Poldark Saga - Winston Graham discussion
As a husband, who would you be happer being married to?
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Ken, she is doing it for herself because that is how she is to all. Yes she was polite to Monk but got him out just as Ross wanted. But she knew that she did not know how the social games were played in London and felt partly responsible for the dual and Monk’s death. She says so in her letter to Ross as she is off to Cornwall —— just as I am off to Cornwall.
Bernie wrote: "She says so in her letter to Ross as she is off to Cornwall —— just as I am off to Cornwall. ."Bernie, have a safe and fabulous trip.... You know we expect feedback, just like Stella. I'll keep my fingers crossed on the weather, enjoy!
Bernie wrote: "Ken, she really is a country girl in more than one way. This is the first time she is out of Cornwall She is interaction with people who are way out of her class. Her husband is a member of Parliam..."Bernie,
Think to much is made of the difference in class and etiquette. High class or low class they both are familiar with interaction between sexes.
Tell us how should Ross have reacted to Monk pressing his flesh on Demelza in such a vulgar manner?
A) Pretend he doesn't notice?
B) Cause a confrontation on the spot with Monk?
C) Wait and issue a request for a duel afterwards?
D) Ask the wife, what the hell? Why didn't you protest?
E) Something else?
You know flirting can lead to a very combustible situation. Not just between the men.
Reading about Monk waiting in her room, had me wondering if rape was about to happen. Monk wasn't the type to accept no for a answer.
Harold wrote: "Tell us how should Ross have reacted to Monk pressing his flesh on Demelza in such a vulgar manner?"If as Ross describes it latter, that Monk "paw you.(her) He must know every bone in your left arm from wrist to shoulder." Ross should have stepped in and taken Demelza by the hand and left. However, I am not sure that Ross is not exaggerating. The original description of the scene does not mention this, and Caroline, who was in the next box did not find her behavior inappropriate or she would have said something to Ross when they discussed her behavior on their return to Cornwall. Given Ross's jealousy, what ever did happened might have grown in his mind the more he thought about it.
Also it is totally in Ross's nature to confront Monk on the spot, which is exactly what he does with possible less provacation a week or so later in Parliament. And what he had previously done with George, and latter would do in Paris.
You and Ken have made much of Demelza's desire to be polite, deriding it and taking her to task for not being more sensitive to her husband's jealousy. In the same vain, why did Ross not confront Monk right there, was he trying to be polite because one just didn't do such a thing is "polite society?"
Bernie wrote: "You and Ken have made much of Demelza's desire to be polite, deriding it and taking her to task for not being more sensitive to her husband's jealousy.."That's exactly what I'm railing on. haha...... and yes, Ross should have done something at the play if it was bothering him. I would have told Demelza to switch seats with me in the box. F him if Monk didn't like it. :))
We don't know the extent of the pawing, but it obviously bother Ross. I think Demelza is living the dream that everything is repaired in their marriage and she has 100% of Ross' trust back. Because she knows she has no attraction to Monk, she thinks Ross should know that too.
She's not even concerned with what Monk is doing, in fact she's more worried about the noise. That to me is insensitive to Ross's feeling. I do think the play was one more brick in the wall. that caused Ross to accept the challenge.
Ken wrote: "I do think the play was one more brick in the wall. that caused Ross to accept the challenge. "Of course it was.
Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "I do think the play was one more brick in the wall. that caused Ross to accept the challenge. "Of course it was."
Bernie, you seem awfully resistant to admitting Demelza had a part in the duel. You honestly don't think she was caviler with Ross' feelings? Is she that out of touch with her husband?
I think not telling Ross the details of what happened in the room, suggests she knew she didn't handle Monk's advances well.
Ross under reacted to Hugh and over reacted to Monk, but that's in keeping with propensity for extremes. If Monk had come first, Demelza would have never cheated. haha
Of cause she was the cause of the duel and she knew it. Just read her letter to Ross she says so. And she says she doesn’t know who to things go in London and is going home to make sure nothing more goes wrong and will see how things are between them when he returns.
Bernie wrote: "Of cause she was the cause of the duel and she knew it. Just read her letter to Ross she says so. And she says she doesn’t know who to things go in London and is going home to make sure nothing mor..."Bernie, I probably worded that wrong...... Here's what I see happening.After Hugh, Demelza longed to regain that deep immersion that she once shared with Ross. She put away thoughts of Hugh when he died, other than occasionally reading a poem. Ross on the other hand continued to obsess on her betrayal, and it took him to a dark place.
Demelza (thinking time heals all wounds) was overjoyed at being ask to accompany Ross to London. She thought everything was healed and they were once again the couple she longed for.
I don't think she had a clue Ross still didn't trust her, until after Hugh was shot.
Yes, it's Demelza's way to flirt and sparkle and it always has been. And yes, that's what attracted Ross to her. Hugh shattered that trust. Ross no longer trusted Demelza to innocently flirt with men giving her attention, knowing in his heart she would never act on her flirtation...... She had proved to him she was capable of going all the way with another man. Even Monk, the last person on earth she would betray him with was considered a possibility by Ross.
