The Thirteenth Tale, by Diane Setterfield - Start Date August 2, 2014 (August Anything Goes BOM)

[Christine]

Question and Comments for August 2nd
The Letter - Meeting Miss Winter

1) What do think of the author's writing style? Does it remind you of any other author's? She certainly uses the word corpse a lot. Do you get a sense that this is going to be a dark tale? (Ironically, I started reading this one on a dark and stormy night.)

I like her writing style.

2) "Reading can be dangerous." Have you ever had a dangerous encounter of a bookish kind? I loved that story. I confess to walking into things and people. lol

I know that from my own experience, I walk around with my kindle/book and almost walked into things or people a lot. Lanterns more than people though. Stepping on dogs is a bad idea.

3) If someone sent you a letter like Vida Winter's, would you be intrigued enough to go meet with her? (That is, of course, if you were a person who writes biographies?) What's your initial impression of Vida? Do you think she'll tell Margaret her true story?

I would love to do that. Not so much the writing part but being told the tale directly.

4) What would you do if you discovered you had a twin who died? If you were a parent, would you tell your child about her lost sibling? I wonder how long the twin lived?

It most be so awful to learn that you had a twin or sibling who died at birth and your parents never told you. Of course I would tell my son/daughter. That grief must be shared. And would you not think it strange when you come up to your parents and they were talking about something and then when you enter its all "hush hush". The atmosphere at home would be poisoned by that.

5) What did you think of Margaret's hobby of bringing the voices of those from long ago to life again in her biographies? What did you think of the statement, “People disappear when they die. Their voice, their laughter, the warmth of their breath. Their flesh. Eventually their bones. All living memory of them ceases. This is both dreadful and natural. Yet for some there is an exception to this annihilation. For in the books they write they continue to exist. We can rediscover them. Their humor, their tone of voice, their moods. Through the written word they can anger you or make you happy. They can comfort you. They can perplex you. They can alter you. All this, even though they are dead. Like flies in amber, like corpses frozen in the ice, that which according to the laws of nature should pass away is, by the miracle of ink on paper, preserved. It is a kind of magic.” Would you enjoy reading someone's diary from the past?

Yes definitely. My sister writes in her diary since she was sixteen, she has a ton of discipline and I admire her, she is now in her fifties and is still writing everyday.

I've started a lot of diaries but never got the hang of it. I don't have the discipline to write everday, even if it's only a single sentence.

I like to read the diaries, letters or biographies of other people a lot.

6) What do you make of the 13 Tales that contain only 12?

[Sandra]

Questions and Comments for August 4th
Dicken's Study - The Box of Lives

13. Why do you think Miss Winter is so afraid that Margaret will leave and not come back? Why is it so important she get her 'real' story out now when she has told over a dozen versions already?

It reminds me of people who want to get something of their chest or want to make some kind of confession on their deathbed. For whatever reason it seems to be important for her to at least once in her life tell her true story, and being old and ill, she must realize that she is running out of time to do so. Maybe she also fears to be running out of courage to tell the truth if she doesn't get over with it soon.

14. Why do you think that Vida Winter would invent all of these different stories about her own life and past? Do you think she invented the man in the brown suit like Margaret believes she did?

I think she invented him, or otherwise Margaret would have found something about the interview in the newspaper. I don't know why she invented all these stories about her past, though. Probably she is either ashamed of what happened in her past, feels guilty about it, or something .. But I'm not sure what it is yet.

15. The scene where she investigates the old burnt-out house was creepy. What did you think of it? Would you have investigated the house?

Oh no, I wouldn't have, that's for sure! Maybe I'd have taken pictures from the outside, but that's it. The way she described the house, to me it gave off a creepy haunted-house-vibe. But potential spookiness aside, it's a ruin and I wouldn't want to risk getting hurt by accident because I break through the floor or something falls on my head!

16. Is it just me, or do you get the feeling that there is more to Aurelius Love's story than he is letting on?

There has to be more to him. I don't think he'd be in the book without a good reason.

17. What's with Margaret seeing the 'ghost' in Angelfield and her thinking that 'she' came for Margaret at night? Do you think Margaret had a twin too, or is she getting too caught up in Miss Winter's story?

Don't we already know about the dead twin, because of the birth certificates Margaret found when she was 10 years old and alone at home? But I think the reason why she feels haunted by her twin now has to do with Miss WInter's story. Maybe all this talking about twins triggers something in Margaret: a stronger longing for her own twin.

[Sandra]

Lisarenee wrote: "Amanda took the last set of questions, but I thought I'd make a few comments. I thought it interesting that all of a sudden, Vida starting using 'me' and 'I' and her storytelling went from third to first person. Is this the section where she found herself? I'm curious why the change?"

I think it might be because of Hester's influence on the household. Now that the governess is there, the twins are forced to live a normal life in a house that's actually habitable: regular meals, no going out whenever it pleases them, bathing, a clean house and so on. And before .. well, I'm not sure how to put it. They were more existing and doing whatever pleased them, still kind of neglected, despite the Missus' best intentions.
Maybe now that Miss Winter's story comes to a part where they have a more regular life, it's easier for her to relate to her younger self. Probably now that she is an old women and a famous best-seller author, it's hard even for herself to see her as this wild, untamed, slightly crazy little girl.

[Kelly]

Questions and Comments for August 4th
Dicken's Study - The Box of Lives

13. Why do you think Miss Winter is so afraid that Margaret will leave and not come back? Why is it so important she get her 'real' story out now when she has told over a dozen versions already?
Maybe it's because she ran out of stories so she's only left with herself so she needs to tell that story to get it out.

14. Why do you think that Vida Winter would invent all of these different stories about her own life and past? Do you think she invented the man in the brown suit like Margaret believes she did?
I think she couldn't tell the real story because she had all the other stories in her head. I also don't think she really associates the person she was before the fire with the one after which would probably make it feel like it wasn't her story. I wonder if instead of telling her story she's telling Adeline's.

15. The scene where she investigates the old burnt-out house was creepy. What did you think of it? Would you have investigated the house?
I probably would have gone but would have freaked out with someone else being there too. I'm surprised she didn't pepper Mr. Love with more questions.

16. Is it just me, or do you get the feeling that there is more to Aurelius Love's story than he is letting on?
It does seem like that. I can't imagine going and camping out in a burned house for fun. I'm betting she'll be back for more information.

17. What's with Margaret seeing the 'ghost' in Angelfield and her thinking that 'she' came for Margaret at night? Do you think Margaret had a twin too, or is she getting too caught up in Miss Winter's story?
I think she's caught up in the story and the fact that she just recently found out about her twin is influencing her opinion of all this.

[Lisarenee]

Sandra wrote: "Unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to read today and am still stuck at the end of the "Dicken's study" chapter - it's harder to keep up with the pace of a group read than I thought.
But I was th..."

There was something that made me believe it, but I can't remember what any more.

[Lisarenee]

Questions and Comments for August 5th
The Eye In The View - Angelfield Again

18) I don't know if I'd have noticed it without Lisa saying we should keep track of it, but we again switch from first to third person and back. Very odd.

19) The second Adeline is very curious. Do you think it was a village child? I can't imagine Emmeline playing with them. Could Isabelle have had another child? Perhaps via her brother? I know, I know it's a terrible thought, but they had such an odd relationship that, yeah, I went there. It would explain the similar appearance.

20) There is mention of Hester noticing a young boy in the garden. Could it have been a young Aurelius Love? Could that be why John-the-dig didn't like outsiders on the premise? Could he have been hiding him? Since I already went there, could he be Isabelle and Charlie's son or could he be John-the-dig's? Do we know either the Missus' surname or John's?

21) I don't know about anyone else, but I did not see the Hester and doctor incident coming. Anyone not surprised? I wonder if he'd done something like that before? His wife definitely wasn't surprised.

22) I love all the tracking Margaret has to do to verify Vida's story. It looks like the one document verifies that Vida is indeed Adeline. I think all the research is necessary considering her track record of lying. What's your opinion?

23) What did you think of the Doctor's and Hester's twin experiment? Without Adeline's commentary, would you have thought it a good idea?

24) Charlie's death and depression were terrible. I'm still kind of baffled by Isabelle's rapid decline. How did she go from somewhat normal to crazy enough to require hospitalization? What happened? Was it her father's death? I wonder if we'll ever know?

25) What did you think of Hestor's girl in the veil theory? I still can't unify the Adeline Hestor speaks of with the one we've met. Anyone else having trouble?

Weird Observation: So I've been toggling between the hardcover book and the audio. Listening to the audio, the chapter titled, "The Eye in the Yew" sounded much more interesting. It sounded like the I in the You. I had to look it up just to verify how it was spelled. It's probably nothing, but I thought it interesting.

[☼♎ Carmen the Bootyshaker Temptress ☼♎]

I'm in. If that's ok. I'm going away tomorrow but I'm currently 1/2 through the book and will probably post the later questions when the WiFi is working. If that's ok?

