Poldark Saga - Winston Graham discussion
As a husband, who would you be happer being married to?
Val wrote: "Bernie wrote: That's not the way a woman "In love" would act. Harold wrote: Don't know why your so hung up on Demelza not actually using the word loveBernie I enjoyed your treatise and concur. I ..."
We are really just talking about shades of love here. Ross discusses loving Elizabeth with Demelza. Here's the quote:
I loved her once – as you know too well – and idealized her. I shall always think of her with admiration and affection. But … she won’t ever be central to me as you are – preoccupying, all-important, indispensable, both as a person and a woman …’
The part about being Demelza being central to him. Think one could say Ross is central to Demelza heart, but yes there are feelings for another, much like Rosses feelings for Elizabeth
You know if circumstances were different I could see both Ross and Demelza marrying the "other person" because there were real feeling there for that other person. However Ross and Demelza are very much the most important person in each other life.
Bernie wrote: "Val wrote: "She knew that Ross already struggled with the emotional betrayal, she could not harm him any more by admitting a sexual betrayal. ."I think you are correct. A great many have comment..."
I'm not sure I totally agree, Bernie. I think Demelza could have shortened the estrangement or stopped it all together if she had done more than just say "It's over"
I do agree she was correct not to tell him she went all the way. There was no need to confirm that and inflect more pain.
Where I fault Demelza was it would cost her nothing to tell Ross he was always first in her heart. What bothered Ross most was not the possible sex, but not knowing if he'd been replaced in her heart. It was her emotional infidelity not physical that brought on the "angry tide" Demelza could have done a lot to ease his pain without admitting physical consummation of her tryst. I thought she kinda like him writhing in doubt and purposely kept her true feeling hidden.
Harold wrote: "We are quibbling over semantics"Yes, but sometime semantics can be important. There is no question that Demelza was deeply taken with Hugh. I think the best description of her feeling for him as compared to her love for Ross comes from TFS: "She felt no less in love with Ross than before – perhaps, perversely, a little more so. She felt no different – or very little different – towards Hugh Armitage. She was taken with him, warmed by his love and returning some of it."
As for her behavior at the end of Hugh's life. I said at the end of his life because it is not Demelza's reaction to his death that sets Ross off, but her reaction seeing Hugh sick. Apparently it was a reaction that showed that she cared for Hugh. That should not have been a surprise to Ross because he knew that Hugh loved her, and she had said to him that Hugh's love for her mattered to her. In fact, her reaction to Hugh's death--going to talk with Caroline--is comforting to Ross, as we are told, "And now Hugh was dead and now she was gone. Where the hell could she have gone? Perhaps she would not come back. Perhaps it was better that she should not. ... ‘Demelza, where have you been?’ ‘What? Now? To – to see Caroline.’ ‘Oh …’ That somehow did not seem so bad."
The totality of her reactions to Hugh's death and his reaction to it was their decision to stay together. Of course, Demelza felt deeply about Hugh, but that was something that Ross knew for months and he did nothing to put a stop to it, even encouraged it, i.e., "I think well of Hugh, and can hardly dislike him for admiring you – as long as that is all. No man wants his wife to be a woman that other men don’t desire.’ ‘No, Ross.’ ‘But every man wants his wife to be a woman that other men don’t get. Remember that, will you?’ ‘Yes, Ross.’"
Harold, I agree with you that Hugh was special to Demelza in that she had allowed him into her heart, just as Ross still had Elizabeth and Demelza in his heart. (When he hears that she is having a bad time of child birth, he runs to her.) Ross should have understood this, but clearly felt that while this could be true of a man, it could not be true of a women. He says, "There’s not really room for two men in a woman’s heart, is there? Not in the way that counts.’ Demelza said: ‘Or room for two women in a man’s?’ ‘What makes you say that?’ ‘Isn’t it reasonable to ask?’ They were on the brink then of much more; but Jeremy’s arrival."
I think Val has it just right: Demelza "loved" Hugh, but was not "in love" with Hugh. It was a caring love, not the all consuming and enduring love she felt for Ross.
Ken wrote: " Demelza could have done a lot to ease his pain without admitting physical consummation of her tryst. I thought she kinda like him writhing in doubt and purposely kept her true feeling hidden. "Ken, Demelza very much wanted to end the estrangement. Consider this:
"Never since Hugh Armitage’s death had there been total ease between them. Love and laughter, she had discovered before this, could exist on a plane which was not at all superficial but which did not penetrate to the depths of one’s being. It had been so five years ago; it was so again now. She longed more than anything for the total submersion in each other that had occurred at other times. Only when it was withdrawn did one observe the tremendous gap that existed between that and the next stage."
Do you really think that she held back the words that she knew would return their "total submersion in each other," because, as you wrote, "she kinda like him writhing in doubt and purposely kept her true feeling hidden?" I don't think so.
In London she is disturbed that now that she has finally again his "wife – truly, truly in more than name again, in more than mere act again, after so long. I am happy," and distraught that this may end because Ross "cannot always contain or order one’s feelings, and when I see you in the company of another man – being touched and pressed by him – my mind – or something in me – turns up old feelings, old thoughts, old resentments. Which aren’t so very old."
She would do anything to prevent this, including leaving London. Again, if there were words to comfort Ross she sure would have said them.
Ken and Bernie you two are correct that it was at the hospital that her reaction was when Ross realized that the relationship between Demelza and Hugh had progressed further then he thought. My memory isn't what it once was.
Bernie wrote: "She would do anything to prevent this, including leaving London. Again, if there were words to comfort Ross she sure would have said them. ."That's the problem Bernie...... Demelza says nothing to validate Ross's feelings and let him know he was always first in her heart. She had to know the pain and mistrust Ross was going through, because she experienced herself when he went to Liz.