When Demelza goes to London, she joyously goes back to being the person she is around everyone, not giving a second thought to Monk the fop, because she knows there could never be anything between them. She can't conceive Ross doesn't trust her to do the right thing. The reality of just how little her husband trusts her she finally understands after the duel. Now her core flirting characteristic puts all men at risk if she shows them attention.
Demelza made this clear after Monk's death......"In the middle of the soirie a good-looking man of about forty called Harry Winthrop, who was a relative of the Marquis of Bute, came across and was attentive to Demelza... She was almost rude to him. That evening she came to a decision..... Yes, to leave London.
Demelza finally gets that she married to a "jealous monster" that SHE built. This was the repercussion of her Tuesday with Hugh... Had they had not been apart most of the time in those 2 years, she might have seen it sooner. Ross gave her plenty of hints when he came home.... are you fretting for Hugh?.... have you been chasing Bedrugan from your bed? These were always among the first of the questions Ross would ask, I can't believe Demelza didn't pickup on what was occupying Ross's thoughts while he was away.
In her going away letter...."I was the cause of the Duel between you and Monk Adderley. For aught I know it might happen again. and again............................She finally gets it, Ross doesn't trust her anymore. ...... Not only do men she's polite and friendly to take it to mean something more. But now Ross does too. This is the cost of giving her body to another.
Ken wrote: Ross under reacted to Hugh and over reacted to Monk,Ross under reacted because he felt kindness toward Hugh in the beginning. Additionally, Ross trusted Demelza’s “good sense.”
Plus, there is a brotherhood established amongst military comrades that places a tacit restriction against betrayal of any kind between brothers. As for Monk, Ross had a dislike, and sleazy feeling about him from the beginning. Which as we know turned into hate as he attempted to ‘cuckhold’ Ross.
It was not Armitage that shattered Ross’s trust, it was Demelza. She allowed another man to come into her heart, where before there been only Ross. “No man wants his wife to be a woman that other men don’t desire...But every man wants his wife to be a woman that other men don’t get.” Demelza was solely responsible for the rift, no one else.
I'd like to change horses in mid-stream, if you’ll grant me a dispensation. It’s likely that protocol for changing the gist of this thread is a no-no, but I’d like to broach the subject of Hugh’s disregard of Demelza’s need for discretion and dignity following their dalliance.
I’m troubled by Hugh’s needling of the Demelza after their interlude at the Great Seal Hole, on their way back to Nampara Cove. Hugh makes various suggestive comments that cheapens what had just occurred. ‘I’ll not stay for dinner, least Ross should appear: ‘I’d’ be embarrassed.’ (true love makes no excuses and is never embarrassed) “I have been tired of waiting...When can I see you again?” (I can hardly wait ‘til our next repose together. So I can take you again) “Today I have seen enough.” (at least for now)
Demelza requests that Hugh stop with the entendres. He agrees and says, that nothing he will say in the future will cause hurt/harm. But he goes right back at it with the poetry. It was the harm caused by the poetry that launches Ross into anger, insecurity, and jealousy which lasts for years.
Then the lengthy hand holding and peering ‘searchingly and lovingly (wantonly) into her face’ upon arriving at Tregothnan with Dwight and Caroline present. As if no one would or could notice.
Next, when his Aunt suggests (regarding Hugh’s quest for the Parliamentary seat in Truro) “even if he’s lucky enough to attain it.” To which he responds again with a personal needling: (for Demelza’s edification) ‘that he’s already attained a lot.’ Which Demelza quickly diverts by suggesting that a compromise should be undertaken to improve the political environment surrounding the upcoming Truro election.
I feel that Hugh’s remarks are suggestive of a person who is inelegant and unseemly. That he not only brought Demelza near to losing her marriage, but also was an affront to the man who befriended him and retrieved him from sure death.
Val wrote: "Plus, there is a brotherhood established amongst military comrades that places a tacit restriction against betrayal of any kind between brothers..."I guess Hugh didn't get that memo Val... :))
I do disagree that it's ALL Demelza, if book Hugh had not pursued his unrelenting obsession with Demelza, it wouldn't have happened.
Series Demelza, I'm not so sure. It appeared to me she turned into the aggressor after her talk with Prudy. She left her close to death brother to meet Hugh. She was the one that suggested the walk on dunes behind the house. She picked the spot to pull him down on her.... She kissed him first and put his hand up her dress. Series Demelza is a modern woman, who has no problem being slutty if it suites her.
Do you think she went back to check on Drake after she finished getting bred?
I agree with you about Hugh's behavior after the tryst in the book, very snake-ee. His admission that he would be embarrassed to see Ross, says it all.
I think the discussion about Demelza not being sensitive to Ross about Monk Adderly is interesting, because Ross does almost the exact same thing meeting with Elizabeth in the churchyard and covering her face with kisses, and in fact, it is almost worse because it is the same person who he committed adultery with. And that weakened her resolve to resist Hugh. It seems like we expect more from Demelza in this situation than Ross.