[☼♎ Carmen the Bootyshaker Temptress ☼♎]

Question and Comments for August 2nd
The Letter - Meeting Miss Winter

1) What do think of the author's writing style? Does it remind you of any other author's? She certainly uses the word corpse a lot. Do you get a sense that this is going to be a dark tale? (Ironically, I started reading this one on a dark and stormy night.) I am really like her writing style. It reminds me a classical book. She does use the word a lot but it seems like someone is dead or died and yes it does gives a sense of a dark tale and with the corpses it doesn't help.

2) "Reading can be dangerous." Have you ever had a dangerous encounter of a bookish kind? I loved that story. I confess to walking into things and people. lol
Not really. Unless a paper cut counts or when my sister-in-law ruined my book. :)

3) If someone sent you a letter like Vida Winter's, would you be intrigued enough to go meet with her? (That is, of course, if you were a person who writes biographies?) What's your initial impression of Vida? Do you think she'll tell Margaret her true story?
I think I would because I would be curious as to what she wanted but also I would want to know why she would tell the boy what he wanted. She seems to be a bitter person or just a sad person. I think that she will tell Margaret the true story because I think she wants to let someone know what really happened to the twins.

4) What would you do if you discovered you had a twin who died? If you were a parent, would you tell your child about her lost sibling? I wonder how long the twin lived?
If I found out that I had a twin that died I would want to know because I believe that twins have a connection and the feeling would always be there and would probably bother me if I found out like Margaret. If I were a parent of twins and that happened I would probably tell the child when they were old enough to understand so that they wouldn't find out like Margaret. I wondered the same thing.

5) What did you think of Margaret's hobby of bringing the voices of those from long ago to life again in her biographies? What did you think of the statement, “People disappear when they die. Their voice, their laughter, the warmth of their breath. Their flesh. Eventually their bones. All living memory of them ceases. This is both dreadful and natural. Yet for some there is an exception to this annihilation. For in the books they write they continue to exist. We can rediscover them. Their humor, their tone of voice, their moods. Through the written word they can anger you or make you happy. They can comfort you. They can perplex you. They can alter you. All this, even though they are dead. Like flies in amber, like corpses frozen in the ice, that which according to the laws of nature should pass away is, by the miracle of ink on paper, preserved. It is a kind of magic.” Would you enjoy reading someone's diary from the past?
Definitely! It's always nice to see the difference from the past to present or how other people were then compare to now.

6) What do you make of the 13 Tales that contain only 12?
I'm not sure yet but I think its alittle strange. Unless someone hid the 13th on purpose.

Questions and Comments for August 3rd
And So We Began - Dr. and Mrs. Maudsley

7) What did you think of the statement, "Our lives are so important to us that we tend to think the story of them begins with our birth. First there was nothing, then I was born...Yet that is not so. Human lives are not pieces of string that can be separated out from a knot of others and laid out straight. Families are webs. Impossible to touch one part of it without setting the rest vibrating. Impossible to understand one part without having a sense of the whole." I rather liked that. Have you ever thought about families in such a way? Do you agree or disagree with her statement?
I loved the way that was stated. It seems so true but I never really thought about it in that way.

8) What did you make of Charlie and Isabelle? Disturbing or what? It sounds like Isabelle killed her husband.
They were really weird. It seems Charlie was a little to attached to his sister and she was just to flaky. Then when she comes back she acts like nothing serious happened in her life.

9) I kept wondering if Charlie and Isabelle would hurt the twins. It sounded like Missus and John-the-Dig raised the kids more so than anyone else. Do you think the girls destroyed the garden? What did you make of their twin speak?
That was my first thought but they didn't seem to care if they were there or not and I think that is why Missus and John-the- Dig ended up raising the kids. I think the girls did destroy the garden and their weird talking must have made them look and sound crazy but I guess they wanted to be able to talk to each other without anyone knowing what they were saying and they made up their own language but they were just as weird and Carlie and Isabelle. I guess in this case the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

10) Knowing Isabelle was Miss Winter's mother and Charlie her uncle, would you be a little nervous being with her? Yes, I know we're not our parents, but...
Of course. It's not like the family history that she is telling sounds sane. LOL.

11) After the preambulator story are you as curious as I am to find out how Adeline/Miss Winters went from such a wild unspeaking child to the author and woman she's become? I find it interesting she's addressing herself in the third person. Do you think this is because of her storyteller nature?
Definitely! I want to know what changed and how she became this person/author. Yes, I agree its her storytelling nature that is making her speak of herself as a third person.

12) What do you think happened to Charlie without Isabella? Do you think things will change for the girls? I have a bad feeling.
I think became like the Dad and does something really bad. I'm just not sure yet.

[Sarah]

Questions and Comments for August 3rd
And So We Began - Dr. and Mrs. Maudsley

7) What did you think of the statement,"Our lives are so important to us that we tend to think the story of them begins with our birth. First there was nothing, then I was born...Yet that is not so. Human lives are not pieces of string that can be separated out from a knot of others and laid out straight. Families are webs. Impossible to touch one part of it without setting the rest vibrating. Impossible to understand one part without having a sense of the whole." I rather liked that. Have you ever thought about families in such a way? Do you agree or disagree with her statement?

I agree with this statement. We all are affected by our families and our parents and grand parents have stories and histories and events that permeate down through the generations and create the environments we are born into that shape us. It is like a web that is connected to all these parts and things that affect the web affect the members that make up the web. We don't live in a vacuum we are connected.

8) What did you make of Charlie and Isabelle? Disturbing or what? It sounds like Isabelle killed her husband.

I thought it could be plausible that her husband died of pneumonia. What is disturbing me is the nature of the relationship with Charlie and Isabelle, Margaret was questioning if Charlie could be the father. Maybe there was some incest going on. But I feel something happened to make Isabelle go crazy.

9) I kept wondering if Charlie and Isabelle would hurt the twins. It sounded like Missus and John-the-Dig raised the kids more so than anyone else. Do you think the girls destroyed the garden? What did you make of their twin speak?

Yes, I thought it seemed the girls destroyed the garden. The twins are completely neglected by their parents and I think the Missus is just too old.

10) Knowing Isabelle was Miss Winter's mother and Charlie her uncle, would you be a little nervous being with her? Yes, I know we're not our parents, but...

I don't think Miss Winter's is completely crazy like her mother. There is something in her past that is dark and Miss Winter's had already said that person died, figuratively, herself. I think that is why she uses the third person when talking about her past.

11) After the preambulator story are you as curious as I am to find out how Adeline/Miss Winters went from such a wild unspeaking child to the author and woman she's become? I find it interesting she's addressing herself in the third person. Do you think this is because of her storyteller nature?

I can't imagine the doctor, his wife, and the community allowing the twins to go on living the way they are know that the mom has been taken away and the twins have been so neglected. I thought maybe they would go live with someone else.

12) What do you think happened to Charlie without Isabella? Do you think things will change for the girls? I have a bad feeling.

I think the girls would go live with another family - the doctor maybe?

[Lisarenee]

"Sandra wrote: "Unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to read today and am still stuck at the end of the "Dicken's study" chapter - it's harder to keep up with the pace of a group read than I though..."

I remember, now, Vida said her real name was Adeline.

[Sandra]

Lisarenee wrote: "
I remember, now, Vida said her real name was Adeline."

Oh yes, you are right! I completely forgot about that! Although on the other hand, Vida is the most unreliable narrator I've ever come across, so I wouldn't be too surprised if that is a lie. But for now I see no reason why she would lie about being Adeline, so I believe her - for now - and just wait and see :)

[Lisarenee]

Sandra wrote: "Lisarenee wrote: "
I remember, now, Vida said her real name was Adeline."

Oh yes, you are right! I completely forgot about that! Although on the other hand, Vida is the most unreliable narrator I'..."

It was a valid question and one I posed to myself when I wrote the question. I remembered having found the answer, but couldn't recall, at first, what it was that persuaded me.

[Lisarenee]

You know, I was telling my daughter about the book and she said she thought it was strange that Vida changed her name. She said Adeline March would have been a good name for an author. It makes me wonder why she did it? Was it because it was the end of her story and after she wanted to create a new one? I can't wait to start today's reading and see if we get any more clues to what is happening. I'm of to read the next section.

[☼♎ Carmen the Bootyshaker Temptress ☼♎]

Lisarenee wrote: "You know, I was telling my daughter about the book and she said she thought it was strange that Vida changed her name. She said Adeline March would have been a good name for an author. It makes me ..."

I was wondering that too. It just seems like she's trying to create a different version of herself or something.

[☼♎ Carmen the Bootyshaker Temptress ☼♎]

Questions and comments for August 4th

13. Miss Winter must have thought that Margaret would find something that wasn't true and not return. She seems desperate to have her story told like she is wants to confess something and felt nervious that if Margaret left she wouldn't return.

14. Maybe that's the way she sees it or her illness is causing her mind to play tricks on her but I think that she can also be mixing things up as to not leave anything out of her story. I'm not sure yet about whether the man with the brown suit is invented or not but I'm curious if he's real or she's confussing him with someone else.

15. It was creepy but in a beautiful sad way. I would have investigated because my curiosty would have drove me nuts. LOL

16. I have to agree. I think Aurelius Love is not telling the whole story or he's just as weird and making it seem more happier than it really was. I'm also listening to the audio and reading the book and when this part came up it just made him sound alittle off. He just seemed jumpy or excited to see someone there. I found it strange and curious.

