Date A Book YA Book Club discussion
Tempests and Slaughter
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Tempests and Slaughter: Week 2
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Tamora Pierce is such a huge advocate for women's rights. Though this series isn’t led by a female voice, as all her other Tortall novels are, and Tamora still finds ways of empowering the women in her novel – this is especially true when you look at the fabulous Varice Kingsford.
Varice, like both Arram and Ozorne, is part of a select group of students who have been advanced in their studies because of how powerful and intelligent they are. But unlike Arram and Ozorne, who question which direction they will send their Gifts, Varice knows exactly what she wants to do with her powers: work kitchen magic. She comes up against so much resistance and ridicule for not going after battle magic or something "worth her time and effort" - from parents who forbid her from spending time in the kitchen, to fellow students thinking she's only able to be around Ozorne because she's probably sleeping with him (and Arram). And yet, she remains true to herself and her passion with kitchen spells and exploring the types of charms that can go into the food and drinks to be consumed. It is the one area that makes her happy, and she's determined to keep at it. Tamora has a way of not looking down on any position a woman chooses to be in or judging them for going after what makes them happy.
I loved the menagerie! Seeing Arram doting over the animals and his new friend in later chapters was lovely. Another aspect I loved was Varice and her kitchen magic. Varice is an incredibly strong young woman who also isn't afraid to be vulnerable. She's passionate about potions which also compliments Arran's healing abilities. Kitchen magic isn't lesser than any other area of magic and I love that Varice knows the importance of her work. Especially helping Ozorne out in later chapters.
Kelly (Diva Booknerd) wrote: "I loved the menagerie! Seeing Arram doting over the animals and his new friend in later chapters was lovely. Another aspect I loved was Varice and her kitchen magic. Varice is an incredibly stron..."
I completely agree with you -- Arram and the menagerie is amazing! And I love seeing the characters that we get to read about in later series as well.
I didn't love Varice as much though. I definitely think she's a strong female character, but I felt like she was reduced to a tag-a-long to the Arram and Ozorne friendship. This honestly just might have been the way I read it, but I will say that I love how she's very content with who she is and really knows herself.
Does anyone else wish that we had gotten longer books for the Lioness, Immortals, and Protector of the Small series? After reading Numair, I just keep wishing we'd gotten lengthier novels for my other favourite characters too!
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Alexandra, do you think you were guarding yourself against growing attached to certain characters because you know where some of them end up later in the Tortall timeline? Do you think Varice's involvement in the series could grow in the next book?
It's true that Varice doesn't have the same amount of page presence as Ozorne and Arram, but she does serve an important role in bringing the two of them together - and in shaping Arram's life skills. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, as Arram was going to be assigned as Ozorne's roommate either way. But he may not have had the chance to form a bond with Ozorne if Varice hadn't been the one pushing them all together.
Honestly, really good point. I actually do think that because I know that Varice isn't a long term figure in Arram's life, I was less inclined to develop strong feelings about her role. I think I was coming from the perspective of "I know she doesn't choose him in the future, so I'm not to concerned about her at the moment". (I also have to say, I love that this board is making me challenge my thoughts on her!)
I completely see her value as drawing Arram out of himself and being the bridge between him and Ozorne, but while reading, I mostly found myself annoyed by her a lot of the time -- she felt superfluous to me. I may reread the book tomorrow and try to see if I see her with new eyes :)
Mod
We're really glad you're enjoying the discussions! And we'll admit, we were in the same boat as you the first time we read Tempests and Slaughter. It's hard to remove that knowledge you already have of familiar characters and even harder to see them in a different light.
We think her role in shaping Arram's life is still in development. They're only getting started. She's definitely made important steps to drawing him out, as you pointed out, but we have a feeling there's a lot more than will come out about her.
Mod
There are obviously a couple of Masters you'd want to avoid *cough*Chioke*cough* - but Arram's main masters are all super supportive! And you're right, it's nice that they're not all men - and that the women aren't teaching "lesser" subjects either. The illusions Arram learns will become very important for him, so Dagani's class is one of those that stands out for us as a strong and powerful lesson.
Alexandra wrote: "Honestly, really good point. I actually do think that because I know that Varice isn't a long term figure in Arram's life, I was less inclined to develop strong feelings about her role. I think I w..."She... She isn't?
Mod
Oh dear...we were hoping you didn't spot that one! It's a fine line to walk when there's more than one series involving the same characters.
