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Exit West - March 2018
Connie wrote: " So places like Dubai, which is loaded with money, had lots of surveillance cameras and drones. Other places like Amsterdam and Brazil seemed to be very open with immigration, and the two older men could easily visit each other..."
The US had drones too. But we don't really have drones flying over immigrants here, so I was kind of bothered by that. But maybe it was more of a symbolic thing representing the receptiveness of the country? I didn't think of that until I read your post. I think of the doors as more symbolic than magical too.
Connie wrote: "People tend to be more accepting of immigrants from cultures that are similar to them. ..."I think this has something to do with it. Many people seem to have a fear and/or dislike of people who are much different than them. It is more obvious with race/religion/culture but I think poor are possibly more accepting of poor too.
As for the dystopia vs hope and optimism question....I don't think the book really fit into either. It was more of a shit happens and people learn how to deal with it theme to me.
What did everyone make of the refugees taking over rich people's houses and getting away with it? Obviously that doesn't literally happen. Symbolic of what the rich people are losing? But what ARE they losing?
Julie wrote: "I think of the doors as more symbolic than magical too...."I agree, Julie. When I was reading and making a few notes, I wrote that the doors where more of a metaphor or as you say symbolic.
Here are some interesting links answering the question I posed in google. What do doors symbolize ?
https://breathofgreenair.com/2015/07/...
https://matadornetwork.com/bnt/photo-...
I felt that is why the author didn't get into the hows and whys of how the doors worked. Most stories on the topic of refugees explore the harrowing experience getting to the host country. (Host isn't the word I am looking for. But you know what I mean. )
It wasn't important to the story Hamid wanted to explore. The doors allowed the author to skip that part and focus on the refugee experience once they were in the host country. Which I think is what the author wanted to explore.
That's my take anyway.
Julie wrote: "I'm not sure. I took that sentence to mean that when they met it was while their area was still peaceful but others weren't and refugees where around....not that they WERE refugees. ..."I apologize, Julie, i wasn't precise. That's what i meant, that maybe what we took to be war/uprising/revolution in their country was really the battle against these newcomers instead. I didn't mean that either Nadia or Saeed also came through the door with their family.
Good point about the way the author used the doors, Alias. It allowed him to skip most of the sci-fi/magical questions in order to get on with the story. In my mind it's somewhat like the way author Cormac McCarthy never told readers of his book, The Road, how the world got to this point. For both authors explanations would have changed the story they wanted to tell.
I wonder if Nadia didn't continue to wear the abaya as a sort of security blanket. Her reasons sounds solid but once they were out of their country and in others, why? Maybe she felt in those places it set her apart as different, just as riding the bike while in her abaya did in her land? I'm not sure about this one, even though the author gave us her reason.
Julie wrote: "What did everyone make of the refugees taking over rich people's houses and getting away with it? Obviously that doesn't literally happen. Symbolic of what the rich people are losing? But what ARE ..."
In the UK there used to be a law (not sure if it is still in place, though, but in the late '90s it was) that if squatters lived in your home for a certain length of time they could lay claim to it. I'm not sure if that meant they legally owned it (doubt it) or that they could not really be evicted or, most likely, not arrested after a certain time. I just remember a case going through the courts when we visited in the 1990s.
In the US i recall someone using Air BnB couldn't get a "renter" to leave and that person was called a squatter. Again, i don't know about the legalities. It seems that vacation homes would be ripe for this. However, the homes in the book seem to have been ones that the owners frequented but weren't there at the time. Maybe extended vacation? Or a holiday home?
It's possible the author wants us to think about what the wealthy would lose. To many of us our home is our security, where we feel safe. If it can be taken over by strangers, then what is safe? Or, perhaps, he wants us to question the wealth itself, as in, couldn't they spare it? I mean, we are not even given the sense that anyone was protesting that their homes had been "taken", did we? (Or have i forgotten?)