She knew Ross needed more support for his ego, but didn't give it..... Just saying "it's over" is not enough. Ross even comes back with "because he's dead" and all Demelza would say is "it's over".... not WHAT"S over. Demelza continued to dodge the honesty questions Ross would bring up. Her attitude was it's over, deal with it. So NO, I don't think Demelza did or said anything to shorten the estrangement.
Bernie wrote: They both paid a terrible price for her affair with Hugh.You're so right. They paid a haunting price, that lasted a significant amount of time.
However, I don't believe it really evolved into an affair. Affairs imply a sequence of happenings. This was a one and done.
Demelza characterizes it as "gently slipping into infidelity." She views it in isolation. Not an event that would transpire over time. Plus, she was basically unaffected by the experience. Other than the anger with herself she didn't feel any difference toward Ross or Hugh.
Think that exchange is open to interpretation. You see it as Demelza twisting the knife. I see it as Demelza not being sure where the relationship with Hugh would of led. Already it had gone beyond what she thought was possible and it was evolving rapidly. She really wasn’t certain what the future would of held if Hugh had lived and she wasn’t one for outright lying.
Harold wrote: "Think that exchange is open to interpretation. You see it as Demelza twisting the knife. I see it as Demelza not being sure where the relationship with Hugh would of led. Already it had gone beyond..."Harold, I wasn't sure if this was for me. Use the reply button or throw a name in at the beginning...... "it had gone beyond what she thought was possible and it was evolving rapidly." How does a relationship with a dead guy evolve? The discussion I was referring to happened after Hugh was room temperature.
Wasn't it a form of outright lying to hide the poems? I don't see Demelza as honest as you do.
Ken wrote: "Harold wrote: "Think that exchange is open to interpretation. You see it as Demelza twisting the knife. I see it as Demelza not being sure where the relationship with Hugh would of led. Already it ..."It’s over because Hugh is dead, if it wasn’t she wasn’t sure where it would of led.
Harold wrote: "It’s over because Hugh is dead, if it wasn’t she wasn’t sure where it would of led."Harold, you may be right. If Hugh had lived and if he had pursued her I also am not sure where things might have ended up. While she knew where she wanted it to be, she had shown remarkable little will power to make sure things did not progress. Before he left for the Navy she made it clear that she did not give him permission to love her; she wanted only his friendship; that she was content with Ross and her family, and yet she had accepted his poems. She could not say no to going to see the seals. She said no when he asked if he could make love to her, but then gave in. She hoped that their tryst was a one off event, but knew it was clearly not for him, and I think was not really sure it was for her--she thought that "It was just a trifle disconcerting that she did not feel very much changed in any way as a result of it."
Given the "attraction, sheer physical attraction, which she had felt from the moment they had first met last year" if he pressed her as he had done on the beach, what was to say she might not again be unable to stop him, and again to allow herself "to slip gently into the infidelity she had thought impossible in herself."
What happened once and if he pressed, might happen again, had nothing to do with love, but everything to do with lust, the "sheer physical attraction," the "terrible attraction" she felt for Hugh.
The sad thing is that Ross had figured this all out and had done nothing to prevent it. He knew that, "From the moment Hugh Armitage set eyes on her she had been ready to melt into his arms. And had made no secret of the fact, even to Ross. ‘Ross,’ she had more or less said, ‘this beautiful young man is after me and I like it. I can’t help it. I’m going to give myself to him. A pity about our home, our children, our happiness, our love, our trust. Such a pity. A shame. Too bad. Goodbye.’"
Bernie wrote: "Harold wrote: "It’s over because Hugh is dead, if it wasn’t she wasn’t sure where it would of led."Harold, you may be right. If Hugh had lived and if he had pursued her I also am not sure where t..."
Think we agree for the most part. I would quibble that it was just a physical attraction. Seems clear to be she enjoys his conversations, his charm, his intelligence, his devotion, his very present, think it had gone beyond sheer physical attraction.
Also Bernie, think it boggled her mind that any man could insert himself into her life the way Hugh did. She was very very happy with her life as is. Hugh was a problem she couldn’t imagine happening. Think if Ross wasn’t a part of her life, she would of married Hugh in a heart beat. He just appealed to her that much.
Harold wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Harold wrote: "It’s over because Hugh is dead, if it wasn’t she wasn’t sure where it would of led."Harold, you may be right. If Hugh had lived and if he had pursued her I also am n..."
There's no doubt in my mind if Hugh's eyes had healed and the pursuit of his wife continued, Ross would have called for pistols.
He shot Monk because he regretted not shooting Hugh.
I disagree that Demelza would have allowed it to happen again, because she did not like herself much the first time. Demelza was too attached to what she had to risk it a second time. She also knew what Ross would do if Hugh could see and was healthy. I think Demelza knew exactly why Ross shot Monk, and part of her anger was realizing her surrender risk both Ross and Hugh's life if Hugh had healed.
Ken wrote: "Harold wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Harold wrote: "It’s over because Hugh is dead, if it wasn’t she wasn’t sure where it would of led."Harold, you may be right. If Hugh had lived and if he had pursued ..."
He shot Monk because he was a asshole who thought he could run over who ever, Ross was the wrong guy to try to run over. I seriously disagree with Carolyn theory that Ross was actually killing Monk because of some unresolved issue with Hugh, Monk was the one who asked for a duel and Ross wasn’t the kind of guy to dodge that challenge.
I will add this Ken, Ross resented Demelza passive response to Monks aggression, given the recent history that’s understandable, but that really wasn’t the reason for the duel IMO.
Harold wrote: "I would quibble that it was just a physical attraction. Seems clear to be she enjoys his conversations, his charm, his intelligence, his devotion, his very present, think it had gone beyond sheer physical attraction."Harold, I am sure that she enjoyed all these things, but I cannot find any indication that his attraction for her had , as you said, gone beyond the sheer physical attraction she felt for him as a result of them. I will seriously consider what you say if you can provide WG's words to back it up.