17. I think Margaret is starting to feel the effects of what went on in the house or the ghost is trying to let her know something important. I thought that we already knew that she was a twin from when she found the birth certificate or am I getting confused with the story? And if she did she must be feeling the lost of her twin and with all this talk about twins she is imagining that her twin is trying to communicate with her or she is getting caught up in everything that is going on.

[Lisarenee]

It makes what Margaret said about the name perhaps have more meaning than one would think. I can't recall without looking it up, but didn't she say Vida meant life and Winter meant void, empty, & death or some such thing? Life Death? There has to be something to it, but I'm at a loss.

[Kelly]

I think Vide was void/death.

[Sandra]

Questions and Comments for August 5th
The Eye In The View - Angelfield Again

18) I don't know if I'd have noticed it without Lisa saying we should keep track of it, but we again switch from first to third person and back. Very odd.

That's odd, indeed. I don't know what to make of it.
What especially catched my eye was this line: 'He's not there', we told her. 'He's gone.' Because .. WE told her? Meaning Adeline and John-the-Dig? Since when does Adeline bother to communicate with the adults in the house or even to use proper language? Or do I get it wrong and it is more like: John told the Missus, and Adeline told her sister in twin speak?
Did anyone else wonder about it?

19) The second Adeline is very curious. Do you think it was a village child? I can't imagine Emmeline playing with them. Could Isabelle have had another child? Perhaps via her brother? I know, I know it's a terrible thought, but they had such an odd relationship that, yeah, I went there. It would explain the similar appearance.

I'm absolutely sure that Charlie and Isabelle already have two incestious kids together: Adeline and Emmeline!
I can't really explain it, but I have this strong feeling that Charlie is the father and not the dead husband. But I can't imagine the second Adeline being another child of them. Where would it have been all the time? Surely, someone would have noticed before? But I also can't imagine Emeline playing with a village child. It is really strange.

20) There is mention of Hester noticing a young boy in the garden. Could it have been a young Aurelius Love? Could that be why John-the-dig didn't like outsiders on the premise? Could he have been hiding him? Since I already went there, could he be Isabelle and Charlie's son or could he be John-the-dig's? Do we know either the Missus' surname or John's?

Again, I don't believe in another child of Isabelle and Charlie. The Missus' name was Martha Dunne, John's surname was Digence. At least that's what Margaret found on the gravestones.
I was thinking, too, that the boy might be a young Aurelius. But I can't figure out yet what he would be doing there.

21) I don't know about anyone else, but I did not see the Hester and doctor incident coming. Anyone not surprised? I wonder if he'd done something like that before? His wife definitely wasn't surprised.

I didn't see it coming, but when it happened, I wasn't too surprised. It makes sense, somehow. They were spending a lots of time together and, I think, Hester wasn't like other women the doctor has known before. She challenged him, she was his equal in scientific research.. I think that must have fascinated him.

22) I love all the tracking Margaret has to do to verify Vida's story. It looks like the one document verifies that Vida is indeed Adeline. I think all the research is necessary considering her track record of lying. What's your opinion?


I agree that it is necessary. Vida is such an unreliable narrator, even when we see prove that she is telling the truth, I feel inclined to mistrust her. Margaret would be a fool to believe anything without checking!

23) What did you think of the Doctor's and Hester's twin experiment? Without Adeline's commentary, would you have thought it a good idea?

I know there have been countless twin studies that are not cruel and don't harm the research participents, but nevertheless: When I hear of twin experiments, all my inner alarm clocks start ringing, because the first thing that comes to my mind is Dr. Mengele and his twin experiments in Auschwitz during WW2.

In comparison to this, Hester's and the doctor's experiment was harmless of course, but I still didn't think it was a good okay. Even without Adeline's commentary, I think it's obvious that it can only psychologically harm the girls. Adeline and Emeline were so co-dependent, without any other real attachment figures in their life. Taking the only person they connect to away must cause trauma.
It didn't surprise me, though, that Emeline after a while was able to function again while Adeline stayed catatonic. Even though the book says that it was more painful for Emeline because Adeline just fell into darkness, I think Emeline had the easier circumstances. She was allowed to stay in the house where she has lived all her life and around people she knew. Adeline had to go to a new house and live with the doctor and his wife and was robbed off all things she is used to. I don't see how there could have been any positive results.

24) Charlie's death and depression were terrible. I'm still kind of baffled by Isabelle's rapid decline. How did she go from somewhat normal to crazy enough to require hospitalization? What happened? Was it her father's death? I wonder if we'll ever know?

Her father's death probably was a huge factor. Maybe she also felt guilty about it. He did shortly after she left, and had the sepsis because of her hair on his finger. That must have been traumatizing for Isabelle. Another factor probably also was the circumstances she and Charlie were living in before she was hospitalized. A brutal brother she had this disturbed relationship with, this dark, dirty, rotten house and no contact to the outside world? I strongly believe that our living circumstances affect our mental health, and in Isabelle's case, they were sickening.
It's sad that she died in the asylum, but not unexpected. It's a sad truth that mental institutions in the past were not what they are nowaways.

25) What did you think of Hestor's girl in the veil theory? I still can't unify the Adeline Hestor speaks of with the one we've met. Anyone else having trouble?

I don't know. As readers, we never witnessed such a normal-girl-moment from Adeline, so I can't imagine it happening. But I guess it must have, or was Hester just imagining it?

[Nayana]

Moderators of Nothing but Reading Challenges (All the Mods) wrote: "Nayana wrote: "Day 1-completed 78 pages.. About to start day 2 reading. Hoping to complete at least 100 more pages."

Are you liking it so far? I'm guessing by the way your reading your way through..."
Of course I'm loving it which makes me unable to put the book down.. I have to remind myself that I still have days to complete the book..
The book is giving me an uneasy feeling while reading,thinking about how Margaret feels about her twin sister and how Adeline and Emmeline feel about each other. The relation between twins in such a light is a new concept to me.. This is my first book in gothic genre and I'm enjoying it.

[Yzabel]

Questions and Comments for August 5th
The Eye In The View - Angelfield Again

18) I don't know if I'd have noticed it without Lisa saying we should keep track of it, but we again switch from first to third person and back. Very odd.

I admit I haven't been keeping track--I readmostly in the evenings, around 11 pm and later, and I'm probably too tired to catch all the subtleties. But now that it's been mentioned...

19) The second Adeline is very curious. Do you think it was a village child? I can't imagine Emmeline playing with them. Could Isabelle have had another child? Perhaps via her brother? I know, I know it's a terrible thought, but they had such an odd relationship that, yeah, I went there. It would explain the similar appearance.

I can't really explain it. I can't see any village child fitting the bill, and obviously it wasn't the real Adeline. Was it Hester's mind playing tricks on her? Some kind of pent-up guilt at keeping the twins separated, expressing itself through such a "vision"?
I don't think it was another child of Isabelle's, but you never know...

20) There is mention of Hester noticing a young boy in the garden. Could it have been a young Aurelius Love? Could that be why John-the-dig didn't like outsiders on the premise? Could he have been hiding him? Since I already went there, could he be Isabelle and Charlie's son or could he be John-the-dig's? Do we know either the Missus' surname or John's?

The Missus's name was Dunne, and John's was Digence, if I'm not mistaken.
I have a feeling that Aurelius is a little younger than that. I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually one of the twins' son, or something.

21) I don't know about anyone else, but I did not see the Hester and doctor incident coming. Anyone not surprised? I wonder if he'd done something like that before? His wife definitely wasn't surprised.

Not surprised here. They got along like houses on fire, and it was a little as if everybody could see it--that is, everyone but Hester and the doctor.

22) I love all the tracking Margaret has to do to verify Vida's story. It looks like the one document verifies that Vida is indeed Adeline. I think all the research is necessary considering her track record of lying. What's your opinion?

Definitely necessary, considering all the lies and half-truths Vida used to tell interviewers and the likes. Even when such a person is determined to tell the truth, maybe the lies would tend to seep back in without her knowing? Margaret is right in tracking Vida's information.

23) What did you think of the Doctor's and Hester's twin experiment? Without Adeline's commentary, would you have thought it a good idea?

Not a grand idea IMHO, not the way it was conducted. It seemed more cold and cruel than anything else (and all the more cruel because the two adults didn't even see it like that). As if the twins were mice in a lab.
I also agree with Sandra, that Emmeline had it easier because she was in her own house. Would it have been different if the one allowed to stay there had been Adeline? Since, after all, it was Adeline they wanted to reach, "the girl in the mist". Emmeline already seemed more able to function alone at the time, and I don't know why she was given the "less hard" part. It was as if Hester and the doctor had somehow considered Emmeline as someone who wasn't so important in the experiment, wanted to focus on Adeline, and in doing so kind of dehumanised her.

24) Charlie's death and depression were terrible. I'm still kind of baffled by Isabelle's rapid decline. How did she go from somewhat normal to crazy enough to require hospitalization? What happened? Was it her father's death? I wonder if we'll ever know?