And then what about the doors? Can those who pass through them be blamed because they wound up in an empty home, ripe for the taking? What if the Australian woman had awakened while that man climbed out of her closet? Would he be to blame?
It seems like the author is emphasizing what the immigrants had lost, rather than what the people in the countries they were entering were losing. Nadia had lost her home, and Saeed had lost both parents because of the violence in their homeland. Both had lost their jobs and most of their possessions. They went from middle class jobs in their homeland to manual labor in the UK. Since there was no electricity, phone, or internet in their homeland, they had lost contact with family in their homeland. I was also surprised that the immigrants were allowed to stay in the second homes of the wealthy in London. I wondered if one of the reasons that Nadia and Saeed moved to California was because they anticipated violence if they continued staying in the home. There were protests by nativists outside the mansions which would probably get stronger as more immigrants arrived.
The UK did seem to have a plan in place for building apartments and roads outside the city. It provided employment (manual labor) for the immigrants during the building phase, and the opportunity for future housing.
madrano wrote: "It's possible the author wants us to think about what the wealthy would lose. To many of us our home is our security, where we feel safe. If it can be taken over by strangers, then what is safe? Or, perhaps, he wants us to question the wealth itself, as in, couldn't they spare it? I mean, we are not even given the sense that anyone was protesting that their homes had been "taken", did we? (Or have i forgotten?) ...."Well they (police) made attempts to get them out but gave up. And then some natives started engaging in violence towards the squatters.
I think the author was trying to make a point with the refugees taking over their homes that many people feel like they take over their "home" in a larger sense....as in their home country. I like that. I'm going with that explanation. :-)
I like your explanation about the "homes" and home country, Julie.
Julie wrote: "What did everyone make of the refugees taking over rich people's houses and getting away with it? Obviously that doesn't literally happen. Symbolic of what the rich people are losing? But what ARE ..."Good question. I didn't think it was fair to the owners of the homes. I don't think demonizing the wealthy is the solution. That said, income inequality is a huge problem that is just getting worse. I don't know what the answer is.
Just to clarify terms. An Immigrant is an individual who leaves one’s country to settle in another. There is a legal process that is followed to immigrate.
"Federal immigration law determines whether a person is an alien, and associated legal rights, duties, and obligations of aliens in the United states. It also provides means by which certain aliens can become naturalized citizens with full rights of citizenship. Immigration law determines who may enter, how long they may stay and when they must leave."
https://definitions.uslegal.com/i/imm...
Illegal immigration is an individual who leaves one's country to settle in another without following the legal process.
"An illegal immigrant is a person who has entered the country without official authorization. Federal immigration law provides means by which certain aliens can become naturalized citizens with full rights of citizenship. Immigration law determines who may enter, how long they may stay and when they must leave."
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...
Refugees are defined as persons, who move out of one’s country due to restriction or danger to their lives.
"A refugee is a person who is unable or unwilling to return to their country of nationality because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, politcal opinions, or membership in a particular group."
https://definitions.uslegal.com/r/ref...
Connie wrote:It seems like the author is emphasizing what the immigrants had lost, rather than what the people in the countries they were entering were losing."
Good point. However, we have to remember these were refugees. At least it seemed most were in the book.
There is a big difference in how countries have treated these different groups: refugees, legal immigration & illegal immigration.
They are very different responses by the government towards each group.
Julie wrote: I think the author was trying to make a point with the refugees taking over their homes that many people feel like they take over their "home" in a larger sense....as in their home country. I like that. I'm going with that explanation. :-) Yes. I like the symbolism of that. Good point !
That's a good clarification, Alias.It brings to mind many of the people who have fled from Central America, South America, and Mexico to the USA. They may feel that they are escaping from the violent drug lords and political factions, and that their lives are in danger. But immigration officials might think they are coming for economic opportunities. I don't want to get into politics, but I imagine it's not easy to sort things out.
Connie, we have another category, if we use history.Citizens being put into camps by their own country. Two examples that come to my mind are:
Citizens of Germany being put into camps.