Ken wrote: "He shot Monk because he regretted not shooting Hugh."I agree that he shot Monk over Demelza, which is the way Demelza see it in her letter explaining why she is going back to Cornwall, and what he admits to when when he return.
You may be right that the first tryst taught her the lesson, and certainly if Hugh were not able to press things she was not running after him, but ... If Ross did not step in and if he pursued her it is an open question in my mind if she might not have slipped again. She certainly had the hots for him, the electric hots, and if there had been no repercussions from the first tryst, would she have the will power to step away?
Bernie wrote: "if there had been no repercussions from the first tryst, would she have the will power to step away? "Bernie, that's an interesting hypothetical question, but one Winston would have never allowed.
I've always thought what she did with McNeil was cheating. Making out at a party and allowing a guy in your room to feel you up is not the behavior of a faithful wife. For that matter she should have shut down Monk before he ended up in her room. Demelza has problems saying no to certain men that are giving her compliments. She wants everyone to like her because of her inferiority complex, that leaves the door open to sieges on her gates of paradise.
My question is would Ross have called for pistols if Hugh's eyes had healed and he continued his pursuit?
Ken wrote: "Stella wrote: "Ken wrote: "Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "I find this TV production so unsatisfying. and yet DH wins awards. I don't get it.."Forgive me if I've posted this before, but DH's awards ch..."
Ken - Aidan Turner, Debbie Horsfield and Karen Thrussell are down to go. Eleanor is not - I think she is busy with work or perhaps she fears people will hate her.
Ken wrote, "I've always thought that what she did with McNeil was cheating. Making out at a party and allowing a guy in your room to feel you up is not the behavior of a faithful wife." Remember, though, she couldn't go through with it. Yes, she'd planned "revenge sex" but in the end, her love for Ross was too great. Unlike Ross, who goes to Elizabeth to try and talk her out of marrying George and ends up in her bed.Monk, I think is a very different kettle of fish. She does everything she can to escape his clutches, and still be the polite MP's wife (politics makes strange bedfellows, as they say. You never know who or what might help, and she wants Ross to be successful).
I think she is a faithful wife, except for the thing with Hugh. The thing is, some people are affectionate and flirtacious by nature, and I think Demelza is one of them.
Ken wrote: " Aidan Turner, Debbie Horsfield and Karen Thrussell are down to go. Eleanor is not - I think she is busy with work or perhaps she fears people will hate her."what a great even, Stella.... I'm jealous.....I'm sure Eleanore is busy on a project. She's in great demand because of her acting chops. I hope she's not scared of the crazy fans that can't separate the character/actress. I know she made some comments about expecting a backlash from the Hugh tryst.
We all expect a report on the event.... I hope you get at least one question in. haha
Parker wrote: "The thing is, some people are affectionate and flirtacious by nature, and I think Demelza is one of them."I completely agree, Parker..... my problem is Demelza doesn't know where to draw the line. I also don't think a partner has to have sex to cheat. What she did with McNeil was over that line, even though she stopped. With Monk it was more than polite to let him fondle her at the play and touch her breast in the room. Demelza is always insecure around men giving her compliments. Why didn't she slap the hand of the guy fondling her thigh under the dinner table??? Instead she allows it to continue....... Hello, door open.
Parker wrote: I think she is a faithful wife, except for the thing with Hugh. Ken wrote: my problem is Demelza doesn't know where to draw the line."I am in accord with you and Ken.
I do not believe that Graham intended to paint Demelza with an adulteress’s brush. I think he wanted to place her historically in an eighteenth century context. Thereby, acknowledging the pithy control exercised by the dominate upper classes and the effect it could have on any attractive woman from the less than genteel persuasion. The fact that he choose Mistress Poldark for this challenge requires the reader to empathize and define what a virtuous woman such as she had to do, based on the complex personal profile he created for Demelza.
Ken wrote: "Harold wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Harold wrote: "It’s over because Hugh is dead, if it wasn’t she wasn’t sure where it would of led."Harold, you may be right. If Hugh had lived and if he had pursued ..."
Maybe it’s just me, but think Monk and Ross were bound to have a show down if they interacted much. I believed he told Demelza after meeting him that Monk raised the hair on neck. Immediate dislike. Think it could of happened even if Hugh wasn’t part of the story, but it’s a book and I speculate rather much.
Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "She would do anything to prevent this, including leaving London. Again, if there were words to comfort Ross she sure would have said them. ."That's the problem Bernie...... Demelza..."
Ken that line by Demelza bothers me also. Another line that Demelza says that catches me off guard is her response to Ross saying you should of thought of that before. She comes right back with “If you want be to leave, I will” talk about going from zero to hundred in a second. IDK but seems to me like she laying it down to like or lump it let me know which. The younger wife taking the dominant position in the relationship, over the older husband. Not really sure if that’s the case. What are everyone else’s take on that.
There’s no denial ( which she could of done ) no excuses, no pleading, just a so what attitude, I will leave if you want.....is that what you want?
I offen read that Demelza is the hero in this sage, but I always considered Ross the hero myself. I really wish he had said yes I think perhaps that would be best. Not that I wanted them to part, but feel at the least Demelza needed to make more of a effort to be contrite. Ross let me down here.
Val wrote: "Bernie wrote: They both paid a terrible price for her affair with Hugh.You're so right. They paid a haunting price, that lasted a significant amount of time.
However, I don't believe it really ..."
Val,
There was a courtship involved. A somewhat short one and in part by post ( Hughes poems), but think that qualifies as a series of events.
Harold wrote: "Another line that Demelza says that catches me off guard is her response to Ross saying you should of thought of that before. She comes right back with “If you want be to leave, I will. seems to me like she laying it down to like or lump it ."Harold, if you are going to make a point PLEASE quote the whole exchange. Here is the exchange.
