Warhost of Vastmark [Apr 15, 2018]

[Daniel]

I guess the issue is do you agree or disagree with what Arithon does? Cuz I don’t see how anyone likes Lysaer, unless you are a sociopath or a sadist!

[Laura]

@Olivia - I cannot see things from Lysaer's side because to me he seems to have totally succumbed to madness. 'Batshit crazy' is the phrase I used before I think and it fits him like a glove. At this point I doubt there is any Lysaer left in control at all - it's only the curse that's driving.
But there is that scene in the temple where (view spoiler)[the curse separates from him and we get the 2 personalities - I believe one to be the curse driven side and the other the only Lysaer side. (hide spoiler)] And because of that scene I cannot really hate him, Despite all the horrible things he does. He is like a puppet on strings and most important of all, he has both the right puppeteer and the perfect audience. The curse is driving him and the nobles and warriors surrounding him support it. I doubt people like Diegan would relent in their hatred toward Arithon even if Lysaer would all of a sudden wake up and tell him: Arithon is cool! There's no more need to fight! I made a mistake!

But from the time Dakar voiced that doubt that (view spoiler)[Lysaer may have had reason to welcome the curse. (hide spoiler)] I am waiting to see if at all Lysaer escapes the curse how he would behave at that time. And if then, without the curse to drive him, he does everything same way, my hate for the lovely golden prince would have no limits. Until then however I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt.

@Daniel - I believe it is human nature to raise the expectations from person to person. Lysaer became a monster and we expected nothing less from him so every small kindness he does or every little detail that may prove him "better than a monster" would be appreciated.
Arithon on the other hand proved to us his compassion and kindness over and over so we learned to expect nothing less from him. That's why when Haven comes we are horrified and point the finger and ask why (view spoiler)[didn't he save at least a few. Why did he have to kill everybody? (hide spoiler)]
That's why, even if the tally is low, compared to that of Lysaer, Arithon's part hurts us more. Because we expected more from him. At least that's how I see it.

[Daniel]

@Laura yes but wasn’t the whole idea to do something so horrorific that Lysaer would have to quit and go home thereby saving countless thousands?

[Laura]

It cannot be that Arithon does everything perfect either. I love the man! Really, I do! But still we have to remember that he too has the curse riding him. He is fighting it and recognises the need of help when doing it but as he himself admitted one time, which actions and thoughts are affected by the curse he himself is not sure.

[Daniel]

Totally agree. Not trying to be an Arithon apologist, rather trying to have the ethical discussion Janny asked us to have...lmao

[Laura]

Daniel wrote: "@Laura yes but wasn’t the whole idea to do something so horrorific that Lysaer would have to quit and go home thereby saving countless thousands?"

he could have done that and left a few (view spoiler)[more wounded alive also. At least the news would have reached Lysaer that way. (hide spoiler)] That was a bad move if you ask me. And I believe the curse may have had a hand in that decision. After all, wouldn't it have been enough just to prove he is unconquerable?

[Laura]

Daniel wrote: "I guess the issue is do you agree or disagree with what Arithon does? Cuz I don’t see how anyone likes Lysaer, unless you are a sociopath or a sadist!"

LOL. I completely agree. No one sane would like Lysaer at this point.

[Daniel]

Hmm I looked at that differently. (view spoiler)[Because he personally healed 25 people and was in emotional agony I gave him a pass on the slaughter of the rest(after finding out he did it to save 30k or so others). (hide spoiler)] I can easily see your point of view.

[Laura]

Daniel wrote: "Hmm I looked at that differently. [spoilers removed] I can easily see your point of view."