Probably everything? Her father's reaction when she said she wanted to go away. How she was raised. The dilapidated house. Her twisted relationship with Charlie as they were growing up. Nothing in her life seemed healthy, not even the Missus and John-the-Dig (because they didn't do much to prevent things from going awry). In fact, Roland March might have been the only positive element in there... and she let him die (or got him killed? Still can't decide...).

25) What did you think of Hestor's girl in the veil theory? I still can't unify the Adeline Hestor speaks of with the one we've met. Anyone else having trouble?

What I can't wrap my mind around is how Hester went from that girl in the mist theory to isolating Adeline from her sister. I mean, I see what her reasoning was, up to a point: she thought Emmeline was doing all the "social work", thus removing any necessity for Adeline's social part to come out. But her intention to reach out to what she thought was perhaps "the real Adeline inside" was carried in such a bizarre way... And yet, that inner girl was probably the one who would become Vida later?

Weird Observation: So I've been toggling between the hardcover book and the audio. Listening to the audio, the chapter titled, "The Eye in the Yew" sounded much more interesting. It sounded like the I in the You. I had to look it up just to verify how it was spelled. It's probably nothing, but I thought it interesting.

I'd say it's on purpose. It's too much of a weird coincidence to be just that, especially with the theme of twins pervading the whole narrative, either with Vida or with Margaret.

[Lisarenee]

Yzabel wrote, "I don't think it was another child of Isabelle's, but you never know..."

Maybe I saw Flowers in the Attic by V.C. Andrews at too early an age. lol I keep getting that kind of vibe from the child sightings.

[Sandra]

I have a question! :)
Does anyone else think that Hester is not gone forever and that she will continue to be important for the story?
I have this impression because Vida was so adamant about her just being a secondary character and irrelevant - that to me it felt like that's a lie.

[Imke]

Questions and Comments for August 5th
The Eye In The View - Angelfield Again

18) I don't know if I'd have noticed it without Lisa saying we should keep track of it, but we again switch from first to third person and back. Very odd.
Yes it’s very odd, to me it feels like she is telling the truth when she is talking in the first person and when it switches to third she is not entirely truthful.

19) The second Adeline is very curious. Do you think it was a village child? I can't imagine Emmeline playing with them. Could Isabelle have had another child? Perhaps via her brother? I know, I know it's a terrible thought, but they had such an odd relationship that, yeah, I went there. It would explain the similar appearance.
I don’t think Isabelle had another child and I have the feeling that the twins are Charlie’s and not Roland’s. I think the second girl is a hallucination of some sort.

20) There is mention of Hester noticing a young boy in the garden. Could it have been a young Aurelius Love? Could that be why John-the-dig didn't like outsiders on the premise? Could he have been hiding him? Since I already went there, could he be Isabelle and Charlie's son or could he be John-the-dig's? Do we know either the Missus' surname or John's?
I don’t think it was Aurelius Love he mentioned that he was found on the night of the house fire. I don’t think John-the-dig or Missus have anything to do with the boy. Also I’m not sure Hester was all there mentally.

21) I don't know about anyone else, but I did not see the Hester and doctor incident coming. Anyone not surprised? I wonder if he'd done something like that before? His wife definitely wasn't surprised.
I wasn’t surprised, I was actually expecting it from the way the story was told. I don’t think he has done something like that before and I think it was something that just happened and that they seemed to have a lot in common.

22) I love all the tracking Margaret has to do to verify Vida's story. It looks like the one document verifies that Vida is indeed Adeline. I think all the research is necessary considering her track record of lying. What's your opinion?
I agree. It’s smart of Margaret to track everything.

23) What did you think of the Doctor's and Hester's twin experiment? Without Adeline's commentary, would you have thought it a good idea?
I was horrified to read about their experiment. Definitely not a good idea.

24) Charlie's death and depression were terrible. I'm still kind of baffled by Isabelle's rapid decline. How did she go from somewhat normal to crazy enough to require hospitalization? What happened? Was it her father's death? I wonder if we'll ever know?
I think she was already damaged mentally, even before her marriage to Roland. Also the depression or other mental disease may have been inherited, it looks like their father wasn’t all there either, the way he reacted to his wife’s death then how he raised Isabelle and totally ignored Charlie and then his suicide after Isabelle left.

25) What did you think of Hestor's girl in the veil theory? I still can't unify the Adeline Hestor speaks of with the one we've met. Anyone else having trouble?

Weird Observation: So I've been toggling between the hardcover book and the audio. Listening to the audio, the chapter titled, "The Eye in the Yew" sounded much more interesting. It sounded like the I in the You. I had to look it up just to verify how it was spelled. It's probably nothing, but I thought it interesting.

[Sandra]

Imke wrote: "I don’t think Isabelle had another child and I have the feeling that the twins are Charlie’s and not Roland’s. I think the second girl is a hallucination of some sort.."

Good to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that the twins are Charlie's incestious daughters!

[Sarah]

Sandra wrote: "Imke wrote: "I don’t think Isabelle had another child and I have the feeling that the twins are Charlie’s and not Roland’s. I think the second girl is a hallucination of some sort.."

Good to see t..."

Well even Margaret questions this in the book.

[Lisarenee]

Sandra wrote: "I have a question! :)
Does anyone else think that Hester is not gone forever and that she will continue to be important for the story?
I have this impression because Vida was so adamant about her j..."

***SPOILER for today's reading***
(view spoiler)[Since there seems to be not trace of her after Angelfield House, I have to wonder... (hide spoiler)]

[Lisarenee]

Sandra wrote: "Imke wrote: "I don’t think Isabelle had another child and I have the feeling that the twins are Charlie’s and not Roland’s. I think the second girl is a hallucination of some sort.."

Good to see t..."

I also think it's possible.

[Lisarenee]

Sarah wrote: "Sandra wrote: "Imke wrote: "I don’t think Isabelle had another child and I have the feeling that the twins are Charlie’s and not Roland’s. I think the second girl is a hallucination of some sort.."..."

I don't know, Hester just didn't strike me as the type to hallucinate.

[Lisarenee]

Amanda is having internet problems and as I haven't heard a peep from her since yesterday, I'm going to start writing up questions for today's reading.

[Lisarenee]

Questions and Comments for August 6th
Mrs. Love Turns A Heel - Fossilized Tears

26) Gah! I was wondering if Adeline and Emmeline were switching off in the storytelling, but after Margaret encounters Emmeline with her burns, I don't think that's possible. Unless my Flowers in the Attic sibling to Adeline pans out, which I think is highly unlikely, I'm at a loss. Any thoughts?

27) Likewise, Aurelius Love seems unlikely to be the boy in the garden, but I still feel he is somehow connected to all this. Could one of the sister's have had a child? Yes, I'm grasping at straws. Anyone else have any ideas?

28) I found it interesting that Adeline was less affected by the Missus' passing than John's. Do you think someone tampered with the safety latch or that John forgot to latch it?

29) I wonder how much more time until the fire we keep hearing about happens? How old are the girls now? I think they said at one point that the fire happened when Adeline was 16.

30) Speaking of fires, what is up with the continuously mentioning of the book Jane Eyre? Is it a clue to something? Any theories?

31) The rule of three--I liked the three messed up socks story that lead to death, death, then a life. If Adeline had been the one to tell this story, I'd have believed she embellished it to sound more mysterious. Any thoughts on who would have left Aurelius on Ms. Love's doorstep? I couldn't help but wonder if she was the same old lady that Adeline watched knitting after she found her uncle dead?

32) Telling the story in the proper order---At first I thought Vida was over simplifying how to write a good story. Now, I'm wondering if what she meant was more complicated. Could she have meant knowing when to hold on to certain information and when to reveal it in it's proper order to keep the reader spellbound or, perhaps more appropriately, book bound? What do you think? Everything seems like an elaborate puzzle that we've got a lot of the pieces to, but not a good understanding of how they fit together.

33) Why do you think they banned Margaret for those three days? Was it just Vida's health or something else?

[Kelly]

Questions and Comments for August 5th
The Eye In The View - Angelfield Again

18) I don't know if I'd have noticed it without Lisa saying we should keep track of it, but we again switch from first to third person and back. Very odd.
I don't know that I notice it so much but it may be because I've gotten used to the new style that seems to switch around first person narrative really quickly so I'm used to not always knowing who's head I'm in. I do wonder if the sections we're reading of Adeline's story are from what Margaret writes at the end.

19) The second Adeline is very curious. Do you think it was a village child? I can't imagine Emmeline playing with them. Could Isabelle have had another child? Perhaps via her brother? I know, I know it's a terrible thought, but they had such an odd relationship that, yeah, I went there. It would explain the similar appearance.
Hrm. I suspect that they might be actual ghosts or maybe manifestations of what the child wants. There's people who've tagged it with ghosts and paranormal though I suppose that could just be from the mentions of them.

20) There is mention of Hester noticing a young boy in the garden. Could it have been a young Aurelius Love? Could that be why John-the-dig didn't like outsiders on the premise? Could he have been hiding him? Since I already went there, could he be Isabelle and Charlie's son or could he be John-the-dig's? Do we know either the Missus' surname or John's?
They said they found him after the fire. I was almost thinking he was either Emmeline or Adeline's child.