Ross says, "tell me what you want, no more, no less.’ ‘Want?’ she said. ‘I want nothing.’ ‘Nothing?’ ‘Nothing more than I have.’ ‘Had.’ ‘As you please, Ross. It’s just as you say.’ ‘No, my dear, it’s just as you say.’ ‘Please, Ross, don’t …’ ‘Stop crying, you fool,’ he said roughly. ‘It solves nothing.’ She wiped her sleeve across her eyes, sniffled and looked at him through a mixture of hair and wet lashes. He could have killed her because he loved her. She said: ‘What do you want me to do?’ ‘Leave or stay, just as you wish.’ ‘Leave?’ she said. ‘I don’t want to leave. How could I possibly go away from here – from all, all that we have together?’ ‘Perhaps you should have thought of it before.’ ‘Yes,’ she said, standing up. ‘Perhaps I should.’ He bent again to stab at the fire. ‘Well,’ she said, ‘if you want me to go I will.’
At this point Clowance comes in. After she leaves the exchange continues.
‘Tell me how you feel,’ he said. ‘You mean you don’t want me to leave?’ ‘Tell me how you feel.’ ‘
.... this ends with her saying, "All I know is that I love you. I suppose that’s all that really matters.’ and Ross saying ‘It’s what matters to me.’"
The whole exchange is hardly the like it to lump it that you suggest. It is Ross that is confrontational , not Demelza. It is Ross that is suggesting that what she has, which all belongs to him, is of the past--"had". She ask if he wants her to leave, but she says that is not what she wants. His response is that she should have thought about that before and now she is somewhat defensive but saying, yes, she should have. In the same defensive tone, now I think mixed with contrite guilt, she says if that is what he wants she will leave. Of course, this is not what he wants, —"The words rose to his lips to agree that she should leave but they would not come out—and he walks this back by asking her to tell him how she feels.
Harold wrote: "Monk and Ross were bound to have a show down if they interacted much. I believed he told Demelza after meeting him that Monk raised the hair on neck. Immediate dislike. e ..."Harold, you could be right. From the first time Ross met Monk at George's party he disliked the guy..... and yes, he did tell Demelza how bad he was.... So why the hell did Demelza feel the need to be polite to Monk in London??? This was no man Ross wanted to aline himself with. Ross told her Monk was trouble, but Demelza kept leaving the door open to his advances. How could she possible be surprised how events progressed and ended?
Ken wrote: "Parker wrote: "The thing is, some people are affectionate and flirtacious by nature, and I think Demelza is one of them."I completely agree, Parker..... my problem is Demelza doesn't know where t..."
Demelza would have had no problems dealing with the same advances by a member of the lower classes but she had no experience whatsoever or guide on how to behave in dealing with members of the Ton and aristocracy whose strict rules of proper etiquette were matched with an illicit lifestyle of sexual encounters. Demelza was out of her depth. Lower classes were prey and easy pickings for some members of the upper classes. They had no rights.
Still, when it came to Monk, he was renown for his volatile nature and his frequent illegal duelling. Caroline warned Demelza about Monk and to treat him carefully. So I don't see Demelza as leading Monk on but trying not to exacerbate the situation. Demelza was trying not to be rude!
George set Monk on Demelza so he was interested in her as a challenge which put the unwitting Demelza in a position of constantly trying to walk the line of resisting his unwanted attention without causing offense. He tried to get her to go out alone with him so she invited him with her and AND Ross and their friends instead. Demelza tries to get Monk out of her and Ross' rooms after Monk got the landlady to let him in. She was consistent in saying no and trying to show her lack of interest - again without causing offense until Monk finally decided she was too afraid of Ross and finally left!
Demelza isn't perfect but she was out of her depth with someone like Monk. Ross didn't understand because as a member of the gentry he wasn't intimidated as Demelza was and rejected their pretensions out of hand.
Myrt wrote: "Ken wrote: "Parker wrote: "Demelza isn't perfect but she was out of her depth with someone like Monk. ..."She was out of her depth with Hugh too, and look where that ended. She was also warned off by Ross not to let things go too far. After being warned by both Ross and Caroline that Monk was dangerous, she was a fool to not shut him down. She could have done it with out being offensive. Caroline could have shown her how if she didn't want to involve Ross...... Just how did she think Ross would respond to Monk fondling her in public at the play? Why didn't she make sure she sat on the other side of her husband?
I just don't accept "out of her depth" as an excuse to let Monk continue to pursue her.
In the end Demelza was right, Monk was dead because of her. She should have been more mad at herself than she was at Ross.
Of course Monk was a fop and the last person in London she would be attracted to, but after Hugh she lost her innocence to flirt with another man... before you say she didn't flirt, just leaving to door open was enough Monk..... R&D had just put their marriage back on track after a year of estrangement, how on earth did Demelza think any attention from another man would be received well by Ross, whether it was solicited or not? Especially a man she had been warned was dangerous.
Ken wrote: "Myrt wrote: "Ken wrote: "Parker wrote: "Demelza isn't perfect but she was out of her depth with someone like Monk. ..."She was out of her depth with Hugh too, and look where that ended. She was a..."
Loved your description of Monk as a fop.
Harold wrote: "Ken wrote: "Myrt wrote: "Ken wrote: "Parker wrote: "Demelza isn't perfect but she was out of her depth with someone like Monk. ..."She was out of her depth with Hugh too, and look where that ende..."
Harold, do you have a feel for the time frame between Hugh and Monk? Ross was elected the day after he died in Sept 97'....He went to London and spent about 9 mos before he came home for the summer.... Then he went back again without Demelza (unknown time) home for several months and then he took Demelza the third trip. The Monk thing must have happened about 2 yrs later in 99'
Do you think I'm being too hard on Demelza for not shutting Monk down sooner? I think she was very indifferent to Ross's feelings. She did plan the outing to the play. She had to know Ross was not happy with her spending time with Monk, he told her so.
