*RESOLVED?* Ender's endgame.

[Allan]

@Art: I thought Children of the Mind was the 4th book of that cycle & read it as such. But maybe it should be considered separately.

[Art, Stay home, stay safe.]

Allan wrote: "@Art: I thought Children of the Mind was the 4th book of that cycle & read it as such. But maybe it should be considered separately."

The original parameters for the mission of determining whether a volume belonging to a series was essential or not was:

Does the "related read" belonging to the same series add depth to the award-winning title?

So in case of Dune, for example, Vol.1 and Vol3 are the award-winning titles. Selecting Vol.2 as an essential related read was a no-brainer. I personally nominated Vol.4 as an essential read because without it some of the events in the first three volumes make little sense. Nobody objected so we went with it.

So for Ender's Game we have those 3 titles, but if there is anything we have to add to the list, we can revise it so that the overall experience is richer.

[Kristenelle]

Allan wrote: "@Art: I thought Children of the Mind was the 4th book of that cycle & read it as such. But maybe it should be considered separately."

I would include it. I consider those four books to be the "Ender series." Then there is the "Bean series" and then there are all the extra things for if you really need more from the universe including the short stories and "Ender in Exile."

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I love this group! Everyone is so nice here!

[Joe]

Oleksandr wrote: "I fully agree that both Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide are great books. Sadly, the authors political and social views led to his breakup with the current SFF fandom :("

That and he starting writing bad 'thrillers' that focused on those views. (I tried one, it read like a Fox News wish fufillment piece)

My view is horrendous political views or not, he's still written some great books that show an understanding of the human condition that makes me wonder how he can have the views he does.

I'll never buy one of his books again, but he was my first love in Sci fi (before there was an internet and I knew about him as a person), and I'll always love the Ender series and Alvin Maker.

[Joe]

Art wrote: "Ed wrote: "
I'm interested in why this topic was marked "RESOLVED." for reading order, when I'm not sure it was resolved, or even much discussed...."

This topic is 2 years old. The list if works t..."

I'd actually add 'Ender in Exile' (which comes between Enders Game and Speaker for the Dead) to get the full story.

Children of the Mind really is a totally different book set many, many generations in the future, and I think it can be considered an epilogue/new book in the same universe kinda thing,

[Art, Stay home, stay safe.]

Joe wrote: "I'd actually add 'Ender in Exile' (which comes between Enders Game and Speaker for the Dead) to get the full story."

This is the dynamic we are kind of going for, looking for related works that enhance the experience of the award winning titles.

So if you say it enhances the experience by giving a more complete picture of the story or universe, then we should probably give it a go.

@Allan and Kristen, do you guys think we'd need that 4th book to complete the story or did you just name it because it belongs to the same universe?

[Kristenelle]

Eh, it depends on how complete you want to be. Imo, Enders game functions just fine as a stand alone. The following books all continue the story. Children of the mind finishes the stories of what happens to the alien races introduced in the other books. So yeah, I’d say it is necessary for full completion of the story.

[Kristenelle]

At the same time, ender in exile fills in some information, but is very weak as a novel imo. It fills out the story but I wouldn’t call it necessary.

[Allan]

I named it because I read it on the heels of the others and thought it was part of the same set - though none of them are labeled as the “Ender Saga”. At the time, there wasn’t a Bean series or Ender in Exile, so i took it as a continuation of the Ender series. I was reminded of Children of Dune in a sense. It won’t kill me if you don’t list it, I was just saying that’s how I read it.

[Art, Stay home, stay safe.]

Given what you all are saying we may list them all as a series, read it as a challenge and then just review that list and post or thoughts on it and revise the list later.

This will be my last venture into the Ender's Saga, so I don't mind checking an extra title or two.

[Joe]

Kristen wrote: "At the same time, ender in exile fills in some information, but is very weak as a novel imo. It fills out the story but I wouldn’t call it necessary."

I'd agree it's not that great, but it does tell a story that is referenced in both Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead.

Obviously it's not necessary, since it came out far later than the others, but it does fill a hole that I suspect many readers will be curious about if they don't read it.

[Ed]

If you are trying to read books starting with every letter, Xenocide could be your friend!

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Ed wrote: "If you are trying to read books starting with every letter, Xenocide could be your friend!"

Is X on a cover replaces X in the title, like:

?

