2018 MBI Shortlist: Vernon Subutex 1

[Paul]

Realised we hadn't linked this to the book so people's reviews were appearing in the header to messages - fixed now.

[Val]

Thanks Paul. I will get around to writing a review some time soon.
Unlike some of you, I enjoyed the first half much more than the second and might be changing my rating to three stars. That means I need to read the two I was not going to, so I can put the shortlist in order. (Very few books worthy of a MBI long-listing are likely to get less than three stars from me.)

[Paul]

Very few books worthy of a MBI long-listing are likely to get less than three stars from me either :-) Emphasis on worthy

[Val]

Ah well, you don't think this one was and I still do, although I'm no longer sure where to put it.

[Hugh, Active moderator]

I don't think it should win but it is memorable and must have been quite a technical challenge to translate...

[Val]

It starts out as a great novel about a sub-culture, complete with its internal language and morals. That I loved. The later parts of the book try to give a more contemporary and universal relevance. That did not work for me and I think it would have been better to stay within its narrow sub-culture, with (if one must) a possible break-out right at the end (aka "Trainspotting").
It is memorable and I haven't managed to settle to reading anything else since finishing it.

[Meike]

Hey Subutexians, I read and reviewed part 2 now: Come right here.

[Louise]

Interesting - did anyone read it in French? I'm reading it in Danish, and I'm only about 30 pages in, but so far no typos or bad punctuation etc :-)

[B. H.]

Louise wrote: "Interesting - did anyone read it in French? I'm reading it in Danish, and I'm only about 30 pages in, but so far no typos or bad punctuation etc :-)"

Hi Louise, I read it in French and then part of it in English to see how the translation compared.

The original French is entirely in the Parisian vernacular - so there are "typos" and "bad punctuations," but it makes sense as it is meant to be written in "dialect."

Essentially Despentes wrote the vast majority of her book (minus some descriptive passages) using the language a French person would use to communicate and - I'm assuming - think.

[Louise]

Guess that can be quite challenging for a translator to reflect in another language.

[Cordelia]

I really liked "Vernon Subutux". Gave it 5 stars.

It was right up there with Hunter S Thompson, Jack Kerouac, William Burroughs, Norman Mailer, and Thomas de Quincey. It was a pretty heavy read though remarkably easy to read. Had to have a break half way through (Magnus Mills) - but I did finish it.

[Paul]

So a question posed by the translator last night. What unusual word did he borrow directly from Anne Tyler's Man Booker shortlisted A Spool of Blue Thread?

To make it easier it is from this passage of VS1

[B. H.]

Any of you interested, Canal + is making a TV show based on the books

http://variety.com/2017/tv/global/can...

[Cordelia]

Barbara wrote: "Any of you interested, Canal + is making a TV show based on the books

http://variety.com/2017/tv/global/can......"

How on earth do you do that?

[Paul]

The German translation has also been shortlisted for their main translation prize.

https://www.hkw.de/en/programm/projek...

[Antonomasia, Admin only]

Finally published in the US today!

Which also means it's eligible for the 2019 Goodreads Choice Awards. I have changed the publication date in the record so it can be voted for. (Though I suspect that most frequent posters in the group would vote for Ducks if they bother with the awards.)

[Hugh, Active moderator]

Antonomasia wrote: "Finally published in the US today!

Which also means it's eligible for the 2019 Goodreads Choice Awards. I have changed the publication date in the record so it can be voted for. (Though I suspect ..."

What's the point - Atwood will win anyway...

[Antonomasia, Admin only]

Adjusting these dates is, at least for some librarians, part of a seasonal ritual. But as someone who hardly does Christmas decorations (though I do really like Christmas), I can't really criticise anyone else for not wanting to bother.

[Ella]

Antonomasia wrote: "Finally published in the US today!

Which also means it's eligible for the 2019 Goodreads Choice Awards. I have changed the publication date in the record so it can be voted for. (Though I suspect ..."

I find this shocking. I bought it from a UK store, I suppose. It feels like it's been AGES since I read this one.

And yep, I just voted in the GR choice awards - seeing The Testaments on the first page didn't bring me joy. I wanted to Kondo it.

[Antonomasia, Admin only]

I'm curious whether / how much they've changed it for the US market. I assume some of the delay is because of substantial re-editing. It read very British to me, with a lot of echoes of music press writing that British people ten years either side of Vernon's age would especially recognise.

[Ella]

This happens pretty frequently, and it's often really pointless. As a person who sometimes reads both editions, the US one is ALWAYS dumbed down considerably. It's like they think we're a nation of morons (we are, but still.)

Or, like David Mitchell, the author is working with two different publishing houses at two different times and the book ends up being different by accident.

[Jibran]

I might be writing this with a half-understanding of the phenomenon but I find it strange, really strange, that books of literature should be edited to suit the US market.

Shouldn't a book, originally in English or in translation, retain whatever the author had originally written and published as finished work, its time and place, its language (including how the words are spelt) and its range of historico-cultural references, as an integral or at least important part of the novel?

The fact that authors edit or allow their books to be edited to make them suitable (easy? relatable? more familiar? dumbed down?) for the US market is quite troubling. I know the revenues are big, but still, why not trust the intelligence of American readers to work out the unfamiliar and therefore learning something new?