Ken wrote: "R&D had just put their marriage back on track after a year of estrangement, how on earth did Demelza think any attention from another man would be received well by Ross, whether it was solicited or not? "Myrt wrote: "Demelza isn't perfect but she was out of her depth with someone like Monk. ...""Ken wrote:Do you think I'm being too hard on Demelza for not shutting Monk down sooner?"Ken, I think you are. This is how Demelza is to her ever loving core that Ross fell in love with. What you want is that she should not be herself, not be the woman that Ross loves. This is the Demelza that he fell in love with and he is dame lucky that he is the man that she fell in love with. Men are attracted to her because of more than her beauty. Her quick wit, sharp mind and spirt attract men like honey, including him. She can't turn that off, as she can't turn off breathing. It who she is, and so fundamental to herself that she does not recognize it until it is too late. Caroline knows it, and after her visit to London she came to know it. Ross knew it from the early years of his marriage and relished it, but it got him into trouble. Trouble when he let it go to far with Hugh, and trouble when his jealiousy got out of control in London with Monk and in Paris. Their mutual attractiveness and light hearted flirting is at the heart of their personalities, which WG plays out from the first books to the last. Years later this is how she sums it all up:
"‘Clowance, I do not greatly enjoy seeing your father flirting with some handsome woman, any more than he would take too kindly if I flirted outrageously with some handsome man, as has happened now and then in the past. But we have been together for a very long time, him and me, and except for one dire event on his side, and one dire event on mine ... we still feel as much for each other, your father and me, as we have always felt. In our lives, and I’m serious now, we have had so much loving, so very much loving. It has not staled. It varies from year to year, but it keeps always to a constant pitch of – of being deeply and truly involved. And desirous. Against this – if you put this against your father having a frolic on the dance floor with the beautiful second wife of his oldest enemy – this frolic is as important as a ball of fluff.’" Bella Poldark: (pp. 249-250).
So Ken are you being to hard on Demelza, let Ross answer your question: "‘What was done in London was not well done. ... In our lives before this we’ve each given the other cause for deep offence. .... ‘This time,’ Ross said, ‘I’m the chief offender – maybe the only one. At least I plead no excuse.’
Harold wrote: "Ken and Bernie you two are correct that it was at the hospital that her reaction was when Ross realized that the relationship between Demelza and Hugh had progressed further then he thought. My mem..."A little addition to why I felt Hughes death was when Ross knew Demelza was unfaithful.
He did not know the meaning of the poem he had read; it might mean that Demelza had been unfaithful to him, it might all be poetic licence. He had not asked her and would not ask her. What was plain during this week was that she was being unfaithful in spirit, her thoughts, her emotions, her heart, deeply engaged with another man.
This was the what I read that led me to believe Hughes death was when Ross excepted that Demelza was unfaithful, although he still skirts the issue.
Harold one thing I never understood was why he never asked her about the poem. He wanted to know how she felt after he died and if she fretted for Hugh but not about the poem? I guess in his mind it was better to think the worst than to know for sure what really happened. If there was something that was always unresolved in their relationship it was the poem.
Bernie wrote: "This is how Demelza is to her ever loving core that Ross fell in love with. What you want is that she should not be herself, not be the woman that Ross loves...."I get what your saying Bernie, but I feel Demelza should have been more guarded of her natural exuberance for attention. They literally had just got their marriage back on track and put away the anger and resentment spawned 2 yrs ago.
Demelza had no doubt Ross was bothered by Monks attention....
After the dinner dance.... "Monk Adderley is a freakish fellow" 'Freakish .... yes..I am a little scared at him'
'It did not seem so. You asked him to join us at supper and have invited him to the theater on Thursday.
Demelza struggled with the difficulty of explaining....
Ross pursed his lips 'Adderley, Yes, He is a joke. But I think we must watch him lest the joke turn sour'
Demelza can have no doubt Ross is bothered by Monk's attention.
Then comes the play and Monk is pressing his face to Demelza and fondling her arm. Demelza was far more annoyed by the noise from the pit..... Shouldn't she be annoyed at Monk's advances in front of her husband????
Ross even tells her that night Adderley is wrong, especially if he supposes I shall stand by and watch him attempting to cuckold me......
Red flag Demelza, it doesn't matter if you know Monk doesn't stand a chance, your husband is worried he does. Even after her "because it once happened" speech, Ross is still convinced she is encouraging him. So Demelza gets mad, rather than trying to understand what's bothering Ross so much. Demelza gives her excuses of being polite.
She doesn't see the problem of letting Monk paw her. (R)'Better that you should never have come than that he should contrive to paw you. He must know every bone in your left arm from wrist to shoulder.
When the flowers come 2 days in a row, Demelza can't understand why Ross wants to throw them out. I seriously think she's slow sometimes.
Ross even tells her this is bring up old feelings, old thoughts, old resentments. Which aren't so very old.
Demelza had no illusions about what Monk wanted from her, and she had no illusions it was pissing Ross off and bothering him. I think a wife that had been estranged for almost 2 years would be a bit more sensitive about how she conducted herself. Instead, she expected Ross to just trust her.... sry, Demelza, the trust boat sailed 2 yrs ago.
Bernie wrote: "Harold one thing I never understood was why he never asked her about the poem. He wanted to know how she felt after he died and if she fretted for Hugh but not about the poem? I guess in his mind i..."Bernie, in the 75' adaptation they did let Demelza know Ross had found the poem..... but that was all. It was in his fighting a shade speech when he returned from London.
One thing I am sure of..... if Monk had happened first there would have been no sex with Hugh. haha
Ken wrote: "I feel Demelza should have been more guarded of her natural exuberance for attention. They literally had just got their marriage back on track and put away the anger and resentment spawned 2 yrs ago."Of course you are right. It is only after the fact that she understands that she should have been more guided, which she admits in her letter to Ross: "I am out of my Depth in London society, and my wish to be friendly and polite to everyone was taken to mean something more. It was even taken by you to mean something more. Ross, I am going home."