The internment of Japanese Americans in the United States during World War II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internm...
Julie wrote: "I think the author was trying to make a point with the refugees taking over their homes that many people feel like they take over their "home" in a larger sense....as in their home country. I like that. I'm going with that explanation. :-) ..."Me, too. That's a good one. Connie, i also like what you wrote about the losses of both Nadia and Saeed. On a broader scale, i suppose, we could look at the losses of people whose countries are entered via the doors. In a way this gets back to Alias's earlier mention of resources--water, electricity, employment.
It was interesting to note that in Marin food carts/trucks were setting up along the path. This seemed to be an example of how an economy would correct itself even with the influx of refugees. Frankly, and we know my infatuation with science fiction, i could enjoy a book strictly about what happens when people visit various places through the doors. The author only served to whet my appetite for that. :-)
Toward the end the woman in Palo Alto muses that strange people were around her but they seemed more at home than she was, even if they spoke no English, Then this, “everyone migrates, even if we stay in the same houses our whole lives, because we can’t help it.
We are all migrants through time.”
This part sang to me. Perhaps this is because i am still getting rid of items i've collected over the years, i see that sense of migration within one's own life. Did that resonate with anyone else? We've moved around a dozen or so times, so our migration, all within one country, has widened our vista in many ways.
I haven't really gotten into the book so I haven't posted. However just need to say at the moment that when I see mention of run on sentences my brain immediately says -- wow, you want them -- see William Faulkner. Not easy but still.I enjoyed the little that I read.
So now -- in my busy life -- I clearly need to get off this computer and read.
Deb, earlier you said that you related to Nadia more than Saeed, and all your moving and traveling show that you have the same sense of adventure as she does. I've lived in the same house for over 40 years so I don't have the sense of migration that you do.I like the quote: "We are all migrants through time". Just the changes that come with aging, family responsibilities, jobs, and new interests make us slightly different people year after year as we go through time.
madrano wrote:Toward the end the woman in Palo Alto muses that strange people were around her but they seemed more at home than she was, even if they spoke no English, Then this, “everyone migrates, even if we stay in the same houses our whole lives, because we can’t help it.We are all migrants through time.”
This part sang to me. Perhaps this is because i am still getting rid of items i've collected over the years, i see that sense of migration within one's own life. Did that resonate with anyone else? ..."
It resonated with me in a different way. I've lived in the same area all my life. It was always 90% Italian. It's now pretty much switched to an Asian neighborhood. So even though I've stayed in the same area the neighborhood is completely different. Not only obviously the people but the stores.
Bobbie wrote: "I haven't really gotten into the book so I haven't posted. However just need to say at the moment that when I see mention of run on sentences my brain immediately says -- wow, you want them -- see William Faulkner. Not easy but still...."Don't throw rotten tomatoes at me ! I am not a Faulkner fan. :-O Deb and I Buddy Read a bunch of his books on the old AOL Book Nook Cafe board.
Though I did enjoy a movie based on one of his books. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089500/The Long Hot summer. Based on
The Hamlet--William Faulkner
Paul Newman also made a version of it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051878/
wiki
The Long, Hot Summer is a 1958 film directed by Martin Ritt. The screenplay was written by Irving Ravetch and Harriet Frank, Jr., based in part on three works by William Faulkner: the 1931 novella "Spotted Horses", the 1939 short story "Barn Burning", and the 1940 novel The Hamlet. The title is taken from The Hamlet, as Book Three is called "The Long Summer". Some characters, as well as tone, were inspired by Tennessee Williams' 1955 play, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof,[2] a film adaptation of which – also starring Paul Newman – was released five months after the release of The Long, Hot Summer.
Alias Reader wrote: "It resonated with me in a different way. I've lived in the same area all my life. It was always 90% Italian. It's now pretty much switched to an Asian neighborhood. So even though I've stayed in the same area the neighborhood is completely different...."That's how I interpreted it. Even if you don't actually go anywhere, where you are still changes.
