heard about it in other threads. Hoping the writing is better than it sounds!

[Ashley in Wonderland]

I think I’ve seen that too. The blurb sounds really interesting though!

[Anna]

I read the first part (Warreven) of the first chapter last night. I wasn't going to start it yet, but I wanted to see what it's like. If I hadn't been so tired, I'd have continued. So I guess I'm reading this one next, I'm all over the place.

It starts out a bit confusing, but I got the hang of things fairly quickly.

(view spoiler)[Does it bother anyone else that the females are referred to as mirrim, which is the feminine version of mir? What I'm trying to say is that instead of having two separate words, the ladies just get the male word with a feminine ending. But if I understand correctly, we're starting out on the planet where they only have two legal genders, so perhaps they're very old fashioned in other ways, too. Although they are discussing Warreven choosing a gender, so it doesn't sound very close minded. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Allison wrote: "Just some of the things I've heard about it in other threads. Hoping the writing is better than it sounds!"

I'm going to go ahead and assume this is in reference to my comments on the cliché thread. lol. I assure you, the writing is much better than those two clichés. It got much better by the end. You should definitely give it a shot as I ended up really liking the story.

I've finished the book, so consider the following spoilers for the whole book.

(view spoiler)[I really did end up liking this story. There are obviously a lot of parallels to the struggles of folks of different sexualities in our own society.

The hyperlumin as a mutagenic was an interesting plot device. Obviously we don't get any hard science surrounding it, but it's effects helped drive the point of the story.

I loved all the cultural background that we get of Hara. The Rana in particular was really fascinating. In such a traditional culture, having protests be completely acceptable as long as they are basically a performance is really interesting.

The loyalty that Warreven felt for Temelathe and Tendlathe also made for some interesting contrast. Ze* grew up with Tendlathe but how can you still be loyal to someone who doesn't think you're a person? Tendlathe's character was a great counterpoint to Tatian I think. Tatian represented for Warreven the kind of support that ze should have been able to look to Tendlathe for.

I have a lot more thoughts, but I need time to process. I'm really looking forward to seeing what everyone else thought.

I will say that I was disappointed that the ending was left so wide open. I wanted to see more of Warreven and Tatian. I wanted to see Warreven lead the revolution that ze started, for zim to become the representation of Agede that the people were starting to see zim as.

*(I'm using z, because I don't know how to make that fancy little mark from the book.) (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

This is ridiculous. I've had so much to do this past week, I haven't really been able to read at all. I finally sat down to continue this yesterday, and I can't remember who some of the side characters are. I'm still enjoying it, but I wonder if I'm missing something by not rereading parts. I just don't know which parts I should reread, and I don't really want to read all of it again. I'm hoping it doesn't matter if I don't remember all the details of all the side characters.

I really like the language on Hara, especially the word mosstaas. I tried googling it to see if it's actual slang, but the first hits I got were of "Kate Moss taas ilman rintsikoita" which is Finnish for "Kate Moss without a bra again" :D

[Kristin B.]

Anna wrote: "I really like the language on Hara, especially the word mosstaas. I tried googling it to see if it's actual slang, but the first hits I got were of "Kate Moss taas ilman rintsikoita" which is Finnish for "Kate Moss without a bra again" :D ..."

The internet is so helpful! lol

[Anna]

I've finished.

(view spoiler)[There was a comment by Warreven that I was a bit confused by. I thought I'd marked it on my Kindle, but I can't find the note. I think it was in chapter 5 or 6. Warreven was thinking about someone, and the comment was something like "I'd pursue her if she was a man, or maybe if I was a woman." What I'm confused by is how Warreven being a woman would make her want to sleep with a woman, if as someone who (at this point in the book) identifies as a man he wants to sleep with men. Does this mean that being gay equals wanting to sleep with people who are of the same sex/gender as you are, regardless of what your sex/gender is? I mean yes that's what it means, but if you change sex or change how you identify, how does that change who you love?

I won't go into gender neutral pronouns once again, I think I've gone on about that far too many times already, but in short this book made me think about how much I prefer gender neutral language. It also made me reflect on the fact that maybe it's easy for me to want that, since I've never had my gender questioned. I've never had to explain what I am or defend my gender identity. So of course it's not something that's important to me. It might be very important to someone who hasn't been as fortunate, and I wouldn't want to take that away from them. I still prefer the gender neutral way, but I'm aware that there are good reasons for wanting to have new and different pronouns.

Kristin B. wrote: "I will say that I was disappointed that the ending was left so wide open."

I liked the ending! It was in tune with reality, fixing these things isn't easy, so we can't expect to see it all nicely wrapped up. The work will go on, and people will still get hurt and feel helpless. But hopefully things are moving in the right direction.
(hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Anna wrote: "I've finished.