And you are right that Ross was very upset, but so was Demelza. As far as she is concerned she is not misbehaving and is giving him no reason for his jealousy. Here is what she says: ‘Sometimes, Ross, you try me hard. You really do. I am – I am in London for the first time. It is a new society. I am your wife – truly, truly in more than name again, in more than mere act again, after so long. I am happy, excited, living in a new way. A man comes up to me and starts paying me compliments. He is a – he is educated, well bred, a member of Parliament. Do I turn my back on him to please you? Do I smack his face to satisfy you? Do I sit in a corner and refuse to answer him? Better that I should never have come!’"
The real problem is that they are not communicating with each other. They have never had a real conversation about what happened with Hugh, why it went further then each of the wanted, what each could have done to prevent it, and what each expected from the other in the future. They really needed a professional third party to facilitate this dialogue, but this was the 18th century, and such things did not exist.
Ken wrote: "Demelza should have been more guarded of her natural exuberance for attention. "To the point of Demelza's basic character and the fact that Ross relished the attention she go consider what happened in Paris:
We are told, " He enjoyed seeing her admired – especially for her liveliness and freshness and naturalness – by women as well as men. And the new gowns they had bought brought out her charm and good looks. It amused him when people thought her his second wife. ..... Ross looked not infrequently at his wife and wondered if the men who made such a great fuss of her knew how old she really was. ... [She found] herself the centre of so much male admiration as to take her breath away. ... She had no thought in her mind of being unfaithful to Ross; but one simply could not fail to be inspirited, laughingly diverted, occasionally thrilled and excited by it all.
With Ross’s tacit acceptance as to expense they bought two new gowns. ... And like many of the men, Ross approved of the result; and unlike the other men, he was able to prove his approval when he got her home at night or most often early in the morning. It was many years since he had been out of love with his wife, but now he fell in love with her over again.
Demelza was pursued by " Jean-Lambert Tallien, who absolutely refused to be put off by competition from younger and better-looking men. .... [Tallien was} certain that no wife long married to one man could continue to care for him and that this ingenuous Englishwoman with such a pretty face and engaging manners could not fail to fall for him who had had so many agreeable conquests in the past."
In this case Ross said and did what he should have done in London to Monk and before to Hugh, "I am not happy to see you here. ... Ross took him by the collar. ... ‘Get out,’ he said. Tallien struck at the hand as Ross thrust him towards the door. ‘You shall hear more of this!’ ‘Get out!’ said Ross. ‘Before I kill you now!’"
So maybe Ross had learned something after all, but his action came at a price.
Later Ross notes "‘When I was arrested Tallien accompanied the gendarmes. He may be the cause of my imprisonment. I shook him up on one occasion because he was paying unwelcome attentions to my wife.’"
Bernie wrote: "" He enjoyed seeing her admired – especially for her liveliness and freshness and naturalness – by women as well as men..."Your making a good point, that I totally agree with. This is an ongoing theme in all the books and a basic tenet of their relationship......
My point was Ross left no doubt in Demelza's mind that he didn't enjoy Monk admiring her.... It seems to me, considering they just came together again after 2 yrs of estrangement and she was again more than just a wife in name, she would put Ross's feelings above Monk's.
Demelza even left the door open to his advances when he broke in their room......"Next time we meet.'..... and after he touched her breast....'Not now. Another time, sir' And after his rude response to her request to withdraw, 'Only when the gentleman has already been in'. Monk says 'Perhaps I may wait upon you some other time'........... Demelza 'Please do".... WTF
Does Demelza really think being polite to Monk is more important than her husbands anger and angst? She doesn't even tell him all that happened in the room, because that's exactly why Ross told her to cool it with Monk.
Demelza needed to slap Monk and tell him to get out.... I think she has part of the responsibility for Monks death and Ross getting shot.
Bernie wrote: "Men are attracted to her because of more than her beauty. Her quick wit, sharp mind and spirt attract men like honey, including him. She can't turn that off, as she can't turn off breathing. It who she is, and so fundamental to herself that she does not recognize it until it is too late. Caroline knows it,"This is the way Caroline describes Demelza:
Ross says, "Demelza did give him encouragement, of a sort. She was always exchanging asides with him, making another appointment – or at least permitting him to. And she allowed him to paw her—’ ‘Oh, nonsense!’ Caroline said. ‘It is Demelza’s way to be friendly – to flirt a little out of sheer high spirits. Whenever she goes out, as you well know, some man or another is always attracted by her peculiar vitality and charm. When she is enjoying herself she can’t resist giving off this – this challenging sparkle. And men come to it. And she enjoys that. But in all innocence, Ross, for God’s sake! ... Ross half laughed. ‘You must know that jealousy flares only when there is risk.’ ‘And do you seriously think that Monk Adderley constituted a risk?’ ‘I . . . thought so.
Previously, Caroline had told Demelza, "I verily believe that if you and I walked together into a roomful of eligible men, they would immediately all look at me; but in five minutes they would all come to be clustered round you! It is an enviable complaint, for which I think there is no remedy.’ ‘Thank you, but it’s not so." Caroline says, "If I were Ross I should keep you under lock and key."
Ken wrote: "Demelza even left the door open to his advances when he broke in their room......"Next time we meet.'..... and after he touched her breast....'Not now. Another time, sir'..."This had nothing to do with her concern for Moke's feeling. It had everything to do with her basic approach to how she deals with people. It just isn't Demelza's way to so direct. She was not leaving the door open and he clearly knew it. The "Not now. Another time, sir" and the "Perhaps I may wait upon you some other time'........... Demelza 'Please do"" is not an invitation to come back. This was not an invitation to try again later, and he knew it when he says the problem is not me but that you are afraid of you husband and he asks if he beats her. She says yes. Neither are serious. You can't really think he is waiting for a call to take up Ross's whip. Not giving Ross all the details was because she knew he would go off the deep end. At that, things do not go well after this even thought he knows that she threw him out, which is what he wanted her to do.