Oh! But I gave him a pass too! And I love him just the same! I was just trying to point out why Haven affected me so much more. As well as the fact that Arithon as a human may not be perfect. What he did was with a good intention and his grief after that more than proved it. It also proved that he absolutely believed there was only that single way. And the (view spoiler)[healing of the 25 - I viewed it as his personal private hell. He made himself heal them so that he remembers and he suffers. So NO, in the end I don't blame him at all for what he did, but I do regret he didn't see another way. (hide spoiler)]

[Olivia]

I don't know, personally I feel like he absolutely had to- spoiler for chapter 7 and 8 (view spoiler)[-do that thing where he killed EVERYBODY to make sure that Lysaer definitely understands there will be no mercy and he needs to stop and retreat. Any additional survivor would lead to Lysaer maybe still coming. I do agree though, then word might have actually reached Mr. Golden Hair. (hide spoiler)]

Edit to clarify:

Spoiler again for chapter 7 and 8 (view spoiler)[Basically you only kill 450 and leave 50 to survive and then it was for nothing. That would be 450 wasted deaths. But by doing tabula rasa, maybe just maybe the message will work and none of those deaths will have been for nothing. Basically the idea behind it. Which I can understand and while it was a punch in the gut, it did not make me think Arithon should have done that differently. (hide spoiler)]

[Olivia]

Also, can I just say: this is my favourite buddy read I've participated in, in all my life! Thank you lovely people!

[Daniel]

Well this was my first buddy read so it was my favorite as well :) Thanks to everyone for putting up with the newbie!

[Laura]

Olivia wrote: "I don't know, personally I feel like he absolutely had to- spoiler for chapter 7 and 8 [spoilers removed]

Edit to clarify:

Spoiler again for chapter 7 and 8 [spoilers removed]"

Damn it! If you put it that way I'm crossing over to your side!

I agree (view spoiler)[the Tabula rasa would have worked much better than the unconquerable but I would still prefer the latter. (hide spoiler)]

My favourite BR also! I have had a fabulous time and thank you everyone! (*hugs and kisses*)

@Daniel - It was great having you here and stick with us! Next BR you won't be a newbie anymore. Just one of us. :)

[Choko]

Daniel wrote: "Well this was my first buddy read so it was my favorite as well :) Thanks to everyone for putting up with the newbie!"

You had better join us for the rest of the books!!! We are in for the long run and love you being here!!!

[Daniel]

Choko wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Well this was my first buddy read so it was my favorite as well :) Thanks to everyone for putting up with the newbie!"

You had better join us for the rest of the books!!! We are in ..."

I will be here for the rest of this series and hopefully many more. I really did enjoy this interactive experience!

[Choko]

Daniel wrote: "Choko wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Well this was my first buddy read so it was my favorite as well :) Thanks to everyone for putting up with the newbie!"

You had better join us for the rest of the books..."

GR has been a revelation to me as well. i love the BR's and honestly, I very rarely choose to read by myself lately - there is something contagious about sharing the experience with other souls who go through it too. Despite often having different opinions, just the alternate view of a reader gives more debt to the whole thing. I love it:):):)

[Daniel]

I can see how this would change the whole reading experience from a solitary pursuit to a group endeavor. Finishing the Hundredth queen at the moment, alas not a buddy read lol

[Laura]

From Janny:
Side comment, here is some fun for your discussion that you haven't yet broached: cover art.

There is symbolism behind every single element in every single cover art, chapter head, end piece - even in the USA covers that were portrait style and the older style 'landscape' covers done in the UK - every element has a hidden or NOT so hidden meaning.

And the icon artwork too.

All of the details matter not just those set into the words; there is a lot in the images, too.

Now Daniel and I would like to suggest a GAME TIME! - to see if we can identify those symbols and images

Here's what I found on Paravia under cover art:

Curse of the Mistwraith






Ships of Merior




Warhost of Vastmark







I for one hadn't paid real attention to the covers till now, especially the background.

[Olivia]

Hmmm so the sword changes direction and now there’s a raven on it. Is it symbolising the interference of the Koriani or the support of the fellowship?
Also the instrument for book two when he was an apprentice. The sword also now has the red bands that were around the instrument in the second book.

[Daniel]

Zero answers but a couple of observations: First cover has a sword with a rose but no blood red ribbon, next two have the ribbon. Are the two gargoyles facing each other significant? Does the gilded circle perhaps represent a gate? The switching between the lyranthe and the sword? But those two books were originally one novel? The background behind two of the “gates” appears desolate-is that representative of two of the dead worlds? Is that tied into the precepts of no weapons of mass destruction?
Sorry lots of questions no answers!

