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Buddenbrooks
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Buddenbrooks -- Mar/Apr 2018 Group Classic Read
Super. I’m still doubting in which language I’ll read it.
Looking forward to this. My library didn't have a copy so I bought a cheap second hand copy online. I didn't even think about the translation. It's the Everyman's library edition.
I have the paperback of the John E. Woods translation, which has a good reputation.
I will be reading an Italian translation, but I can't remember the translator's name. I've had a copy of this book for ages, but never got round to reading it. I will pick it up in a couple of weeks since it is at my parents', as many of my books. I'm looking forward to it.
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As a matter of literary history, Buddenbrooks is not only a large part of the basis for Mann's Nobel Prize, but conceivably the finest novel ever written by any author in his or her first quarter-century. Mann began it when he was 22, finished it the month after he turned 25, and saw it published when he was 26.
Patrick wrote: "As a matter of literary history, Buddenbrooks is not only a large part of the basis for Mann's Nobel Prize, but conceivably the finest novel ever written by any author in his first quarter-century...."Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks.
Charles Dickens' The Pickwick Papers was published when he was 25 and is full of life and energy, but is not a carefully constructed art-novel like Buddenbrooks. Probably the closest competition in the "youthful masterpiece" category is Thomas Pynchon's V., which like Buddenbrooks was published when its author was 26.
Thanks Patrick -- very interesting info :)
I wasn’t planning on reading another long classic BUT I have been wanting to read this book for a long time and the library has a copy so I’ll give it a shot! My expectations are high for this one!
I can't find a book version of the Woods translation, but have the old Penguin Lowe-Porter version, the Woods audio version (27 hrs) narrated by the excellent David Rintoul, plus the German original (from my German 'A-Level' days). So looking forward to the read - multi-media!
John wrote: "I can't find a book version of the Woods translation, but have the old Penguin Lowe-Porter version, the Woods audio version (27 hrs) narrated by the excellent David Rintoul, plus the German origina..."Wow - that truly is multimedia!
I also have the John E. Woods translation. I read a few chapters last night. The first thing I was wondering is what year is it. I didn’t see any reference to dates so I looked it up in Wiki. It starts in 1835.
Pam wrote: "I also have the John E. Woods translation. I read a few chapters last night. The first thing I was wondering is what year is it. I didn’t see any reference to dates so I looked it up in Wiki. It st..."It is important to recognize that at the time the novel opens, there was no German nation. There was a loose German Confederation of 39 member-states that had been established by 1820 as a result of negotiations at the Congress of Vienna. Lübeck, the (unnamed) setting of the novel, was an independent city-state and one of the 39. A unified German nation similar to what we know today did not come until after the Franco-Prussian War in 1870-1871.
Although Mann never mentions Lübeck directly in Buddenbrooks, the setting would have been obvious to a contemporary German reader. Many of the families and characters had real-life counterparts, and Mann got a lot of grief for that. A very similar case in American literature is Thomas Wolfe, whose massive autobiographical novels scandalized his hometown of Asheville, North Carolina.
Patrick, I love how you give us such interesting pieces of information. You seem to be quite knowledgeable in this. It will be a great pleasure to read the book piecing together all of your info and discussing it with you and the other friends in the group.
I am currently reading a book about another German Nobel Prize laureate, Gerhart Hauptmann ("Wiesenstein", German language only so far - brand new) - there was some elbow rubbing in between him and Thomas Mann, mildly spoken (Mann used him as an obvious role model for one of his characters in "Der Zauberberg/Magic Mountain") and so, Mann is mentioned rather often.I will still need at least the weekend to finish but would wish to join.
I will read the German edition (I am German) - re-read after quite some years, but post in English, of course ;-)
StefanieFreigericht wrote: "I am currently reading a book about another German Nobel Prize laureate, Gerhart Hauptmann ("Wiesenstein", German language only so far - brand new) - there was some elbow rubbing in between him and..."This group read lasts until the end of April so there's no rush. It will be great to have a native German speaker (well, reader in this case) participating :)
Marina wrote: "Patrick, I love how you give us such interesting pieces of information. You seem to be quite knowledgeable in this. It will be a great pleasure to read the book piecing together all of your info an..."Ditto!
Marina wrote: "Patrick, I love how you give us such interesting pieces of information. You seem to be quite knowledgeable in this. It will be a great pleasure to read the book piecing together all of your info an..."Thank you so much! I fear that my background as a humanities teacher is showing, but if it offers some benefit, I am pleased. If I start to sound like a conceited know-it-all, humor me a bit, it's hard for me sometimes. 🙂
StefanieFreigericht wrote: "I am currently reading a book about another German Nobel Prize laureate, Gerhart Hauptmann ("Wiesenstein", German language only so far - brand new) - there was some elbow rubbing in between him and..."I love Hauptmann's plays! He is from the same period as Ibsen and Strindberg, but doesn't get the same attention in the English-speaking world despite his deserved Nobel Prize. He was extensively translated, though, and you can find plenty of his works at Project Gutenberg and the Internet Archive.