Bernie wrote: "But in all innocence, Ross, for God’s sake! ... Ross half laughed. ‘You must know that jealousy flares only when there is risk.’ ‘And do you seriously think that Monk Adderley constituted a risk?’ ‘I . . . thought so..."
Caroline's quote proves my point...... Demelza knew there was no risk.... Caroline knew there was no risk.... Ross thought there WAS risk. Demelza wasn't in touch with Ross's hatred of Monk, even after he told her how it bothered him..... I can't believe Demelza
couldn't override her "sparkle" for her husband's piece of mind.
Allowing Monk's advances after Ross explained it was bring up
"old feelings" was stupid of Demelza in my opinion, was she not at all concerned with the divide between them returning?
You said in a previous post that Demelza would have done anything to see the submersion of closeness return, but shutting down Monk was too much to ask?
Thanks for trying to talk me down, buddy! I know way Demelza's nature is, but I can't get it out of my mind that she was totally blind to Ross's feelings that were getting stirred up because she didn't stop Monk's advances....... Honestly, if that's and uncontrollable urge Ross might be better off without her. Her resolve melted once, I'd worry when the next shoe would drop, which is what I think Ross is concerned about.
Of course he was worried, and behave accordingly so that the situation would never happen. If only he had been appropriately worried when Hugh preside Demelsa things would have been different. . Remember what Hugh's uncle had said to him the day before Hugh left for the Navy. ‘You have a pretty wife and a worthy one,’ Falmouth said.‘Appreciate her while you still have her. Life is uncertain.’
All that said, the problem was that they really did not talk. After Hugh's death what did he do. He went to London for eight months. When he returned what was the first thing he said to her, was it I love you and I miss you? No it was did you fret for Hugh. Even when they went to London he did not say anything to Demelza until he blowup with the "if he supposes I shall stand by and watch him attempting to cuckold me." speech. The upshot of all of this was that when Monk arrived she through him out.
Ken if you were Ross you might have done some things different, you might have thrown Demelza out. But that is not what he did and he seems to have been better off for not taking his lead from you. If you have not read the following books you don't know how much better off-- two more kids, and a loving family. Remember, even when he returns from London with this fresh in his mind this is what he say, "What was done in London was not well done. ... In our lives before this we’ve each given the other cause for deep offence. .... ‘This time,’ Ross said, ‘I’m the chief offender – maybe the only one. At least I plead no excuse." That does not sound like a person that thinks he would be better off without his wife.
Bernie wrote: "Of course he was worried, and behave accordingly so that the situation would never happen. If only he had been appropriately worried when Hugh preside Demelsa things would have been different. . Re..."Bernie, let me clarify a bit. If Eleanore was truly Demelza, I'd forgive her anything..... She's crackers in bed stuff. lol I'd buy em by the case. I'm not trying to pick apart what I consider to be an exceptional story, and could only be rich because of the way Winston told it.
Like all readers some things bother me, and Demelza's inability to easy Ross' mind about Monk is one of the big ones. I just didn't see the effort after she knew how important it was to him.
Your taking quite a bit of liberty saying the first thing he said to Demelza was about Monk cuckolding him. :)) We know it wasn't..... Still that should have told Demelza exactly what he was fearing. I don't think Demelza understood just how little trust Ross had in her.... She had buried her feeling when Hugh went in the ground, but Ross's anger festered and grew.
It's unfair of you to say Ross didn't try to talk about Hugh... he ask several times what her feelings were. It was Demelza that was evasive and didn't want to talk.
Ken wrote: "Your taking quite a bit of liberty saying the first thing he said to Demelza was about Monk cuckolding him. :)) .."Your right. Here is the complete exchange between them concerning Monk. But I don't think it makes a difference. They really didn't talk until then and then she did what he wanted to send Monk on his way.
'I'm sorry, sir, but I am engaged.' 'By whom?' 'My husband.' 'Your husband! My dear, it is simply not done! It is not permitted for married people to eat together! Not in London society.' 'I'm sorry. I thought it was . . . But if you feel like a cannibal, might you not mistake what you were eating?' Adderley's eyes crinkled. 'That I might, ma'am. You, for instance. I have a catholic taste. Look . . . Poldark is busy with Drommie. He can lead her in. I promise we'll sit at the same table.'
Swift thoughts: this man George's friend: Ross doesn't like him: but this an evening out: how to refuse? . . . needless offence . . .
She said: 'Then let us all go in together! Ross . . . Captain Adderley is becoming ferocious for food. Shall we all eat now?' She saw a mild glint on Ross's face when he turned, though it would have been imperceptible to anyone less attuned to his feelings. He said: 'By all means,' though the words lacked enthusiasm. On Adderley's arm Demelza walked to the supper room, followed by Ross and Andromeda.
'Ross,' she said, 'Captain Adderley has paid us the compliment of saying he would wait upon us. While that would be - quite delightful, I was suggesting instead that we should all meet at the play on Thursday. You were telling me that we should go, Captain Adderley.'
The Poldark coach was called soon after, and Demelza was handed in, and they moved creakingly away. There was silence for a while and then Ross said: 'Monk Adderley is a freakish fellow.' 'Freakish . . . yes. I am a little scared of him.' 'It did not seem so. You asked him to join us at supper and have invited him to the theatre on Thursday.' Demelza struggled with the difficulty of explaining. 'In the first instance he had just asked me to go in to supper with him alone. I'm not sure of the courtesies in London, but I thought it might be insulting to refuse. So I suggested we should all go together.' 'And in the second instance?' 'I thought he and you were going to start growling at each other like a couple of tomcats, so I said the first thing that came into my head to stop it.'
They were crossing Oxford Road, … Ross said: Well, I suppose we must endure him on Thursday.' 'Ross.' Demelza turned her head and the light from a passing link-boy showed up her intent expression. 'Caroline had a word with me about him during the evening. She told us not to take him serious. Not me. Not you. Especially not you. She said you must always treat him as a joke.' Ross pursed his lips. 'Adderley. Yes. He is a joke. But I think we must watch him lest the joke turn sour.'