21) I don't know about anyone else, but I did not see the Hester and doctor incident coming. Anyone not surprised? I wonder if he'd done something like that before? His wife definitely wasn't surprised.
He did seem rather enraptured with her. I suppose as a wife I'd be a bit pissed off if I had to take care of his "research subjects" while he spent all his freetime with another woman. It reminds me of a podcast I heard where they talked about work spouses which is what the doctor and Hester seem to be.

22) I love all the tracking Margaret has to do to verify Vida's story. It looks like the one document verifies that Vida is indeed Adeline. I think all the research is necessary considering her track record of lying. What's your opinion?
I think to publish she would need all the research to prove to others that it's true. She probably also wants to make sure for herself that she's publishing the truth, or as close as can be. Plus she seems to want to fill out the story more than just what Vida tells her. Since we had some sections that the twins wouldn't have known about I assume Margaret found other people to tell her parts of the story.

23) What did you think of the Doctor's and Hester's twin experiment? Without Adeline's commentary, would you have thought it a good idea?
I think doing it in a better way would have been best. I think you're supposed to do things with twins separately but I don't think ripping them apart and replacing it with nothing is the way to go. You have to help cultivate their own interests. Like if they gave Adeline her own books to read while Emmeline was doing something else.

24) Charlie's death and depression were terrible. I'm still kind of baffled by Isabelle's rapid decline. How did she go from somewhat normal to crazy enough to require hospitalization? What happened? Was it her father's death? I wonder if we'll ever know?
We still don't really know Charlie died then. It's strange that so much death would be in his room but not him actually dead. I suspect that no one in this family is real healthy on a psychological level. They also seem to be into self harm a lot which obviously isn't a basis for a healthy mind.

25) What did you think of Hestor's girl in the veil theory? I still can't unify the Adeline Hestor speaks of with the one we've met. Anyone else having trouble?
It seems like she shed her Adeline skin and became the void inside. Maybe that's the reason for the name. Or it was the void that was left when Emmeline pulled away.

[Yzabel]

Questions and Comments for August 6th
Mrs. Love Turns A Heel - Fossilized Tears

26) Gah! I was wondering if Adeline and Emmeline were switching off in the storytelling, but after Margaret encounters Emmeline with her burns, I don't think that's possible. Unless my Flowers in the Attic sibling to Adeline pans out, which I think is highly unlikely, I'm at a loss. Any thoughts?

I'm not sure about another, hidden child. If there had been one, sooner or later Hester would have found her (the Missus was just too old to keep something like that hidden in the house). Or if there is one, she was kept somewhere else, but I don't see where. The Angelfield people didn't seem to have that many connections, and they strike me more as the type to keep their wives in the attic anyway.

27) Likewise, Aurelius Love seems unlikely to be the boy in the garden, but I still feel he is somehow connected to all this. Could one of the sister's have had a child? Yes, I'm grasping at straws. Anyone else have any ideas?

I was leaning towards the "one of the sisters had a hidden child" theory, too. Aurelius was found on the night of the fire, and the boy in the garden appeared before that, so I don't see how both could be the same person.

28) I found it interesting that Adeline was less affected by the Missus' passing than John's. Do you think someone tampered with the safety latch or that John forgot to latch it?

I'm torn about that. Maybe someone tampered with it... or maybe John kind of knew it, but didn't do anything about it because it didn't matter to him anymore, or something? I wonder if we'll get a definite answer later. So many things are heavily implied in this book, yet never completely confirmed.

29) I wonder how much more time until the fire we keep hearing about happens? How old are the girls now? I think they said at one point that the fire happened when Adeline was 16.

Perhaps there's one year left before the fire at this point. I admit I haven't kept track, but they must be 15 or so when John dies? Or not too far from 16.

30) Speaking of fires, what is up with the continuously mentioning of the book Jane Eyre? Is it a clue to something? Any theories?

I think there's a connnection, yes. (view spoiler)[The fire at Angelfield echoes the fire at Thornhill Hall, the one in which Bertha dies and Rochester becomes blind. Adeline taking care of the disfigured Emmeline is somehow reminiscent of the relationship Jane had with Rochester after that (in that she cared for him, but also somehow had the upper hand, since he was blind). And there's Bertha kept hidden in the attic for years. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if someone had been living in the attic or cellar or something at Angelfield either. (hide spoiler)]

31) The rule of three--I liked the three messed up socks story that lead to death, death, then a life. If Adeline had been the one to tell this story, I'd have believed she embellished it to sound more mysterious. Any thoughts on who would have left Aurelius on Ms. Love's doorstep? I couldn't help but wonder if she was the same old lady that Adeline watched knitting after she found her uncle dead?

True, there was that knitting lady. She could very well be the same. In which case, perhaps the one who left Aurelius behind was Adeline, and she left him there because she thought that lady looked nice, and would provide comfort to the baby? Just like she was comforted by looking at her.

32) Telling the story in the proper order---At first I thought Vida was over simplifying how to write a good story. Now, I'm wondering if what she meant was more complicated. Could she have meant knowing when to hold on to certain information and when to reveal it in it's proper order to keep the reader spellbound or, perhaps more appropriately, book bound? What do you think? Everything seems like an elaborate puzzle that we've got a lot of the pieces to, but not a good understanding of how they fit together.

I think I've been piecing things together, but I'm waiting until I read the last chapters to see if I was right or not. And I'd agree that beginnings, middles and ends don't necessarily mean "chronological order". Some things are best kept for later for the sake of good storytelling.

33) Why do you think they banned Margaret for those three days? Was it just Vida's health or something else?

I was leaning towards Vida's health getting worse.

[Selinea]

A little late. I got the book from the library yesterday since I just joined the group on Monday, haha. And then I got distracted and read two other books in the interim, oops. I'm really liking the book so far (just finished day 3's reading), but it's not very marathonable. (Why is it so easy to inhale fluff and so difficult to drown in something deep?)

1) What do think of the author's writing style? Does it remind you of any other author's? She certainly uses the word corpse a lot. Do you get a sense that this is going to be a dark tale?
I'm an idiot. I was thinking plot element and book construction comparisons. A little bit of The Things They Carried, a little bit of Manon Des Source. I completely forgot about style comparisons. I really like the writing style, it has that soft art/poetry feel to it, much like The Swan Thieves, but thankfully a bit less dense and a bit more quotable. (I once tried typing out a quote from The Swan Thieves, it was something about oranges, and it was impossible, because no sentence looked good out of context. Even an entire paragraph wasn't enough. It was like a work of art, only a view of the full painting would do.) The Thirteenth Tale is a bit less impossible, although judging from those huge quotes in the questions, it's still pretty free flowing and hard to pluck out just one strand of a sentence. A couple strands that are able to be plucked out (and not really spoilers to boot): "It never changes, a single lupine exhalation could reduce it to rubble." and "The sky by now was blooming shades of purple, indigo and gunpowder"
These two, I think, are pretty indicative of the poetry. The twisting of words that reminds you sometimes fancier synonyms can indeed be used to greater effect, and a single unexpected punchy descriptor can really resonate.
And it's quietly sad, you can kind of feel it in her distant mother, you can kind of feel it in those two quotes, it infuses the book, but subtly.

2) "Reading can be dangerous." Have you ever had a dangerous encounter of a bookish kind?
I love what the author did with this. Typically, it's all, "knowledge makes people dangerous," and I see people on here answer with the typical answer, that's how pervasive it is. And to turn it on its head, books are physically dangerous because they distract you, was amazing. With the exception of skipped meals and all-nighters, books have never really been dangerous, haha. I generally need to be in a comfortable position before I start reading, because otherwise I get too paranoid to enjoy the book.

3) If someone sent you a letter like Vida Winter's, would you be intrigued enough to go meet with her? (That is, of course, if you were a person who writes biographies?) What's your initial impression of Vida? Do you think she'll tell Margaret her true story?
I would certainly be intrigued, and I would have loved to hear her story, but if I had been a biographer, I don't know if I could have managed dictating and the lack of outside research/other sources I could check would have driven me nuts, so much so that I don't think I could manage writing and publishing her story. Also, if I really liked her books, I don't think I would necessarily want to know the author behind them. Books are a product of their author, but I really hate reading books with the lens of some personal knowledge of the author imposed over the story.
I like people with spine, but I also think Vida takes things too "all or nothing", which would really bother me in real life. As a book character, she's really not very well fleshed out in that first meeting, which may be on purpose since we're about to hear her story, but a little annoying in that you can distill it down to, she likes proper order to stories, she doesn't like politeness, etc.
And I agree with the people who say she'll tell the truth, as much as her memory can be relied upon. Things we remember to be true might not actually be true. I remember learning about it in psychology, about how unreliable the memory was, and I remember not really believing that, like, I'm pretty unobservant and constantly hazy on details, but surely things I remember to be concrete truths are true.
But then, last year, we were on vacation, and we were driving along a stretch of road towards a place called Castle Point, and we thought this one scenic turn-off towards the lake had been near the beginning of the drive and then we'd driven a long while to reach Castle Point, but on the way back, we discovered that the scenic turn-off was actually rather close to Castle Point. I was absolutely stunned, at first, I thought they must have just had two identical turn-offs. But no, my brain had just switched the order of the long drive and the turn-off in my memories, the truth according to the map was it was closer to Castle Point. I think that was the first time my memories had been so concretely contradicted by truth, and it bothers me even now.