Patrick wrote: "StefanieFreigericht wrote: "I am currently reading a book about another German Nobel Prize laureate, Gerhart Hauptmann ("Wiesenstein", German language only so far - brand new) - there was some elbo..."Oh, I like plays - is there any particular one that would be good to start with?
Leslie wrote: "Patrick wrote: "StefanieFreigericht wrote: "I am currently reading a book about another German Nobel Prize laureate, Gerhart Hauptmann ("Wiesenstein", German language only so far - brand new) - the..."The Weavers (1892) is an acknowledged classic and a great place to start.
Hauptmann was also a considerable novelist.
That would be a typial school read in Germany - "The Weavers" or "The Beaver Coat" (Der Biberpelz) as plays and "Bahnwärter Thiel" as short novella (I had to check the English language wiki for translations, none for that novella mentioned last).But Hauptmann is more contradictory than Mann - while Mann left Germany during the Nazi reign for California and spoke against Hitler to his fellow countrymen, Hauptmann stayed. The literary biography on him portrays a good dose of opportunism while living in some world of his own (he was also pretty old then). Hauptmann was considered more famous when they lived, Mann is more known today.
Sure, Hauptmann's later reputation has been hurt by the fact that he did not publicly reject Hitler or Nazism. He has his unpleasant aspects by contemporary standards - a long-standing interest in eugenics, for example (not really that unusual at that time). But I was just commenting in another group, I am never surprised when authors of the past are not progressive by modern standards. Facts like that do not determine my entire assessment of them. Otherwise I'd have to toss T.S. Eliot, Ezra Pound, Céline, Wyndham Lewis, and scores of others.
I somehow agree with what you say about non-progressive views in authors of the past, Patrick. If it were possible at all (which is not) I would gladly not know anything about my favorite authors' takes on the world and on sensitive topics. I just admire their writing, I don't feel the need to know more. Althought certainly knowing more about their views (political or otherwise) is beneficial to understanding their work, too. The whole thing is quite controversial, in fact.
It is such a sensitive subject these days! Older books by definition had to have been written within the sensibilities of their times. This can be disconcerting to deal with. In another group we were discussing how suffragettes, whom of course we admire for their progressive views and for fighting for women's rights, could be very racist - many took grave exception to black men receiving the vote before white women did in the US. Ealy 19th Century British economic progressives such as William Cobbett were virulently anti-semitic.My own policy is, try to look at everything as a historian does. And never admire anyone from the past too warmly - dig deeper, and they will disappoint you.
Patrick wrote: "My own policy is, try to look at everything as a historian does. And never admire anyone from the past too warmly - dig deeper, and they will disappoint you. "This is so true.
I’m on page 301 and really enjoying it! This is my first German classic and only my second book set in Germany that has nothing to do with a World War. I would like to get a copy of a different translation just for comparison on a few things - one being the dialect comments. They seem kind of meaningless in English. I would have preferred the examples in German. Overall, though, I think the translation is good! It has a very nice flow.
Pam wrote: "I’m on page 301 and really enjoying it! This is my first German classic and only my second book set in Germany that has nothing to do with a World War. I would like to get a copy of a different tra..."The German version of "My fair Lady" has Eliza Dolittle speak in the dialect of the region of Berlin - which is insofar crap as that is NOT the way people with no education would speak...but there is no equivalent for British "public school speech" vs. Cockney.
In Germany, as in most countries, the dialects vary in melody of speech/modulation and most have some words completely of their own - travelling Germany, for instance (bread) rolls, THE German breakfast, has different names in most regions (Brötchen, Schrippen, Weck, Semmeln,....). Comment on rolls: lots of persons eat breakfast differently, like muesli, bread, nothing...but any German would expect rolls to be served in a hotel for breakfast and a huge group would prefer rolls for weekend-breakfast.
The book is set in northern Germany mostly but for the trips to the coast and Munich (southern).
In the utmost north and coastal, you would, amongst other things, expect folks to pronunce the "st" differently. Example: Normally, Germans prounounce my name like "Shtefanie" - coastal or northern would be like the English pronounciation "S-tefanie" and most other regions would mock about that. Northern pronounciation would appear to be prolonging words, talking slowly, while most southern dialects would appear to be putting all words into one - like "Don't you like this?" - "Magst du das nicht?" in Bavaria would be something like "Moagst des net?" (Sorry to my fellow countrymen, I am just trying to get closer).