This reminds of an anecdote of an Urdu writer who was once told that his books were full of obscure references and difficult words and that he should write more plainly, to which he replied, "I have done my job, now I expect the reader to do his." And that was in the 1960s. There's no excuse for it in the age of info-tech we live in.

Btw, what about all those books full of so much Americanisms - a whole range of cultural, social, historical, and other references - which readers around the world take as is and are expected to understand as if it's something popular and universal? (which it's clearly not from my perspective). If I read something like this I strive to find out more about it if the book is very interesting, or just skip along if it's not central to what I'm reading. But I still don't want editors to decide for me that I wouldn't understand or care.

[Antonomasia, Admin only]

This was a translation in the first place though, so it is not a British original being altered for the US market. It was a French book that sounded really quite British because its English translator is British.

[Antonomasia, Admin only]

Contracts with large publishers may also depend on this. A small indie is more likely to be okay with (or want to) leave original details, or not Americanise. But this is published by FSG.

[Ella]

I think the main problem is that UK publishers usually hold the English language rights for the UK & Europe, while the US ones usually hold for US, South & North America & who knows what else. All of this started a while ago. I suppose b/c it seemed impossible to get books from the UK to the US? I honestly don't know why they divide them up like this, but it drives me nuts b/c it's so pointless.

And yes, Jibran, you're entirely right - there is no reason for the US audience to be treated like idiots or for anything to be rewritten for the US market. They don't rewrite books originally written by UK authors from what we once thought of as 'the cannon' so why are they changing newer books?

That said, I do think there have been some cringeworthy attempts to Americanize books like The Heart of Darkness, and they usually fail spectacularly. As for translations, I'm all for giving more translators work, but there isn't really a need for a separate UK/ US translator. That's actually just silly, but it's an artifact of these entirely separate markets, I think?

[Antonomasia, Admin only]

You do see American reviewers on GR complaining that books are too British, though, so there's something in it. (Even if in this group it's more often been the other way round.)

[Ella]

Yes, well, we get back to the "american idiot" version of every argument eventually. I just don't think it's a good reason to create differences in books that travel across the pond.

I did just write a review that complained about someone sounding "too british" but that was the very specific case of Edna O'Brien writing a book supposedly narrated by a Nigerian girl.

[Jibran]

Ella wrote: "...but there isn't really a need for a separate UK/ US translator. That's actually just silly, but it's an artifact of these entirely separate markets, I think?"

I'd expect a French book to sound the same in English whether translated by a British or an American translator, except for different ways of translating colloquialisms and how certain words are spelt/spelled, which isn't a big issue.

[Antonomasia, Admin only]

This is a very colloquial book though, and also dependent on subcultural idiom to an extent - a scene populated mostly by characters in their late 40s and early 50s who were part of a just-pre-internet music scene when there was more difference between British and American idioms in equivalent scenes.

[Jibran]

Antonomasia wrote: "This is a very colloquial book though, and also dependent on subcultural idiom to an extent - a scene populated mostly by characters in their late 40s and early 50s who were part of a just-pre-inte..."

That's interesting. It's got me thinking which of the two translations I'd prefer if I were to read this book...

[Antonomasia, Admin only]

I'm wary of how effective an edited version might even be. It would be an expense no-one would actually go to these days, but the ideal would be a fresh translation by an American who was of an age to have spent time on the early 90s grunge scene.

[Jibran]

Ella wrote: "I did just write a review that complained about someone sounding "too british" but that was the very specific case of Edna O'Brien writing a book supposedly narrated by a Nigerian girl."

That's legit. I read a book recently in which a character from rural Pakistan sounds too much American. And that's a book originally written in English. I've attributed it to the problems with the narrator's voice as the author has imagined it - a mimetic discrepancy. Or perhaps the author understood the need to 'connect' with readers in Anglosphere and therefore lent him a 'familiar' voice.

[Antonomasia, Admin only]

Ella wrote: "I did just write a review that complained about someone sounding "too british" but that was the very specific case of Edna O'Brien writing a book supposedly narrated by a Nigerian girl. "

Oh, I didn't mean this one. That is a legitimate and significant criticism of that book.

The specific examples I can remember are popular history rather than fiction, so not much use here, though I know I've seen it in community reviews of fiction.

[Ella]

Antonomasia wrote: "This is a very colloquial book though, and also dependent on subcultural idiom to an extent..."
&
Jibran responded: "That's interesting. It's got me thinking which of the two translations I'd prefer if I were to read this book..."

You know - this really did make me think. Perhaps the BEST translator would be someone who spent their time between the actual Paris scene & the similar UK or US scene at that time. Someone bilingual who knew the lingo of both scenes equally. Obviously, that's a wishful wish, but this book might be very different if that was the case. I'm now interested in the US version and want to take a peek at it, but I don't want to buy another copy.

My library has a bunch of her books, but none of the Vernon trio yet seem to even be on order.

[WndyJW]

Our family loves a game called Buzzwords in which one person on a team gives hints to their team so that they can guess a word or expression, one of the expression was, “as different as chalk and cheese,” we quickly discovered Buzzwords was developed in the UK.