4) What would you do if you discovered you had a twin who died? If you were a parent, would you tell your child about her lost sibling? I wonder how long the twin lived?
If I had discovered this tomorrow, as a 21-year-old? I'd be livid.
A sort of, but not really side tangent. During my senior year of high school, my maternal grandmother died. My mom's workplace doesn't allow cellphones, and she was working overtime that day, so the call came in on our house phone. I asked my dad how he was going to tell my mom, and he said he wasn't. He was going to tell her that my grandfather called saying my grandmother had taken a turn for the worse and that she should call my grandfather. And then I hid upstairs in my room and let him lie because the last thing my mom needed was an argument between my dad and me. But I never forgave him for his cowardice for being unable to break the news, and I made him promise he'd never do something like that to me.
And I lie all the time. Whatever details make the narrative go better is the details I go with, and if someone actually remembered the details for some strange reason and I didn't, in the future, we could just have one of those, huh, funny how the memory fills in fuzzy details differently, moments. But if I was a parent, I would definitely tell my child if their twin had died, that's just not something you try to smooth over. Especially since losing a child might explain some of her mother's behavior.

5) Would you enjoy reading someone's diary from the past?
I don't really know, I guess it depends on whether those diaries were intended to be read? I know I keep three blogs. One is the one I want everybody I know to read. It has cute picture, funny anecdotes, profound thoughts, etc. One is a journal that I wouldn't mind people stumbling across, reading about my day or my reactions to particular books/tv shows. And one blog is locked behind a password and meant only as a space for me to rant. And I wouldn't want anybody to read that one, even after I was dead and gone. Because then I don't care about being immortal, if I'm remembered by the darkest side of the real me.

6) What do you make of the 13 Tales that contain only 12?
If I stumbled across such a book in real life, I'd say it's a gimmick. Something cheesy about the thirteenth tale being the story you yourself write. (I love gimmicks though. Someday, I want to write a book and then rearrange and publish all the chapters according to chapter length and have people try to piece it back together.) Given this book, however, and Vida, I'd say the Thirteen Tale was the one she was supposed to write, the one she was supposed to divest in her first book and be done with, but she couldn't write it and held off until the end of her life.

7) What did you think of the statement,"Our lives are so important to us that we tend to think the story of them begins with our birth. First there was nothing, then I was born...Yet that is not so. Human lives are not pieces of string that can be separated out from a knot of others and laid out straight. Families are webs. Impossible to touch one part of it without setting the rest vibrating. Impossible to understand one part without having a sense of the whole." I rather liked that. Have you ever thought about families in such a way? Do you agree or disagree with her statement?
I think I've thought of life in such a way. I'm a religious studies major, and at my college, it doesn't require a concentration, so you can essentially get a sampler of all the religions, and we read this one book in Buddhism class about how everything is everything. A piece of paper is the tree but also the soil, the rain, the clouds, even the logger, and the paper making machinery. So I don't think I so much think of families that way as much as I think everything is connected. We are all all. (Oh geez, that sounded so new-age, Buddhism as a philosophy and not really a religion and the exact opposite of what I want to promote about Buddhism, but we did read this book and I did like that book.)


8) What did you make of Charlie and Isabelle? Disturbing or what? It sounds like Isabelle killed her husband.
I'm really glad it wasn't a, Charlie is a bully and Isabelle is a victim sort of story. Isabelle is likewise odd and unlikeable. I find it kind of weird that the rumors say she's like that because of an umbilical cord wrapped around her neck when she was born, because given how crazy her father and brother are and descriptions of her mother, I'd say it's probably just genetics compounded by her upbringing. And it did sound kind of sketchy, that when asked about the twins' names, the first thing she answered was "March", like she married him just to give the twins a last name.

9) I kept wondering if Charlie and Isabelle would hurt the twins. It sounded like Missus and John-the-Dig raised the kids more so than anyone else. Do you think the girls destroyed the garden? What did you make of their twin speak?
I briefly wondered that too, since Charlie/Isabelle were quite malicious as children, but it seems like they just forgot about their existence instead. The only other people who would have destroyed the garden would be Charlie and/or Isabelle, and I don't think they care that much about their surroundings at this point? While the twins are curious and looking for new things to do. I think any two people who spend a lot of time growing up together and not hearing other people talk would end up developing their own language. Like, it's been hypothesized that that's how children learn language. When they say their first word, they're actually just babbling like usual, but because the people around them get excited, they learn babbling certain syllables can produce results. If I decided to call something a voom and my sibling learned it from me and there was no adult around to correct me, then of course that thing would be known as a voom.

10) Knowing Isabelle was Miss Winter's mother and Charlie her uncle, would you be a little nervous being with her? Yes, I know we're not our parents, but...
I think it's already off-putting, with the sound absorbers everywhere and listening to the last story of a dying woman. I don't think learning about Isabelle/Charlie would make her any better or worse in my eyes.

I find it interesting she's addressing herself in the third person. Do you think this is because of her storyteller nature?
I think it's also the arbitrary nature of twins. Like, how do you really know which twin you are? Maybe the name you think is yours is actually your sister's.

I'm getting close to the character limit, so that's all for this post. (It is also 4:30 in the morning, and I am not at all sure how many typos I made and how coherent all of this is.) Looking forward to finishing the book and seeing how all these questions resolve!

[Sandra]

Questions and Comments for August 6th
Mrs. Love Turns A Heel - Fossilized Tears

26) Gah! I was wondering if Adeline and Emmeline were switching off in the storytelling, but after Margaret encounters Emmeline with her burns, I don't think that's possible. Unless my Flowers in the Attic sibling to Adeline pans out, which I think is highly unlikely, I'm at a loss. Any thoughts?

I'm at a loss, too. Whenever I start to develop a theory about what is going on, something else happens and my theory is ruined. I'll just go with the flow and wait to see what happens for now.

27) Likewise, Aurelius Love seems unlikely to be the boy in the garden, but I still feel he is somehow connected to all this. Could one of the sister's have had a child? Yes, I'm grasping at straws. Anyone else have any ideas?

I think it's most likely that one of the twins had a child and that i Aurelius. I think the boy who was hired to work in the garden (what was his name again?) might be the father. They were all alone with him now, and Adeline mentioned several times how womanly they look now, though.. I'm curious to see if Aurelius is the result of a love affair.

I also think now that Aurelius is the reporter in the brown suit that Vida mentioned in her letter. But I'm grasping at straws, too! I got this feeling when he said that he wished that someone would just tell him the truth so I might be wrong .. Or it might not even be important.

28) I found it interesting that Adeline was less affected by the Missus' passing than John's. Do you think someone tampered with the safety latch or that John forgot to latch it?

I was thinking that one of the twins tampered with it. But I don't see a reason why. It's all so confusing for me at the moment.

29) I wonder how much more time until the fire we keep hearing about happens? How old are the girls now? I think they said at one point that the fire happened when Adeline was 16.

The last mentioned age was 15, so the fire must be coming soon!

30) Speaking of fires, what is up with the continuously mentioning of the book Jane Eyre? Is it a clue to something? Any theories?

Unfortunately, I have to admit that I've never read Jane Eyre. I'm sure there is a connection or it at least is symbolic for something in the story, but since I don't know it, I can't make the connection. But it HAS to be a clue! I don't think anything in this novel gets mentioned without a reason.

31) The rule of three--I liked the three messed up socks story that lead to death, death, then a life. If Adeline had been the one to tell this story, I'd have believed she embellished it to sound more mysterious. Any thoughts on who would have left Aurelius on Ms. Love's doorstep? I couldn't help but wonder if she was the same old lady that Adeline watched knitting after she found her uncle dead?

I think she is the same old lady. That would also make Adeline leaving Aurelius there more likely.

32) Telling the story in the proper order---At first I thought Vida was over simplifying how to write a good story. Now, I'm wondering if what she meant was more complicated. Could she have meant knowing when to hold on to certain information and when to reveal it in it's proper order to keep the reader spellbound or, perhaps more appropriately, book bound? What do you think? Everything seems like an elaborate puzzle that we've got a lot of the pieces to, but not a good understanding of how they fit together.

It is an elaborate puzzle, indeed! I wish I could fit it together already. This book is giving us so many clues - perhaps even too many to not be confused? - but I just can't work it out.
By the way, in my opinion it's prove for the brillance of the book that despite it being so confusing and me not being able to figure it out, I still love it and can't wait to find out! In a book of a less gifted writer I'd be frustrated by now.

33) Why do you think they banned Margaret for those three days? Was it just Vida's health or something else?

I was thinking because of Vida's health, but then I was wondering if it has something to do with the sister.

[Lisarenee]

Questions and Comments for August 7th
Underwater Cryptography - Demolishing The Past

34) So we're starting to get a clearer picture and the pieces are starting to fit together... We now have some idea how Aurelius is connected with all this. He's the young man in the brown suit asking for the truth. The bag he was found in was Thomas Proctor's. The spoon from Angelfield House. We know Hestor never left the house, or so we assume, but have no clue why. Where was she? Is she truly the person whose's body they found? Could this be a red herring? We also know it was because of Emmeline (now confirmed) being ill that Margaret's was banished. I have a new question, Why did Miss Winters insist on Margaret writing the story? Is she somehow connected to all of this also?