It used to be considered "not proper" to talk dialect when in school, at work, "officially" etc. for quite a while, this has changed in the past few years.
Thanks Stephanie for your dialect explanation. I’m sure it’s difficult when writing a translation. I felt like the translator was giving characters British accents or, in one case, an over-the-top American southern accent. At the beginning I wasn’t sure why it was important to note how a word was pronounced. I thought he could’ve used the German word or phrase as an example, like you did. There were quite a few times that the author refers to someone speaking in Plattdeutsch, a language I’d never heard of! I thought it would have been helpful to have a footnote. I now know what it is! I didn’t realize there was so much difference in the dialects. I feel like, for a German reader, reading the dialects in German and knowing the differences in the country/region would make these parts of the book more relevant. I also didn’t realize there was a religion difference, at least in the 1800s, where the north was (still is?) more Protestant and the south more Catholic.
Plattdeutsch is "flat German" literally. I would normally use it for some dialect used (in variations) in the north. For instance, "little" in German is "klein" but in Platt, it's "lütt". "Girl" = "Mädchen" is "deern" (you have a similar non-dialect word "Dirne" which is "whore" but they derive from the same root). "What" = "was" would be "wat", so some is closer to English ;-)The religion difference exists until today. I grew up north. I finished school as one out of 64. Some 15 Catholic, 1 not christianed, rest Protestant. No other religions - small place, you would have had others rather in bigger towns, today of course that is different.
The number of those religious has changed, though: German tax system is that if you are sort of "registered" for a religion, an ADDITIONAL percentage of your income tax goes to that congregation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_... (if that congregation is accepted as a belief: being Jewish or Muslim is, Scientology is not). So many called it quits to save money (re-enter often for marriages....). And then, after unification, there were many who had never experienced Religion from former GDR where being religious was a problem (difficulty with being allowed to go to univerity, e.g..
I had sometime found this woman explaining British accents https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyyT2... and know some very different-sounding US-Speakers, too, so I just reckon this variation is pretty normal.
What the translations all probably miss it the qualities native speakers will attribute to some dialects, as in their speakers being slow or jovial or whatever....
Wow! Thanks again Stephanie for the info! Another thing I noticed about the language is that the older generation randomly interspersed French frequently in their language. Maybe that was common with the upper class at that time. It sounded pretentious to me! The later generations stopped doing that.
French was what English is today: a language that the educated class used in all countries. In the upper reaches of Russian life, for example, it was often more commonly used than Russian itself, which was considered a "peasant" language.
I'm visiting my family this weekend and will finally be able to get my copy! I'm so excited, although obviously I will need to finish the book I'm currently reading first.This discussion is going to be (and is already) extremely interesting, due to the exchange of opinions and the many pieces information provided by Patrick and Stefanie, who definitely seem to both know what they're talking about. I'm loving it!
Stefanie, thanks for the info on dialect. I do speak German but I've never been able to understand Plattdeutsch. I've once watched a TV show about that, but it was nearly incomprehensible despite its being interesting (obviously translations in Hochdeutsch were provided, and the whole show was in German).
Have just finished the first two parts of eleven, reading the Lowe-Porter version, and listening to the Woods audio. More of those later, but both do a good job.So, just over 10% in. The story is building nicely, and all's well .....
I’m almost finished with the book and still enjoying it! I am amazed that a 26 year-old had the life experiences and insight to write such a book. I hope that members won’t be discouraged by the length of the book. I’m finding it to be a very easy read and well worth the time invested.
I've started yesterday night. I didn't have much time to read yet so I'm only at the very beginning. The translation seems quite dated, but it's still enjoyable.
While working the gate tonight at a bluegrass concert, one of our attendees saw my Buddenbrooks book sitting next to the cash box and asked me if I was taking a college class! She was apparently surprised that I was reading it for fun.
There is a nice list in German language Wikipedia on which character in the book is based on which real person - only the German one, sorry https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddenb...It has photos in it with the names underneath, so this should help to get an idea on what Thomas Mann thought his characters should look like.
Stephanie - thank you.By the way, if one accesses the article, then there is a symbol, top left, which when pressed, allows a translation into Englush and many other languages!
Although there seem to be differences, and not the photos you mention. Hmm.
You mean "in other languages"? That should simply change to the English language version, not translate.I may sum up, I refer to chapter 4 in the German Wiki. Title: "Figuren des Romans" = Figures/rather: characters in the novel
each text that follows the different characters contains lots of quotes from the book and character traits taken from the book AND the real-life person. I will only add the latter.