I agree, Connie. I've been rereading letters i've saved from people i've met through our moves. Most of them have remained in the town & home where we met them. In each case life itself has "migrated" them to where some views and long-held beliefs have changed. And, actually, sometimes even their homes have migrated, in the sense that the additions/repairs they've instigated have changed the building itself and the way the family has changed as an adult.Alias, yours is a really neat adventure. Were you aware of the change as it occurred or was it a "suddenly" noticed one? I've lived and visited my hometown, a suburb of Dallas, for over 50 years. It was only after living here the last few years that i learned one part of town, which we passed regularly when i lived here in the late 60s & 70s, is almost all Asian. Now there is an entire shopping center with Asian restaurants, groceries and medicines. To me it was sudden, of course, but my sister who has lived here all along didn't realize it until we took her to one of the restaurants a couple of years ago.
Alias Reader wrote: "Bobbie wrote: "I haven't really gotten into the book so I haven't posted. However just need to say at the moment that when I see mention of run on sentences my brain immediately says -- wow, you wa..."Actually what I remember about Faulkner was my struggle with what I was assigned in college. This book is nowhere near that. I have finally had the time and right mood to sit down this morning and read a decent chunk of it. I am intrigued by it.
Julie wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "It resonated with me in a different way. I've lived in the same area all my life. It was always 90% Italian. It's now pretty much switched to an Asian neighborhood. So even tho..."This has been happening in many of our cities and there are always those who have difficulty with change.
I copied this from a PBS interview with the author since I was curious about the dark doors, and he was inspired by the dark rectangle of a phone or computer screen that transports us to somewhere on the other side of the world:Can you describe the moment you knew you wanted to write this particular book? Or when you knew it was over?
I think it was a moment like this, when I was doing an interview with someone far away, but in that case we were speaking over some Internet video call service, and I was looking at my phone or my computer and seeing this person half-way around the world as though they were my neighbor, speaking through a window, an actual physical window, and I started to think of the black rectangle I always carry with me, the screen of my mobile phone, a kind of magical portal that my consciousness is drawn to, and passes through, incessantly, and I wondered what would happen if we could physically pass through black rectangles like that, not just with our consciousness but with our body, and then the idea took hold of me and wouldn’t let go until the novel was done.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/to-...
madrano wrote:Alias, yours is a really neat adventure. Were you aware of the change as it occurred or was it a "suddenly" noticed one? I'."It changed over I'd say a 5 year period. I noticed as many friends moved.
Connie wrote: I started to think of the black rectangle I always carry with me, the screen of my mobile phone, a kind of magical portal that my consciousness is drawn to, and passes through, incessantly,."Interesting take on cell phones and computers. Thanks for sharing, Connie.
Just think of our little group here at BNC. We are from the U.S. and around the globe. Kind of neat and amazing when you think about it.
Thank you, Connie, for sharing that interview bit. It makes such sense as an inspiration but it probably takes an author to turn it into something like this book. Alias, watching your friends move makes sense. This may be why my family didn't notice, their neighborhood has been fairly stable since the late '70s. The city grew in another direction (although, still not where the Asian community has blossomed).
Connie wrote: "I copied this from a PBS interview with the author since I was curious about the dark doors, and he was inspired by the dark rectangle of a phone or computer screen that transports us to somewhere ..."Interesting. Thanks!
I've read a couple of books since finishing this one (well, i finished two, let me amend) but this is still on my mind. I was thinking about the doors this morning and made note that those who found the doors seemed to all be running from something initially. I don't think the two older men were, which might explain the back & forth of their entrances but it seemed others were. Is this speaking to the adventurous? I guess i'm coupling this with Hilary Clinton's recent speech about which states voted for her, tying those comments to The Republican Brain: The Science of Why They Deny Science--and Reality by Chris C. Mooney, which i read almost right after the 2016 election. I am not putting anyone down (and i don't know that HC was, either) but i find it something i want to consider.