35) Did anyone else think it odd that Margaret would, without asking, bring Aurelius into the Winter household? The whole scene was odd. What happened to Aurelius later? Was he truly making cake deliveries or did something happen to him?

36) We still don't know who disliked John enough to wreck the garden and undo the safety latch. Any ideas? Are the two incidents related? Is Miss Winters lying about anything? Did the twins truly demolish John's garden? Could John be the twins real father?

37) Why did Roland (Emmeline & Adeline's father) March's family never inquire about the girls. This is very puzzling.

38) Could Isabelle not have died in the asylum? Could she be the person Hestor saw playing with Emmeline? Again, I'm grasping as straws.

39) Could Aurelius be Hestor's? If so, by who? The doctor? Charlie? John? Thomas?

40) Okay, make your prediction (if you haven't read ahead) with the spoiler tags like so:
Example---This:
<spoiler>The butler did it the study with the knife</spoiler>

Will end up looking like this when posted:
(view spoiler)[The butler did it the study with the knife (hide spoiler)]

Which when clicked upon will look like:
[The butler did it the study with the knife (hide spoiler)]

[Imke]

Questions and Comments for August 6th
Mrs. Love Turns A Heel - Fossilized Tears

26) Gah! I was wondering if Adeline and Emmeline were switching off in the storytelling, but after Margaret encounters Emmeline with her burns, I don't think that's possible. Unless my Flowers in the Attic sibling to Adeline pans out, which I think is highly unlikely, I'm at a loss. Any thoughts?
The story telling is all Adeline, the changes in the way the story is told is probable a change in view or a way to distance herself, maybe she is even trying to hide things and doesn’t want to lie. I don’t think there are any extra siblings.

27) Likewise, Aurelius Love seems unlikely to be the boy in the garden, but I still feel he is somehow connected to all this. Could one of the sister's have had a child? Yes, I'm grasping at straws. Anyone else have any ideas?
I think he is family or connected to someone in Angelfield House, maybe even Adeline’s or Emmeline’s child.

28) I found it interesting that Adeline was less affected by the Missus' passing than John's. Do you think someone tampered with the safety latch or that John forgot to latch it?
I suspect the safety latch has been tampered with. I think Adeline was starting to develop a relationship with John, or she felt his disapproval of Hester and therefore feels a connection with him.

29) I wonder how much more time until the fire we keep hearing about happens? How old are the girls now? I think they said at one point that the fire happened when Adeline was 16.
Not long I think, almost all the extras are gone from the house. The girls are 15.

30) Speaking of fires, what is up with the continuously mentioning of the book Jane Eyre? Is it a clue to something? Any theories?
I think it’s a clue, there is definitely a connection between what happened in Jane Eyre and what has happened and is going to happen in the book. There is abandonment and neglect, people being hidden and of course the impending fire.

31) The rule of three--I liked the three messed up socks story that lead to death, death, then a life. If Adeline had been the one to tell this story, I'd have believed she embellished it to sound more mysterious. Any thoughts on who would have left Aurelius on Ms. Love's doorstep? I couldn't help but wonder if she was the same old lady that Adeline watched knitting after she found her uncle dead?
I also think she is the old lady Adeline saw and maybe that’s why Aurelius had been left on her doorstep. I think Adeline left him there, that doesn’t mean she is his mother, but I think she did this to protect him or give him a better chance of a “normal” life.

32) Telling the story in the proper order---At first I thought Vida was over simplifying how to write a good story. Now, I'm wondering if what she meant was more complicated. Could she have meant knowing when to hold on to certain information and when to reveal it in it's proper order to keep the reader spellbound or, perhaps more appropriately, book bound? What do you think? Everything seems like an elaborate puzzle that we've got a lot of the pieces to, but not a good understanding of how they fit together.
I agree, I think we just have to be patient and wait until the story is told and not to make too many assumptions along the way, although the speculating is kind of fun. It will all be revealed in the end.

33) Why do you think they banned Margaret for those three days? Was it just Vida's health or something else?
I think it was Vida’s health.

[Yzabel]

Hum, I'm almost done (couldn't wait for tomorrow XD), so I guess I'm going to skip today's questions... Pretending to make predictions when you already know what actually happens isn't funny. ^^;

[Lisarenee]

***My thoughts of what's going on prior to last section***
I'm going to start reading again, so here's my prediction
(view spoiler)[There is a hidden sister who's the result of an incestuous relationship between Charlie and Isabelle. Like in Flowers in the attic, the parents hide the child never letting anyone know about her existence. The change from first to third person is a result of two sisters sharing the identity of Vida Winter. Hestor's affair with the doctor was more than we knew and she had a child and later died in the fire or perhaps childbirth and the fire was set to hide her death? Why? I have no idea. Adeline then took the child to Ms. Love. That's all I got. (hide spoiler)]

[Lisarenee]

Christine said, "Stepping on dogs is a bad idea."

I bet! lol

Christine said, "I've started a lot of diaries but never got the hang of it. I don't have the discipline to write everday, even if it's only a single sentence."

Same here. :)

[Lisarenee]

Sandra said, Maybe now that Miss Winter's story comes to a part where they have a more regular life, it's easier for her to relate to her younger self. Probably now that she is an old women and a famous best-seller author, it's hard even for herself to see her as this wild, untamed, slightly crazy little girl.

That's what I wondered at first to. I just usually notice when people talk of themselves in third person. I always find it rather odd. My son's done it to me on occasion and I ask him who this mysterious person with the same name as his? lol He usually rolls his eyes at me.

[Lisarenee]

☼♎ Carmen the Bootyshaker Temptress ☼♎ said," Unless a paper cut counts or when my sister-in-law ruined my book. :)

[Lisarenee]

☼♎ Carmen the Bootyshaker Temptress ☼♎ said," Unless a paper cut counts or when my sister-in-law ruined my book. :)"

lol The latter could be dangerous for your sister-in-law. I'd be upset. I once loaned out a book to someone and it came back torn with teeth marks in it. Their dog got ahold of it. They bought me a new one. I can only imagine my face when I saw it. lol.

☼♎ Carmen the Bootyshaker Temptress ☼♎ said,"Definitely! It's always nice to see the difference from the past to present or how other people were then compare to now."

I think so too.


☼♎ Carmen the Bootyshaker Temptress ☼♎ said,"I can't imagine the doctor, his wife, and the community allowing the twins to go on living the way they are know that the mom has been taken away and the twins have been so neglected. I thought maybe they would go live with someone else."

I was surprised as well, but at the time people left children more unattended then they do now.

[Lisarenee]

Kelly said, "They said they found him after the fire. I was almost thinking he was either Emmeline or Adeline's child.

One of my theories as well, but I have so many I can't figure out which ones are good and which aren't. lol I love the mystery of it all.

[Lisarenee]

I'm not sure about another, hidden child. If there had been one, sooner or later Hester would have found her (the Missus was just too old to keep something like that hidden in the house).

The very thought that makes me think this is unlikely.

[Lisarenee]

Selinea said, "I think I've thought of life in such a way. I'm a religious studies major, and at my college, it doesn't require a concentration, so you can essentially get a sampler of all the religions, and we read this one book in Buddhism class about how everything is everything. A piece of paper is the tree but also the soil, the rain, the clouds, even the logger, and the paper making machinery. So I don't think I so much think of families that way as much as I think everything is connected. We are all all. (Oh geez, that sounded so new-age, Buddhism as a philosophy and not really a religion and the exact opposite of what I want to promote about Buddhism, but we did read this book and I did like that book.)"

lol It sounds like an interesting class. I always wanted to study religions. It would be fun to see the similarities and differences.

Selinea said, I really like the writing style, it has that soft art/poetry feel to it, much like The Swan Thieves, but thankfully a bit less dense and a bit more quotable. (I once tried typing out a quote from The Swan Thieves, it was something about oranges, and it was impossible, because no sentence looked good out of context. Even an entire paragraph wasn't enough. It was like a work of art, only a view of the full painting would do.) "

I've been meaning to read that one. I think I own it. Maybe one day...

Selinea said, "I was absolutely stunned, at first, I thought they must have just had two identical turn-offs. But no, my brain had just switched the order of the long drive and the turn-off in my memories, the truth according to the map was it was closer to Castle Point. I think that was the first time my memories had been so concretely contradicted by truth, and it bothers me even now."

I've done that before and its very disconcerting.

[Lisarenee]

Sandra said, "Whenever I start to develop a theory about what is going on, something else happens and my theory is ruined."

Same here. It's maddening yet fun.

[Kelly]

Questions and Comments for August 6th
Mrs. Love Turns A Heel - Fossilized Tears

26) Gah! I was wondering if Adeline and Emmeline were switching off in the storytelling, but after Margaret encounters Emmeline with her burns, I don't think that's possible. Unless my Flowers in the Attic sibling to Adeline pans out, which I think is highly unlikely, I'm at a loss. Any thoughts?
I think maybe they were kindof one person when they were younger. Though they switched personalities at one point it seemed like. Though I suppose people do that anyway maybe just not in this extreme of a way.