Johann Buddenbrook der Ältere
Johann...the Elder. Real-life: Johann Siegmund Mann I, founder of the firm Mann, cf photo. The motto used in the book as the Buddenbrook motto "My son, at daytime enjoy doing business so you may sleep at night" rather has been set by him
Konsul Johann (Jean) Buddenbrook
based on: Konsul Johann Siegmund Mann jun. (1797–1863). He was the chronicler for the family in the inherited book for this. Similar situation about having a son from his first and another from his second marriage, with the second-born son, to become heir (so, if I get this right, this was shifted back one generation in the book)
Senator Thomas Buddenbrook
now, that is not in the normal text, only underneath the pic. Based on Thomas Mann's own father, Thomas Johann Heinrich Mann.
Tony Buddenbrook (married Grünlich/Permaneder)
based on Thomas Mann's aunt Elisabeth Amalie Hyppolita Mann, divorced Elfeld, divorced Haag (1838–1927), At his request, his sister Julia Mann wrote a long letter in 1897 on that aunt. Many details have been taken literally from that letter (the childhood pranks, the inclination to luxury, the bacon soup anecdote). Julia had asked her brother for discretion, as those persons still lived. The aunt had been urged into marriage by her parents, that first husband went bankrupt. At first, Elisabeth Mann - according to Viktor Mann - was "indignant" due to the book's indiscretion, but later amused and proud and would live on the be called "Tony" within the family.
Christian Buddenbrook
Based on Friedrich Wilhelm Lebrecht Mann, called "Uncle Friedel“. As reported by Klaus Mann that uncle would have been a "neurotic good-for-nothing", who "travelledthe world and complained about imaginary diseases". Friedrich Mann fought back on Oct 28 1913 against his portrayal in the novel which he considered to have hurt his honour by putting an ad in a journal in Lübeck (which exposed him to the ridicule).
Gerda
similarities to Mann's own mother Julia. Both grow up motherless and spend a few years in a boarding school in Lübeck. She too leaves the town after her husband's death. Even more semblances to a character in a Mann novela, Gerda von Rinnlingen in "Der kleine Herr Friedemann". (Little Mr. Friedemann)
Hanno
nothing in the text. But the photo within that part depicts the author himself aged 9.
Antoinette née Duchamps (Johann the Elder's second wife)
based on Catharina Mann, nee Grotjahn, Johann Siegmund Mann the Elder's wife.
Bethsy (Elisabeth) Buddenbrook (Johann the Younger's wife)
based on Elisabeth Mann nee Marty (1811–1890), wife to Konsul Siegmund Mann the Younger
Clara (the younger sister; youngest daughter to Bethsy and Johann)
based on Olga Mann, married Sievers (1846–1880). Husband Tiburtius would be Olga's husband, merchant Gustav Sievers
Stefanie, that seems like an amazing article. I will have a closer look at it soon. It needs time.I've read about 140 pages or so, and I don't want to say what I think yet, it's too early since the novel is so long - we can say I'm just at the beginning of it.
The language/dialect nuances are completely lost in the Italian translation, but I think it couldn't be otherwise - it would have been silly to translate such nuances in an Italian dialect of sorts.
I am only on page 77, but started only yesterday.Re-reading it after many many years, I was actually surprised at how "strong" the few dialect portions were - with strong I mean, it was not the easy words in it that many will understand like "I = ich" will become "ick" which remains like that in many areas, borth and Berlin
(I am from the north, but different area than Lübeck, and even though, I did not grow up with much dialect, rather overheard it occasionally with my Granny), so even for me it is not that easy with the dialect portions.
I reckon, they did it like with Ferrante where it just says "she cursed in dialect" etc. :-)
Yes, I think so, Stefanie. There is often talk about how strange someone's pronunciation is, or how someone speaks in dialect etc. I'm somewhat glad I'm not reading this in German because I would have a really hard time understanding the Northern dialect. I've never been in the North, only in Berlin, Bavaria, Trier and Saarbrücken, plus several times in Austria. I'm much more used to the Austrian dialect, which as you know is like another language if you compare it to Northern German.
hahaha, yes - my mother still cannot understand people well in the area I have been living for +15 ys (around Frankfurt/Main) ;-)
I only managed to read another 30 pages - I wonder how everybody indulges those AMOUNTS of food, did you notice?
I finished the book a few days ago but I want to wait and see what comments others have before saying too much. I hope everyone is enjoying it! It took me about 100 pages to really get into it. There was one section (starting on p. 633) that I found remarkable and a welcome break from the depressing nature of the rest of the book. Thomas picked up a book (only the chapter was mentioned, not the title) and had an epiphany after reading it. I queried the chapter name and discovered that it was from a book by German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. (I’m now interested in reading some of his works!) I found the scene to be intriguing because it was such a departure in Thomas’ traditional way of thinking. I haven’t returned the book to the library yet because I want to reread that chapter! (view spoiler)
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Which translation will you be reading? I will have to look up my copy to find out...