But you know what this means, Kelly? There's a whole world of things to learn and still to come! And we can promise, it'll be exciting and you'll love the future characters in Arram's life! Varice has an extremely important role in shaping his person, she's not going anywhere just yet.
Kelly (Diva Booknerd) wrote: "Alexandra wrote: "Honestly, really good point. I actually do think that because I know that Varice isn't a long term figure in Arram's life, I was less inclined to develop strong feelings about her..."I call myself a massive Tamora Pierce fan and I actually had just forgotten most of what happens in the later series, so I'm really attached to the three friends (even problematic Ozone) but then I went and reread the Wild Magic series.. and now I need more in this series to understand WHAT THE HECK HAPPENS IN BETWEEN.
But at the moment, Varice is a total bad ass, I love how she's kind of the Hermione of the group, bringing the silly mens together and being confident in her own powers.
I actually really like Arram's healing lessons - it just shows what a compassionate smol cinnamon bun he is <3 and you get more insight into the awful slavery. And when he juggles for the children - oh my heart.
Also, magicanimalsmagicanimalsmagicanimals. Give me more.
Date A Book wrote: "Kelly (Diva Booknerd) wrote: "She... She isn't? "Oh dear...we were hoping you didn't spot that one! It's a fine line to walk when there's more than one series involving the same characters.
But..."
When it comes to prequels, spoilers are usually inevitable unfortunately. The discussion has only made me want to pick up her other novels sooner. Which other series is Arram featured heavily in?
Hey Kelly, a Date a Book member here *waves*Arram is the main guy in The Immortals series - but he has a different name in that series: Numair Salmalin
(which is also why Tempests and Slaughter is called the Numair Chronicles)
Kim wrote: "Hey Kelly, a Date a Book member here *waves*Arram is the main guy in The Immortals series - but he has a different name in that series: Numair Salmalin
(which is also why Tempests and Slaughter..."
Hey Kim! Thanks so much for confirming, I thought it might have been but wanted to check to be sure. Booktopia have the The Immortals Quartet box set out for $50.00 at the moment along with Song of the Lioness Quartet. I'm completely smitten with her writing and snapping them up.
Oo - I treated myself to those very same editions earlier this year! I couldn't resist the pretty covers. (Plus, neither of my Immortals or Lioness editions matched before, so I thought it was time to get a matching set)I really hope you enjoy them - let us all know what you think of Numair/Arram the later years!
Kelly wrote: "Kelly (Diva Booknerd) wrote: "Alexandra wrote: "Honestly, really good point. I actually do think that because I know that Varice isn't a long term figure in Arram's life, I was less inclined to dev..."I'm honestly sooooo excited to find out what happens next for all of them! I feel like we were left at a really great point in this book, and there's SO MUCH MORE TO LEARN <3. I series can't wait for the next one and can only hope it comes out soon!
Kelly (Diva Booknerd) wrote: "Kim wrote: "Hey Kelly, a Date a Book member here *waves*Arram is the main guy in The Immortals series - but he has a different name in that series: Numair Salmalin
(which is also why Tempests a..."
Grab all of them!!
(And I'm sorry for the spoiler -- I was definitely coming from a place of knowing this was a prequel and forgot that not everyone might have read the original series)
Also, highly recommend grabbing the Protector of the Small quartet too. It's personally my favourite, but there's usually a lot of debate about which quartet is the strongest :)
Mod
....
(And I'm sorry for the spoiler -- I was definitely coming from a place of knowing this was a prequel and forgot that not everyone might have read the original series) "
You're not alone - we're also dying for book 2!
Rumour has it, that The Numair Chronicles will go right up until the first sighting of Arram in The Immortals series. So they will all blend together eventually.
Are you ready for week 2?
This week we're discussing Chapter 9 – Chapter 16 (inclusive) – or pg. 152-296 in the Australian paperback edition.
Below are a couple of questions to get us started – but feel free to jump in where you like.
Remember this is an open discussion, but try not to post out of the parts being discussed – if you need to reference something ahead, please use spoiler tabs! Have fun!
p.s. don’t forget to jump on Twitter during the week as we have some Tamora Pierce and Tortall polls running!
4. Magic is obviously a huge part of this book - did you have a favourite magical scene so far? If you were at the University of Carthak what lesson would you want to take and why?
5. What are your thoughts on the representation of women in the novel?
Happy Posting!