27) Likewise, Aurelius Love seems unlikely to be the boy in the garden, but I still feel he is somehow connected to all this. Could one of the sister's have had a child? Yes, I'm grasping at straws. Anyone else have any ideas?
I'm guessing since the boy they knew was Ambrose and that works for the A at the beginning and S at the end that it's his child with one of the sisters.

28) I found it interesting that Adeline was less affected by the Missus' passing than John's. Do you think someone tampered with the safety latch or that John forgot to latch it?
I somewhat suspected it was suicide but John seemed to be acting better than right after Missus' died so I don't think it's that.

29) I wonder how much more time until the fire we keep hearing about happens? How old are the girls now? I think they said at one point that the fire happened when Adeline was 16.
I suspect that the fire will be one of the last things we read about, probably right before she dies. Though I hope they don't go literary on us and she dies right before the climax of telling her story.

30) Speaking of fires, what is up with the continuously mentioning of the book Jane Eyre? Is it a clue to something? Any theories?
Hmm. Wikipedia has "Charlotte Brontë has been called the 'first historian of the private consciousness' and the literary ancestor of writers like Joyce and Proust." So maybe it's about the fictional history type feel.

31) The rule of three--I liked the three messed up socks story that lead to death, death, then a life. If Adeline had been the one to tell this story, I'd have believed she embellished it to sound more mysterious. Any thoughts on who would have left Aurelius on Ms. Love's doorstep? I couldn't help but wonder if she was the same old lady that Adeline watched knitting after she found her uncle dead?
I think Emmeline did. She has her box of treasures and it seems to match with the inheritance that Aurelius was given.

32) Telling the story in the proper order---At first I thought Vida was over simplifying how to write a good story. Now, I'm wondering if what she meant was more complicated. Could she have meant knowing when to hold on to certain information and when to reveal it in it's proper order to keep the reader spellbound or, perhaps more appropriately, book bound? What do you think? Everything seems like an elaborate puzzle that we've got a lot of the pieces to, but not a good understanding of how they fit together.
Maybe it's about leading the reader on a path that lets them discover the moral since if you do something yourself you learn it better than if it's told to you.

33) Why do you think they banned Margaret for those three days? Was it just Vida's health or something else?
I suspect it was something else since she's been in fairly poor health the whole time.

[Kelly]

Questions and Comments for August 7th
Underwater Cryptography - Demolishing The Past

34) So we're starting to get a clearer picture and the pieces are starting to fit together... We now have some idea how Aurelius is connected with all this. He's the young man in the brown suit asking for the truth. The bag he was found in was Thomas Proctor's. The spoon from Angelfield House. We know Hestor never left the house, or so we assume, but have no clue why. Where was she? Is she truly the person whose's body they found? Could this be a red herring? We also know it was because of Emmeline (now confirmed) being ill that Margaret's was banished. I have a new question, Why did Miss Winters insist on Margaret writing the story? Is she somehow connected to all of this also?
Hrm. It could be Charles. I wonder if they found him dead and hid him since they didn't want to lose the house. Then again, not finding any future mention of Hestor seems to indicate that it's probably her that died. I wonder if Adeline knows that Margaret was a twin.

35) Did anyone else think it odd that Margaret would, without asking, bring Aurelius into the Winter household? The whole scene was odd. What happened to Aurelius later? Was he truly making cake deliveries or did something happen to him?
That did seem a bit odd. I probably would have asked. Plus, she never confirmed she was right. She had strong suspicions but how horrible would it have been if she was wrong.

36) We still don't know who disliked John enough to wreck the garden and undo the safety latch. Any ideas? Are the two incidents related? Is Miss Winters lying about anything? Did the twins truly demolish John's garden? Could John be the twins real father?
Maybe the boy demolished the garden. I don't think John is their father. That seems strange that Isabelle would lie about that. Plus you'd think he'd take over for them when she was out of the picture. I can't imagine Charles kicking them out since he already thought they'd been fathered by someone else.

37) Why did Roland (Emmeline & Adeline's father) March's family never inquire about the girls. This is very puzzling.
I suspect they probably didn't know.

38) Could Isabelle not have died in the asylum? Could she be the person Hestor saw playing with Emmeline? Again, I'm grasping as straws.
I think it would have been more obvious if it was a teenager and a lady in her 30's that they weren't twins.

39) Could Aurelius be Hestor's? If so, by who? The doctor? Charlie? John? Thomas?
I was still thinking he was Emmeline and Ambrose's.

40) Okay, make your prediction
(view spoiler)[The twin, in the garden, with the gardening shears... oh wait. I'm guessing that Adeline set the fire accidentally and it hurt Emmeline and she never forgave herself. I suspect it's Hester who died. I also suspect that Emmeline is nuts and probably killed both Hester and John. (hide spoiler)]

[Lisarenee]

Questions and Comments for August 8th
Hestor's Diary II - End

41) Did you get anywhere near the "true" story? What part of the ending surprised you the most? What surprised you the least?

42) What did you like most about the ending? What did you like least (if you disliked anything)?

43) Was there anything that you wanted revealed that wasn't? I, personally, kept wondering if they sent a sane Isabelle to the asylum? She wasn't the violin culprit after all. How tragic it would be if she was mentally stable. I guess since this was Vida's tale and no one else's Isabelle's state of mind wasn't a priority.

44) So do you think it was Emmeline or Adeline who in the end got saved?

45) What will you rate the book? Will you read more of Diane Setterfield's books?

FYI, this was the author's first book. Wow!

[Sandra]

Questions and Comments for August 7th
Underwater Cryptography - Demolishing The Past

34) So we're starting to get a clearer picture and the pieces are starting to fit together... We now have some idea how Aurelius is connected with all this. He's the young man in the brown suit asking for the truth. The bag he was found in was Thomas Proctor's. The spoon from Angelfield House. We know Hestor never left the house, or so we assume, but have no clue why. Where was she? Is she truly the person whose's body they found? Could this be a red herring? We also know it was because of Emmeline (now confirmed) being ill that Margaret's was banished. I have a new question, Why did Miss Winters insist on Margaret writing the story? Is she somehow connected to all of this also?

I'm so glad that Aurelius turned out to be the man in the brown suit. Finally one of my theories was right - might be the first time happening with this bool! ;)

But I don't believe that Hester never left the house. That makes more sense to me and brings up to many questions: Where was she all the time? Did she hide somewhere in the unused rooms? Did noone ever notice? She liked order and clealiness so much and the house was starting to get dirty and chaotic again, so why would she stay? I don't get it, it just makes no sense to me. Therefore I also don't think that she is the body that was found.
I don't remember who mentioned it, but the theory that one of you came up with about another sibling - I'm starting to believe in this, after all! But it's all so confusing..
As how Margaret might be connected, I have no idea. But it could be possible.

35) Did anyone else think it odd that Margaret would, without asking, bring Aurelius into the Winter household? The whole scene was odd. What happened to Aurelius later? Was he truly making cake deliveries or did something happen to him?

It was odd, yes. Vida mentioned not caring about politeness so it might be less of a big deal to bring a stranger into the house, but still odd. But we have to keep in mind that Margaret was very distraught and basically not in her right mind that day.
I hope that he was really making deliveries and nothing happened to him!

36) We still don't know who disliked John enough to wreck the garden and undo the safety latch. Any ideas? Are the two incidents related? Is Miss Winters lying about anything? Did the twins truly demolish John's garden? Could John be the twins real father?

I still think that Charlie was the twin's father. I also still think that the twins demolished the garden. About the safety latch, I'm not sure.. It sounds like something Adeline would have done as a child, but she seemed so much more sensible during this part of the story, so I don't think it was her and that she was lying about it. But why would Emeline do it? Ugh.. It makes no sense to me.

37) Why did Roland (Emmeline & Adeline's father) March's family never inquire about the girls. This is very puzzling.

Again, I have no idea.. Nothing makes sense to me right now!

38) Could Isabelle not have died in the asylum? Could she be the person Hestor saw playing with Emmeline? Again, I'm grasping as straws.

I don't think it was Isabelle. I think Hester would have noticed the difference between a child and a grown woman, even from a distance. Besides, I see no reason why the asylum should have sent a letter announcing her death if she didn't die there. I think I'm leaning to a "third secret sibling"-theory after all.

39) Could Aurelius be Hestor's? If so, by who? The doctor? Charlie? John? Thomas?

I'm still guissing he is one of the twins' child, but I'm not sure.

40) Okay, make your prediction
(view spoiler)[ I'm not sure about anything, so here is my prediction: There was a third child. Either it was Charlie's and Isabelle's - so I don't get why Vida never mentioned - or maybe Charlie's and the women the had sex with during this summer when Isabelle met her husband? But again, no idea why Vida never mentioned. Then the found body would have been the body of this child.
But .. weird theory ... I still can't make sense of why wild untamed crazy Adeline all of a sudden turned into this sensible girl. So maybe .. she didn't? Would it be possible that at some point the secret sibling and Adeline switched personalities? It doesn't make much sense, and I have no idea what the reason for it could possibly be, but the thought is spooking through my head. Anyone else having such an idea? (hide spoiler)]