In the past we've heard folks say if Planet Earth got too bad, we could colonize other planets. But i wonder how many would go, who would be willing and could we trust those who make the move?
I guess this is a long way of saying i'm glad we read the book together. I'm not sure how much of this i would have fleshed out had we not shared insights, good and bad. Good call, Alias, on this one.
Question 5about smart phones: “In their phones were antennas, and these antennas sniffed out an invisible world, as if by magic, a world that was all around them, and also nowhere, transporting them to places distant and near, and to places that had never been and would never be.”
I thought the analogy of the doors to smart phones was interesting. Much like being online transports us.
11. Do you think EXIT WEST is a hopeful book? Why or why not?I am on the fence with this question.
On one hand, the main characters find a sort of happiness.
However, there is still war and the haves and have nots.
Am I recalling correctly that the only characters with names are Nadia and Saeed? Why do you think this was? Are they supposed to represent the "everyman" ?
Would you have felt more of a connection if the other characters had names?
madrano wrote: "I guess this is a long way of saying i'm glad we read the book together. I'm not sure how much of this i would have fleshed out had we not shared insights, good and bad. Good call, Alias, on this one.
I'm happy you enjoyed it, deb.
I think selecting one of the picks from either NPR or The NY Times/PBS might work for us. We can see which we prefer and go with that.
Next up for April is
Educated---Tara Westover
I remember reading that analogy of phones to the doors but it didn't stick with me. It is an interesting way to view them. And too true. Sometimes i wonder how i researched anything prior to the 'Net. And the bottom line is that it has increased the world for me.Until you asked it didn't register with me that we only know those two names of characters. Mother, father, musician, etc. Hmm. I'm not sure as to whether it helps give us a connection because i've enjoyed books where readers never learn the character's names. But the "everyman" idea works. They are both us, in a way.
As to whether this is a hopeful book, i'm a bit like you, unsure. Overall, i think so, partly because we get a glimpse into their futures, when they meet (for coffee?) in their hometown, which is no longer a war zone. We learn there appear to be no ill effects from the door passages, that war there (at least) has ended, and earlier we saw in the England section that they were coming to a rather peaceful coexistence. So, writing it out i believe that it was hopeful but still a fantasy. :-)
madrano wrote:I remember reading that analogy of phones to the doors but it didn't stick with me. It is an interesting way to view them. And too true. Sometimes i wonder how i researched anything prior to the 'Net. And the bottom line is that it has increased the world for me.."The internet has totally changed me.
It really began when Oprah started her online book club years ago. Before that, I basically read legal thrillers and the NY Times bestseller list. Her book club and her online message board on AOL introduced me to a world wide group of interesting people and broadened my reading.
As to how I would find info before. Probably not at all. Unless it was very important fact that I needed to know, I can't see myself running to the library. Add to that, without the internet, I would be using my local library a lot less. Now I can hop online and request 95% of all the books I want. It really has been a door to the world for me.
madrano wrote: "Until you asked it didn't register with me that we only know those two names of characters. Mother, father, musician, etc. Hmm. I'm not sure as to whether it helps give us a connection because i've enjoyed books where readers never learn the character's names.."I think when you can view people as labels, it is also easier to mistreat them. They become "the other". In the novel you have the haves and the have not refugees. If you don't know their names it's not personal. So it becomes more acceptable to ones conscience to ignore their plight.
Good point about labels vs. names. I've heard a number of true stories in which a person with prejudice overturned their beliefs after getting to know similar people they despised. It warms one's heart but one can't help wonder how those prejudices were instilled in the first place.I remember going to the library, list in hand, to find answers to questions which built up while reading. So, i guess i did that or looked in the encyclopedia when i lived with my folks. Just prior to getting our first Apple, i would spend hours at the library with their copies of Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature researching topics of interest to me. It took time and luck because if that library didn't have the periodical, i was outta luck.
madrano wrote: "I remember going to the library, list in hand, to find answers to questions which built up while reading..."You were more studious than I. :)
Though I will say when one makes such an effort, you are more likely to retain the information.