They took a box at Drury Lane, which cost Ross twenty shillings and held four seats, … Dwight and Caroline were in the next box.' … Ross looked vague. He had been more than a little preoccupied with angers that were swirling up in him. … Half joking, Ross said to Dwight: 'Perhaps I shall have to take Demelza home soon. She is not going to be safe here. 'I believe she's safe, Ross. She can look to herself.' 'That,' said Ross, 'was what I used to think.'
…….
Monk said to Demelza. "You have a sharp tongue, which I shall find very entertaining in due course. And shall know what to do with. On Monday, then. At nine.' Before Demelza could speak Caroline said: 'There's room for two in our coach. We'll take you home. Can you find a chair, Monk?' Adderley said: 'I shall go to White's for an hour. Would you care to accompany me, Poldark? You can go in as my guest.' Ross hesitated, and then said amiably: 'Thank you, no, I think not. I'm not rich enough to be able to lose money nor poor enough to wish to gain it.' 'What a tedious thought,' said Adderley. 'The importance of money is that it should always be treated as of no importance.'
Later that night, just as Demelza was dozing off to sleep, Ross said: 'D'you know for once I believe Adderley was right' [about money]. 'All the same,' Ross said, 'Adderley may be right in that, but he is wrong in all else. Wrong especially if he supposes I shall stand by and watch him attempting to cuckold me.'
'And do you serious think he has the slightest chance?' Ross did not answer. Demelza sat sharply up in bed, wide awake now. 'Ross, what are you thinking of? You are not serious in supposing . . . Because - because once something happened, because once I felt deeply about another man; do you think, do you suppose I am like to do that again - with the first such who comes along? Am I condemned - because of - of Hugh Armitage - to be suspected of feeling the same for every man who pays me some special attention?' When he still didn't speak she said: 'Ross!' 'No,' he said judicially. 'It could not happen again - certainly not with a man like Captain Adderley.' 'Then you should make it clearer to me that it can't.' 'How?' 'By not encouraging him.' 'I do not encourage him! I have to be polite!' 'Why?' She made a despairing gesture. 'Sometimes, Ross, you try me hard. You really do. I am - I am in London for the first time. It is a new society. I am your wife - truly, truly in more than name again, in more than mere act again, after so long. I am happy, excited, living in a new way. A man comes up to me and starts paying me compliments. He is a - he is educated, well bred, a member of Parliament. Do I turn my back on him to please you? Do I smack his face to satisfy you? Do I sit in a corner and refuse to answer him? Better that I should never have come!' 'Better that you should never have come than he should contrive to paw you. He must know every bone in your left arm from wrist to shoulder.' There was silence. 'Then tell me what I must do,' Demelza said. 'Do you wish me to go home?' 'Of course not!' 'Tell me how I must behave then.' 'You know very well how to behave.' 'That's not fair! Anyway,' Demelza said mutinously, 'he won't take no for an answer. He says he is coming to take me to Vauxhall next Monday when you are in the House.' 'And shall you go?' 'Certainly not! I shall be out - or unwell. A fever might be most likely to cool his ardour . . . Perhaps I could paint some spots on my face and squint through the window at him . . . Ross, do not let this spoil our time here . . .' 'No,' he said, 'no,' and put an arm about her shoulders, 'but one cannot always contain or order one's feelings, and when I see you in the company of another man - being touched and pressed by him - my mind - or something in me - turns up old feelings, old thoughts, old resentments. Which aren't so very old.'
A basket of flowers came next morning. Ross was for throwing it out, but Demelza could not tolerate this. Flowers to her were objects of interest and pleasure, no matter where they came from; and there were some in this bunch that she had never seen before.
After Monk's visit
The Poldarks' second week was not as pleasant as the first. Demelza had told Ross of Adderley's visit, though she had glossed over the details. It was better that he should know from her than find out by accident and suppose she was deceiving him. … But their relationship did not settle down to what it had been before. A cloud of non-explanation and misunderstanding lay around them and could give rise to forked lightning at any time.
Bernie wrote: " It was better that he should know from her than find out by accident and suppose she was deceiving him. …..."It appears Demelza learned something from her Hugh experience, doesn't it?
Thanks Bernie, yes I read the same passages today again.
I guess I have the same question Ross does.... why does Demelza need to be polite to this fop... Ross certainly doesn't want a friendship or political partnership with Monk....Does Demelza realize when she's seen in public like the play with Monk pawing her arm, every man there that knows Monk and his reputation will think she's an easy score? I think her trying to be polite probably hurt Ross' reputation much more than it helped. If it continued Demelza would surly be labeled a "loose" woman.
Look, I'm not saying she was throwing herself at Monk, of course not. So what could she have done differently? Well, once she saw it was Monk in their room she could have stepped into the hall and ask him to leave because her husband wasn't home.
Of course Ross overreacted to the Monk thing, he still doesn't trust his wife, and for good reason. That's the price she is still paying for her choices.
Ken, she really is a country girl in more than one way. This is the first time she is out of Cornwall She is interaction with people who are way out of her class. Her husband is a member of Parliament. She really does not how to act and how far she can go. When Ross says, you know how to act and she says that is not fair, she really is right. She does not know what is expected. And after the duel she did the right thing and got out of there. When she get home she thinks that maybe she should have stayed to support Ross. When Ross gets home he tells her that no, she did the right thing to leave. Do you still think that Ross would be better off without her? Well Ross certainly doesn’t think so.
I think you are correct. A great many have commented that Demelza should have confessed to Ross of her adultery with Hugh and apologized. I agree with you that do do so would have only further hurt their marriage. Sometimes it is better to say nothing, which is what they say to each other after Ross returns from London at the end of TAT. They both paid a terrible price for her affair with Hugh.