Grace wrote: "I think the discussion about Demelza not being sensitive to Ross about Monk Adderly is interesting, because Ross does almost the exact same thing meeting with Elizabeth in the churchyard and coveri..."Grace, your mixing series and book here..... First in the book there were no kisses in the church, it happened on the walk home and no one saw them. Demelza knew about Sawle church a full year before she surrendered to Hugh, so it had very little bearing on the tryst.
Frankly in the series I saw very little resistance from Demelza.... she left her beaten half to death brother Drake to meet Hugh.... She only stopped to pick a fight with Ross to make her feel less guilty for what she planned to do. Then she suggests the walk. Doesn't want to hold his hand, but has no trouble putting the same hand up her dress..... How does that work?
We have no idea how DH will represent Monk.... she may have Demelza sleep with him too, after all she is a modernization of the character in the book.
All of my discussion about Monk was his book character, and I do think Demelza was stupid in allowing his advances. I think she had an Epiphany after the duel, and finally realized the way she acts around men left them believing she wanted more, Ross lost all trust in her to do the right thing because of her betrayal with Hugh. Even Monk, who probably was the last person in London who had a chance to get in Demelza's pants, Ross considered a threat. Demelza's price for her infidelity was the total loss of trust, even 2 yrs later. Her behavior with Hugh destroyed her relationship with Ross...... I'm not saying that's right, just that it happened. Demelza was never honest with Ross about her feelings for him or Hugh, and she paid the price.
Ken wrote: "Grace wrote: "I think the discussion about Demelza not being sensitive to Ross about Monk Adderly is interesting, because Ross does almost the exact same thing meeting with Elizabeth in the churchy..."I haven't seen the third season so I am only talking about the books, and Jud does tell her he saw them together, and it ate away at her resolve, understandably, I think. Jud says he thought it was her at first with the way they were walking. I would be very upset if someone told me they saw my husband strolling together with my husband who at cheated on me with that person. I understand that he was not doing anything wrong--that his feelings remained true to Demelza, and that trying to help someone was part of who he was. I just think it is a pretty parallel situation to how Demelza acted toward Monk. She is sparkly and friendly by nature, and she is also very aware of herself as a miner's daughter who doesn't know how to behave, so she can't bring herself to act coldly toward him. I just think there is a bit of a double standard in this discussion--sure, I guess Demelza made a mistake, but Ross made almost the exact same one. I don't see him as the injured party, and I don't think Winston Graham intends for readers too. I think he has an innate sense of the unfair deal women had especially in those days, where men were expected to be unfaithful and women were not, and I
think the double standard exists today.
"Grace wrote: I haven't seen the third season so I am only talking about the books"Grace, I don’t disagree in total with your analysis. However, before the Monk incident, there was Hugh Armitage. He was the crux of Ross’s repulsion of Monk that lead to his duel, and Demelza’s retreat from London. Recall Ross’s conversation with Dwight, (In The Angry Tide) where he, (Dwight) inquires of Ross as to whether “all is well” between he and Demelza now? A year later. And Ross makes a point of telling Dwight that “a jealous man is a suspicious one.”
Val wrote: ""Grace wrote: I haven't seen the third season so I am only talking about the books"Grace, I don’t disagree in total with your analysis. However, before the Monk incident, there was Hugh Armitage...."
Right, but before the Elizabeth incident there was the Elizabeth incident if you know what I mean....
Grace wrote: "Val wrote: ""Grace wrote: I haven't seen the third season so I am only talking about the books"Grace, I don’t disagree in total with your analysis. However, before the Monk incident, there was Hu..."
I get what your saying Grace, but the unplanned chanced meeting at the church was not sexual in any way, it was good-bye.
I would never justify Ross for forcing himself on Liz, it was wrong, it also happened in 93'. So for 3 years Ross had no contact with Elizabeth other than saving her horse....After Jud tells D, a year goes by without Demelza asking Ross anything about Sawle church and she gives herself to Hugh..... then it's 2 more years of estrangement until the Monk incident. (6 yrs after Ross's night he regrets)
Demelza is setting between Monk and Ross, letting Monk paw her (as Ross describes it) and doesn't seem to mind a bit, in fact she was more annoyed at the stage hands making noise. I agree with Bernie, Ross should have done something right then. He did tell Demelza it was bring up old feelings of jealously.
I think any wife that was trying to regain her husband's trust would tone down the "sparkle" a bit. Demelza seems to think because SHE knew Monk could never succeed, Ross should just trust her..... She still doesn't realize the "trust" boat sailed 2 yrs ago and hasn't returned to dock. :))
Do you still think that Ross would be better off without her? Well Ross certainly doesn’t think so...."
Nah... just blowing smoke. They were made for each other. I see their underlying love throughout the books..... Not so much Debbie's S3. lol
True she is a country girl and out of her depth, but even a country girl knows you get labeled by who you hang out with. There's no doubt Demelza knows Monk has a bad reputation, everyone close to her has warned her.......
Which bring me back to why did she think politeness at the expense of Ross' feelings was the way to go. Especially sense their relationship was still fragile at this point. Demelza should be working to regain the trust she damaged not cause more damage...... She can't claim she's doing it for her husband, because he doesn't want it.... So who's she doing it for?