That is why I still look up words in the dictionary when reading a paper book. When I use the Kindle and click on the word for a definition it really doesn't stick in my brain.
I've read studies that people retain more info when they read a paper book than on a eReader.
It's the same with making notes on some nonfiction books I read. The act of creating the notes helps me to remember the information and to also organize it my mind. I seldom read the notes again, but I still find the effort worthwhile.
This is a good point about recalling facts and info. I still retain meanings of words i looked up with paper books but have forgotten most i saw in e-form. How to correct that? I'm usually right in the middle of reading, so won't make the time to write it down. Maybe i should. I agree about notes from nonfiction up to a point. I seem not to remember the ones i have typed out, so maybe my mind still needs the handwriting to instill the material onto my brain cells. I am one to reread my notes, btw. For instance, when i read a Pres. bio, i'll look through those of the preceding Pres. bio to remember where we were. Although i didn't do that between Lincoln & the Johnson i'm now reading because i felt i knew those bits.
I have found over the years that writing things down helps me to remember even if I never look at the notes again. I used to go to tons of meetings for work and I would take notes. The act of writing truly helped me to concentrate. I don't think typing on a pad would be as good.
I admit that usually when i attend meetings and take notes it's the transferring them to a more readable form that tends to "set" the ideas in my head. Trying to read notes i wrote during a meeting is nigh impossible, so scribbled is it. Indeed, if i wait even a week, i lose much of what i wrote.
Finally got the book and will start reading tomorrow...:)
We look forward to your thoughts on it, Francesca !
I'm about half way through the book.The fairy tale omniscient narrator type of writing is definitely not my favorite style and I agree with you, Alias, that creates a distance between the reader and the characters that never let you in the story completely. Also I find the writing a bit too overly descriptive in places when in other instances is quiet confusing and unclear.
On the other hand, I like the way is addressed the passage from a normal city life to the reality of a city under war and the impact this causes on people life and relationship. Also I've been or lived in nearly all the places Nadia and Saeed arrive through 'the doors' and imagining them from a refugee point of view is quite interesting and a point for reflection.
Interesting note about imagining the places from a refugee point of view. I did that with the first one, i think. The contrast to where they had been struck me.
Francesca M wrote: The fairy tale omniscient narrator type of writing is definitely not my favorite style and I agree with you, Alias, that creates a distance between the reader and the characters that never let you in the story completely. Also I find the writing a bit too overly descriptive in places when in other instances is quiet confusing and unclear...."It wasn't my favorite read, but I am glad I stepped outside of my comfort zone and read it.
I look forward to your thoughts on the main characters after you finish.
From the NY Times regarding the their book club selection of Exit West.As we wrap up March's book pick, "Exit West," you might want to listen to Times Book Review editor, Pamela Paul's podcast from last year featuring Mohsin Hahmid among others.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/bo...
I thought it interesting how he notes that Saeed likes his past and traditions and doesn't want to run from it. While Nadia is seeking new ways and wants to break with tradition. I guess because of that they were destined to separate. So maybe opposites don't attract or maybe they attract but can't last in the long run ? I knew this while reading it, but I like when an author confirms my thoughts. :)
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Books mentioned in this topic
Educated (other topics)Readers' Guide To Periodical Literature (other topics)
Educated (other topics)
The Republican Brain: The Science of Why They Deny Science—and Reality (other topics)
The Hamlet (other topics)
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Tara Westover (other topics)Tara Westover (other topics)
Chris C. Mooney (other topics)
William Faulkner (other topics)
Cormac McCarthy (other topics)
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I have been wondering why she insisted on wearing it too. She was hiding behind it for some reason. I am not sure your lesbian idea quite works because she did want Saeed. Maybe it just made her feel in control because no one messed with her? That's the best I can come up with. I am not sure why she continued to wear it forever though. Was she just so used to it that it was a part of her?