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

It's not my game, so I cannot say, but I think yes. Any of the more difficult letters should be

Thanks for the suggestion, Ed, but I'm probably going to go and find an Xmen book for X. I am certainly not going to slog though Xenocide again. I read it years ago, remember nothing about it except I thought it was a slog. Although I was one of the people that didn't like that (view spoiler)[Ender was sent away from Earth at the end of Ender's game, (hide spoiler)] so my initial read may been somewhat overshadowed by that.

And I now see that this discussion should be over here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

So I am going to paste all this over there

[Joe]

What I remember most about Xenocide is that I was SO excited to read it, I bought it on my way home from the book store of the day it was released, had dinner with my wife, then read the whole book. (I was quite tired at work the next day... finished it at 3 AM or so).

I definitely enjoyed it when I re-read the series last.

[Allan]

It was an interesting series but runs downhill and gets nondescript after the first two books. Ender’s Game was a wonderful, fast-paced action read. But then Speaker for the Dead just blew me away - arguably Card’s absolute best.

[Sarah]

Another one to add to the saga: The Last Shadow

"The Last Shadow is the long-awaited conclusion to both the original Ender series and the Ender's Shadow series".

Interested to see its reception; his more recent novels haven't received any accolades, although it's unclear whether that's because of the writing, or because of his personal opinions.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Sarah wrote: "Interested to see its reception; his more recent novels haven't received any accolades, although it's unclear whether that's because of the writing, or because of his personal opinions."

I guess both.

[Art, Stay home, stay safe.]

Sarah wrote: "Another one to add to the saga: The Last Shadow

"The Last Shadow is the long-awaited conclusion to both the original Ender series and the Ender's Shadow series".

Interested to see..."

Wow, he milked the universe for twenty books. I don't think I have the patience for that

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Art wrote: "Wow, he milked the universe for twenty books. I don't think I have the patience for that"

My feeling is that he came back to Ender universe MUCH later. And wrote more and more because those were his most popular books.

[Sarah]

Art wrote: "Wow, he milked the universe for twenty books. I don't think I have the patience for that".

Indeed. I thought it was just the mainline series, and then the Ender's shadow series, but there's the prequels and then a bunch of short stories.

I'm ambivalent about reading any more, let alone a dozen more books. Better hope the newest addition doesn't get any H/N nominations.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Sarah wrote: "Better hope the newest addition doesn't get any H/N nominations."

I guess it is extremely unlikely, even if the book is good

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I read perhaps the first three in the Ender's Shadow series, then got bored and quit. I know when I originally read Ender's game and then started into Speaker for the Dead, I was really disappointed that Ender was forced to leave earth. I was so interested in what happened to all the other children, for one thing.

I guess he finally decided to tell us in the Shadow series. But eventually . . . yawn.

[Art, Stay home, stay safe.]

Xenocide was by far a better book than the Speaker for the Dead.
I feel like whatever was wrong with the Speaker, was made whole in Xenocide.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Art wrote: "Xenocide was by far a better book than the Speaker for the Dead.
I feel like whatever was wrong with the Speaker, was made whole in Xenocide."

Well, maybe I will find out someday :-) I am pretty sure I read Xenocide at some point and didn't like it either. Didn't Ender (view spoiler)[move on to yet another planet? (hide spoiler)]

[Antti]

Art wrote: "Xenocide was by far a better book than the Speaker for the Dead."

See, this is why this group is so great: it's interesting someone can have such a different experience than I had. I remember thinking Speaker was equal to Ender in quality, but Xenocide was a hot mess. The characterization was all wrong and the ending was awkwardly bad.

But then again I haven't read either book in 20+ years, so perhaps I would feel differently if I re-read them today.

[Joe]

I got bored with the Bean series as well.... I didn't like making him essentially a superhero... seemed to cheapen the original a bit.

Not sure what they could possibly do with yet another book crammed in, but perhaps I'll check it out if the reviews are good.

[Art, Stay home, stay safe.]

Antti, re: Xenocide
I think I felt it the other way around. The Speaker to me felt forced. As if the author just stated one thing after the other for us to accept.
Xenocide was a take that tied up the loose ends, so whatever felt forced on readers such as myself, felt natural dye to the logical progression of things.
I agree that the ending was all over the place, making it hectic and awkward, but the core of it really shines through for me.