Childhood of Jesus - Whole Book, Spoilers allowed (Mar 2018)

[LindaJ^]

This thread is for discussion of the whole book. Spoilers are allowed.

I'll start with a couple of questions I have. Feel free to weigh in on them, pose a question or more of your own, or just tell us what you thought of the book.

It did not occur to me to consider this book dystopian, but the review from the NY Times by Carol Joyce Oates raises it as a possibility. Did it strike anyone as dystopian and, if so, why?

I was particularly struck by how the city of Novilla works. It seems to be a socialist utopia of some sort. No one seems to go hungry, although the food seems mostly bland and non-meat. Everyone who wants seems to be able to have a job, although the job doesn't seem to have anything to do with ability or skill. And everyone seems to have a place to sleep. Most people seem content with their lot, although there is the occasional reprobate such as Dago. Simon, while somewhat disturbed by the lack of passion, doesn't consider leaving until it is necessary to go to keep David from being sent to Punto Arenas (which sounds like reform school). Is David considered a problem because he is not conforming to the norms of the utopia?

[Hugh]

Thanks Linda. I enjoyed parts of this book quite a lot, liked the simple direct storytelling but some of the allusion was a little heavy handed and I didn't really think the ending added much. I can see the allusions to Jesus in David's story, but I really don't think this book has anything to do with religion except in its general philosophical sense. I was surprised when looking through friend reviews how many people strongly disliked it.

Thinking about my previous experiences of reading Coetzee and where this one stands, I am not sure I would recommend any of them without reservations but I never regret reading them.

[LindaJ^]

Hugh, I agree with your conclusion about reading Coetzee. I don't regret reading his books but they are not ones I'm inclined to recommend. He is easy to read, even if I am not sure what message he is sending or point he wants to get across. Have you read the blurb for The Schooldays of Jesus? It left me with the impression that reading it might make Childhood more understandable.

[Hugh]

I have not read Schooldays, but the blurb suggests more of the same to me. From what I remember of the 2016 Booker discussion it didn't get much support, but because it was released after the longlist announcement it didn't get that many readers then either.

[Irene]

I am about 3/4 in the book and find that religious references are given very clearly. Simon was also the name of apostle Peter and I think Simon is also David's rock in the book. David is also described as "a lifesaver, an escape artist and a magician", all of which are characteristic of a Jesus-like figure. For example, the scene where David treats wine to everyone present from a single drinking vessel is a representation of Holy Communion, at least in the Greek Orthodox Church that I am familiar with.
I also enjoy the interplay of religion with Platonic philosophy, as in the Institute's seminars on the physical and the ideal shape of everything, as in the "chairness" of the chair. David also calls Mickey Mouse's dog Plato rather than Pluto.
I always enjoy Coetzee's work, Disgrace is one of my favourites.

[LindaJ^]

Irene, can you say a little more about what you mean about the interplay of religion with Platonic philosophy and why you think Coetzee has included it?

Hugh, in your review you note that the setup of the book "seems to be a way to allow Coetzee to discuss his ideas of what it means to be human, and what a society can and cannot provide." I see this with Simon, as he is not content with what has been provided by the utopia he finds himself in. But others seem to be quite content. Do you think Coetzee is saying Simon is more human than those who are content?

[Hugh]

LindaJ^ wrote: "Do you think Coetzee is saying Simon is more human than those who are content?"
Not necessarily, maybe just less susceptible to indoctrination and brainwashing.

[Irene]

Thanks, LindaJ. The more I read the book, the more I am convinced that it is set in Plato's Cave from the Republic. In his Cave parable, he talks about people living in a cave and only seeing what is going on around them through the shadows that reach them. He explains that they are used to living in such as a state, that even if someone climbed down there with a string to let them out, they wouldn't believe him (another reference to Don Quixote falling in the hole). How I see it, it is like David/Jesus is down to save them but they won't listen. Instead they want to institutionalise the boy.

There are concepts and themes from all of Plato's writings scattered in the text, here are a few examples: Plato's ethical view is that of "eudaimonism," that is, that goodness is to be understood in terms of conduciveness to human happiness, well-being, or flourishing, which may also be understood as "living well," or "doing well".

As far as his religious beliefs are concerned, Plato suggested that no one really knows what happens after death, but it is reasonable to think that death is not an evil; there may be an afterlife. In his writings, Plato introduces the idea that souls are immortal and existed before our births. All knowledge, he explains, is actually recollected from this prior existence.

In his theory of forms, Plato came up with the idea that all physical manifestations of things are imperfect. An ideal form of the thing could never exist in the physical world but it could exist in in a higher reality. This "form" is what connects different specimens of the same thing together, as in the "tableness" of a table, just like in the chair seminar at the Institute.

Finally, in both the Republic and the Laws, Plato identifies education as one of the most important aspects of a healthy state. He goes on to explain not only what children should study but also what values they should be exposed to and what kinds of art and physical exercise they should engage in. Plato thinks that a child’s education is the last thing that should be left to chance or parental whim, since the young mind is so easily molded.

There are too many other oblique references to list here. But I think it gives us an idea, that is if I am not completely mistaken.

[LindaJ^]

Thanks Irene. I'm not very familiar with Plato's work. Interesting to hear about the parallels you found.

One or more of the reviews noted possible themes from Buddhism, which I have as little understanding of as I have with Plato. Anyone see those themes?

[Sue]

Thanks for all the references to Plato Irene. It's been a very long time since my "Intro to Philosophy" class in college, but I did immediately think "tableness" when the characters in the book were going on about chairs.

I thought the book was very reminiscent of Kafka - and then I read the Joyce Carol-Oates review and found she thought the same thing. It felt a bit like everyone was stuck in place, and any effort to break free was met with unbendable bureaucracy.

I think there are a lot of layers to the book beyond the simple story with allusions to religion and philosophy. But I'm left wondering what exactly the author was trying to communicate to us. I feel like I've been led down a path to no where with this book.

[LindaJ^]

That is what I also wonder, Sue -- what is the author trying to tell us. The reviewers did not seem to catch it either.

[LindaJ^]

Thank you all for participating in this discussion.

[Lily]

Sue wrote: "...But I'm left wondering what exactly the author was trying to communicate to us. I feel like I've been led down a path to no where with this book...."

I am at Chapter 17 today. One of the more enigmatic reads that I have encountered. If not reading for this thread, I might well have laid it aside.

Yet, the writing "feels" excellent. My difficulty seems more what is "being written about." Not really the story -- that feels like alternatively dystopia and trying to imagine some socialist/communistic utopia. I find a particular chapter startles -- like what was Coetzee wrestling with when he wrote this one? I see the parallels with "big ideas" -- but they don't really drill down for me. They sometimes feel like an effort to shock, cushioned by politeness and good manners that may have been forgotten or ignored for a few minutes. The characters both seem to try to engage and then feint and sort of shadow box.

[LindaJ^]

Lily, you seem to be landing in a space others have, including me.

[Lily]

About the day I finished TCOJ, I saw the third episode of the revised series of "Roseanne" (I had missed the infamous premiere). As I thought about the show and book, the similarity in both having oblique, oft harsh, looks at current life struck me more and more, whether global commerce whose abundance may become rat infested, or the fragility and dangers of the introduction of technology into work, or the questionable value of philosophy versus nude figure drawing in that local adult education program.

[LindaJ^]

I have not seen the new Roseanne show and as interesting as your comment is, it will probably not make the very short list of TV shows I watch! But after re-reading you second sentence a few times, I remember the scenes you are pointing out and the current life issues you relate to them. I will ponder that for awhile.