[Sandra]

It was when Dakar (view spoiler)[threw himself in front of that arrow that I began sobbing. (view spoiler)[

As for Lysaer vs Arithon I think they both have serious problems. I hated how nasty Arithon was to people to keep them away in the beginning. I keep remembering when the Curse took hold it emphasized that it couldn’t do anything beyond what was already there! Lysaer has a problem with women brought on by hismother’s abandonment when he was small. I remember when Talith went to Avenor to meet him how he just bull dozed over her feelings of resentment and her desire to call the whole thing off! Lysaer seduces ppl and then throws them away when he has no more use for them. Dakar finally realized this when he went to the ransom payoff. (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Sandra]

Daniel wrote: "Zero answers but a couple of observations: First cover has a sword with a rose but no blood red ribbon, next two have the ribbon. Are the two gargoyles facing each other significant? Does the gilde..."

All good questions tho!

[Daniel]

Except I killed the thread. Oh well lol

[Laura]

You didn't kill the thread Daniel. I think people were just busy. And sorry for my being MIA too. I didn't get the chance to come online much these days. Will try to make it up. :)

[Laura]

Sandra wrote: "It was when Dakar .."

Also my thoughts exactly on both counts.

[Choko]

Guys, I am soooo sorry for not being around, but I am on the road with an invalid old person and this is more than I can handle at times... I love him with all my heart, but I think this is our last go to the ocean... He is 86 and I have to do everything ... I am exhausted...
I am reading, just my ability to be on anything but the app is very limited, so I can't open any of the spoilers...

I loved this book, I love this croup fo BR readers and I hope we keep on going this way until the end - I will be home after the end of May:):):)

[Olivia]

I hope you're doing well, Choko. And that you get some rest as well! Can't wait for your thoughts :)

[Laura]

We missed you here Choko. But there's always the next BR. :)
Hope everything will go well for you lovely. 😘

[Daniel]

Sorry to hear that Choko, hope all goes as smoothly as possible. Yes real life gets in the way of goodreads. I was just kidding with the thread killer comment!

[Laura]

I'm thinking to add the US covers to my comment and copy it to the thread for the next book. As well as Olivia's and Daniel's comments. We can talk about the covers over there when/before/after reading. Would that be ok?

[Daniel]

I think that is a superb idea.

[Olivia]

Sounds great :) I went to amazon and looked at the next few covers, I see interesting progress based on them!

[Daniel]

I need to buy one of the hardcover books to get the chapter header and footer symbols. Using those the rest should be much easier to decipher...

[Choko]

Laura wrote: "I'm thinking to add the US covers to my comment and copy it to the thread for the next book. As well as Olivia's and Daniel's comments. We can talk about the covers over there when/before/after rea..."

That would be awesome, particularly since I kind of missed all that this time around...

[Choko]

Thank you so much guys!!! I just overestimated myself and Jack's health and abilities... I have to live with that decision for a month, but we will be fine, I am sure! Thank you once again to all of you for the understanding!!!

[Daniel]

@Choko we barely scratched the surface, didn’t come close to figuring anything out, so will be plenty to discuss.

[Sumant]

Hey guys although I am late to party few of my thoughts

I currently on Chapter 4

(view spoiler)[

1. The first chapter was fantastic where we have the the wraiths chasing Kaharadmon through space, also we come to know that the mists are man made, and they were created on Makar by exiles, who are basically scientists, and who have basically broken some kind of natural law in Athera.

2. I actually don't like the kind of power which the fellowship basically posses, although it is for the good of the people, where is free will in Athera ? Because if someone invents something dangerous like the Alestron brothers got hold of gun powder formula, you have a fellowship sorcerer showing up on your door step, and giving you an option of erasing your memory or getting exiled.

3. Also the blood oath which Arithron gave has shifted his personality completely, where he has started taking on people, and directly using them.

4. Dakar is absolutely right in his judgement when Arithron says he's going to use the wood in his ship's hold to get the nomads of Vastmark to be his archers, I think Dakar judges him correctly, as to who is going to pay for the death of their sons.

5. The scene where the Lysaer enters the adept's hologram was awesome, the geas has the power even to shatter the hologram, no wonder they have decided to enter in this war.
(hide spoiler)]