(view spoiler)[ There was a comment by Warreven that I was a bit confused by. I thought I'd marked it on my Kindle, but I can't find the note. I think it was in chapter 5 or 6. Warreven was thinking

I think that the woman was also gay. So she would not have wanted a relationship with Warreven as a man. At least, that's how I read it. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Kristin, (view spoiler)[that kind of makes sense, but from what I can remember it sounded like Warreven was thinking (s)he would want her if (s)he was a woman. But since I couldn't double check, it's possible I remember incorrectly. In any case, you're most likely right that's what the comment meant. (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

Finally getting to this and making some progress. I think the author is doing a good job presenting all the genders and the social complexities within and between the societies. Thank goodness for the glossaries.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I agree that it feels very integrated and carefully introduced, but I'm kind of annoyed at the gender/sex interplay. I've finished Chapter 3.

(view spoiler)[ From what I can tell, Hara has the full complement of sexes, and only two genders, which are generally selected by the individual, rather than the society. We get some hints that some families choose operations to align their children with a gender and I think the considerations there are interesting. But other than that, it seems like being gay is much more of an issue on the planet than choosing a gender, even if it doesn't align with the parts you have.

Offworld, we have five "genders" but they seem to correspond to your genitalia and chromosomes. It's at once great to see the other examples of human configurations "on screen" and frustrating that apparently gender as social construct is completely glossed over, as are several other body types we know to be common. What does this world consider those who are XXY? Who are XY with a receptor that doesn't accept a certain protein and therefore gives all appearance of a female until puberty? All sorts of pretty common alternate forms that are just swept away, and whole identities reduced to a genetic test and what's in your pants. (hide spoiler)]

[Ashley in Wonderland]

Meredith wrote: "Thank goodness for the glossaries. "

That’s what I was going to say.

33% percent (chapter 5) - I’m finding it a little hard to follow along; I don’t know if it’s the writing, or the story line, or all the unknown words, or maybe it’s just me. It is very interesting though, and I already feel for these characters who have been forced into gender labels they aren’t comfortable with, or against their will. I sense (and am hoping for) a revolution!

[Nicol]

I also found it at times hard to follow. Does anyone else feel like it would have made more sense to just cut out all the harvest/trade? It was a little confusing, possibly be interesting but I was trying to follow all the gender/sexuality/sex nuisance. I guess the author uses it as plot device to introduce off worlders to the indigene and highlight the differences in culture but I did find it confusing.

[Nicol]

Allison wrote: "I agree that it feels very integrated and carefully introduced, but I'm kind of annoyed at the gender/sex interplay. I've finished Chapter 3.

From what I can tell, Hara has the full complement of..."

I did find it disappointing that genitalia=gender identity. I always find it interesting when authors imagine a future where maybe things are a different but still cannot think beyond the constructs of our present notions on gender and sexuality. I like the idea of 9 sexualities and 5 genders but how can they're not be people that are defined by society as on of the 5 types but identify as another? I like how The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet imagines different beings with different ideas about intimacy or how our group read of The Black Tides of Heaven have a choice around or after we think of as puberty. Identity is complicated and that is why a binary system never works, and even a quinary system can be confining.

[Anna]

re: Allison's comment

(view spoiler)[I'd like to believe that if this book was written today, it would take these things into consideration. I can't remember if the non-Harans discussed gender issues in a way that made it obvious that that they're not open to other gender identities. We were focusing on Hara where they were very hung up on two genders, so I didn't feel like it needed to take the discussion yet another step further. I mean they were trying to get them to acknowledge physical sex, and maybe gender would be the next step after that. (hide spoiler)]

[Ashley in Wonderland]

I’ve decided to give up on this one. It’s interesting but not enough to make me want to keep reading. I agree with Nicol that I may have liked it better without all the trade business. And Re: Anna’s gender pronouns comment - I dunno, I just don’t like labels. I too have never had to defend my identity so I understand the importance of different labels/pronouns but maybe I just don’t appreciate them like I should; but I just feel like once you start labeling things you’ll just have to keep adding more and more labels, that it never ends. So with all the different labels and pronouns and words I had to keep looking up, this book was a little too confusing and a little too boring for me.

[Meredith]

Well, I finished this the other day and I've been thinking about it a lot since. Like others, I wish it had been more exciting, or that more happened early on to pull the reader along. Books with a lot of politics are not my bag at all, but I'm glad I slogged through it. I think the book is more of a slow burn of character development than an outright revolution, though the one can lead to the other.

(view spoiler)[Towards the end, Tatian says to Warreven that the ranas act within constraints of the Haran culture and can't ultimately change things via that medium. Warreven has also been acting within the constraints of the culture by accepting and acting as male. While ze does fight for change and equity for the odd-bodied, at another level nothing is actually changing. I think that the book winds up being about Warreven realizing ze has to fully accept and present as a herm before ze can move forward and make change at a larger cultural level. When ze's in the hospital and says to Tatian, "I'm a herm," that is very big step for zim. Even though everyone *knows* this, Warreven had to choose it and accept it for zimself. Ze then is able to personify the cultural icon of Agede but as a herm, which then spurs Harans to move towards the changes they want.

I think there is a lot more nuanced understanding of sex and gender today than in 1995 when this book was written. Likewise, today an author might not use "HIV" (at least not by name) as the terrifying disease that is used as an excuse to control inter-planetary movements. (hide spoiler)]